The bike companies make it so hard to figure out the differences between their own products at times. It’s strange that they are so bad at explaining their products. Thanks for this vid. You did a Lot of research. Thank you.
Totally correct. It's insane how these bike product manufacturers word that stuff. It sometimes seems like they don't WANT us to actually learn anything specific about the products. It's generalized, enigmatic, as if they're trying to hide some secret technology. Again I certainly agree w/you and maybe some consumer input/feedback will change that in the future. Almost all the companies seem to do that too that's what's so strange about it. "..[I]t's really good for THIS... but it also handles great for THAT too..." ~JSV
I've had Sram X0, then on my next bike I had Sram Guide R, then I switched to Shimano XT M8020, and I'm never going back to Sram... Main difference for me - the shimano brakes require sooo much less force on the lever. For short descends it's negligible, but for 30-40 minute descends the shimanos win, no arm pump at all. And easier to bleed.
@@jmanswat2457 i find there is a world of difference between the original guide r and much newer g2's or code. the latest shimano are also closer to how these feel (less on/off, so more lever force required). i do prefer bleeding with mineral oil by a lot though...
Ditto. Sram's on my hardtail screech when it's wet, destroy my confidence do not stop me in time when it gets really quick. Shimano brakes just work and imho are really good across the entire Deore range. Would never even consider Sram for stopping duties.
Same Experience... I was riding 4 years on Magura MT3 then switch to Shimano XT for 2 years and now I have Sram ULT second year .. and I would say Shimano XT were best of them... consistent performance all way down all day long, bleeding them is much more easy, and there was no need to adjust after changing of pads (brand pads) and most of all when you hit them they brake instantly... Sram ULT have always some delay and is even changing during the day (my filling :) )
He is a SRAM fan because it's a US brand.... Whining about the free stroke screw at Saint, you set it once and that's it. You not touching it ever after its set. .. Then the weight trick he did here. Very obvious
You know shit brakes honestly can make you a better rider. I fell into the trope of broke mechanic that let his bike fall into moderate disrepair. Don't know what happened but my brakes started squealing like an SOB and lost stopping power and I realized (since I could hear them squeal constantly) that I stopped relying on them as much and you can corner more speed than you think, given the form is there.
@@WorldwideCyclery yeah that would be an awesome video to watch on lock down. I have magura mt5's and curious about modulation comparison. What about a video about the differences in the actual brake disc's?
I can’t stand that spongey “modulation” feel in brakes. Probably from all my years of riding BMX. I don’t think I’ll ever feel comfortable with a spongey feeling brake.
@@michaelbarrett6558 I was always a Shimano person. Most of that was experience with lesser expensive models though. Shimano rule in that territory for value, response, and feel. I now have the Code RSC brakes on my carbon Stumpjumper and I'm sUPeR impressed! Completely changed my opinion of SRAM. Very tight stopping power, just enough hint of modulation, shows you what the higher price tag can do w/that brand. I still think Shimano are way better for inexpensive brakes though. ~JSV
@@michaelbarrett6558 That just may be the case. Before these RSC's I WAS going to try Magura but I seriously have no desire for anything better. I can see why you'd use them on everything. I'll see how these hold up this summer. It's amazing how they seem like that closest thing to the 'feel' right between both highly reactive & modulated styles. I have a 200mm rotor up front and a 180 in back on that bike. ~JSV
The Code here is that you cant rely on Guide's to make sure that the trail is Level, but If you have a Saint, all is well n good and you can have some Hope. :)
I just switched to XTR 4 pistons and I am 250+ fast and on an ebike and there is no comparison in power and the XTRs blow away the SRAM codes and are supposed to have close to the same power as the Saints and all I know is do not want or need any more power and with SRAM I was begging for more power.
Get budget brakes (e.g. MT400 from Shimano), no fear of going OTB if there is no braking power to begin with. Also amazing "modulation" when there is no final stopping point for the brake.
MT400s are definitely nothing special, I just bought a set of XT rotors (with a 203 upgrade up front) and metallic pads to try to get some more out of them. Probably going to go with MT520 4 pots or maybe even SLX or Zee 4 pots eventually.
With shimano brakes I’ve found them work better with aftermarket pads, shimano pads I just could never get a long with. Still not tried the ceramic pads from disco brakes
It is though. Without people putting preference for one or the other you will never see any improvements. Competiton makes better products for us consumers.
I just have to get it close enough to filled with Shimano brakes. Lately I’ve been too lazy to even bother topping it off after shortening and they feel perfect.
Easy but messy. As I wrote above, i'm a recent SRAM convert. I bought the SRAM Pro-bleed kit. Has everything and the kitchen sink thrown in, unlike the cheap over priced shimano bleed kits that are nothing but fiddly. The SRAM bleed system is insanely good. Like, no spill good. And being a close system, there is ZERO doubt that you have a good bleed.
Yep, Shimano are so easy. Hose on, screw in the funnel, crack the bleed plug, push (harmless mineral) oil through, job done. SRAM? I have the pro kit, but only 2 hands! And the air bubbles you can generate. And don't get the fluid on your skin or paint. Lock it all up and they still feel the same and they are still noisy. I do like the Code RSC's and don't feel the need to change, they are just a bit agricultural compared to shimano. A bit like comparing a Kawasaki to a Honda?
Evertb1 Not just you... I ran both, worked on both and I really prefer Shimano‘s no-nonsense easy bleed and the mineral oil. On my own bikes, Shimano only... I don’t like SRAM’s ‘great modulation a.k.a. not enough braking power’ and the ergonomics of their levers.
I've ridden both pretty heavily. SRAM tended to fade alarmingly quickly (even when new). Shimano is a bit abrupt at first but holds well on longer descents. I rode my buddy's bike down a short run, which had TRP brakes, and I fell in love... Edit: I still ride Shimano brakes. They’ve been reliable and metallic pads are the way to go. I’ve seen several people struggle with SRAM unreliability…
I have the Shimano xtr trail brakes on my hardtail. And Shimano zee on my full suspension bike. the xtr unbelievable stoping power never ever had brakes like them.
Andrew Perry True, this happened to me with my guide r’s. Got them replaced for free, but later ditched them for shimano. Best choice ever. I hate that most companies come stock with SRAM because shimano is much better for the price.
Yes! I love how the SRAMs feel but the piston stick is a no go for me. What's maddening is that it's been going on for years regardless of the 'updates' they've done to address the issue.
What is happening exactly. Are the pistons expanding and jamming due to bad heat dissipation. I'm running guide RE at the moment, and am looking to upgrade, either to g2 RSC's or xt's. My last xt's (older models) were way too all or nothing. But haven't tried new xt's yet, I have tried the RSC's and liked them.
Mike E What’s happening is there’s a plunger inside the lever that swells in hot conditions, which is why if you get it warrantied, they’ll only send the lever. It still happens on modern SRAM brakes and it is a pain to fix on your own.
I use sram on my mtb and Shimano on my roadie. I like the gradual modulation when going down trails, but often times appreciate the responsiveness of Shimano on the road dodging cars and oblivious people on paved trails.
Couple things. 1: Jeff can shred! Look at him go! 2: Love SRAM's moooooooooodulation! 3: 3:01 gave me all sorts of PTSD! That sound you make before you know its gonna hurt!
I recently replaced my Sram Code REs with whimano SLX 4 piston brakes and they're so much better. No spongyness and the modulation is also easy to handle.
I have a pair of old Codes (from Avid era) and made a small rides with SLX´s, XT´s and so on... I like how they feel powerfull, but i honestly dont think they provide the same control. IF the prices are similar these days, i probally stay with Codes.
@@thelongestnameinthecomment9677 cod rsc's are terrible. They're bad enough to legit make the tech feel alot techier on the same bike in steep sections.
Delectably Diabolical More like you just suck at controlling modulation. I have the RSCs and SLX brakes and they’re equally capable of you don’t suck. Granted the Shimano are easier to throw yourself over the bars with if you’re not careful.
@@shoeonhead Nah, they're horrid. I've had them completely fail on Deer Valley's enduro track. Twice in the same day actually. Never had that with Shimano. If you don't ride actual tech you don't know what I'm talking about.
Excellent video, I've used SRAM Code, Level and Guide recently as well as Shimano SLX, XT and now Zee on my Specialized Enduro. For me it's the Shimano brakes - less arm pump, nicer bite, seems like more power also. The only other brake I've used that seems to match the ferocity of the Zee's is the Hope V4 brakes (which are also phenomenal - but rather pricey). I got my Zee's for £140 total front and rear and I couldn't be happier with them
Great video and it's true. I bought a sram equipped bike as wanted something different. The brakes I just hated, took back to the bike shop to get re-bled as heaps of people say really hard to setup good compared to Shimano. But when tested by several people they were better than normal for sram. I eventually have up after many months and bought Shimano 2 piston XTR and so so happy. Bike actually stops now. Imagine what the 4 piston would do. Sold sram on line fast so somebody likes them. Shimano feel like powerful sport brakes and not soft soggy v-brakes
Why would you ever buy a crappier product because you want something different? Seems like you set yourself up to lose on that one big time.. always Shimano… always
@@Smegma_pirate I just wanted to try something different. Always had 3x or 2x then this my first 1x Wanted the bike, not the groupset, but thought worth a try. Didn't know I'd hate it, otherwise wouldn't have bought. Many like sram. Many don't. Some don't care. I'll know now I hate it. My latest bike is back to Shimano.
4:50 You mention rotor size, I dont know if its different on mountain bikes, but disc beakes on cars (motorsport) have larger rotors for more thermal handling, not more stopping power. For example, get a cheap basic shitbox car, and stomp the brakes, even the smallest car brakes are capable of locking up, and exceeding the grip of the tyres. So its no problem with stopping power of small brakes. But go tarmac rally that same car for example, and you will VERY quickly exceed the thermal capacity of the braking system. This is why motorsport generally use bigger brakes. To overcome the greater heat.
I'm confused by the Phillip's head reach adjustment. I work on Shimano hydro brakes all the time and have only ever used the 2mm hex fitting (tucked on the back side of the lever) to adjust for reach/actuation. Is that Phillips screw only on Saints? Maybe I've just never worked on Saints?
That screw is for free stroke adjust, or how close the pads sit to the rotor when retracted. This is the equivalent of adjusting cable tension on cable brakes. The screw not doing anything is a common misconception: you first measure your reach, adjust the free stroke screw (which also changes your reach), then use the reach adjustment to correct reach back to what you measured before. You won't notice much free stroke difference before correcting the reach, but will notice it after.
my Giant Trance came with non-series 4 piston MT-520's that are technically a trail brake but use Saint/Zee pads, not sure if all of Shimano's 4 piston brakes use the same pads though?
I rock the MT-520's as well. all the same tech as the big expensive boys, in a much cheaper package. Dang good brake for sure. Do note if you want to rock finned pads on them you will have to notch to trailing edge of the fin (side closest to the hose fitting). But non finned pads are identical to the Saint/Zee 4 piston pads.
I've heard those MT-520s are great for the price, looking to throw a set on my Trance (I got the aluminum frame, so only MT-400 2 pots, which are about as weak as the Tektros on my hardtail).
loved that comedy sketch, especially when the philips head screw driver was mentioned. when I first got some XT's i said "what the hell, a screw driver!!" hahaha!!
@@kevinfairclough4619 The problem is that its another tool you need to take. It would be much more convenient and practical if it was an allen head, plus it would look way better.
Yeah I bought an XTR front brake, and there's no contact point adjustment, like the screw never did anything. Have an Avid Elixer rear brake brake which was way cheaper. Overall you're probably right. Pretty happy with the setup now, got the sponge in the back, and the power in the front. Was kind of surprised with the XTR it was expensive, and pretty basic.
Shimano Saints are for sure the best brakes of all time. Huge power, low profile levers, great adjustability, fantastic cooling, look incredible, and perhaps most importantly, easiest brakes to service, and bleed.
It’s takes me 5 seconds to change the pads on my Shimano. Started a week ago changing guide R’s. Still waiting for parts because the damn thing is stuck
I prefer that more “Responsive” shimano brakes. Locking out brakes shows that you are still not familiar to the handling of the bike. Spongey brakes will have problems when applying emergency brakes especially riding in the city.
Me too--I have an inexpensive Shimano hydro on my hardtail and after riding w/them for long enough you start to get the FEEL for that brake, and you CAN create a modulation with your hand/grip if you're used to Shimano. I feel a more direct control over the bike. Always feel better with snappy brake response. When disc (mechanical) was just making it's way onto mountain bikes, all ANYBODY wanted was super firm "stop-short" brake action. I'm getting a Stumpjumper and that comes w/the Srams so if I can't get used to those I'll switch back to Shimano. oH g-WiZ $$$😢 ~JSV
I do not understand why the hell would anyone wanted to have rear brake on the left side. It makes no sense since rear mech shifter is on the right side. For that reason it is perfectly logical to have both rear related controls on the right side. And fork lockout (or front mech shifter) as a frot related controls, both belong to the left side. And being from Moto world or Australia is no excuse for a stupid idea😡
I could never get rid of the bad taste SRAM left in my mouth. With them not weighing up to Shimano 5ish years ago and the whole mechanism locking in the lever (the shop I worked at at the time kept 5 Guide R levers on hand since we were warrantying and replacing so many), which didn't infrequently throw people OTB. I do agree with the opinion that mostly XT(R) are too touchy (haven't tried the 4 pots yet) and it's why I go with Zees instead, more modulation. Also spoke with a Shimano rep at one point, turns out the XT 4 pots are just repainted Zee pistons. Thought that was interesting. I also knew some of the guys in my shop (almost entirely fans of Shimano for brakes) would do different lever piston combos to play with brake feel and modulation.
@AG Coarseman I take it you did read the comment, time on motorbikes gets you used to the brake being on the right. I'm not sure where wafflemag is from but here in the UK all bikes have the front brake on the right. I was used to the brake being on the right before i got on a motorbike. In fact does that left front brake thing ever catch folks out when then jumping on motorbikes???But shit, i can sure see it being a nightmare to ride with your brake the opposite way to what you are used to. making a hey look I'm cool moment into an over the bars face plant.
Not only is the information presented here really well here, but the comedy and fun watching make this my favorite channel to seek equipment intel and reviews. You all must have a blast making this stuff yet you fill it with such solid information. Keep up the great work and you said it best .... it will break down to feel and preference. A rider will adjust to either in time. Both are great brakes and solid companies.
I think both are great. At first I thought sram was a lot worse but I was comparing low end sram to high end shimano and now I realize that along as you have high end ones they both feel amazing.
Sorry, late to the party. Good, fun video as always. Thanks. But I'd like to add one of the biggest downsides to Shimano brakes you didn't mention... The wandering bite point. In cold weather, even with perfectly bled brakes it happens. Happened on my Saints and XTs. Worse in the rear. Probably due to the mineral oil getting thicker in cold weather and not allowing the pistons to retract fully prior to the next quick lever throw. Also, Shimano pads rattle. On my DH rig with finned pads the Saints always had me thinking I had a loose headset. Even without finned pads they rattle bad. Shimano's stopping power and easy bleeds are great but those last two issues have me moving over to SRAM brakes and weeding out my Shimano stock - and I'm pretty happy so far.
@Worldwide Cyclery . Do SRAM Level TL brakes have reach adjust? I've looked online and some sources say no and some say yes. If so how is this achieved?
I run the cheapest shimano brakes bl m500 I think and they accually work surprisingly well for the price, I wouldn’t mind testing sram tho and try with the modulation difference but im allways a fan for the shimano feel
personally this sounds too politically correct. A funnel bleed (Shimano, Magura, etc.) is hands down much easier and cleaner to do than bleeding with syringes (SRAM). I know these guys know their stuff, but it comes off as protecting brands instead of just being bold. IMHO.
Modulation was what I was after. It’s not cool locking up the front wheel on gravel trails even with light touch. Going to be changing out breaks looking for “free stroke.”
Want excellent stopping power with great modulation? Want the light weight and less cost of Sram, but without having to worry about that caustic fluid ruining the paint on your expensive-ass MTB? Want brakes that also look cool AF? Then buy Magura.
Nice detailed review of your opinion but very biased. You heavily down played the advantages of Shimano brakes like ease of maintenance and outright stopping power. Often with shimano brakes all you need to do is screw on the Lever cup, pour in a bit of oil and pump the brake a few times to disperse any bubbles from the system.
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Absolutely perfect video! Enough detail and content, well-paced, and not too long! And, your comparisons between the competing models is incredibly helpful! The comments about the changes in SRAM is reassuring, too.
Sram have much better modulation with less power but the brake lines are cheap both of my code r's brake lines need to be replaced. Back split open in the middle on a straight section and front line split 10" from the lever but just outside not leaking yet after not even a month of riding the park. I've had some inconsistent braking with shimano's but never had a line fail.
SRAM guy: I need more modulation Shimano guy: git gud or git REKT my son I have XT 4pot. Shimano Superior race 🤘😎 (Unless you run Code RSC, then I forgive you)
Shimano's bleed, maintenance is soooo much easier and works every time. Just like on a car's brake system. Bleeding SRAM brakes with syringes and such is a real mess. Staying Shimano for that reason alone.
I have Zee's on my downhill and they're awesome, I always rave about them when anyone asks. My enduro bike has Guide RSC's and although they're my second choice, I couldn't justify upgrading to a second set of Zee's. I find my Guides to be a lot more resilient too, way less maintenance and more reliable.
Gears sram brake shimano... Ask a race driver if he wants firm hard brakes or soft brakes.. U know the hard brakes that bites is the better one, Just learn to controll them..
I used to have sram ultimate brakes on my bike and they are great!! I now have XTR race brakes on my bike and my wife has XTR trail brakes on hers. My favorite of all are the XTR trail.
Been running (and constantly having to fix) a pair of sram db5's for a while.. but i'm finally swapping them out for a pair of xtr 4 pots. The bike's currently in the lbs getting them fitted!
We have two bikes, one with a magura and the other with a shimano. I do the dirty job with the oils, so I dont mind that its a mineral oil. Shimano one is a M446 and its works great. The other is a Magura MT2 with...some uniqueness ^^ For me Shimano is the winner.
14:59 my Avid XO trail from 2013 i think have this problem its just a cramp sometimes, but If it works its fine. And to those brakes, i think there fine, by modern standards there have a lack of braking power. There are enough aftermarket options for brakepads, the trickstuff power pads work rly good and give those brakes more power, but there wear down pretty fast, at least with me.
