Stephen A. & Bill Simmons debate MJ vs. LeBron as the NBA GOAT | First Take 

Asithirteen

On everything.

Simmons said he would take Ray Allen & Steve Nash over Allen iverson so he is a bit ridiculous. Iverson beat Ray Allen in the playoffs in game 7 with the worse team. Steve Nash had 1000 times the talent around him also

Chris Sharp come on bro lol. it’s 2020 we all can look back at iverson and see what he was; one of the games best scorers, but not a winner.

I could listen to Bill talk basketball all day

Hahahaha typical Stephen A

Lmao

Lmao I was literally just about to comment that

😂 😂 😂

Tiger Hoods. Facts

But it’s a good song though 😂

😂

it’s basically the same song but constant remixes being put out

Mustard on da beat

@NonyaBusiness! no hes right, at this point in time I can spout every sports talking head argument about goat. Its been beaten to death and there are no new angles to develop a new take. If you wanna bring it up after lebron has most points and another championship fine, but at this point its been the same thing for the last 4 years

Stephen A's last words on his deathbed will be "LeBron" and Bill's will be "Brady"...

Right

Just appreciate the greatness people 🤦🏾‍♂️. LeBron not gonna play forever and is gonna be HEAVILY missed the day he retires so enjoy him we have him.

BamaBoii on god bro

Yet he's always quick to call someone out when they need to interject when he's making a god awful point

J w Exactly💯

foh

@@rashadarnold9852 i mean ya dude not wrong tho

The only reason this is even a question is because Ray and Kyrie hit those bailout 3's.

And because Jordan didn't play any good teams during the 2nd three peat

@@thsu8 and Jordan won 1 playoff game until Phil Jackson implemented the triangle offense. And why do people never bring up Steve Kerr's clutch shot in game 6

thsu8 the only reason this is even a question was because Jordan have pippen and Phil.

@@Lupe1106a faxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Facts this is why undisputed is way better

😂😂😂😂😂

Fiyah 🔥🔥

⏸

That grown man really talked bout another man's guts. Smfh.

The killer instinct

The posts do get tiring haha

And you will watch every minute.

Deadass fr

😄 right

Thanks, really needed to know the variety this week.

how about they talk about how in 2000-2001 starter derek fisher got hurt for 62 games and la's third best player was a mediocre rick fox(who the year before avg. like 5 ppg) after they got rid of exel jones rice over the past 3 seasons weakening the wing and guard spots on the roster expecting kobe to grow to mvp level at an early age and the lakers were playing old man grant a washed brian shaw a washed ron harper and they had to sign a washed older isahai rider just to fill the spot as tye lue was young and devan george was young so they had no real wings off the bench or guards since horry was a pf and madsen was useless so was slava and foster so basically kobe could not sit cause he was their only real sg and one of two wings or reliable perimeter players on defense for them all year with no backup center really and how kobe did not complain just played the minutes and how that probably led to his injuries later on and fox as well being washed earlier than he should of been...no one mentions this...like bro that season's lakers team's 4th best player was some nights robert horry or instead was an old washed horrace grant and then the bench was trash probably rider was their 6th best player or harper some nights at his advanced tired legs and age...its terrible man...people want to pretend that lakers team was bad in the regular season but they had no bench at all and fisher was hurt....that team probably is overrated all time but that season they could of won 73 games and gone 15-1 in the playoffs...its one of the least talked about seasons but like I get it they had a big 2 but after that the roster was very mediocre like horry was meh that year 7 ppg for his minutes was bad same for grant in heavy minutes getting 6.5 for his age like fox was scoring a little but he played a lot of minutes so thats why he got stats he was still mostly the same player he was as a backup in 2000 just getting more chances...I get it they had shaq and kobe but people forget these things like that was a trash roster around them

@@razkable You go discuss that with yourself

Ty did play with MJ in MJs late 30s and was as good as Lebron’s peak.

Exactly. LBJ fans think 8 straight finals with at least two all stars is more impressive than 6 titles with one all star in 8 years. Since the playoff format changed to 4 rounds in 1984 MJ is the only one to lead his team to two 3peats. Nobody has been close, Lakers only had one 3peat.

Agreed. I guess they think it must be hard to lose 6 finals lmao

Crazy thing was Shaq and Kobe could've won 4 straight if it wasn't for in fighting and the Pistons

Man MJ is the Goat no more said ✌🏾

@money Mark Cut it out SMH You're reaching lol

Exactly. So well said

New fans are weird. Started with Kobe fans, who act like it’s a sin to not have him top 2-5 when being top 10 is a great accomplishment. There’s a lot of great players in the league.

I do agree that’s unreasonable, but the pushback since this documentary dropped is that he’s not top 5. I personally think he’s behind Jordan and in a close race with Kareem for the two spot with Kareem edging him out because I still think LeBron needs another chip. That’s not unreasonable is it?

Stopping Bronsexuals Get a life man.

You could say the same thing about Jordan fans. Put Jordan anywhere other then number one and they flip out.

Facts

This sounds like a concession. MJ's peak is better than Lebron's.

@@NotUrBlkCrschnAntiGayMissile It's not though. Lebron's 2009 playoff run is far and way the peak of playoff basketball. Then, over their respective 10 year primes, they have an identical WS/48 of .260.

K x I’m confused. How is Lebron losing to Dwight Howard in the 2009 playoffs considered the peak of playoff basketball?

Kyle Kohler basketball is a team sport buddy one player can’t win a championship or beat a good team and don’t underrate prime Dwight and also to this comment if lebron was playing in the 80s and 90s instead of Jordan LBJ would’ve been the mj and you would say the same about him

Don’t act like MJ wasn’t ever swept

@@juniegyllenhaal3937 not in the finals... and never dropped 8pts🙄🙄

Junie Gyllenhaal He did when it wasn’t his turn but when it was his turn no one else won like in Bron era... but go ahead and make another excuse... I wait...

💯💯💯

@@juniegyllenhaal3937 not in the FINALS LEBROOM JAMES GOT SWEEP 2X THE FROZEN ONE

why is it so hard to say lebron is 2nd to mj when mj did more in less time with less star help on offense...pretty simple...like mj with another real scorer is insane to think about...

@@razkable It's not hard to say that if a person has any knowledge of nba history. These stupid mfers saying lbj is the greatest are on another level of ignorance. I get it, it's cool if lbj is your favorite player but there is absolutely zero evidence that brotha has had a more successful nba career than mj.

Joseph Espitia 100%. The topic has been covered a million times

I enjoyed it. It even touched on KAJ, another candidate

Yeah and I'm a Lebron fan. It's enough. Let's wait and see if Lebron can win a few more titles. If he does that, then we can have this conversation again, but not now.

There's nothing else to talk about.

@Paweł Adamowski Nah, the conversation would just end. Once Lebron's done, the GOAT conversation pretty much dies.

thats their job, its pathetic

Bingo Also factor in GS (Gm 7 Finals lead 2016) teaming up w prime KD to kill existence of competition

Too smart and too honest for live tv

100% facts

What Lebron can do is go back to 2011 and replay the next 8 years. Erase some of those loses.

@Ghost2000 This is the dumbest comment I've read in a while, and that's saying something.

Win 5 more rings.

Unless he wins 2 more mvps 2dpoys and more rings

its not jordan

@@dpok5302 are you high talk to me when lebron three peat

Because Ray and Kyrie hit those bailout 3's, yes we're still talking about this. Blame them. And Steph Curry choking like a dog in Game 7.

Everything you just said is still absolutely accurate.

Because it wasn't 15 full seasons. It was 13. 1 was injured and one was the comeback playing 17 games. Them are not seasons. Those are games not seasons.

@@anthonyfreeman8329 he the opportunity to make and play in 15 playoffs 85-93, 95-98 and 02/03. He didn’t make the finals (nevermind win the🏆) in 9/15 seasons period! He played in playoffs 13 times and missed playoffs on wizards (bulls also made playoffs going 30-52 or 32-50). I love MJ he’s my Co GOAT and I’ve seen him live center court row 10 50+ times since mid 80s, but nothing I said is false.

all of jordans finals opponents sucked, none of them was ever good enough to dominate the western conference the way the bulls did the east. Besides the jazz none of them made it out of the west more than once, really shows how mediocre these finals teams were

@@Enoughsenoughnomas Lakers were the first opponent and they won 5 Championships in the 80's! Ur a clown!

He's more watchable because he's a more skilled player, with more weapons in his offensive and defensive arsenal.

lmao. So using no facts. U lose.

@@jrsmith1998 Jordan is the juggernaut after beating those teams to become the best. Lebron still trying to beat the juggernaut teams. Facts. U lose

all of jordans finals opponents sucked, none of them was ever good enough to dominate the western conference the way the bulls did the east. Besides the jazz none of them made it out of the west more than once, really shows how mediocre these finals teams were

@@Enoughsenoughnomas u can't comment on how teams were in 90s when you were probably born in the 2000s. Because you don't know

Should that... not be used? Especially if we're talking about comparing him to a guy who Did Not Lose championships? This "debate" need to stop at this point. Fr

Black uncle tom I mean Bull for white couples yea and no. MJ exposed himself on the last episode. His “toughest competition was the Indiana Pacers” lmao. MJ had the greatest team assembled and the greatest coach of all time are 6-0! Phil literally left and went to 7 more finals. Idk man how great is Jordan really? Could not even reach the finals until he was 27: Lebron reached the finals at 22. They maybe closer than we think.

Nah, it's not just the 6 losses, it's the flopping, crying, team hopping, not wanting real competition, & giving up. I watched lebron run from going head to head w/kobe...& we won't even talk about the peds

@@NotUrBlkCrschnAntiGayMissile true. I mean you cant compare someone who lost championships to someone who didnt. Mj is 6 for 6. I mean mj only played 6 seasons right? Not really a valid argument. The nba fanbase is the only fanbase who penalize someone for losing in the finals instead of getting knocked out early. Guess why? Cause it's the only thing they have that puts jordan over lebron

neimi911 it’s not enough to just get to the Finals, it’s what you do when you’re there. Lebron is a great player, but there are so many moments throughout his career that made me look at question whether or not his greatness was equal to or greater than MJ’s. Jordan never had a Finals performance equal to Lebron’s performance against the Mavs in 2011. Yeah, Lebron was young-ish (26) but still.

That’s why I don’t like max on this show we need Jalen Rose,will Cain,or even Lavar ball to stand to him

😂

@Marcio haven 😂👍 I see what you did there.

If lebrun gets a 3 peat i think he would not only be the goat but the distance from Him to Jordan would but a country Mile. LeBron has been the league 17 years with 9 finals appearances sole based on his leadership. If he does 3 more finals then he would have led his team to the finals 12 out of 20 years. That is bonkers win or loose. I think the biggest problem with the comparison its jaded because the only thing we are allowed to do is compare the two based on finals when In actuality they should be compared or a career standpoint and the road they endured. There is not one team Jordan faced in the finals that would have beat any team Lebron lost to in the finals. Dallas was the worst team and I just don't see The Suns beating them in the Finals.

No one brings up AD in any of this. AD is the real reason the Lakers have the record they do. He leads them in 4 categories including scoring. If Lebron wins another three chips, he will have had another top 3 player in the league to help him do so... again! That will always count against him. When Pippen was alongside MJ, Pippen wasn’t even given top 10 mentions. Go back and see. I can name atleast 10 other guys that were better than Pippen. Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Hakeem, Dominique, Robinson, Mullin, Mourning, Drexler, Penny, Shaq, Glen Rice, Steve Smith, Gary Payton, Grant Hill. I can name a few more that were better than Pippen or ranked better than throughout the 90s. Lebron simply will never shake that fact down. Its a wrap!

@@wehireblackmen5919 To go to the finals is not a accomplishement and if Lebron wins 11 titles, he still won't be better than Jordan. Jordan was considered the best player of all time even before he won his first championship and yes, Jordan beat tougher opponent than Lebron in the finals too. You just seem very ignorant. That Dallas team was not hard to beat...Lebron just sucks under pressure...

@Kenneth Erickson Thank you. And it's not like they're on the same level individually anyway. Titles are a tie-breaker when 2 players are close. When a players is significantly better...he's just better. That's why Jordan was crowned best player of all time even before he won a title. But titles make sense for Lebron and KD for example.

chosenjuan025 He had overwhelming numbers and 6 chips with 6 mvps. 3 times missing playoffs in a row don’t really matter it’s note even a foot ote

@@juanio7036 This was after his first 🏆 with the Big-O and before joining Magic's Lakers

chosenjuan025 Kareem didn’t miss it... The LAKERS did.

Definitely

They also forget to mention he only won 2 finals mvps and only one of those was with the Lakers. Not only that, but he never lead the Lakers, that was Magic. There's a reason the Lakers were referred as Magic's Lakers. Lets also add that he played his entire career with no defensive 3 sec violation and half of his career with no 3pt line.

Lebron had to trade players they were creating superb team's to beat him, celtibs and warriors for example. Don't be blind to why he did what he did

@@ljbrownedu Lebron cant win against aging dallas and spurs despite being on the superteam. So no, lebron is not the goat. If he won against dallas or the spurs and has 3 peated then maybe there is argument.

Spurs had 4 hall of famers, yes Dallas was a bad loss but that Dallas team beat LA and Kobe as well in the same playoffs

@@ljbrownedu LOL, so you were saying that Duncan at 37 and ginobili at 36 is better than bosh and wade? also you were saying that Kawhi at 22 is better than 29 yo lebron? That loss to the Dallas and spurs are both bad which will haunt lebron's legacy in every GOAT conversation.

Ghost2000 MJ pretty much did play with those two players. None of the point guards were all that great. Bj armstrong, Paxton and Harper. What’s your point?

Pre-durant they were

The same way they hate the Cowboys 🤠 😂😂🤣

they only hated the warriors because durant joined and ruined the league for 3 years. I bet more people hate on the nets now, they have 2 top 5 hateable NBA stars.

@@classyguy69 yeah, but since Durant suffered a possible career altering injury, and kyrie has been injured for most of the season, they've gotten some sympathy so they aren't quite as hated right now.

They were hated regardless of Durant due to that donkey Draymond who acts like he's a Hall of Famer for putting up triple singles.

Never was

Lebron should have 8 losses, when you really think about it.

Rings doesn’t determine who is better. Rings are a team achievement. Lebron James is the best basketball player the world has ever seen. It’s just natural evolution of sports and athletes. There will eventually come someone who surpasses Lebron.

Uchiha Joel lmaoooooooo

@Uchiha Joel so if you're boyfriend Lebron, went 0 for 10 in the finals it wouldn't matter? Dude please stop embarrassing yourself, and stfu!

Any MJ team. MJ was beating Teams with multiple NBA all-stars as a college player with college teammates. No other player EVER have done that before nor since.

lebrons 5 best teammates now can form an all nba 1st or 2nd team lol bosh love kyrie wade davis ...mj's best 5 teammates are woolridge rodman grant pippen toni (maybe 93 b.j.) ...the best guard he played with is 1993 b.j. or 1996 harper or 1991 finals paxon...think about that...and the best big he played with is grant on offense rodman on d and woolridge overall ...its not even close...think about this wade kyrie or bj lol ...love or bosh vs rodman grant woolridge....maybe oakley if you stretch it but like bro the best other player pippen vs wade or davis?..no contest

Asmosis Jones Now put up their opposition...The league is better than its ever been, that’s just evolution.

LeBron won 4 MVPs, and Wilt also averaged 30 ppg.

Same argument with Brady vs. Montana. Brady obviously the better stats and longer career (due to QB protection) but Montana won 4 SB’s faster than Brady and dominated in a way Brady hasn’t. So Montana’s peak was higher.

@@ericlind6581 good comparison

And crack isn't a drug

You smokin peepee

And the corona virus 🦠 will be gone by April.

His argument was basically saying If LeBron plays into his 50s continuing to play at the level he’s playing at now. It’s kind of impossible to talk resume over him or any statistical category because he’d have everything over jordan. There’d basically be two diff arguments at that point. Who’s had the better career which would be LeBron and who was better at their peak and that’d be MJ

Lebron was on the greatest team in Miami from 2011-2015 and he managed to get only 2 titles. Beaten by aging dallas and spurs. MJ has beaten more 60+ win teams than Lebron. So you saying there werent good teams is not logical.

Someone speaking the truth

King James they can't handle the truth LeBron James is the 🐐 more than a athlete .

🐐 James

Do you mean the players MJ faced or the players on his own team?

Yeah cause winning six championships is not eating

What does that even mean? MJ played 13 seasons. What Happened to the other 7 seasons?

The other matthew only Grant was not eating on the plane 😆.

Terence Asongwed MJ watch started with his first championship and nobody won after he won while playing. The same with lebron his watch started with his 1st.

You're right! he dropped the last 28 out of 29 points on them to get to the nba finals at 22.

Stat-wise LeBron has passed Magic long ago haha but Magic came into the league with all-time great help, LeBron had to find his own help because Cavs front office was incompetent.

*accept

They’re *

To be honest, that's debatable too. I know there are many fans who put Kobe ahead of Lebron. So there's that.

@@gregoryharlston0602 i love Kobe but objectively Lebron is a better player

@@gregoryharlston0602 not in the 10s tho

If LeBron is a goat, JJ Barrea and Jason Terry must be gods lol

Yes. This needs to be said more often.

PREACH

6-22 Kobe's career head 2 head matchup with da Kang😂😂

When the goat Jordan says nobody could beat him one on one except Kobe, that's the ultimate compliment........better than any ESPN "ranking" that came from writers that watch basketball but never played LOL

@@ozz7602 that a team record stupid everytime lebron try to 1 on 1 on Kobe lebron got destroy by Kobe so clearly Kobe>lebron easily

You would be crazy to not say Lebron is the best. The only reason people say someone is better is because of how great Lebron is and people are tired of it, like when MJ lost the MVP to Malone.

To Austin Clubb and Tong Zou: 6 rings. He does everything Lebron can do. Better defender. Better leader despite his abrasiveness. Just as good a 3pt shooter. And the media has compared LBJ to everyone else. That is my point. Not saying James isn't great. But the mere fact that there is debate and banter about his status proves my point. There was NEVER a banter, debate, or conversation about who was the best during Mike's run. Respectfully, DD

Austin Clubb that’s quite an unfair generalization, it’s no where near fact, it’s simply preference of criteria. I don’t have lebron as the goat. I see better than I can read. And my eyes tell me to go with Jordan. So if we’re going head to head in a series, with these two respective players, is it really foolery to believe you can win with MJ over lebron? I That’s where I’m confused , you’re are making it seem as if there’s no conversation to be had. Which is disturbing to read. And it’s quite disrespectful to what He’s accomplished. Personally I think he would devour lebron mentally. Forget clutch, Jordan was indeed a gangster on the court. Lebron is the family man. This doesn’t end well

@@magnaalexander89 Thanks for backing me up Alexander. Fortunately I am of the age where I saw both careers. And btw...if Ray Allen doesn't hit that shot in the finals we could be talking Lebron with 7 finals losses.

David Dale he absolutely could, and I think people his ability because he hasn’t done some of things MJ has. - Mike has two game winners in the finals. And one closes out the series. Bron doesn’t have that. And allen and Irving hit the memorable shots in pivotal moments. - Also 2011, I bring this moment up because it’s clear Bron is phenomenon like no other physically. And they speak of his ability to also affect the game in more aspect than Mj. - But why in 2011 was he not able to impact the game through blocks , steals, boards, setting picks, drawing offensive fouls. - Tell Mj he can’t score and that if he does his team will lose two points each time. I bet he finds every other avenue to a win regardless if he can shoot or not. - 2015 at home game 4 of the finals , Mozgov outscores him. They win that game, it’s over. - 2018 just game 1, why does he not shoot the ball? 19/32 from the line , 3/7 from 3, 10/11 from the line. The fact that he didn’t is baffling to me. He’s earned the right , yet doesn’t truly believe in his own power. G. Hill is being pulled down before the pass begins to leave Brons hands. - Let’s look at what happens next, why is he not attempting to get the board to put the ball back up after Hill is fouled. Clearly he is a better Choice than Jr. and it’s a one possession game.. these are questions I have. - Among other years such as 09’ and 10’

Posted saying the same thing..Lol.4-Real-tho

Nah. Shannon Sharpe is

@@Kickzsince86 Shannon is funny tho

But you still tune every day 🤨

@@icetray2727 Collin Cowherd: and I took that personally.....

I do! My list is 1. MJ 2. LBJ 3. Kareem 4. Shaq

@@KyleJBales Top 3 I agree with but Shaq? I don't even think Shaq was better than Olajuwon

Jordan never played against the 2 greatest shooters of all time in the finla

Lol, look up unrestricted free agency. Jordan "stayed" with the bulls because he had to, lol. For the majority of the history of basketball there was no such thing as un restricted free agency. He couldnt have left even if he wanted to. UFR didnt start til like 89 and even then you had to have been in the league like 7 years and had 2 contracts. Players previously were never allowed to team up. The teams owned you. You think no players before the 08 Celtics ever wanted to team up. You think all those HOFers who were getting killed by the celtics in the 60, 70s didnt want help? Yea all those players just stuck with their team out of loyalty. Jordan is Goat, but people need to stop the, he stuck around out of some loyalty to the bulls or some grand desire to make it to the top with no help. No, he struck around because he had to, just kind most every other player in the History of Basketball.

Ajizzy rambo 🤣🤣🤣

On god

🤣🤣🤣

Went to the finals in 07 with no other all star on his team something Jordan couldn’t do so that offsets 2011 try again

@Stopping Bronsexuals He missed playoffs because he was injured and the team was injured lol an incomplete team won't get too far. Lakers were 4 seed when the team was healthy. He plays a full season this year and what seed is he?

@@scotty776 false narrative my guy, when he got back they were ONLY 2 GAMES OUT OF THE 8TH SPOT and they went on to have a TERRIBLE record for the rest of the year WITH LeBron. Stop acting like he missed the whole year and didnt ruin the morale once all those trade rumors started

@asap Jordan won two rings with zero all stars on his team

I tend to agree, I tend to admire the players most who stayed with one franchise their whole career and built them up. Lebron had to go and join a superteam to win a title, Kevin Durant is a bit lower in my estimation for this reason too

And go undefeated in the finals

he has to win 7 championships dominate his era and make sure others dont eat off his run!

And be more dominant individually than Jodan as well. Jordan was considered the goat even before he won a ring.

I really hope LeBron surpasses Vince Carter's record of longest active player. LeBron playing at an MVP level at year 22? Hopefully he can do it but idk, 40 years old is a lot

@@scotty776 I believe he will do it. His son will be in NBA and drafted to his team in year 21

That's awesome but that wouldnt erase 2011 when he got outplayed by role players in the finals. JJ Barrea and Jason Terry outplayed him and even GUARDED him on multiple possessions where LeBron did nothing with the ball in his hands. MJ NEVER had that kind of historic collapse on the biggest stage

MJ got his records, points etc in basically 13 seasons with is injury season and retirement. Which even that is a testament to his greatness. James came out of high school and has played more than MJ. I would expect James to overtake Jordan on many of his feats. But he’ll always come up short on goat. The loses, giving up on teams, not as clutch as people think, poor three throw shooter and poor three point shooter. Nothing that James does will ever make him the best ever to play.

Shaun Campbell people like you will never call him goat and we dont give aff just know the majority of the world n all your freinds will know him as goat

Shaun Campbell idc wat u say mj could win without pip

@@thedailyidiot4817 you bronsexuals make no sense and lebron isn't even a top 5 all time great, you bring up MJ not being able to win without pippen his first few seasons in the NBA when lebron didn't even make the playoffs his first 2 seasons in the NBA in the weakest eastern conference ever, MJ was facing dynasty's like birds Celtics which is like lebron facing warriors with KD early on, and pippens first few seasons he rode the bench and only averaged 7 points per game