I think you may have reached a point where you've played enough of SI that you're a bit detached from the average player's experience. Most players aren't exclusively playing L6 adversaries, and for a great many players, one of their weaknesses is the evaluation of what to let go and when. WWB joins a small group of spirits that ask players to accept the reality of scaling strategies, and price them into hard and potentially thematic decisions as they cede lands and Dahan. Those decisions also teach players how to grow and improve with other spirits. That journey of growth is fun, and spirits that push players to grow in new directions are subtle pieces of brilliant design. I think you may have played enough that those choices are no longer interesting to you, which is fine. But I believe you've lost connection with average SI enjoyers who are still learning and growing in a variety of ways. None of this is to say your critiques are wrong. I'm simply trying to help you see your disconnect from the community at large
Pretty sure the uses section on the spirit card isn't for a strategic goal for the spirit, but to indicate what tokens you should pull out when playing in person.
Agreed. Ember-Eyed Behemoth has a similar approach with Wilds tokens. The disease slows the invaders down while the spirit slowly grows to full strength
Yeah this was a little bit of a silly argument. If the symbol wasn't there it wouldn't be a problem, but because it is, the spirit is doing something wrong?
Do we talk down trickster for not *really* being a beast spirit? The disjoint between what it is and what you'd hoped for seems like a you problem, not a them problem
I instantly gravitated towards this spirit, and I think it checks pretty much every box of what I want in a Spirit. - It has a power curve where it starts weak but grows into a powerhouse, which is what drew me to spirits like Serpent - It is a mix of water and beast, and some of my favorite spirits to play are River and Many Minds, so this feels like a hybrid of both. - The artwork and aesthetic of the spirit is just phenomenal in my opinion. Just looking at the artwork on the spirit card makes me want to pick Wounded Waters every time. I'm also a much less experienced player with way less games played than people like yourself, so the critiques you gave are valid but don't quite bother me so much. I just really love this spirit.
Really love this as an aesthetic critique. Many of the things you dislike are things that I like, which is to be expected and also particularly interesting. One criticism I really feel, though, is how the first few turns are so very curated. But I enjoy this spirit quite a lot. You say roiling and serene are too similar, I say they have a consistent and cohesive identity. I realize we're not disagreeing there and I hope anyone who sees this video also knows their differing experience is not a counterargument to any of the arguments made here.
As other said, the first argument (disesase icon) is kinda whatever. Lots of spirits use icons like that but don't really have mechanics around those tokens, they just place them. Plus it's not like it changes gameplay or anything, it's just an icon on the setup part. As for the second argument (track choice limited) i can totally get why after lots of games the first few turns can feel boring and repetitive but i could argue that most spirits, even with 2 tracks, are even worse when it comes to choices. Iirc you said Stone is one of your favorite spirits, yet it feels like it's top track every time till 3 card plays at least. Or for example River and Voices, they have such specific optimal builds that it's not even fun to play them more than a couple of times. With Waters at least you still get lots of card choices instead of double presence placement and your early game is hard cause you have limited action economy. As for the third argument (innates and healing cards), it's true that innates and even healing cards are somewhat similar, but yet again most spirits don't even have a choice like that so having more choices, even if it's not extremely relevant all the time, it feels nice. Lots of cases you actually care which healing you go for: downgrade is better against adversaries which increase health or scenarios that make invaders more resilient, beasts are better if you get specific powers or if you have other beast-themed spirits or adversaries. Again comparing it to Stone, Stone's left innate doesn't actively do anything except make you broken cause you ignore the main loss condition. And Stone's right's innate, in the games i played, is irrelevant like 90% of the time in-game and 90% of the games cause your track is so good you can just ignore mountain elements and go lots of energy and spam majors. I say this cause i think Waters is one of the best spirits from NI, since others either have a basically solved game (voices and earthquakes) and even less choices than Waters, or are straight OP (Roots and Vigil), and a personal favorite of mine (although i still like Starlight best), and i guess probably just because your playstyle is more defense-oriented from the spirits you like and versatility, you don't really like Waters, meanwhile i don't really like Stone cause it just feels like i'm cheating, i'm doing every much better than anyone else at the table and i feel like my choices don't even matter that much. Would love to hear more counterarguments :)
It would be very cool to have more "disease user" spirits. We currently only have Vengeance. His comment probably reflected this wish and was not meant as criticism of the mechanics, especially since the "uses" field has a consistent meaning across all spirits (see e.g., Trickster). I would love if WWB "used" disease more mechanistically. With this said, besides Beasts, we also only have one "mechanistic user" for each of the other land-based tokens.
I wanted a disease NI spirit and during playtesting, WWB was that spirit. However, that was many versions ago. All of the disease synergy was evaporated and now it's just a remnant of that cool concept which is why I find it disappointment. -------------- "but i could argue that most spirits, even with 2 tracks, are even worse when it comes to choices" Looking at NI spirits, I'd say only WV and WWB fall into the trap of having an optimal way of growing. Every other spirit has several viable choices while growing or placing presence from its tracks. Looking at other spirits in Base game spirits isn't relevant as the devs balance experience is growing with each subsequent release. As for your comment about Stone. While, Stone has an optimal top track build, you have other ways of playing the spirit and can have very good success. Either pure bottom track, or pivoting and doing mixed tracks. There are choices that can be made while growing. -------------- " Lots of cases you actually care which healing you go for" In my experience it doesn't matter how I heal, the game instantly becomes solved on turn 5. Since my action economy is so limited in the early game, I know I'm taking blight XYZ turns and then everything will just work out in the late game. It feels no different than DUE. The different is WWB tricks players into thinking they are solving a puzzle while DUE it's more obvious. -------------- "Again comparing it to Stone, Stone's left innate doesn't actively do anything except make you broken cause you ignore the main loss condition" Comparing Stone's left innate (or any innate) to WWBs healing mechanic doesn't make sense. WWB's healing mechanic is it's main purpose / identity. -------------- "And Stone's right's innate, in the games i played, is irrelevant like 90% of the time." The right innate is massive to playing the spirit optimally.
@@RedReVenge007 Wish i could see and play earlier versions of Waters, with more disease thematic! As for your points: - tracks: Yes for sure balancing is taking huge steps ahead each new expansion, and i sure hope they keep making fun and balanced spirits. I guess they tried the "monotrack" thing with Waters to emphasize on its lore and mechanic but probably having only 1 track AND 1 growth to choose from can be too much limiting. Although it's just for 3 turns, and usually my games last a lot longer than that. As for stone, i can't really see a scenario where full bottom track would be better than full top track, but i haven't played that much with it - healing: i mean you sure get a huge power boost after the second healing card but the games usually feels far from solved. at least at adv level 6, it still takes some brains to figure a way out. it's actually a thing i like about this spirit, the "comeback" feeling of nearly failing in the beginning but then trying your best to recover for the lost time and damage the land took. I guess this is just personal preference, since people may prefer steadily growing spirits more with less handicap in the early game. I get your pov that innates are similar in that "they solve a land" but that could be said for most majors, they just clear/solve a land most of the time. yet they still can play and feel differently. what i like about waters is that it doesn't need to rely on a major good roll since it has all the power it needs sealed away already and just needs to unlock it - stone left innate: yes but if you criticize waters for its innates, i just cited an example that for me is way worse as an innate, since it doesn't really add anything mechanically to the gameplay, it just removes. waters innates can be a bit clunky but, as a player that likes both control and offense, i find them fine. my only complain is that their last tier is usually unreachable - stone right innate: i guess i haven't played with it enough yet, but again the spirit is so strong i feel like it could win even if that space in the board was blank. maybe at very high diff it can be necessary but since the mountain elements you need are competing against the top track, i don't know how much you get to use it anyway until mid-late game (btw thanks for taking the time to reply to a random SI enjoyer, i hope i don't come as rude and that my english is not too bad XD)
@@Lagiacroid Your comment came off as someone who loves the game and wants to discuss! No hard feelings! Part of my displeasure is I know of older versions of WWB that were far more interesting. For instance: An old healing route allowed Beasts to move Disease. Then you'd do damage based on Disease in a land! Mix this with effects that allowed you to do damage whenever you move a token and you could do some wicked combos! Another version of WWB was a Pick 2 version which enabled many different build paths and options. - Stone's top track is almost always better than bottom track, but the HLS level 6 matchup (and also some 6/6 combinations such as HLS + France) get better results with pure bottom track! There are also some lines where it is correct to dip into bottom track on turn 3 or turn 5! - The process of healing is fun the first few games with it. But once I recognized the pattern, it kinda killed this mechanic for me. It made the game far too easy to solve problems. I do agree that there is an early struggle and you are behind! The heal helps you catch back up. - My criticism with Waters is that both innates feel the same, despite the whole spirit boiling down to this critical dilemma of which way to heal. For me, this huge decision fails because both heals end the same, you just kill all the invaders, but with a different sequence of actions. - You can win some games without it, but stripping the right innate would significantly reduce the power level (likely drop it into mid B tier). The right innate is a cast Down (auto land clear).
@@RedReVenge007 that version of waters sounds really fun. Let's hope for some aspect that maybe brings it back and gives the spirit more replayability!
Most of your points were things that I agree are the case but some of them I like. This is partially because in my mind I just treat WWB as a beast spirit and always go the red path. This is mostly because I very much enjoy token spirits like lure and vengeance and to me this is the perfect sea monsters spirit. As you said with the innates, each one is basically “solve whichever explored land your hand can’t solve next turn” assuming that both are able to be solved with them (and if not solve the one it can). The limited early choices don’t bug me too much as I only pick the spirit when I want to have a beast oriented game. The main thing that does bug me is the healing paths, both how similar they are as well as the theme. It healing is supposed to represent it finding a new sense of self to make peace with what has happened to it. However the options are to be a spirit of peace or a spirit of retribution and destruction. The thing is, it was already a spirit of peace before so this path is really just a return to form. You can argue that it’s more active in its new peaceful form but it’s still focused on non-violence/peace. To me it would have been more interesting if it had the options of say being a determined protector spirit vs a spirit of retribution. Or even had 3 options such as protector, vengeful, and monstrous instinct.
You get choices on both the card you gain and the elements you want to lean into during the first 3 turns (+ the card(s) you play). The single track might seem restrictive, and it certainly is compared to spirits like Starlight or Finder, but I think WWB has a lot more choices to make early than some double track spirits with "solved" early game growths like Rivers or Lightning.
Compared to spirits in JE and NI, WWB has some of the fewest choices to make. Wandering Voice being another one. Spirits from Base Game all have major design flaws, but that’s because there was so much unknown.
Yeah that's fair. Expansion spirits are usually harder to play early on. Still, choosing the right healing marker/healing card/drafted card and finding the right balance between your ability to solve problems early game and the raw late game power needed to close games is interesting to me, and I find myself radically changing the way I play the spirit depending on the board state and the enemy. For what it's worth, I get why you don't like the spirit since I thought I would dislike the single track too. Turned out to be one of my new favourite spirits!
i’m excited for this spirit honestly. i love water spirits. there is something about making due with limited options. i’d like to see an aspect ramp up the disease on the water side and give some defense on the beast side
I still like WWB but haven’t played it 30-50 times. The two healing paths are flavors of the same control/offense spirit which I think is nicely designed. One path will be more useful against specific adversaries than the other. The thing I don’t like is the restricted early play that just makes certain games impossible. If you survive until turn 5 though, you have basically won - provided you can figure out a high complexity puzzle of what to push where to trigger your downgrades/damages optimally.
On a side note, I have no idea how much stuff do you still have on your backlog, but I wonder if you'd be interested in making a video on officially posted "exploratory" changes, whether you guys you guys use those often enough and what do you think about it. I have an ulterior motive here, of course, which is to maybe feel less dirty when I think of using those. Except teleporting TS, ofc. That thing is a bit bonkers.
Imo there should be a clear distinction between the water and animal builds. And after fifth turn that gain 2 healing card, water build WWB and animal build WWB should be a completely different spirits. Actually I can endure early game boredom if fun of late game is guaranteed, that's why Serpent is one of my favorite spirits, but even in late game, WWB isn't that fun. I think WWB would be a more interesting spirit if there were two options of the second healing cards in each builds after getting the first healing card.
This is petty, but personally I wish the amazing spirit name "serene waters taste of ruin" were for something I'm likely to ever do rather than a strange edge case I'd usually avoid. "Roiling waters renew" isn't as badass but it's still awfully evocative for a decision I'd usually feel bad for making. Sometimes I sit down fully planning to mix and match for once, and then I end up not doing it bc I want to secure the win.
I think this is a lot of what I don't like about Voices. You don't have choices, and have to do the same thing for so long. With both spirits it looks like there is a lot of choices but a lot of turns will end up being the same. A big difference is that WWB starts doing the same thing, while Voices ends doing the same thing. With WWB, turn 5+ the cards that the spirit has gained will result in very different games for those turns, but the turns getting there have little choice. With Voices, playing its 4 uniques for 3 turns is better than any other 3 the spirit can do. The difference is what to do for turns 1-x to get to that point, but there aren't really choices for what the end goal is. If, like RRV, most games end turn 5 or 6, that means that most game for WWB is the same, while for Voices that's only the case when playing just the turn 3 reclaim loop.
Honestly - this is a disappointing review of the spirit, and I'm not saying that because I like the spirit but because in your own review you call out the reason you don't like it IS the way you choose to play it. In other videos where you find ways to break spirits or ways that spirits can be "optimally played" such as wandering voice or some reclaim loop spirits you point out that while there is a powerhouse way to play the spirit that it isn't always fun and that you often choose not to play it that way. But then you get to this spirit and say that you often brute force one way to play because it just fixes problems. Your review seems inconsistent with your own philosophy for the game when it comes to other spirits. The spirit is designed perfectly for the story the spirit tells. Turn 1 - you are weak and can hardly do anything. Turn 2, you can absorb some of the corruption of the island but still can barely function, you just add that one element of control to the game that very few spirits have the ability to do. Turn 3 all of a sudden you're able to gain energy and can perform multiple actions and start to accelerate in power. Turn 4 you choose to gain energy or gain plays (which depending on your cards and healing options can shunt you down a major or an innate minor build). Turn 5 you become the powerhouse of vengeance from being wounded. Compare this with someone like River - who on turn 5 is usually when you start reclaim looping (assuming you've gotten cards that feel right for a reclaim loop) or earthquake which is the turn after you blow up the board or roots where turn 5 you're usually reaching that plant flex or 4 energy major. Turn 6 and 7 for wounded waters also have meaningful choices - do you go for the flex element to help you with a major build? or do you go for the reclaim one to help you continue hitting your innates with a more minor / card play build? Most spirits by turn 6/7 your choice has very little bearing on the game there's only a few spirits where a turn 6 growth choice changes the way you've been playing the spirit or adds to a build you're currently using. They simply accelerate you down a path you've already chosen. And I think another commenter calls out perfectly one of the reasons you might dislike the spirit is because of the disconnect with the way that the majority of SI players play the game. Most people don't play level 6 adversaries 100% of the time. The game plays differently when the majority of the time you play with 3 other people against lower level adversaries or if your group prefers to play with different scenarios over different adversaries at higher levels. Solo games are wildly different than multiplayer ones. Higher difficulty games are wildly different than lower difficulty games. Scenario games are wildly different than non-scenario games. And the fun found in playing spirits comes from their versatility at all levels of play - not just at the highest levels of play. Wounded waters plays very differently into russia 3 than it does russia 6. Wildly different build choices for england 4 vs england 5 or hapsburg 3 vs hapsburg 4. The utility you bring to 4-5 player games as wounded waters is a very different experience than 1 or 2 spirit game. If you're judging this spirit based on how it plays in level six solo games - your review is 100% accurate though. There is basically one route that you need to go to win and even variations to that route only provide minor cosmetic differences to the method you play. (Granted that is no different than stone play or river play or lightning play where the mechanics of the spirit massively influence the style in which it plays the game. They break themselves on your back, you reclaim loop for massive flooding, you max innate to blow up buildings repeatedly. Any changes to those styles are cosmetic at best but ultimately boil down to the core mechanic of the spirit) But the spirit wasn't designed to be played exclusively versus high level adversaries - nor is that how spirit island is designed to be played in general and of the dozens and dozens of videos i've watched of yours this is the first time your review of something seems to have been clouded by the way you typically play. Normally you're more understanding of the variation in play that comes from different levels, and consequently the variation with which every spirit can be played. This spirit it is just easier to feel that variation at the various levels than most. Also if you play any spirit 50 times in rapid succession - the first 3 turns will always feel boring, so give yourself some grace there. You play a lot of spirit island so there's going to be some boredom that accompanies low-choice spirits in the early game if you play them a lot in quick succession only because you've seen the first few turns of the game over and over and over again. If you only play once every few weeks - that early game won't feel boring even if you make the same choices every time.
I like Wounded Waters. It trades off its growth choices for tons choices in terms of all the packets and targeting it has. It plays differently, which I like. Also T3 and T4 (reclaim turn), should probably be Bloodwater + Wrack with Pain, as they have both water and animal, letting you trigger both sides of your innates. Play either of your animal or water unique card on 1 or your drawn card. I prefer animal, but water can be fine too. Hitting both tier 1s of innates and a tier 2 of choice 2 turns running is very impactful, even vs L6 colonizers. This bridges you until you get your turn 5 innate (Roiling is quite strong!).
