Archer being Future Guy makes more sense if you view it not as him turning heel, but rather as him seeing some other shenanigans going on with the timeline and stepping in to ensure that things happened the way history recorded them happening, by becoming the person in the history books. Wouldn't be the first time a Star Trek captain did it (cough Ben Sisko/Gabriel Bell cough).
I want the Temporal wars to remain mostly unexplored. I like just tidbits here and there but I dont want a full exploration. The Borg were menacing when they were mostly unknown. But when they got overused, their menace evaporated. I fear the same for the Temporal Wars
Keeping it mysterious makes it more interesting. Two of my favorite Star Trek characters are Guinan and Garak, primarily because they remain so mysterious.
I think it's fairly simple what Future Archer's motives were. If you want to ensure stability in the most critical time in galactic history, you have to know the players. Archer knew himself and his crew, making it easy to put bread crumbs out and manipulate his past self into correcting the problems before they become problems. It's a lot like how Q would act antagonistically only to help Picard and his crew understand deeper aspects of situations. And let's not forget that Enterprise is actually key to the Star Trek multiverse, at least in the eyes of Doug Drexler(Mr. "Trip's not dead!"). And, if Future Archer's acting to keep the timelines right, encouraging himself to fake Trip's death hardly seems like a leap... Not even a quantum one.
When it comes to time travel, I agree with the legend that is chief of operations on Deep Space Nine Miles O'Brien's opinion 'I hate Temporal Mechanics'
Great recap gang 🖖 i imagine the temporal cold was as not having one canon story, the timeline was rewritten so many times by so many factions that only the surrounding events can be considered definitely canon
Ah i was wondering when we would examine more of this subject Wait. Wouldn't it be wild if Discovery finds out the answer about Archer's "Timey-Wimey-Wibbly-Wobbly" ?
I hear and can understand some comments about not making a temporal wars series but if you take something like Loki and use it as a means to bring all Star Trek series together in some way... that could actually be pretty cool if pulled off in the right way.
Would be interesting to see Star Trek Online's battles against Noye as a legitimate and canon event. Even if it's a cameo the ISS Enterprise F would also be fun to see. but as a separate reality.
Good video, Sean, especially considering how speculative a "we now know" episode like this had to be. One small correction: Pike, in the SNW episode "Strange New Worlds", refers to the Second Civil War, not the Second War of Independence. "No relation."
Eh..... Enterpise - J was from timeline in which Archer failed to destroy Spheres and their Bulders has attacked Federation in 26th century. Later Star Trek Online adapted that storyline and moved it into prime timeline (until Picard reshuffled entire game into alternate universe). But original idea was that Archer by destroying Delphic Expanse anomaly, removed battle of Procyon-V from history and by thus making big question mark after question: did Enterpise - J really existing in prime timeline?
Okay, i try to answer your question as best I can. The Universe Class Enterprise-J we saw in ST:ENT was as you noted a product of an alternate timeline. In that timeline the transformed space of the Sphere Builders had consumed half the Milky Way. Countless planets would have been rendered uninhabitable. The sheer size of the Enterprise-J was probably because in addition to its role as a Federation starship it was also serving as something of an Ark. in the Prime timeline, that transformed space doesn’t exist and thus the need for people to relocate to starships doesn’t exist either. I’m sure by the 26th century there is a Federation starship called the Enterprise with the registry of “NCC-1701-J”. It however would look nothing like the Universe Class monstrosity we have seen.
@@DLordSadow Or is still there but not for the purpose the original was built for, and is probably named Voyager I in Prime. We saw that with the delayed cascade ability that Voyager invented while in the Delta Quadrant. Anyway, we have a new enemy at Procyon V in the Krenim, and they are core to that history. The Sphere Builders may not be a key part of those events going forwards as a result, but still have to happen. The Annorax vs Voyager hints at that history, and also could show a possibility that both ships will fight again in an eternal fight. That fight should happen at Procyon V in the time fight that happens there. We need to see that fight when we get there, if only to see what changed from Archer's time. These episodes in the past in these shows are showing the differences are seeding all the players that will have stakes in that conflict, and all cycle to Procyon V in a pitched battle. It is serving as a large scale failsafe fixed point event for any discrepancies in the timelines of the galaxy, like how the Vulcan first contact event ends all those changes affecting Earth's past.
I do love how Star Trek Online has expanded and explored the temporal wars with including the Krenium and showcasing the full battle of Procyon 5 (which happens bc the sphere builders keep trying again and again to complete their objectives)
Carls trans-dimensional capabilities or his connection to the mirror universe were obvious or at least implied since Enterprise In a Mirror, Darkly. The black and white cannon firing sailing ship is the same that can be seen through Carl in City on the edge of forever. And also Spock assumes that it is "a gateway to other times and dimensions"
Hey Sean. Thank you for this update. Do you think you and your team can build a kind of a "graphic presentation" or a "chart" who could help us to understand more this "temporal Cold War". Could be great to understand more what we know. Thanks
I'm starting to feel like the current writers of Star Trek played Star Trek Online, because they did their own take on the Temporal Wars and it involved a lot of the elements mentioned in this video. Including the Na'Khul and the Sphere Builders, the Khrenemi, and Enterprise-J. The only difference was that the storyline was created before Discovery was even an idea.
I think the Q left because Humanity failed. The interest Q de Lancie took always seemed to be him steering us to the frontier after the final: Time. Achieving mastery over space was nigh, time was next, and we'd become a people that actually registered on the Q's radar if not beginning our road to being like them. But the temporal wars proved we were as savage and hopeless as the Q always accused us of, that we'd regressed, and so they lost interest.
That was really useful. I got a headache yesterday trying to figure out the temporal wars and now I will be returning to this video many times to straighten my head out. Thanks.
The cool thing about the Temporal Wars can be made into a relevant ok hotline in literally any Star Trek show or episode. It's not limited to the Enterprise era by definition.
I believe Spock has died nearly as many times as Kirk has. Also it really depends on what you consider “died” Spock Yesteryear: TAS Wrath of Khan Star Trek Beyond Kirk Generations - either one or two times Star Trek into Darkness Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow-SNW Am I missing any?
@@darthwiizius I think there’s a lot of those type of instances for pretty much every crewmember. I believe in TOS every crewmember “died” except for Spock although I guess you could consider Spock’s brain kind of dead!
The Temporal Cold War was one of the most interesting aspects of Star Trek, and it deserved more attention. A missed chance was to have drawn in the Q and the Prophets during the Cold War. It might've also involved the Emissary.
"Well that's about... We will mention it later. That both did and didn't happen later. We'll talk about that later..." Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing
My spin on "Seán doing his own timey wimey wibbly wobbly thing" is that he does not say that he will do it later in this episode (or i missed him mentioning it) but could refer to later episodes where he will talk about what he missed talking about in this episode.
I remember a time when people complained about there being "too much time travel in Star Trek" back in the 90s, I wish for those days again, because now it's just a big headache with all the future people governing the past because wars in time cause stuff and it didn't happen anyway becuase things were fixed so that it all worked out in the end but then more happened because someone else wibblywobbly'd about and, ugh, head hurts now.................
In STO it's a more multilateral effort. From 25th century onward due to the Iconian time travel event and time travel as a weapon regulation is required. But I don't see the time travel ban being possible. Especially with accidental travel is still a thing. Oh and events in STO's mirror Borg storyline alters a good part of the Nakhul faction to be a small faction in the temporal war.
So, one of my biggest gripes with Disco going to the 32nd Century was that we knew Starfleet had time ships long before that, like the Relativity. It made the whole "Burn" seem like an easy fix...go back before it, tell everyone to power down their warp cores, no problem. But, I'm beginning to come around to the idea that after the Temporal Wars, some sort of moratorium exists on time travel. I'm not sure what sort of enforcement of this moratorium might be...maybe a Krenim-esque erasure of your species from the timeline...or maybe there was so much time travel and disruption to spacetime that any more meddling risks unravelling all of existence, so no one does it? If the temporal wars were so terrible, I can get behind the idea of thr Federation and others in the galaxy supressing all knowledge of the science behind it. Maybe Starfleet Academy, the show, can explain it.
My personal headcanon is that after/during the temporal wars, the Klingons became the ones to enforce the accords. This would play into the unusually strong relationship Klingon culture has with time (Borath for example) and explain why we haven't seen them in the post-burn time period.
I find the ban on time travel strange based on the fact that Star Trek crews accidentally time travel all the time, plus it's as easy as slingshotting around the Sun. There are clearly many factions in the 32nd Century (e.g. Emerald Chain) so why would they abide by a weak Starfleet's time travel ban? And there must be numerous uncontacted civilisations unaware of the ban so who is stopping them from temporal shenanigans? As suggested, some horrific damage to the very fabric of spacetime might be enough to dissuade time travel, but otherwise once time travel tech is invented it can't simply be uninvented and ignored. (I try to not think about this plot element though as I do love Discovery and am glad the show found its feet in the 32nd Century setting)
@CosmicCorviknight the implication is its not just a starfleet ban but all the major powers agreed to it in order to avoid the major issues from the temporal war
With it appearing that the Eugenics Project that gave rise to Khan having taken place in Canada, it would be really fun to find out it's actually a branch of the Weapon X Project. 😀🖖
@@jgraygaming225 Weapon X is a fictional government genetic research facility project appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. They were conducted by Department K, which turned willing and unwilling beings into living weapons to carry out covert missions like assassination or eliminating potential threats to the government. It was similar to human enhancement experiments in the real world, but it captured mutants and did experiments on them to enhance their abilities such as superpowers, turning them into human weapons. They also mutated baseline humans. The Weapon X Project produced Wolverine, Leech, Deadpool, Sabretooth, and Weapon H.
@Eirewolf I've heard about the project but how could that tie in with Star Trek? Realistically, they're events in different universes, created and owned by different media companies.
@@jgraygaming225 The name Soong says it all. It is all about creating new life. The Soong that started from creating Kahn, had a later descendant that then went on to create Lore and Data. The Temporal Wars are the conflicts on connections like this, but on a far greater scale. Annorax is a key name in all those fights. Both the scientist and the time ship that is named after him.
I don't get why the project Khan folder was dated 1996. 1996 was when the Botany Bay left Earth. Ricardo Montalbán was born in 1920, making him 46 when Space Seed was filmed. That means that Khan was born around 1950 in the TOS timeline, not 1996.
As the above video explains the Temporal Time Wars has shifted events. So the boy who is named Khan is born later. And as for the Project Khan folder being dated 1996 it just means that any male child being a product of Operation Khan would be given that name.
My RU-vid feed recently displayed, a video from your channel, "10 Times Star Trek Accidentally Filmed Things You Weren't Meant To See", rather than post to a 2 year old video, I'll post here. Watching the version broadcast over television, I noticed ... Watching DS9 Season 4 episode "Rules of Engagement" they lost count of the pips, on Sisko's uniform, Sisko goes from Captain, to a Commander within about 10 minutes after opening credits, then back to a Captain after the first commercial.
I find it interesting that Locke (from Discovery Season 5) looks somewhat similar to the Na'Kul. But by that time everyone should know them right? So Locke isn't one I guess.
We could have a Prodigy episode that finds the Dauntless (being captained by whom I’m not sure) ending up in that 26 century battle. It could still happen for them- because that might have been them!
By this point, temporal stuff in Star Trek is confusing. At this rate I wonder if it’s a matter of time until the writers accidentally create a time travel episode that cancels out other episodes or even shows. If Star Trek shows are going to show more conflicts, maybe focus on an invasion from the Mirror Universe or a threat from outside the galaxy given the Borg are gone, the Romulan Star Empire is shattered, and the Dominion are staying in the Gamma Quadrant. The Mirror Universe is a strong idea to me because given that we know it’s no longer accessible, maybe this revelation pushed someone in the Mirror Universe to invade the Prime Universe. We already have non-canon games and comics that show Mirror Universe invasions. That being said, who would be the enemy? The Klingon-Cardassian Alliance? A revived Terran Empire? Somebody new?
Kovich says explicitly that the Terran Empire is gone and makes no reference to them having to fall a second time or anything like that. I think they’re off the table. The Alliance, mirror Dominion, mirror Borg, or mirror Romulans would be the big threats I would look at, especially since the last three are entirely unknown. Personally, I like the Terran Empire being dead and gone. I think it was a good shakeup for DS9 to make and going back to it imo can only stifle story potential and render the mirror universe fairly one-note. I also prefer to be optimistic and think that Smiley and the gang managed to make something better
In one of the Enterprise episodes (I don't remember which) they find what is effectively a TARDIS. It is also confirmed as a time ship (and bigger on the inside). Ignoring that this was a neat nod to Doctor Who and focusing only on the canon implications. Since it's never mentioned again, despite the Time War being such a big thing in the show, could this ship be from the time war, or would it potentially be from even farther into the future? OR, for a real mind bending idea, from even farther in the PAST from one of the old races. Proto-Q or even the progenitors?
@@joerider3769 A fair point. Still doesn't hold a candle to the one from the books, though. The Faction Paradox actually did cross over dimensions in that one.
Retcon idea for Archer as the adversary: he travels to the future and sees the devastation left by the events of current season Discovery (the Breen destroy the Federation), or maybe even the Burn, but only briefly. He assumes they lose the Temporal Wars, and is now deadset on preventing it and makes the wrong choices.
And the Kernim ( from St Voyage Years of Hell ) were one of the trouble maker of the Temporal time war , their weapon "Kernim Chronophage" a timebug device left from the time war , In 32nd centuries people can still buy them in the black market , it was use to attack USS Discovery . The Kernim are specialist in Chroniton technologies , they use it in torpedo and time ship to erase competitor from history . It make sense they are one of the enemy in the Temporal time war
In the eternal cliffhanger limbo of Trek, I have been able like you Sire, to ascertain that many many temporal war secrets in either a Captain franchise w Dorn or Yeoh. We might not need both, but we certainly deserve it. ❤
The Guardian of Forever explained why Nero, his crew and Spock didn’t have issues with jumping timelines, and going backwards in time. It basically comes down to distance from the point of divergence. Because Spock and Nero traveled backwards in time they spent their entire lives moving forwards to the point of divergence. Empress Georgiou on the other hand jumped into the future meaning that she would be moving away from the point of divergence. Every second thousands of new potential timelines became possible.
I think that the Gate Way aka Carl is the same tec that is seen in Star Trek TNG. In the S2 E11 “Contagion”. The Gateway that you see Picard, Data & Worf passing though. I think this is the birth of it all.
I liked this explanation. Thank you, although it was a bit confusing. I have a question about Strange New Worlds. I love the show, it has slowly become my favorite of all the Star Trek series, but why are there inconsistencies with it and TOS? Like the Gorn for example. In TOS when they first encounter them, they never heard of them before. Well if on SNW they are about to go to war with them, how would they not know about them on TOS? Just things like that make it a little confusing.
I'm going to say somthing controversial; I think we should de-cannonize TOS. Hear me out: They mention a war in the 90s that Voyager wrote out, sexism in the Federation existed (Pike not wanting women on the bridge, women can't be captains), the Enterprise could zip from the center of the galaxy to the outer edge in hours instead of decades. It would allow Khan being a part of WW3. As well as undo many Canon issues.
I still like the take that STO had with the temporal war arc there. There will always be a Battle of Procyon V, who and what are fighting are the variables, but it always happens. And damn it Noye...
I really wished that you had put up spoiler alerts when talking about Strang New Worlds & how the girl was a Romulan. Haven't caught up on the show & didn't expect all that revealing plotlines. Had to cut the this off since I don't know what else you may spoil.
Silly question but I'm asking it anyway... are the other time-travelling factions/beings of Star Trek - the Q Continuum, the Prophets, the Travelers, the Krenim, the Department of Temporal Affairs, etc. - aware of the Temporal Cold War? What about Section 31?
How does Buffer Time fit into the temporal wars? We know it's elimination wrecks all sorts of havoc on ships. Was Freeman being controlled by a temporal agent trying to undo the fabric of the Federation???
I do wonder how these shifts and time with Khan and the Eugenics Wars what effect and the Enterprise encountering Khan for the episode of space seed because wouldn't the botany they need the amount of time that it had in order to drift to where the Enterprise encountered it and if so does the Wrath of Khan happened the way it did
I was hoping that they would do a series on the ship of Relativity but instead they did Enterprise which Incorporated a lot of the time travel which in my opinion did not work at all. Not to mention the whole Discovery series time travel which was ludicrous to me.
Sto gives nice little looks into the temporal wars while leaving enough out other people can run with it. I reckon the Strange new worlds will dip into it as they kinda running it off a separate timeline as it's the best star trek series we've had in awhile 😂 so they can't drop it
Would anyone else like to see a Temporal Wars series or just me. I dunno if would be to complicated to do though, time travel always messes something up but could be a great way to bring all captains in to same series
Star Trek online, i know is not canon, but STO has a story line that revealed the creators of the Delphic Expanse (The Xindi arc) were infact the Crinum from Voyager
No Tuterians not Krenim. Though the Krenim were involved thanks to Noye who had a Tuterian wife in one timeline where they are in normal space. Noye redid year of hell in all of reality.
As someone who’s never been a fan of the Enterprise NCC 1701 J…that new, GORGEOUS rendering has made me reconsider said opinion 🖖🏼🖖🏼🖖🏼 That being said, I still don’t care for the Dauntless and NOTHING can change that opinion 😬😬😬😉😁😂🤣
In the Animated Series, couldn't Spock have been said to dimension travel through the Guardian when he used it to correct the events of his damaged time line? Commander Thelin's timeline had no Spock in it since young Spock died during the pre-Kahs-wan self test...
Okay I must admit. I am an on and off Star Trek fan. I like it but the lore can be a bit too complicated for me some at points. So I have a question for you… WHY THE HELL IS THERE AN ALIEN IN AN SS UNIFORM AT MY SCREEN AT 1:22.
Regarding Prime Spock and Nero suffering effects. It is stated that the mirror universe is now further away and the ties have essentially been severed as there hasn't been any contact with it in X number of years. It is very possible that the distance away from your time, as well as the "distance" your universe is from the one you are currently in, is what causes the problems. If this is the case, prime Spock, while he is further back in time than his origin, would actually be quite "close" to his universe, as that timeline is a relatively new branch and therefore, should be even closer than the mirror universe seeing as the mirror universe goes back to at the very latest first contact day, and would undoubtedly extend MUCH further back than that. Assuming all timelines or as they seem to be called in Star Trek, Universes, are branches of the prime timeline, we have no idea how far back the "mirror" universe branched off from our own.
We do know in a few key areas where Mirror differs from Prime. In Mirror, it is the Axis Powers that won WW2. Which is why they are so violent. But, the far bigger difference, is the Terran Empire fell long before DS9's episodes in Mirror. That is where things changed, since the Empire acted as a Mirror to the Federation.
@@shauntempley9757 Correct, but how much further back does it go than that? What was the original deviation point that caused the split? Was it the Nazis winning World War II? Did the Roman Empire never fall? Genghis Khan was never defeated? Christianity was snuffed out by the Romans before it could take hold? I feel like this is something that should be explored.
@@shattered_helix I agree with you. WW2 going that way does hint at all those historical moments you listed do not happen in Mirror. Or, they do, but too the worst versions.
Does anyone know why the Temporal Battle Cruiser is so small in STO? The game is no stranger to large ships and I thought the Enterprise-J is a few Kilometers long and a few wide, this ship is gargantuan but in STO it’s smaller than a galaxy class ship. Just wondering if anyone knows why they decided to do it that way.
I doubt prime Spock's sickness would be quite as bad, because his jump was backwards only a couple hundred years, and I Believe he landed close to the diversion point, meaning the universes only started to branch there as the divergence started to happen
a protagonist changing to an antagonist for the first time, unless you're aware of a very obscure episode of TNG called THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ... Or when Worf, Troi, and Data got possessed. Or like every single Mirror Universe episode. Or fifty other examples I could give. If you skip all of that, THEN it would be the first time.
Being both a Dr. Who and Trek fan I love this sort of stuff. It could also be an interesting way to do a Dr. Who Trek crossover. The Doctor on The Enterprise.
The Temporal Cold Wars are just as ambiguous as the Eugenics Wars now. Hell, the temporal wars more than likely affected when exactly the Eugenics Wars took place and the prime history probably has been changed.
