I really enjoyed this conversation with Stephen. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 3:10 - Do all human beings crave power? 11:29 - Russian people and authoritarian power 15:06 - Putin and the Russian people 23:23 - Corruption in Russia 31:30 - Russia's future 41:07 - Individuals and institutions 44:42 - Stalin's rise to power 1:05:20 - What is the ideal political system? 1:21:10 - Questions for Putin 1:29:41 - Questions for Stalin 1:33:25 - Will there always be evil in the world?
Спасибо большое тебе Лекс за этот подкаст! Уже посоветовал его друзьям, кто интересуется искусственным интеллектом 😅 Этот эпизод очень символичный - 20 лет назад Путин стал главой России (1 января 2000 года). Сейчас выросло целое поколение молодых людей, кто видел президентом только его. Все больше людей считает, что эпоха Путина - это время упущенных возможностей. Мы всерьез могли стать второй Норвегией и совершить экономическое чудо. Но что-то пошло не так, сейчас мы все больше понимаем, что конкретно. Я надеюсь, что довольно скоро народ России одумается, уберет режим Путина и построит нормальное демократическое общество. С Новым годом! Желаю всего самого хорошего в этом году! Успехов!
I think you missed an opportunity to bring in the political ideas of Chomsky - anarcho-syndicalism is an alternative to capitalism in a modern industrialized democratic society, and not only in theory (he refers to the anarcho-syndicalist society in Spain that was crushed in the late 1930s). There is nothing essential or inherent about capitalism to humanity or human society.
I would say, keep it up with the lack of interruption, I like this rolling of ideas. I find it refreshing to hear the punch line of the thought process when not interrupted with another question. I like the format. Keep it up.
I'm really impressed with the interview. Even though at times you were clearly stuttering, you covered yourself well and asked a food question. The interview improves as it goes on. Very well done.
I would say, keep it up with the lack of interruption, I like this rolling of ideas. I find it refreshing to hear the punch line of the thought process when not interrupted with another question. I like the format. Keep it up.
Truly. It also means hes really paying attention, which can and might be hard to do especially when u might have several questions and points your trying to get across to the audience
"Calm, clear, concise" is 2/3 the definition of the word "Cogent"! Just replace concise for convincing" ****This is something that caught my eye. I am not trying to "teach" at you new vocabulary words.****
As a Russian, it's very insightful to see Stephen speaking. His intuition behind Russian power is even more right than of many Russians I know. And another point I noticed is that unlike many other western media I saw, Stephen does not try to offend Russian's political system, but rather explains what pros and cons it has. Very interesting watch.
Indeed, he is very prominent historian. He has been to late Soviet Union several times, he himself got acquainted with those communist party monsters like Ligachyev and observed the situation from inside. His book about the fall of Soviets is really great and down to facts rather than ideology. And, beside of his realistic vision on today’s Putin Russia, he obviously loves russian culture and people.
I am from Romania and the liberal Westerners are both blind and hypocritical. they do not understand the seduction and attraction Putin has in Russian society especially on educated people that do not agree at all with Putin ideas. they think everything is based on oppression and repression without seeing the fundamentals of Putin regime. the same way they ignored and still ignore the way Trump seduced poor white people to vote for him while ruining their lives
Listening to historians is always mind boggling for me, it reminds me how easy it is for us to ignore the consequential outcomes that we could draw from history as we move forward a a species. Thanks Lex! Great conversation with Stephen Kotkin.
@Mark Smith -- so sorry. I didn't realize you were a Russia scholar. My mistake. It's healthy to treat books like football teams, as you apparently do.
When I listen to Mr. Kotkin and read his books he always challenges me. His clarity of thought is refreshing. I also appreciate this moderator for not interrupting.
I find myself in awe of Steven Kotkin, but Lex Fridman's interview style is so sensitive and intelligent that it shows the interviewee to best advantage. Not every day I spend an hour and a half listening to an interview.
I just love the part where he just lists of these questions he would like to ask Putin and Stalin. I believe we rarely think of them and other leaders as people and how the nature of their occupation impacts them as a human beings. Stephen literally managed to humanise two figures that I otherwise look at as despotic overlords. Also, being from Romania - a former communist country - I really hope people from Western societies realise what a gift they'd been given by not having to deal with the consequences of such a regime. Please protect your democracies and don't fall in the trap of extremism of any kind, be it left or right.
Unfortunately in this generation, they do not know what we have. And even some of the older generation have lost appreciation for it. We are on a horrible path, that history tells us, will not have a good outcome.
Kotkin makes a point of this often, it is important to not dehumanize evil. Because then you lose track of how humans become "evil" and repeat their mistakes
@@Blendletan The first thing I always think of when I see someone like Putin, Trump, or any power hungry leader is think that they once had their nappies changed too! Second thing I always think is you too must sit down on the toilet and go for a poo. It helps to level the playing field! 🤣
I admire how Professor Kotkin structures his explanation of the subject. Absolutely masterful. He captures my curiosity. I listen to him for hours and enjoy every minute.
Thanks Frank. I agree. I could listen to Kotkin for hours and hours. He is very unique - calm, concise, encyclopedic memory, remains as neutral as possible, just says it as it is. He's a huge gift to the world.
Could have listened for another hour and a half. The truth is always more interesting, subtle and human then the narratives we hear in this country about Russia.
Kotkin is a brilliant mind. Take away messages: The inefficiency of our political system is a feature, not a bug. Competition is the foundation of almost all healthy systems, be it political or not. Public discourse and limited government are the only way to sustain a political system on the long term. Lessons that the world needs to hear over and over again...
What makes this episode so great is that there is zero fluff. He doesn't go down any path that isn't important to the topic at hand. Hard to fill an hour and half that way. Props to this guy.
I actually learn and retain information from people like him. His way of talking keeps the mind engaged without overwhelming it with information. That was a fascinating listen. Thanks Lex and Stephen.
Heeeelp 😂. I'm addicted to Stephen Kotkin's narration of history. Been at it for five hours!!!. Feels like litsening to my grandfather talk about political history. First time a soft spoken historian had my complete attention for hours and hours. Rational, captivating and informative. 👏
Stephen Kotkin has presented the most accurate and open interpretation of contemporary life in Russia. I have looked many years for such an analysis. Thank you for this incredible interview.
I’m a huge Kotkin fan. I own all his books and have seen all his videos. I am new to this channel. I consider this interview to be one of Kotkin’s most enlightening and I attribute that to the OUTSTANDING questions put to him by this interviewer. Very well done. So often interviewers come with generic questions and let the interview flow where it will. But the preparation demonstrated by your questions distinguished this interview from the rest. I particularly liked your big picture questions such as, “What would you ask these world leaders?”, and the questions that gave rise to Kotkin’s observation that the contradictions in practice of Leninism are inherent in Marxism itself even if Marx’s ideology calls for all the benefits of eliminating Capitalism and none of the drawbacks. This is the “nuclear bomb without civilian casualties” analogy. Outstanding interview...I’m a subscriber starting today. For those looking to read more about Stalin or Communism in Russia/Soviet Union, you cannot so much better than Kotkin’s two published biographies of Stalin. For your own sake, steer clear of less rigorous biographers like Sebag Montefiore. Kotkin limits his sources only to contemporaneous written texts so it is based on history as it unfolds rather than people’s biased recollections years later which are inevitably colored by subsequent events.
Stephin Kotkin is a national treasure! His translation of history (and power) into our world today is real and based on a very well informed reality. He is in a respected category of contributors to society that is very small indeed. While your dislike for Putin did sneak through your interview was outstanding in allowing Kotkin to answer the questions (which were excellent). It was extremely informative. Thank you.
Thanks 😊 Lex ! That’s so great you extend Your channel for great minds ! Hope you may do russian subtitles , it is so needed today for Russia to hear more about past & future !
Thank you Mr Kotkin for spelling out the obvious: that the USA and the western democracies belong together and should stand together for freedom, tolerance, and true progress. Thanks again.
Many thanks Mr. Fridman, this has come to me like divine grace because although you talk mostly of Russia and America without even a subconscious thought about India, still this conversation is 100% related to the present situation here. We are under a highly authoritarian government and just as the respected guest of your podcast states that unquestioned authoritarianism breeds extremism and results in more mistakes than normal, we are facing some intolerable blunders of our ministers. To name a few, Demonetisation, Goods and Services Tax, Political laws, and the ongoing madness of Citizenship and National Security. Thank you, I found much useful content and context through this. GODSPEED.
@May Day Hi. I most certainly am saying that. India is definitely an autocratic rule for the last 6 years. It is reaching new heights of fascism these days. The ruling party is on a rampage, targetting students and intellectuals, ordering police to shoot openly on protestors, ministers openly provoking their young party workers to shoot and kill the people who oppose the government. It is unbelievable what is happening here. The future has two aspects, a near future and a distant future. The near future is depressive as the ruling party, the BJP, has four more years in power and they are going to continue the ongoing madness progressively. This is their ideology to make India into a religious state, A Hindu Raashtra they say. On the other hand, the distant future is quite extraordinary I imagine. This is because the present disturbance has brought to surface a definitive ideology to counter this disturbance which is the Spirit of our constitution. Also that the educated youth of the country has begun to stand firm against the aggression of the state while abiding by the restrictions of the constitution. Students are chanting the Preamble of the Constitution all over the nation.This as a whole is sure to breed a new wave of torch bearers of democracy that shall lead the country in a few years from now.
@Übermensch My friend you are at the lowest level of argument in the chronology, which, im sure you do not know, is "Name Calling". I would like to discuss with you when you might grow to the higher levels, the chances of which seem poor. God bless you.
Not fair, he's far more intelligent than that. I imagine a New Jersey encyclopedia as one where the cast of "Jersey Shore" wrote the entire thing. Probably more like a pamphlet actually.
1:26:06 this is the best explanation I’ve ever heard of control-freaks, power seekers, etc.. People ignore the rush/drug/addiction side of controlling people. Most of us have no control over our environment and habits, so we have a hard time imagining that control can be a negative narcotic-style problem. This helps us understand the rare freaks who have so much power that they actually can control almost everything around them indefinitely
just look at how much emotional abuse is in a marriage. you marry a person to be happy and end up in a constant fight without leaving or making it better. tyranny starts at home
In addition to the addiction due to the rush of exercising power there is unfortunately for some a compulsive narcissistic psychological illness that can drive some to exercise power in truly abusive way while feeling deeply guilt and self-loathing inside, only to project all on the subjects of that abuse. Lastly but not least there is fear and paranoia factor to holding authoritarian power where one becomes further and further isolated, self-absorbed, and with no ability to trust in anyone for fear they wish to usurp your power or avenge any of your actions taken through your powers. That becomes a power psychology arms race in the internal person of the authoritarian and the external interpersonal relationships with all those around the authoritarian.
This is possibly the first and only episode I've heard that hasn't delved into technology or AI, and I really appreciated it. Kotkin spoke with such clarity and eloquence, you've gotta get him back on the show to discuss another topic. This episode is in my top three all time for sure.
A fascinating account made by the keen eye of an experimented historian. Definitively a first class interview, informative and well achieved. Thanks again
Please have this man on again. To be honest, I watch your podcast mainly for the more "STEM-like" folks but nevertheless, his exposition and expertise on the subject engaged me thoroughly. Thank you again for just having these conversations in general. Now I'm going to smash that subscribe button and be on my merry little way.
What wonderful insight. An outstanding episode in a long list of heavywieghts. You allow your guests to speak and let them take the lead. I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers.
This guy GETS it, and his advice for Russians (to build institutions with effective checks and balances for the long haul) is just as applicable for Americans. We're lucky to have the few remaining checks and balances we do, and we're in deep trouble if we continue to elect candidates who undermine these restrictions.
Wow! That was such an interesting conversation. I've recently read The Gulag Archipelago and that story burnt a hole in my heart learning about what happened to all those people. Thanks for posting :)
Would you consider this fact: the writer of the Gulag Archipelago and his wife claimed the book was not a historical telling but an experiment in story telling. Or would you claim I was lying/biased just because it disagrees with the accepted narrative of the USSR?
J N I would say you are historically ignorant because independent of the GA, there is overwhelming evidence the USSR was a horrible regime. Not to mention we know the author actually suffered under the USSR, why would he lie? You are probably mis interpreting a quote or not understanding what he meant by “experiment”
@@quinntolchin3080 A reason he would lie is because western states would AND DID fund his literature on account of it serving as anti Russian propaganda. Not to say it was all lies, I'm sure there are truths in it. But you would also be incentivized to appeal to your western backers by painting the most grim images. Exactly how North Korean defectors tell horror stories about NK and get payed for it, even if it cant be verified, and is sometimes even contradictory. And occasionally when the stories are disproved nobody in the media mentions it. Its funny because i probably research the USSR more than the average person and a lot of what is said is straight up false or twisted. Not everything, because the USSR did do things wrong but most people have no sensibility as to what that really was. They are all on the anti soviet band wagon, choo choo!! To have an unbiased view on such a controversial topic is hard. Especially when that topic, The USSR, is used extensively in ALL forms of media to contrast and exalt "western supremacy". This is especially toxic when our country, the USA, has been and actively is possibly the worst human rights violators on the planet. Really makes you think as to why we have to hate this boogeyman called the USSR. Maybe it's so we don't look at ourselves. The points is not to be pro this and anti that. It's to be unbiased and truthful.
@@jnr2349 I agree that western media definitely is not completely truthful when it comes to journalism and it did probably serve their agenda to promote the GA, but on the other hand the soviets did not even have freedom of journalism and actively suppressed any ideas contrary to their narrative which is the issue. You could say that the gulags were grossly exaggerated but thats doing a disservice to the thousands that were robbed of their voice. The issue of power in a capitalistic society is very real and leads to inequality but its a much more approachable than the alternative of never having the possibility of recognizing tyranny. Maybe if you would have read The Gulag Archipelago you would understand that the author purposely undermines the perceivable immorality of the camps to instead question the method of subjugation.
@@altvibr I wish the USSR would have done media and culture differently. But, they did no different than the US did and still does. Do you really think there has been free journalism in US? They claim there is. It's obvious that's not true from all the people who get stomped on for telling the truth. Even kids movies in the US are just thinly veiled pro military forces propaganda (looking at you comic book films). And I did read some of GA a while ago, but it was so blatantly propagandistic and dramatic that it was annoying me and I stopped.
That was a great podcast. Really insightful. I really like how you allowed you the speaker to talk so much. Many times I wish more podcasters would do this. Thanks again :)
that closing quote was powerful. Thank you for the people you have on the podcast! they are great interviews, and as am not a voracious reader, i am a voracious listener. I do enjoy the content you have shared so far. stay awesome!
really enjoyed this discussion. I've been viewing this channel to glom AI, physics, robotics, maths, so I thought I'd be doing some skip and fast fwrd, but this has been one of my fave episodes: bravo & thank you, Lex & Stephen!
Lex, could you try to interview Grigori Perelman - the man who refused one million dollar prize for proving Poincaré conjecture? His mindset is a big misery to many people myself included.
Love the diversity of the guests, thanks Lex for doing this! Not sure if you take recommendations for guests, but I'd love to see Hinton (guessing you've already asked him), or people like Tibshirani/Hastie about statistical learning, Michael I. Jordan, Tamara Munzner on Data Visualization. Keep up the good work!
I would say, keep it up with the lack of interruption, I like this rolling of ideas. I find it refreshing to hear the punch line of the thought process when not interrupted with another question. I like the format. Keep it up.
I really enjoy hearing him speak. Actually watched some of his lectures and various college campuses. His tone and flow of the use of words is easy to listen to. Knows how to hold an audience.
Absolutely fantastic podcast. Lex, you are perfect for this. Your curiosity about what it means to be human will drive this podcast to truly awesome places. Thank you!