I really enjoyed this conversation with Stephen. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 3:10 - Do all human beings crave power? 11:29 - Russian people and authoritarian power 15:06 - Putin and the Russian people 23:23 - Corruption in Russia 31:30 - Russia's future 41:07 - Individuals and institutions 44:42 - Stalin's rise to power 1:05:20 - What is the ideal political system? 1:21:10 - Questions for Putin 1:29:41 - Questions for Stalin 1:33:25 - Will there always be evil in the world?
Спасибо большое тебе Лекс за этот подкаст! Уже посоветовал его друзьям, кто интересуется искусственным интеллектом 😅 Этот эпизод очень символичный - 20 лет назад Путин стал главой России (1 января 2000 года). Сейчас выросло целое поколение молодых людей, кто видел президентом только его. Все больше людей считает, что эпоха Путина - это время упущенных возможностей. Мы всерьез могли стать второй Норвегией и совершить экономическое чудо. Но что-то пошло не так, сейчас мы все больше понимаем, что конкретно. Я надеюсь, что довольно скоро народ России одумается, уберет режим Путина и построит нормальное демократическое общество. С Новым годом! Желаю всего самого хорошего в этом году! Успехов!
I think you missed an opportunity to bring in the political ideas of Chomsky - anarcho-syndicalism is an alternative to capitalism in a modern industrialized democratic society, and not only in theory (he refers to the anarcho-syndicalist society in Spain that was crushed in the late 1930s). There is nothing essential or inherent about capitalism to humanity or human society.
I would say, keep it up with the lack of interruption, I like this rolling of ideas. I find it refreshing to hear the punch line of the thought process when not interrupted with another question. I like the format. Keep it up.
I'm really impressed with the interview. Even though at times you were clearly stuttering, you covered yourself well and asked a food question. The interview improves as it goes on. Very well done.
I would say, keep it up with the lack of interruption, I like this rolling of ideas. I find it refreshing to hear the punch line of the thought process when not interrupted with another question. I like the format. Keep it up.
Truly. It also means hes really paying attention, which can and might be hard to do especially when u might have several questions and points your trying to get across to the audience
As a Russian, it's very insightful to see Stephen speaking. His intuition behind Russian power is even more right than of many Russians I know. And another point I noticed is that unlike many other western media I saw, Stephen does not try to offend Russian's political system, but rather explains what pros and cons it has. Very interesting watch.
Indeed, he is very prominent historian. He has been to late Soviet Union several times, he himself got acquainted with those communist party monsters like Ligachyev and observed the situation from inside. His book about the fall of Soviets is really great and down to facts rather than ideology. And, beside of his realistic vision on today’s Putin Russia, he obviously loves russian culture and people.
I am from Romania and the liberal Westerners are both blind and hypocritical. they do not understand the seduction and attraction Putin has in Russian society especially on educated people that do not agree at all with Putin ideas. they think everything is based on oppression and repression without seeing the fundamentals of Putin regime. the same way they ignored and still ignore the way Trump seduced poor white people to vote for him while ruining their lives
Listening to historians is always mind boggling for me, it reminds me how easy it is for us to ignore the consequential outcomes that we could draw from history as we move forward a a species. Thanks Lex! Great conversation with Stephen Kotkin.
"Calm, clear, concise" is 2/3 the definition of the word "Cogent"! Just replace concise for convincing" ****This is something that caught my eye. I am not trying to "teach" at you new vocabulary words.****
When I listen to Mr. Kotkin and read his books he always challenges me. His clarity of thought is refreshing. I also appreciate this moderator for not interrupting.
@Mark Smith -- so sorry. I didn't realize you were a Russia scholar. My mistake. It's healthy to treat books like football teams, as you apparently do.
Kotkin is a brilliant mind. Take away messages: The inefficiency of our political system is a feature, not a bug. Competition is the foundation of almost all healthy systems, be it political or not. Public discourse and limited government are the only way to sustain a political system on the long term. Lessons that the world needs to hear over and over again...
I just love the part where he just lists of these questions he would like to ask Putin and Stalin. I believe we rarely think of them and other leaders as people and how the nature of their occupation impacts them as a human beings. Stephen literally managed to humanise two figures that I otherwise look at as despotic overlords. Also, being from Romania - a former communist country - I really hope people from Western societies realise what a gift they'd been given by not having to deal with the consequences of such a regime. Please protect your democracies and don't fall in the trap of extremism of any kind, be it left or right.
Unfortunately in this generation, they do not know what we have. And even some of the older generation have lost appreciation for it. We are on a horrible path, that history tells us, will not have a good outcome.
Kotkin makes a point of this often, it is important to not dehumanize evil. Because then you lose track of how humans become "evil" and repeat their mistakes
@@Blendletan The first thing I always think of when I see someone like Putin, Trump, or any power hungry leader is think that they once had their nappies changed too! Second thing I always think is you too must sit down on the toilet and go for a poo. It helps to level the playing field! 🤣
Could have listened for another hour and a half. The truth is always more interesting, subtle and human then the narratives we hear in this country about Russia.
I admire how Professor Kotkin structures his explanation of the subject. Absolutely masterful. He captures my curiosity. I listen to him for hours and enjoy every minute.
Thanks Frank. I agree. I could listen to Kotkin for hours and hours. He is very unique - calm, concise, encyclopedic memory, remains as neutral as possible, just says it as it is. He's a huge gift to the world.
Stephen Kotkin has presented the most accurate and open interpretation of contemporary life in Russia. I have looked many years for such an analysis. Thank you for this incredible interview.
What makes this episode so great is that there is zero fluff. He doesn't go down any path that isn't important to the topic at hand. Hard to fill an hour and half that way. Props to this guy.
I’m a huge Kotkin fan. I own all his books and have seen all his videos. I am new to this channel. I consider this interview to be one of Kotkin’s most enlightening and I attribute that to the OUTSTANDING questions put to him by this interviewer. Very well done. So often interviewers come with generic questions and let the interview flow where it will. But the preparation demonstrated by your questions distinguished this interview from the rest. I particularly liked your big picture questions such as, “What would you ask these world leaders?”, and the questions that gave rise to Kotkin’s observation that the contradictions in practice of Leninism are inherent in Marxism itself even if Marx’s ideology calls for all the benefits of eliminating Capitalism and none of the drawbacks. This is the “nuclear bomb without civilian casualties” analogy. Outstanding interview...I’m a subscriber starting today. For those looking to read more about Stalin or Communism in Russia/Soviet Union, you cannot so much better than Kotkin’s two published biographies of Stalin. For your own sake, steer clear of less rigorous biographers like Sebag Montefiore. Kotkin limits his sources only to contemporaneous written texts so it is based on history as it unfolds rather than people’s biased recollections years later which are inevitably colored by subsequent events.
Stephin Kotkin is a national treasure! His translation of history (and power) into our world today is real and based on a very well informed reality. He is in a respected category of contributors to society that is very small indeed. While your dislike for Putin did sneak through your interview was outstanding in allowing Kotkin to answer the questions (which were excellent). It was extremely informative. Thank you.
I actually learn and retain information from people like him. His way of talking keeps the mind engaged without overwhelming it with information. That was a fascinating listen. Thanks Lex and Stephen.
I find myself in awe of Steven Kotkin, but Lex Fridman's interview style is so sensitive and intelligent that it shows the interviewee to best advantage. Not every day I spend an hour and a half listening to an interview.
Thanks 😊 Lex ! That’s so great you extend Your channel for great minds ! Hope you may do russian subtitles , it is so needed today for Russia to hear more about past & future !
Heeeelp 😂. I'm addicted to Stephen Kotkin's narration of history. Been at it for five hours!!!. Feels like litsening to my grandfather talk about political history. First time a soft spoken historian had my complete attention for hours and hours. Rational, captivating and informative. 👏
1:26:06 this is the best explanation I’ve ever heard of control-freaks, power seekers, etc.. People ignore the rush/drug/addiction side of controlling people. Most of us have no control over our environment and habits, so we have a hard time imagining that control can be a negative narcotic-style problem. This helps us understand the rare freaks who have so much power that they actually can control almost everything around them indefinitely
just look at how much emotional abuse is in a marriage. you marry a person to be happy and end up in a constant fight without leaving or making it better. tyranny starts at home
In addition to the addiction due to the rush of exercising power there is unfortunately for some a compulsive narcissistic psychological illness that can drive some to exercise power in truly abusive way while feeling deeply guilt and self-loathing inside, only to project all on the subjects of that abuse. Lastly but not least there is fear and paranoia factor to holding authoritarian power where one becomes further and further isolated, self-absorbed, and with no ability to trust in anyone for fear they wish to usurp your power or avenge any of your actions taken through your powers. That becomes a power psychology arms race in the internal person of the authoritarian and the external interpersonal relationships with all those around the authoritarian.
Many thanks Mr. Fridman, this has come to me like divine grace because although you talk mostly of Russia and America without even a subconscious thought about India, still this conversation is 100% related to the present situation here. We are under a highly authoritarian government and just as the respected guest of your podcast states that unquestioned authoritarianism breeds extremism and results in more mistakes than normal, we are facing some intolerable blunders of our ministers. To name a few, Demonetisation, Goods and Services Tax, Political laws, and the ongoing madness of Citizenship and National Security. Thank you, I found much useful content and context through this. GODSPEED.
@May Day Hi. I most certainly am saying that. India is definitely an autocratic rule for the last 6 years. It is reaching new heights of fascism these days. The ruling party is on a rampage, targetting students and intellectuals, ordering police to shoot openly on protestors, ministers openly provoking their young party workers to shoot and kill the people who oppose the government. It is unbelievable what is happening here. The future has two aspects, a near future and a distant future. The near future is depressive as the ruling party, the BJP, has four more years in power and they are going to continue the ongoing madness progressively. This is their ideology to make India into a religious state, A Hindu Raashtra they say. On the other hand, the distant future is quite extraordinary I imagine. This is because the present disturbance has brought to surface a definitive ideology to counter this disturbance which is the Spirit of our constitution. Also that the educated youth of the country has begun to stand firm against the aggression of the state while abiding by the restrictions of the constitution. Students are chanting the Preamble of the Constitution all over the nation.This as a whole is sure to breed a new wave of torch bearers of democracy that shall lead the country in a few years from now.
@Übermensch My friend you are at the lowest level of argument in the chronology, which, im sure you do not know, is "Name Calling". I would like to discuss with you when you might grow to the higher levels, the chances of which seem poor. God bless you.
This is possibly the first and only episode I've heard that hasn't delved into technology or AI, and I really appreciated it. Kotkin spoke with such clarity and eloquence, you've gotta get him back on the show to discuss another topic. This episode is in my top three all time for sure.
A fascinating account made by the keen eye of an experimented historian. Definitively a first class interview, informative and well achieved. Thanks again
Not fair, he's far more intelligent than that. I imagine a New Jersey encyclopedia as one where the cast of "Jersey Shore" wrote the entire thing. Probably more like a pamphlet actually.
Thank you Mr Kotkin for spelling out the obvious: that the USA and the western democracies belong together and should stand together for freedom, tolerance, and true progress. Thanks again.
Please have this man on again. To be honest, I watch your podcast mainly for the more "STEM-like" folks but nevertheless, his exposition and expertise on the subject engaged me thoroughly. Thank you again for just having these conversations in general. Now I'm going to smash that subscribe button and be on my merry little way.
This might be the greatest 'intellectual' interview I've ever seen. The questions are great because they are allowing the answers to guide the direction of each new question. And, this guy, S.Kotkin...he's so knowledgeable which allows him to "keep it simple"..so matter of fact..no bloviating..no special effects.. just flow.. Treasure
Wow! That was such an interesting conversation. I've recently read The Gulag Archipelago and that story burnt a hole in my heart learning about what happened to all those people. Thanks for posting :)
Would you consider this fact: the writer of the Gulag Archipelago and his wife claimed the book was not a historical telling but an experiment in story telling. Or would you claim I was lying/biased just because it disagrees with the accepted narrative of the USSR?
J N I would say you are historically ignorant because independent of the GA, there is overwhelming evidence the USSR was a horrible regime. Not to mention we know the author actually suffered under the USSR, why would he lie? You are probably mis interpreting a quote or not understanding what he meant by “experiment”
@@quinntolchin3080 A reason he would lie is because western states would AND DID fund his literature on account of it serving as anti Russian propaganda. Not to say it was all lies, I'm sure there are truths in it. But you would also be incentivized to appeal to your western backers by painting the most grim images. Exactly how North Korean defectors tell horror stories about NK and get payed for it, even if it cant be verified, and is sometimes even contradictory. And occasionally when the stories are disproved nobody in the media mentions it. Its funny because i probably research the USSR more than the average person and a lot of what is said is straight up false or twisted. Not everything, because the USSR did do things wrong but most people have no sensibility as to what that really was. They are all on the anti soviet band wagon, choo choo!! To have an unbiased view on such a controversial topic is hard. Especially when that topic, The USSR, is used extensively in ALL forms of media to contrast and exalt "western supremacy". This is especially toxic when our country, the USA, has been and actively is possibly the worst human rights violators on the planet. Really makes you think as to why we have to hate this boogeyman called the USSR. Maybe it's so we don't look at ourselves. The points is not to be pro this and anti that. It's to be unbiased and truthful.
@@jnr2349 I agree that western media definitely is not completely truthful when it comes to journalism and it did probably serve their agenda to promote the GA, but on the other hand the soviets did not even have freedom of journalism and actively suppressed any ideas contrary to their narrative which is the issue. You could say that the gulags were grossly exaggerated but thats doing a disservice to the thousands that were robbed of their voice. The issue of power in a capitalistic society is very real and leads to inequality but its a much more approachable than the alternative of never having the possibility of recognizing tyranny. Maybe if you would have read The Gulag Archipelago you would understand that the author purposely undermines the perceivable immorality of the camps to instead question the method of subjugation.
@@altvibr I wish the USSR would have done media and culture differently. But, they did no different than the US did and still does. Do you really think there has been free journalism in US? They claim there is. It's obvious that's not true from all the people who get stomped on for telling the truth. Even kids movies in the US are just thinly veiled pro military forces propaganda (looking at you comic book films). And I did read some of GA a while ago, but it was so blatantly propagandistic and dramatic that it was annoying me and I stopped.
Lex, could you try to interview Grigori Perelman - the man who refused one million dollar prize for proving Poincaré conjecture? His mindset is a big misery to many people myself included.
I've listened to Kotkin before, and his ability to synthesize huge events over large periods of time, and then convey them to 'the average listener' (me! ) is both remarkable as it is informative and entertaining. I've listened to the first half and will save the rest for later due to time constraints. Only having been a casual observer of Putin's rise to power, I'm struck by his ability to shapeshift according to the prevailing circumstances. It is creditable yet darkly dangerous; the results we now see in plain sight as the curtain is pulled back on quite an astonishing regime, which has effectively neutered most threats to its continued survival. Nothing is set in stone and Putin will make mistakes, but I feel we are witnessing a leader who is not desperate but confident enough within his power to reveal his hand, and boldly to say to his enemies and detractors, "What are you going to do about it? I'm here. Come and get me if you dare. "
I was listening to a Kotkin interview earlier and, as usual, he made a great point. paraphrasing, something along the lines of "maintaining an authoritarian system is simple, because all it needs to worry about is eliminating any alternative"
Regarding who can change the Putin regime’s direction: Low-level state officials that recieve too little bribe money (for their liking) AND/ OR very patriotic Russians that see Russia collapsing (when sanctions really hit) are the ones most potent in changing the Putin regime, besides disease or an assasination coup taking Putin off his pedistal. Combined with the effects of war, this way, the regime might be in peril. Optimistically, I’d hope it happens in the early autumn time-frame, realisticaly 1 to 3 years after the start of war; depending on the effectiveness of sanctions, the extent of war failure of Russia & geopolitics on the world stage 🤷♂️ Ends of winters can also be especially potent to rallying people for political change, as seen in previous Russian regime changes ^^
@@elektrotehnik94 @Elektrotehnik You make interesting, insightful and salient points. Thank you. I'm intrigued by you last point about 'end of winters' being a potential opportunity for leadership change. Has this happened regularly enough for it to be a pattern, and if so, are there underlying reasons for this? Don't worry if you don't have time to reply. I'm just curious.
As an avid reader of history for over 45 yrs I have great respect for Professor Kotkin. His work on Stalin and Geopolitics through the 20th into the 21st century is imo the very best. You can admire and respect a nation, its culture, its people while disagreeing with its means of governance. Even more important if you are going to write about events and/or people in history you need to go where the event or these people are from. I have come to understand that history really comes down to understanding human nature and that we constantly repeat ourselves due to failing to understand that nature. That military history has to not only consider the battles and decisions that the leaders on the ground made at the time but also needs to take into consideration all the influential external factors i.e. political. doctrine, available logistics, and the human nature of all the soldiers etc. that affect how things turn out. Excellent discussion Lex and some good questions
I really enjoy hearing him speak. Actually watched some of his lectures and various college campuses. His tone and flow of the use of words is easy to listen to. Knows how to hold an audience.
What wonderful insight. An outstanding episode in a long list of heavywieghts. You allow your guests to speak and let them take the lead. I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers.
You're an even better interviewer than Peter Robinson, Lex! His engagement and knowledge is immense, but your laidback and listening style while simultaneously posing inherently interesting questions is very enriching. Stephen Kotkin is the most interesting speaker on history and statehood alive, and you bring out the absolute best with your approach.
In 2023, Stephen Kotkin's words make even more sense. We need thinkers and scholars on this show and less "tool-makers" tech entrepreneurs that cannot think beyond the scope of their interests and think they are god.
Upon listening to the interview for the second time, I realized how great and thorough Stephen’s questions were. If it’s true that a well-posed question has half the answer, his questioning skill is outstanding.
Алексей, спасибо за подкасты. Очень интересно и информативно. Но хотелось бы русские субтитры для тех кто не знает английский. I assume you can read as well in Russian.
What a great interview. I have not before seen an interviewer sit back and let a profound thinker communicate thoughtfully and thoroughly to such a degree.
Absolutely fantastic podcast. Lex, you are perfect for this. Your curiosity about what it means to be human will drive this podcast to truly awesome places. Thank you!
Love the diversity of the guests, thanks Lex for doing this! Not sure if you take recommendations for guests, but I'd love to see Hinton (guessing you've already asked him), or people like Tibshirani/Hastie about statistical learning, Michael I. Jordan, Tamara Munzner on Data Visualization. Keep up the good work!
Excellent interview and Lex-you are a top notch interviewer...thoughtful, allowing the interviewee plenty of time to answer questions, etc. I also really enjoyed Steve Kotkin....this was the 2nd interview I've watched by this man in 2 days and I learned alot. Thank you so much!
O man! Great! Is he doing a public event in town? I live in Weymouth lol. I’ve been watching a lot of Stephen Kotkin’s lectures and book briefings on RU-vid lately, coincidentally, and it’s great to see “two world” collide, in a sense. This guy is lauded as possibly the man most knowledgeable of Stalin etc.
