Squat Form: Wide Stance vs. Narrow, High Bar vs. Low Bar 

Stacci Guma #Quadkiller

Yes, that is my general prescription. Go wide enough that your knees don't cave and you can still hit depth. Low bar. I recommend doing GPP 1-2x per week based on your training advancement. That is a good time to work on mobility. You can read about my programs here: bit.ly/ptwebook

That's pretty tall my man! I can't say for sure whether it is form or weakness because I can't see you squatting from here. It could be either, but most likely it is form.

Even though I've heard this explanation being mentioned elsewhere as well, I still don't quite understand. The moment arm hasn't been reduced because your femur is still the same length no matter how you rotate it. Just because your viewing it from the side and it looks shorter doesn't mean the moment arm has been reduced. Moment arm is still the same length when viewed from the top. After having a think about it, the only thing I can think of how widening your stance would make it easier is you require less distance slightly in the vertical direction to hit depth as you widen your stance (distance between knee and hip in the vertical direction reduced).

Because the gluteal complex and quads are still acting upon the knee joint and hips in the sagital plane. The bar is a fixed load in this plane. Decreasing the horizontal distance from the bar to the hip and knee joint brings the load and the joint closer. Even though the actual femur length has not changed the relative length to the joints is decreased. Even when viewed from the top you will see the length of the femur is the same but then measure the distance from the knee to bar, then bar to the hip. It is decreased relative to the length of the femur.

Because the thighs are "artificially" shortened and are closer to being directly under the the bar rather then in front of the bar like in a front squat. this puts the hips closer to the bar, reducing the moment arm length that's acting on them.

Inspir3d We are 3 years later. How did it go? Still low barr squatting?

6 years later??

@@CasaNovaah 6 years later i've moved on to front squats and olympic lifting

I'm in the exact same boat as you, whenever I fail a max squat its because my back can't extend the weight back up, not that my quads are maxed out. This has always been weird to me because I have a very strong lower back and legs but even with lightweight my body shape doesn't allow me to bend over while squatting

I can't guess what the problem is from some lines of text. I'd have to actually see you squat. Usually when people "shoot their hips up" it is because they're trying to be too upright on the way down and don't understand that you're actually stronger when you're a bit bent over. The knees in issue is a completely different thing.

It depends on the degree of knee cave. Even the best olympic lifters in the world, those who get gold medals etc, have a bit of knee cave sometimes. But, if you're full on caving in every rep, you're likely to develop tendonitis and there is potential to damage the knee ligaments. It is a habit that should be fixed.

You get strongest with the form you train most often. You're just unadapted to using a wide stance. Most people lift less the first time they try a new technique.

+Isaac Campos I guess it would be momentum.

As long as they have full range of motion, no form errors, and they are consistent, I don't really care. For an MMA fighter, it doesn't even matter. The difference between the type of squats is pretty trivial. They need to be focusing on technique and sports skills more than what lifting program they do. That's secondary. I lift in an MMA gym and I see pro UFC fighters doing P90X sometimes. Obviously, that isn't optimal, but it just goes to show... put your focus on what matters most: your sport.

He can. There is no reason he can't do that. But it's just like the front squat. There is a point of diminishing returns. The farther forward the knees go, the longer the range of motion is and the more the leverage is shifted to the quads. If being completely upright with a lot of knee travel was conducive to a big squat, we'd all do front squats at meets since they are the most upright with the most forward knee travel. The truth is that you're stronger with less forward knee travel, a shorter range of motion, and more of the leverage being shifted to the bigger posterior chain which is made up of glutes, hammies, low back, adductors vs. just the quads.

PowerliftingToWin Thanks A LOT for the very clear answer ! I've always been told that if you had longer femurs you just had to bring the knees forward more... So even if the longer legs guy manages to have the bar in the alignement of the mid foot balance point by having more knee travel, he would still be disadvantaged by longer ROM (and a longer rom for someone with long femurs is I guess not what you want lol) and less advantageous leverages (just saying that to clarifying the thing in my head) However by having more knees travel he would have his hips closer to the bar I guess (but he could do so by going wider, without the disadvantages ) Does it remains true for everybody, like "quads dominants lifters" like Jay nera (that's how he calls himself^^) or derek kendall (I mean he can front squat 800lbs belt only and doesn't seem to have short legs to me^^) I've always listenned to dan green when he said to squat "down" and not "back" but your well developped answer/video makes more sense. (even if it's not really contradictory) Once again, thanks a lot for those very informatives videos, and excuse me for my bad english i'm europeen I have a last question, would you say that's staying upright is not the main thing that you should look up for on the squat ? I mean people tend to say that it's THE most important thing

I think what you want with the squat is balance. We have two extremes: 100% bolt upright olympic style squat. We know that most people don't lift the most with this style. However, we also have the Westside style of squat with a VERY wide stance and ZERO knee travel whatsoever. We also know that most people don't lift the most with this style. What is the common denominator? They're both very extreme. In my opinion, you need to manipulate your personal leverages so that you are relatively upright and you have a moderate amount of knee travel. For some people, that can be achieved with a narrower stance. For others, especially longer femured lifters, they basically have to stand wider or they're too bent over unless the knees come way forward. We don't want them to be extremely bent over and we don't want extreme forward knees either. We want to avoid the extremes through leverage manipulation. We want a nice balanced squat that uses all the musculature available and relatively evenly. Yes, it is true that some people with overdeveloped quads, or posterior chains, are going to be better with those extreme styles. But that is due to specificity of training rather than inherent biomechanical advantages, IMO. If all you ever do is train your quads, of course you're going to be a better narrow squatter. Of course you're going to do better with more forward knees. That's how you've trained it! However, I think your ultimate potential is lower than it would be if you actually used a more moderate technique. I hope that helps and I hope that makes sense. This is a bit of complex topic to be discussing in RU-vid comments : ).

PowerliftingToWin Thanks a lot for taking from your time to answer my question man, it's really really appreciated. That helped a lot and makes a lot of sense, really changed my vision, and I really like the way you approach thing with a really realistic vision, no lie no bullshit no extremism approach, good level-headed guy (hope that makes sense I translated it from my language lol..) Will be on your forum, it will be easier to talk about topics like that, thanks again.

No problem my friend! Thanks for the kind words and I look forward to future discussions with you on the forums.

It does occasionally happen. High bar tends to produce longer moments at the knee and shorter moments on the lower back. So, if your knee extensors were extremely strong compared to your back and hips, it can happen.

PowerliftingToWin this could explain why I highbar more comfortable and when i try low bar my lower back gets fatigue quick,,,because it is weaker,...knee extensors are stronger. do you have a video on how to be in a more advantageous position for conventional deadlift?

Jo Hannes if you lean forward on high bar the bar won’t be over mid foot causing you to become imbalanced

No when i shift my hips even more back, i can lean forward on the high bar squat

Then you're doing "good mornings".