The whole topic of Vintage vs Modern sound when it comes to synths is very complex, but in this video I explore a few ideas I had for adding a little bit of unpredictability and a vintage vibe to the sounds from the Moog One.
This is really awesome and years after getting a One I still think this is a great video. I try to explain to people all the time that the new analog synths all have a sort of sterile sound to them and a lot of people say I’m crazy. But yeah, sitting down at my Trident, Polymoog, etc there is just so much character and life. I absolutely love the One and I sold all my other new poly analog synths since getting it but the vintage stuff isn’t going anywhere. Thanks for explaining a bunch of those more obscure options in the matrix.
This Mod-Matrix setup is brilliant! Well done! You could save 3 slots by just setting the "pitch variance" parameter (via the Polyphony More-Button) to 5-15cents by liking. As I also have the Prophet10 I found out, that the pitch variance via the Prophet's Vintage Knob also happens on a voice basis, exactly like in the Moog One via Pitch Variance (so it doesn't vary the pitch difference relative between the oscs, only between voices). Keep up the good work Tim!
This is genius. Thank you very much for doing this video. Love all your vids, btw. Definitely going to use this feature in the studio. One of my band members always complains about modern synths sounding too perfect or sterile, but I think he’ll be completely happy with these voice variances applied to some patches on my Moog One.
That´s so deep ,you are a true master of synths.The ONE is truly a beast and on the microlevel of functions for an analog synth there is nothing close to it, as you showed.BIG like Tim.
I have to thank you for sharing the work you’ve done here, Tim. It’s opened my mind relative to how these deep functions within the Mod Matrix can greatly expand the versatility of the M1. I worked these into an existing patch and dialed something in that gave me chills. Your videos are valuable and very much appreciated.
Hi Tim! One important thing to notice as well is that the default settings for envelopes are not “vintage” at all. Typically no vintage synth had linear attack curves. Using exponential instead really alters the perception of some brassy patches for example. On the other hand, logarithmic attack can really be beneficial for some snappy bass sounds. As for the rest: I totally concur, I have been using this kind of per-voice variability on pitch/filter/EGs since my Andromeda. On my One I tend to simply use the Random Keyed values directly, not making them bipolar. But typically I will use RK1 for EG1 attack, RK2 for decay. Then, another thing: adding a bit of Hold phase in the filter envelope can also help, and I believe this is typically happening on a Minimoog. Anyway, thanks for the video: I always wanted to make one explanatory with demonstrations of my One vintage patches, just because so many people kept telling me: the One sucks, I’ve tried it in a shop, it’s stiff, cold, bla bla bla.... And I always had a hard time explaining them that with the right programming skills you could achieve all the vintage you want, and more. By the way, that is exactly what the Sequential vintage knob does on the P5 Rev4. The only nuance being: the P5 doesn’t have linear envelopes by default :). Cheers!
Ah, yes, I also forgot 2 things I use in my “Vintage recipes”: first the wave angle, which has a key impact on the “bright” feel that some might find “cold” as opposed to “vintage warm” (even though getting the wave angle the other way down to its minimum increases high harmonics and enables extreme fuzz/sizzle which can also sound vintage :) ). Typically I sometimes use the 3rd envelope to vary the wave angle: for example I want a smooth warm attack and then a sustain full of sizzle . The second thing is if you want more bass on some of the chords. I do a simple thing: modulate VCA level with a negative amount of Key Pitch. Typically -100 or -200%. And then of course, on top of all that you still have the 4 LFOs so you can have very slow tiny amounts on top of the per-voice variance applied to the pitch :) Cheers!
Thanks for the great deep dive video Tim on the Moog One. As you mention most of us are after that "vintage" sound but not to the point of the effect being unusable. I'm excited to get in there and experiment with it. Thanks for the inspiration!
Fantastic as always Tim. Logical, rational and an exceptional end result. Moog really out to take your idea/solution and create an onboard 'vintage' setting/algorithm, especially considering the price of the One. Anyway, bravo and thank you for your hard work.
Very impressive Tim. This reminds me of an alternative approach called "Voice component modeling" which also tries to achieve the same goal of creating vintage sounding patches on, for example, the Prophet Rev2.
Excellent Tim- A well presented and competently thought out tutorial which has a huge impact on what is an already fantastic synth. I own a Moog one and was aware of some of the features but implementing these as mod templates- what's not to love. Keep this level of content coming - superb. Who would give this a thumbs down??
It is amazing how much my ears love this ear candy. Keep making these. Now to get my Roland Fantom to sound old-everything in the instrument is clean, clear, crisp, cool, and ever-ready. I don't use any of them till after I add the techniques used here. Love this stuff. Now I want a Moog One -The big expensive One then go camp out next to my studio recorder inputs for the winter. Ah-Retirement is great. LETS invent the knob that takes our setting, mutates it, spreads to random other oscillators, then add another knob called Masking that pulls the modulators settings back to normal. One can dream.
I love your videos Tim. they have such good flow. stuff i actually want to hear rather than just bland specs...and your Minilogue OSCS are badass. thanks for it all :)
Perfect topic Tim. Yeah, I've been holding off the One due to this reason. As an owner of several vintage polys I have been verrrry hesitant. That said, I did get to demo the M1 @ Superbooth last year and thought it was really nice....maybe some day.
The variability mod makes most of the patches sound significantly better! Much more engaging, and they were already great patches... Never thought of doing this to envelopes either
That was fascinating and also to read the comments. I love my Moog One and this had not concerned me as my previous experience was mostly with digital synths. Listening to the motion created with your modulation made the patches more attractive and dynamic to my ear. With the processing capability of the One, there is no reason why Moog could no introduce this as a menu option in an appropriate place. I like though the option to have tuning and timing modulation rather than having it forced upon me as would be with a 70’s era synth. Thanks for a great tutorial.
Any synth with Voice Number or Key Random as a mod source can accomplish Voice Modeling - Moog One, Deepmind, upcoming PolyBrute. Also, synths with key-stepped mod sequencers like Prophet Rev2 can accomplish per-voice modeling. The Rev2 can actually do it with an insane amount of precision: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jB9HG3k3vvQ.html
Best Tim, thank you for this informative video! I really enjoy it when you show me new tricks with the Moog One! I wonder if the next firmware update would include Mod Destinations to the FX and the Osc Detune... This would turn the One in a polydimensional gem! Imagine LFO adjusting speed of the delay FX, or the Shimmer pitch, or decay... I also wonder if the processing inside the One is strong enough to eventually add some digi-FM or Wavetable stuff! They could also increase the stereo spread possibilities, like a location sequencer, you create your own pan sequence, and it would always do that exact pan direction. With this you could create counter-melodies or harmony that would hit on the almost same panning location, first note -90 second +90 on synth 1 and second synth -80 + 80 -70 + 70 -60 + 60 to 0 to synth 2 to create a dimensional swirl... Anyway I really love the One, to me it always sounds like a soft cotton cloudy synth, like you are walking on soft clouds sort of vibe, and when twisting some knobs it can pull you towards space, or pull you towards planet earth... I should write a novel about it.
For me, the old Prophet-5 oscillator pitches on the SSMs seemed to be over quite long periods, maybe 30 seconds or sometimes smaller intervals, so beats would come in and out between the oscillator pairs. then there were variations from voice to voice between adjacent notes.
(Pause video) I paused the video to thank you for diving so deep into the Mod Matrix. You are the first that I know of to do so. (hit Like button) The Mod Matrix is the Moog One’s secret sauce. It’s powerful and it’s complex yet you did a great job describing it (hit SUBSCRIBE button). Well, I’m going to watch the rest of your presentation now (grab coffee).
thanks for the nice ideas and very well explained! Just to share my experience: i tried to do it directly without var scaling, using function ( s+C)^2 and between 4.xx and 5.xx percent works great too with osc
I agree that we need to decouple from the notion that the vintage sounds has to be tied to the way those "imprecisions" were introduced into the sound. We are definitely looking into some "micro modulation" scenarios here more than magic from faulty engineering. We can replicate that sound in an analog domain without the problems that originally created them. Shout out to David Smith for first giving access to that level of configuration in his synths (you can do that on a Prophet Rev 2) and now even more accessible with the "Vintage Knob". This man is both the past and the future of synthesis!
I very much like your approach and the level of detail when you explore and compare the features and capabilities of the synths. Made me buy the Novation Peak and I am still very satisfied with it. I am wondering how you find the time to dive into all these details and produce such great videos?
35:30 I can definitely hear notes floating in and out because of the envelope variations, which are set fairly high at 20% on the parameter. You can hear sharper and softer attacks, etc, especially on patch 4 and 5. It gives off beat accents on patch 4 for example.
Really great Tim. I reckon Moog could do well to hide a lot of this under some kind of syntactic sugar... i.e. just like Sequential did with the Vintage knob. Gonna happen in a future update I reckon.
Yep, I'm hoping all synths (digital and analog) incorporate per-voice modeling in the future. It's the most underrated, and sonically significant aspect of vintage poly character. Per voice offsets to tuning, envelopes, filter and amp performance.
@@neilloughran4437 For sure! About two years ago, I set out to record many classic synths... I recorded hundreds of samples from SEM 4-voice, OBX, OBXa, MemoryMoogs, Prophets, Jupiters, CS-80, PolySix and many more synths... I analyzed the oscillator tuning per voice, and over multiple octaves, and that was what led me to write up the paper on Voice Component Modeling (www.VoiceComponentModeling.com)
25:07 That modulation design is very clever (and seems to be like the vintage knob on a prophet 5). I've found that changing the wave angle modulation (hard-wired to LFO 3) can give a pleasing drift, in and out of perfect alignment. It's nice that you can save mod matrix settings once you've created your masterpiece.
I'm really hoping to try this kind of thing on the Hydrasynth. It would be great to see how these kinds of variations can be used in various digital synths, which often have a lot of function optionality.
technically its already part of the Analog FL of hydrasynth ( turn up analog feel and listen to self oscillation alone with voice in rotate mode, also listen to the oscillators. analog feel effects a ton of parameters all per voice.)
Much food for thought, here. Thank you for this Tim As you have pointed out, the Dreadbox Abyss definitely has a 'quality' about it... I can never put my finger on what that is. Also, I have all three variations of the Nyx - the first 500 of MKI were TH and thereafter, in the run of I, a mixture of TH and SMT. MKII was completely SMT. To my ears, they all sound noticeably different without the added reverb - not better or worse... but different. The DSI OB6 can most certainly get you in to SEM territory, it is not a perfect recreation and I do not think that it tries to be - but, the Notch filter is heaven sent.
Very nice subtle randomized detuning effect especially noticeable on the longer sustained patches. Impressive mod matrix on the Moog One. Is it possible to slightly detune the oscillators in the .01, .02. .03... increments to get a similar but not randomized, of course, effect? Saving the mod matrix set up is a great feature.
One thing to note about the filters: They are pretty "floaty" from voice to voice already, so the keyed random values may not be needed on the cutoff (though I like the idea of having it on the resonance!) While I hope they can tighten the tuning on the filters in the future, I think the current way the filters behave sounds amazing, so being able to revert to this state would be a must if they do update them!
Hey Tim! How is the sound of the Behringer System 100 in this vintage vs sterile context in your opinion? I am interested on getting one, haven't tried one yet myself but by the reviews that I have checked on RU-vid, I really like the sound precisely because it doesn't sound sterile to me. It sounds really rich in my ears but still it does not sound too vintagey, I find its sound as a good balance between stable behavior and non-sterile richness, would really appreciate your opinion :)
@ErsatzMoose Yes, it's weird, isn't it? Dave Smith said his ears were fried after too many loud gigs in the 70s, so maybe ears of the vintage guys are less sensitive to the differences than they were. Plus, the younger people are probably not as tuned in to the old analog sound, since it was not part of their youth, so it's probably less part of their cultural need. The reliability of the instrument came first from a customer services point of view. When you think Dave Smith let some customers swap their Rev2 Prophet-5 s for Rev3s around 1980 at no charge, it must have cost Sequential a fortune to keep these gigging musicians happy.
this is a very interesting look at some of the deeper levels of the moog one. i've been learning my matriarch the past weeks. in terms of "vintage" sound qualities, where does the matriarch fall on that spectrum? are you going to do any more videos with your matriarch? if you still have it that is.
I've been doing something like this using the random keyed values to add variance to pitch, filter and envelopes and saving the settings into mod matrix preset. I hadn't thought to use the wave functions to make them bipolar though and instead have set the C to random bipolar and the function to a heavy slew but this looks like it would work better. 20 mod slots is allot however I have honestly run into the limits a few times with some tricks like this. I hope Moog expands the mod slots in a future update or even better, allow mod matrix settings to be encapsulated into a macro which could be nested into a single mod slot. Of course adding a "Vintage" setting like Dave Smiths would be a simpler solution. The complexity of the One almost allows you to replicate features that haven't been added to the firmware.
@@explodingPSYCH You have 20 rows maximum which to be honest isn't much given all the things you can do in the matrix. Moog could of course give us more rows but evaluating all these modulations in realtime takes up processing power...
I have recently sold my yamaha CS-50 to buy a Prophet 5 reissue but now i am torn between that and the moog one with 8 voices, what would you recommend between the two?
I remember when DCOs first arrived (on the Roland Juno 60) and were celebrated as a big improvement over the pitch drift of VCOs. It reminds me of the arrival of CDs that eliminated the pops, clicks, and surface noise of vinyl records. Recreating analog drift on synths seems somewhat analogous to sampled vinyl surface noise on some sample-based synths used.to add the vintage vinyl surface noise to a sound. May seem very strange to the uninitiated.
Hey Mr. Tim! Love your videos. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Hey guys! I have a question to Moog One owners. In the manual it says that TRS cables are recommended for L and R out. All other Moogs have the TS cable for audio out. Also Matriarch has L and R out for TS cables. In the manual of Moog One they write that TS cable can also be used but it is not recommended. Can anyone explain why is it so and what could be potential problem with TS cables? I wrote even to Moog but have received just an answer that TS can be used. No explanation why the manual says something different. Would be grateful for your insight! Best to all Moogers!
Thank you so much for sharing your ideas with us! The way I see it now, having three variables is not enough. The more variables, the more randomness. Randomness is implemented better on the Alesis Andrmeda (akey or voice based modulation source).It's a shame there the sequencer has no random play feature. Otherwise the sequencer lanes could be used to add some quasi randomness. Again, the Alesis Andromeda is more advanced. I mentioned the Andromeda in a discussion with Moog on user operated tuning but the reply I got, was that the One is much more complex machine. So....?
Instead of fine tuning VAR 1 below 1%, use a function (from the transform column) to divide the value of VAR 1... and it reminds me the Kurzweil K2x00 VAST modulation stuff.
Thank you for a great video. It's slightly ridiculous though that we should have to do this to our modern synths to get them to actually sound like musical instruments. This is why I still go to my Korg Trident for poly-things in my studio. The other polys are just to sterile most of the time. (Don't own a One yet though)
Not really. It’s called programming and the M1 you can program for days. Why wouldn’t you rather be able to just program this feature. That is a bonus. So you would rather have it sound “vintage” like that without any sound designing? If that’s the case than just get a real vintage synth where it will do it naturally and forget this sound design instrument. The M1 is amazing because the possibilities are endless, but sometimes it takes work to get it to sound exactly like you want. Also, this feature takes no time at all to put it. Plus, you can save it and use on whatever patch you want. I’ve worked with this trick and It’s pretty neat, but my particular Moog one... 95% of the time it doesn’t need it this feature. It’s by far the best sounding instrument I own. If I had to do this trick to get my M1 to sound like a “musical instrument” I wouldn’t own it. If you want a Vintage synth than get a Vintage one. Get the new reissue Prophet 5. I have one and it definitely wins in the Vintage realm, but still isn’t close to the M1. It’s still shocking how amazing it sounds every time I turn it on. And I have 10+ synths. Modern and Vintage ones. But I don’t see the point in complaining about a little sound design to make our modern synths sound somewhat Vintage. Or I guess, just use an older Vintage synth for that sound. I use my Minimoog Model D when I want that sound.
@@TimShoebridge interesting? I wonder how they solved it? I’d love to see a simple recalibration routine like my old Obie Matrix. PS, love you vids, great music and pacing and nicely artistic. Please check out my channel and let me know what you think? I do big, weird modular patches and am always looking for more subs! 🙀
I've discovered something strange here: When I load this saved "vintage"-mod via "load (add)" into an existing mod-matrix of a patch then it has no audible effect at all. As like the Moog One discards all of the new loaded modulations. When loading it via "load (replace)" then everything works like it should. Does anybody else has this too? Is this a known bug?
There seem to be bugs when adding modulations via the load option. Check out any vars, are any of them missing? I find the first var always disappears and needs to be added back in manually...
Relevant to Tim's intro topic, I'm really happy the the Curtis chips (CEM) and the Dave Rossum designed SSM (now duplicated as SSI) are hitting the markets. The Prophet rev4 and a whole myriad of upcoming synths are taking advantage of these legacy circuits and it truly makes a difference when coupled with a randomizing of the envelopes.. As an owner of a 2016 Oberheim SEM Pro and a vintage Oberheim TwoVoice TVS-1a, I can assure you they are not on the same planet. The SEM Pro, albeit 100% analog, is clinical in comparison. If you want to hear an amazing comparison of the 2 circuits that I mentioned above, go check out the newest J3PO comparison of the Prophet rev4 to the Prophet 6 (linked in my reply). The rev 4 contains both of those circuits. And Tim nailed it in this video - Dave Smith is de-humanizing the envelopes, rather than just the pitch (slop) which is what our ear desires. This is another great Shoebridge video.
What I would absolutely love to see is someone with a prophet 5 rev 3 and rev 4 to desolder and swap as many identical components as possible between the two and see if the sound changes. I’m sure it would be an absolute waste of time but would be fun to see
@@soulSaysHi I've also own one (^^) and despite loving its sound I've also felt that the sound lacked "something". And it is - for my ears - exactly what Tim described as a too stable, almost "digital" / VST like sound and - also for my eyes - this mod does correct this in a lovely way! Just like the vintage knob on the new Prophet 5 Rev4 does.
Quick question. Sometimes when I try to load the mod matrix preset, var1/2/3 disappears from the 1/2/3 mod and you have to redo it every time. This happens when you click load (add) and load (replace)
Yes I have a similar issue - the first var assignment disappears when I choose add but it seems to be ok if I choose replace. I think there is a bug relating to vars when loading matrix settings, hopefully it'll get fixed.
I wish synth companies would add preset tuning Algorithms based on different old synths that could be saved on a per sound preset. The deepmind and the novation has an over all randomized that affects the over all patch not just the pitch
Yes I think that selectable per-patch tuning imperfections would be a great idea. Not on a per-patch basis but Roland added an algorithm to their Jupiter X/XM to simulate oscillator drift during warm-up but generally they got maligned for it on social media as being a "dumb idea". Personally I think it was going in the right direction, the more realism we can add the better, of course you don't have to use it if you don't want to.
@@TimShoebridge excellent same same!! I was very excited to see this being used!! what a year this has been for putting amazing (and nearly affordable) tools into the hands of (40 year old) kids!!!...now if only that B2600 come for Christmas? ;-)
at 1:40 wanted to sing this on top.. "Wandering in the chaos the battle has left We climb up the mountain of human flesh To a plateau of green grass, and green trees.. full of life" great results, my guess is if you tried 0.03 - 0.04% it would sound very much how voice to voice varies in my OB-Xa. one thing that is hard to emulate is: each of the oscillators on old polys (for example 16 on OBXA) has relatively fast brownian motion in pitch. i measured amplitude wobble btwn +/-1 and +/-2 cents . easy to see on tuner. so the "perceived" pitch is nothing but a statistical center of this motion. now, this is uncorrelated btwn osc. so techically it would require 16 independent brownian modulation sources to achieve. often referred to as "vintage pitch jitter". i believe there is some of that in modern designs too, but problem is cpu autotunes them continously to perfection and irons out whatever natural jitter could possibly appear. never the less, the random offset technique shown here is a significant advancement towards more organic tone, when that is desired.
You can use whatever you want. I’m using the mod wheel so I can quickly turn the effect on or off for the video, but it’s entirely up to you how you want to engage the effect within the mod matrix. It could be permanently on for your patches if you want, or controlled some other way than the mod wheel....
You could also use S&H (set at a very low rate) from any LFO with Note Reset on Multi-Trig. This essentially gives you a Random Keyed value and it is bipolar. This would allow you to skip the VARS inputs altogether saving you space for other MODs. But I guess this takes one of your LFOs...
@@soulSaysHi That's true, unless you detune them slightly to begin with? I would also like to add that they're not actually tightly tuned per each voice anyways, so I think it is overkill to get 3 LFOs dedicated to detune each oscillator. Depends on what you're trying to do I guess. As far as I know, the Moog One is not as tight as the Prophet 6 so it already comes with a vintage flavour to it anyways...
What you've illustrated here is amazing. This is the way this machine should have sounded on release day. The Moog 2 (when it comes out) should do this automatically. By default. If Moog had shown the instrument making these sounds you got here, they'd of sold an insane amount of units and it would've made it A Lot harder for people to say "not worth the price tag". And yes, as you also hinted, the processing power needs to be more immaculate. If this is going to be more than some kind of average synthesizer, but a Scientifically Accurate precision device... it's internal computer has to do more than keep up. Heck, make the Moog 2 $10,000 And this is no slight to Moog, the 1 is an Engineering Masterpiece for modern polyphonic synths, but... the #1 complaint I've heard said about it, and my own as well, is that it just doesn't sound like it should, AND... you pointed out Exactly what the solution is! :) When I listen to a synthesizer, I hear the musicality. I appreciate the musicianship, I listen to the possibility for variations in stability, even. But the #1 thing that does it for me, is that I have to be HYPNOTIZED When I listen to the sounds that come out of the OB6... WOW So... when I see what the Moog 1's price is, I'm going to need it to sound AT LEAST two times better. And this is no slight to Moog. It's market honesty. I think if they take this feedback seriously, which we've all been saying, the Moog 2 could be one of the greatest synthesizers OF ALL TIME
If the Moog One can do this, as demonstrated, then why need a Moog Two. I disagree that it should be like this by default? Why? Better start precise and remove that precision where you want than other way round. Moog couldn’t win. If they’d released any instrument that had this vintage vibe people would have complained that parameters varied with each key. Should more presets have explored this vibe? Well, yeah that would have helped naysayers.
be good if you showed more without silly levels of reverb.. but thanks for going into this its good for people to see this as it effects most new synths if not all ! ..I would say modern osc chips also contribute..
