It certainly seem like it, doesn't it? I wonder that myself - everyone knows S3 was the most popular and yet they changed all the good things that brought in players both to dungeons and gearing. I don't understand them, they seem like amateurs that don't care and want to ruin the game.
To be clear, the +15% dps/hps and +50% movement speed "Engineering" buff in City of Threads can be activated by Priests, Rogues, and players with 25+ Khaz Algar Engineering skill up to four different times in that same area. Ara-Kara appears to have a Tailoring interaction. Stonevault has a Blacksmith, Warrior, and Dwarf buff that's insane: +10% Vers for 10 mins. And Mists has the unlockable walls usable by Night Elves, Herbalists, and both Tauren races. I think all of the TWW dungeons have some similar interaction, but I can't seem to get the boat to spawn in The Dawnbreaker to continue testing.
Blizzard seems to design this game for the 0.01% who treat it like both their first and second jobs. S4 Dragonflight m+ was the best experience I've had in this game in years. Now they're removing a bunch of what made that the case. Tell me you don't want me to play your game without telling me you don't want me to play your game.
Without testing it myself, from what people are describing this season sounds categorically less fun than m+ previously, which is a shame, and hopefully incorrect
im not surprised. Honestly with the dungeon squish i think thats what has made it unfun for me as i liked to play every role and see how far i could push in each... once it became squished tho i lost interest in playing the healer/tank roles in s4 because of how fast a group will disband after maybe 1-2 wipes i just thought the best decision was that im not a master at those 2 roles and if +2s are this much of a pain i might as well bench those specs.
You have to keep in mind that the first season is almost always wildly overtuned for half of the season. If they keep finding pain points where like 30% of the people run into problems then they’ll nerf or change it.
@@James_Johnson79 True i mean thats why im kind of waiting for TWW for M+ because maybe the squish was just super overtuned due to it coming out in the final season of DF. But we will see im hoping cuz M+ is usually what i like to do when im just kind of playing alone on alts.
@@billjohnson2307 Huh, interrsting. I basicly stopped playing m+ after squish for simmular reason. Back in old system "If I did +22, I probably can do +23" was ALWAYS true...I mean there was a wall somewhere, but I never reached it, beacuse next lvl was only slightly harder, so it always felt doable. After squish. +12 falls over on its own +13 everything is oneshotting WTF??!! The difficulty progression is FUCKED...I Hope they fix this for TWW
They always do this. They eff up the first season until they lose a lot of players & traumatize others so they never do a key the entire expansion. I don't understand why. I literally don't get it. It's getting harder and harder having friends play. At least they could give the first season a break but no they always mess around and make it hell until everyone leaves. I used to have 3-4 groups running, now I have 1 and a half maybe. Even if 4th season was super easy, my friends don't come back after you've ruined their fun, they start loathing the dungeons from season 1 & 2 and never do them. This will kill it completely :(
Good overview of the different dungeons, im sure the issues willl get hotfixed or patched at some point. Makes me happy to see Shaman topping the dps meters in some of those runs tho. Also, some of those huge aoe pulls look crazy, u guys went wild...i was panicing seeing those hp bars drop so low or jump up and down so much. Pretty wild stuff.
@@Raddo94 ok snowflake we all understand you are a pro, now go back to pumping those +7s. And just so you know, there are different types of hard. Having multiple different m+boss mechanics may be fun and hard, or may be just hard. Having to kite as a tank is not fun. Having an ability to do a big pull may be hard and fun, having to pull 3 mobs at a time because every one of them just passively buffs each other is not fun. So yeah, forcing you to do shit which is mostly considered to be unfun (attention starved andies like you, who will always have an opposite opinion aside) is not fun, duh.
@@Raddo94 Because 99.9% of the M+ playerbase isn't some organized stack of MDI superstars who enjoy instantly wiping if they dare pull more than 1 trash pack without co-ordinating CCs and interrupts via some psychic mindmeld. Maybe you're some kind of masochist, but most of the playerbase find doing big pulls and blowing shit up objectively more enjoyable.
with the "stops no longer actually stop casts" change this game looks like it's gameplay is starting to feel more and more like classic. stuns are stuns, interrupts are interrupts, etc...
I think the dungeons are fine. I starte however to dislike the fact that in season one we are only getting half of the new stuff. i hope they change that to all new dungeons in season 1 and after that start to rotate some old in - that would be more exciting I think. On a side note: whoever thought it would be a good idea to bring back Shadowlands dungeons needs to be get fired! Who really thought: _Hey I bet people gonna love stuff from Shadowlands, which was so well received_
I do agree that the AoE stop change was bad, but I always feel like the black sheep because I don't like massive AoE pulls. I would much rather being fighting in the 5-8 target range with mobs that were mechanically interesting. I don't like pulling 15+ mobs where the "counter play" is just how many AoE stops can you rotate before they kill you. It's boring.
I just want to know what Blizzard was smoking in Grim Batol. Before the 3rd boss there's a pack with like 3 warlocks in it where they all must be stopped or you just insta wipe to the several million hp absorb (that gets put on the whole party). If it was a kick? Yeah, sure, whatever. But it requires a hard stop and they also all desync their casts so you need 3 separate stops.
can you make an update video for people interested in m+ that covers addon and weakaura stuff? like: which addon gives me the breakdown of all group abilities, which boss mods addon is th currently used for m+, where do i get the weakaura that puts mob abilities on the nameplates, where do iget the wa that tells me im targeted by a spell, which addon gives me a better dungeon timer/mob count view? i lost my ui somewhere in s2 and since then...well i rock the standard ui :D
Because it removes the 'challenge' of planning routes, and turns M+ into an arms race of how what is the best pure aoe classes to bring vs how many aoe stops are needed. Instead of the Great Push, it's just MDI pulls all of the time.
@@stevenhs9773 That statement makes no sense because we pull big in the great push. Clearly they want to make the pulls even smaller than what you see in the great push.
I think the stops change in TWW is a good thing for the majority of the community but blizzard hasn’t designed the dungeons in to accommodate that change. Hopefully they’ll deal with it in the future.
I know you dont really play melee but I do feel like its something that should have absolutely been touched on regarding the dungeon pool for s1. Most m+ keys have historically been fairly unfriendly to melee in recent history, but with this dungeon set Blizzard apparently thought it was a good idea to turn that up to 11. The amount of area denial and other mechanics that mostly just fuck melee(both in loss of uptime, and it just being much more dangerous as melee) is quite frankly unacceptable design, as if wizards didnt already dominate the m+ meta enough, it seems like its going to be even more true in TWW. Idk maybe it feels extra bad since I play outlaw, and losing acro for outlaw was a huge deal in m+(seriously a criminally terrible design decision for Outlaw, as if being the only hardcapped spec left in the game+being the most uptime reliant spec in the game w/o any burst wasnt bad enough) but it just seems like the people making decisions definitely do not play their own game, or at least definitely do not play anything besides warlock/mage/aug. I really dont remember a set of dungeons that felt THIS bad as melee. And coincidentally they roll out this set of dungeons, at the same time that they removed increased melee range talent for all melee that had it...weird how that works, why does Blizzard just hate melee DPS in m+? Who knows, but its pretty stupid given the fact that playing ranged already felt 10x more payphone in high keys, and the fact that ranged have historically ALSO been tuned higher/been the meta choice. Does no one think its weird that there are(historically) some keys where playing full melee simply feels troll/makes the key feel infinitely harder, but playing full ranged is never an issue(in fact, more often than not, its meta)?
This is why I switched from Outlaw to mage and plan on keeping the rogue as an alt(barely). I love playing outlaw but the game hates it. It sucks trying to keep uptime in the higher keys. Either you risk death and get decent dps or do crap dps while being slightly safer. There is no safe high dps option like I have on my mage lol.
Taking a stop in a pug is a negative. Especially an aoe stop. Just eat the mechanic or run out the first time it casts. You’re gonna have to deal with it anyway
i think ara kara is going to have some quite large pulls in both the opening and mid way sections. just havent seen it being done on beta much since bosses in there have been so fucked there are a lot of mobs that dont do much or only do things to targets within 20-30 yards.
Tank POV: ridiculously large pull like we have in Uldaman, with 2 tank buster 4 trogg to interrupt chain lightning 5 basilisk chomping you / putting reflect up AND some ground effect to dodge is just too much stress on the stress ( who is also the de-facto shotcaller in every group). then 2-3 random mob in that pack aggro on a DPS because they didn't wait until everything was grouped up before opening... I can understand how a DPS would enjoy watching a lot of numbers pop up on their screen.... but personally I'm fine if pull never go above 10 mob.
@@icswack6015 stressful cause the one anima-slash tank-buster hurt sure. Stressful because you have 9 different thing to keep track of and shotcall at once? no.
Tank isnt really the de-facto shotcaller on stuff like interrupts. Most groups dont really shotcall at all until you get to the higher end and even then its mostly a shared job. A dps calls the kicks, maybe the tank the frontals and mechanics like that and healer calls for defensives if needed.
@@highertest Tank are the de-facto shotcaller for anything stun-stop-kick related, decide the route, decide how much to pull, have to call lust, have to call Brez ( if they aren't the one doing it with Blood/guardian coming up), they are expected to track everyone CD and magically modify pull based on a random DPS wishes... What world are you living in.
so i like how in the origanl affix post thy blizz sayd thy think thy under stand what hige end players like among thos bullet points was big pulls and then thy have gone on to make it wores to do that wall admitingt that thy know that it is what the players find fun i dont get it????!!!
Since they took the easy route this first patch and did minor reworks to shadowlands dungeons I hope season 2 or 3 we get big reworks with bc or wrath dungeons.
I don't understand why they want you to go slow (1 pack at a time) and why they want you to die instead of run out of timer. It's been like that for a long time now, I think we should swing back the other way at least a bit...
AOE stops were OP. It allowed for triple ranged comps to dominate the past few seasons. To compensate, bring melee dps for more kicks and single-target longer stuns.
@@Calltrops77 and Aug Mage combo is allowed to dominate because they can get away with using aoe stops to take care of most issues. make comps have to do more than that, and you force groups to move away from aug/mage/ranged, and go melee more.
@@Calltrops77 And even before Aug came on the scene in S2, groups almost always wanted Evoker healer in S1 because of AOE Knock, AOE pushback, and AOE de-rage. -- Instead, maybe go back to previous seasons, and force comps to go more melee for the things that they can offer.
Careful trusting this guy.. I've seen this face before and last time he wanted to euthanize a whole population because they had a genetic defect.. Jokes aside, good vid. The biggest takeaway from me is that a lot of the decisions seem to make m+ less pug friendly... which is weird? It's an MMO, we're supposed to play together and have fun? I don't really understand this whole e-sportifying dungeons, I really don't. Blizzard has failed on all fronts regarding e-sports. Starcraft dead, OW dead, HOTS dead, TGP/MDI low viewer count, arena cups low viewer count. The only thing that gets good viewercounts is the RWF which isn't even something Blizzard actively participates in lol, it's all standalone companies and sponsors. Wow isn't fun to watch as an esport, it's fun to play, tanks being more prone to death(aka less active tanks in the playerpool) ; making a mob in nearly every pack that casts 4 different spells (2 of whom will A) oneshot a random player or B) cripple your group beyond recovery) is not the way to do it. On top of that adding DR resist, adding that stops don't prevent a mob from instantly recasting it.. Bro people can hardly coordinate interrupts as is in pugs, do they play their own game? Who thinks this is FUN?
Ya know… i like doing M+… but from everything i hear about Tank changes and things i hear about dungeon changes… this shit sounds miserable… i mean it does every single expansion… but i’d love to for once go into a new expansion with some positive news…
wow i fucking hate this pool... i fucking hate siege and that dragon run one... necritoic is fine. mists is super fun to me. that open city one sounds like it blows...
Blizzard: So what do people like about m+? Big trash pulls! Blizzard: So lets make it impossible to pull big, that will be super popular! I feel like they actively hate their player base.
I just don't think Blizzard plays this game. They have no idea how players play the game, or what is fun to them -- and there are some people on the Blizzard development team who think they know better than anyone else -- despite not actually playing this game. Whenever they concede somewhere, they just make something else worse -- or they do something else to undermine the change. Like to give the optics that they're listening.. but to still make things just kinda shitty. It's like a toddler saying they cleaned their room, but all they really did was shove everything under the bed. It's exhausting.. like pulling teeth to get them to do anything. I legitimately think that they believe they're saving the game, while actively destroying it. It's almost incomprehensible to me.
Is there a single player who did not like gambit? Just a swarm of nothing doing murlocs which you can pull 20+ of. These new dungeon feel like a role-play adventure in which you have a battle to the death with three mobs every 30 yards. It just seems like they design the m+ dungeon the be done like 5 times each and nothing more, like normal dungeons you do a couple of times while leveling. If you don‘t do the dungeon according to how blizzard has intended it to be done, you just get murdered by 10 mechanics happening at the same time. I just wish m+ would be more open with what trash you want to play, having 110% trash in the whole dungeon is just unnecessary restricting. It also sucks that trash which you have ignored in past expansions like the grim reaper mob in NW don‘t get reworked to be more appealing to play.
I think its a little disingenuous to tell people dont play M+ if they dont like it. Its 90% of gear progression if you're pushing AOTC or trying to mythic raid. Its the only way to gear out full heroic without being at the mercy of RNG, its the only way to upgrade all your gear if you dont want to upgrade 2 items a week, and until now where the last 2 boss will drop a crest tier up, it was required to max upgrade period if you didnt mythic raid. I'm just happy I dont have to deal with fuckery affixes like incorp and afflicted anymore but I absolutely despised M+, I only tolerated it because it was required to gear. If anyones not a complete casual M+ is absolutely mandatory.
It sounds like every change they've done to m+ is purely negative in terms of enjoyability. CC won't stop recasts, there's a ton of pull limiting trash, some old tech/mechanics got removed that were considered fun. wtf are they doing..?
So why bother interrupting if it doesn't stop the ability? that's gonna be a massive exercise in frustration, years of being trained to interrupt and now, what, cast after cast? After players complained about too many casts? Blizz MUST be joking. They must, right? Some abilities like Grim Batol are designed to kill if they go off and now we can only somewhat delay them? So my whole intettrupt kit as a pala just got completely devalued? WHY? Why even bother making things interruptible in the first place? So each mob gonna be like an interrupt minigame ONLY for organized groups where they will have to chain interrupts? What a mess...
I think the biggest issue no one is talking about is the removal of rotating tyrannical and fort for higher keys. This effectively HALVES the amount of content imo, because with fort and tyra, each dungeon has basically 2 versions. Combined with short instances and no extra affixes, this season could get boring the fastest yet. Big fan of lots of things they have done with m+ in TWW, but they should seriously reconsider keeping tyra/fort rotating at all key levels.
IMO the new dungeons are fun, the old ones are more problematic due to some of the changes to them to modernize them. The worst thing about m+ that i experienced so far in testing is xalatashs bargain seems to know the worst time to spawn every time it spawns regardless of which one it is. Simple solution is get good and push 12+
I realize I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't mind the hindering of mass-pulling. M+ sometimes becomes a bit too degenerate like Challenge modes back in the day where you would just pull the entire road of mobs until you reached the boss and then AoE'd them all down. Personally I'm having more fun when it's a bit more intimate with smaller packs. It values single target a bit more so the classes that don't have insane AoE can keep up and it just makes things a bit more clear when there's only 4 or 5 mobs instead of 12.
to all the people crying and moaning and bitching how m+ will suck next season. Give me 1 time the first season did not suck ass because blizzard did not put enought time in. And this time they put even less time in. i Expect nothing less than 2 seasons of bugs and bullshit.
The problem is they're spending to much time. They're over cooking these dungeons trying to make them challenging but the challenges they create just happen to consistently be un fun
@@hr329085 AoE stops are only needed because blizzard is over cooking giving every other mob a mandatory interrupt. It doesn't have to be this way and shouldn't be this way.
@@hr329085 except they can make big pulls that don't require a bunch of stops. The pull before Ancient Protector only really saved tank damage with stops unless you somehow sniped the instant cast bug leap. Gambit in SL was a bunch of giant pulls that required very few stops unless you were super ignorant in the last area.
