@@FrancisJohnYT Sounds more like the scientific method to me. As soon as you have stronger evidence for one theory over another, there is no reason to stick with the weaker theory. Not stealing, Science!
If you look on the wiki, the way that cell-to-cell heat transfer is calculated simultaneously for every pair of cells that share an edge. And then there's some clamping applied when calculating how much a cell's DTU content can change per frame. In the extreme, four extremely hot adjacent cells will simultaneously transfer DTUs to the center cell, but will more than overflow the maximum DTU change that the center cell can experience per frame, deleting DTUs. Ways to prevent that include: > Reducing the amount of hot cells the cold cell is next to. (Drop it one tile lower) > Reducing the thermal mass difference. (Increasing the mass of the water cell, lowering the mass of the steam cells. And possibly preheating or cooling the respective cells) Other fun facts is that there is a minimum mass (not thermal) and minimum temperate difference (in Celsius, not DTU) to cause heat trasfer.
When a cell with too much heat is transferring to a cell with less heat, clamping occurs. Clamping, working as intended, should make this transfer slower. Making the transfer slower is very different from deleting heat. Clamping may be *part* of an explanation, but just pointing out that clamping is probably occurring does not explain everything that's going on here.
Then would "Clamping " and "Simultaneous Heat Transfer " risk a bad interaction? You can have situations where the four adjacents cells move more DTU's than a cell's transfer clamp allow. The phenomena happens in reverse as well with cooling when flash freezing things. Though I think cooling capacity is less bothersome than with heating things. (Liquid glass into rock gas, then reheating regolith into magma, and turning igneous rock into sand. It needs an iron volcano.) I'm curious if an extreme enough cold gradient would technically produce more heat if it underflows the clamp.
The petroleum one seems the most practical/economical to me, since you can use it to easily create a 3 tile high airseal with water+pwater in the steam chamber and has the same performance as the others without wasting materials on tempshift plates. Definitely going to incorporate it in my turbine designs.
I had a multi purpose steam room and I changed it to have a layer of petroleum at the bottom to help with conductivity. Then my steam turbines started to produce a lot more power, even maxing out. I thought they might have nerfed the cooling capacity of the steam turbine, but this explains it, thanks. I do wish they fixed these kinds of bugs, same with some mass conversion bugs. It's often hard to even notice something is wrong, and when it is how to fix it.
i usually put the outlet of the steam turbine on the aquatuner keeping it cooler but still have oil or petrol on the floor to help with heat distribution and removal from the aquatuner. one thing that may be a concern with using high pressure steam setups in with high enough pressure you can block the liquid vent periodically
My understanding of this is that with a higher mass of the steam it requires more DTU's to get the heating to get that steam up to 125C (heating 2kg of "water" vs 400kg "water"/tile). The steam turbine automatically triggers when it detects steam over 125C and cools it down to sub 100C, bringing flat cooling into the room. It shuts off as soon as all steam over 125C has been cooled down by 1C If you do not have enough heating to counteract the "flat" reduction in temperature to heat the large amount of mass faster than the turbine cools it, the room reaches a homeostasis just below 125C. I haven't done testing to prove this, it's just the way that my brain interpreted the video game logic as I've seen it so far. For me though, everything works as I would expect it to
This is amazing. No wonder the pre steel steam room I have with petroleum on the bottom performs a lot better when I upgraded it to thermium compared to others built from scratch on space mats
A guy made a cool graphic of power output vs steam room size vs steam pressure. (See the addenda). If my memory is correct, power falls with any pressure increase but falls sharply once it's at 40kg/tile or so.
@@GamersHandbook The pinned comment on my RU-vid posts have additional information that came to light after I made the video. It seems like there's a lot of that, I wish there were a way to know what everyone knew before I got them talking about it.
This bug has apparently been fixed in the latest patch. forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/119874-steam-turbine-setups-post-temp-swap-bug-fix/ Still a few other bugs you can avoid to increase efficiency but the main one should be fixed.
The game likes to delete gases when you're not paying attention. There's a couple of rules which lead to gas deletion in edge cases that actually happen all the time. The simplest way to demonstrate this I can think of is using three gases in an single tile cylinder. Hydrogen, steam, and carbon dioxide work. At the bottom of the chamber, you pump gas up to the top, and at the top, you have a vent. Might need to be a high pressure vent for some cases. The important thing is to confine the top of the chamber by making it three tiles high by. Carbon dioxide will try to fall down from the vent, steam will try to rise above carbon dioxide, and hydrogen will try to get to the top of it all. This will create a situation in which a bubble of hydrogen will cover the vent. When the vent tries to vent non-hydrogen to that square, the game will try to displace the hydrogen bubble to a legally valid location adjacent, but we confined it so that the hydrogen would have to move down to displace and there is generally going to be either steam or carbon dioxide below the hydrogen. When this occurs in this case, the hydrogen simply ceases to exist. However much mass it has and whatever temperature just disappears from the game as far as I can discern. Now, you might think this is a very different case from what you're observing with the steam room here because there's only two elements, but the same basic combination of mechanics which forces a deletion of the hydrogen can happen here. The problem is displacement. And in the high pressure steam room, you have a situation in which the maximum packet size of the steam per square has been exceeded, so when the game checks to see if it can displace packets it is going to find illegal conditions. When it tries to make room for the liquid and finds all the steam packets in the room are at max, it runs into an impossibility condition because liquid and gas can not occupy the same tile at the same time and it can not displace the steam without increasing tiles beyond their (soft) maximum. So gas or liquid or both are deleted. My bet is that steam near the vent is deleted or steam in the lower corner is deleted by the sudden appearance of the liquid in that tile; you can find out what is the case by counting the Kg in every tile in the chamber then dripping water in and recounting, and you could make a simpler model by confining it to a single tile wide steam chamber. This is also related I think to your super gas pump in which you drip out water to pump gas where the water is destroyed in the process. Your oil solution works because you basically build a displacement spring into the whole system which allows it to 'recoil' when an additional liquid is added to the chamber. You're exploiting the one-element-per-tile rule--which is one of the strongest--and the liquid vs gas rules to keep space reserved for the liquid to appear; I expect you'd see the bug reappear if you could recreate the high pressure for the oil such that no tile of steam or oil could be moved without exceeding maximum mass, moving them in a direction counter to their vector (up or side to side for steam, down or side to side for oil), or causing multiple elements to occupy the same tile. I also wanted to note that the version where you make the liquid packets smaller with the piping solution would potentially change the rate of the deleted packets.
In an experiment I performed, I found that gas deletion can occur with two elements: steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/776245097831921157/5453075217128EC67F29C190E9B6ABA2A55E648B/ I started with a giant vacuum filled room. Put a hot hydrogen 2Kg packet at the bottom and a cold (below liquidation temp) carbon dioxide 2Kg packet at the top. I ended up with 837.8 mg of carbon dioxide in less than a cycle. There's something about the carbon dioxide rapidly cycling between gas and liquid form which creates a condition in which it can't displace the hydrogen and just gets deleted instead of successfully condensing into liquid on the floor. I think an analogous condition can happen easily within the high pressure steam chamber with small amounts of liquid near its vapor point being added to the chamber.
You can go 2 ways on this problem, you either have to much heat and you WANT to use this bug, or you want power, so you avoid it. I found that water dropping on non-insulated tiles, like one lower & mesh tile + air tile as best option. It must be something with instant vaporization & insulated tiles.
The temperatures should be the same because the amount of heat produced is the same and the amount of heat removed by the turbines (should be) the same. Low pressure steam would get to equilibrium temperature much faster though. I don't think I checked the steam temperatures but if it's different then this is even weirder than I thought.
@@rodna16 I'll definitely have a close look at that when I'm back at my computer. Maybe the steam isnt dense enough for the turbine to get full bites out of it.
@@tonyadvanced6315 haven't played in a while but afaik the turbine only cares about the temp of that 2kg/s steam that is being processed, the rest is just for heat capacity so low density steam should be more efficient with aquatuners if you can get close to 200C° right?
It helps because losing a few C from 4kg of steam is nothing, losing a few C from 800kg is a lot.. and as it takes more thermal energy to replace those now missing degrees as the room temperature balances out, the more steam you have the worse it is.
I always thought the lower pressure steam generated more power because the turbine focuses on temp not dtu, and less mass heated up faster because less mass to hold the dtu... At the same but converse side it also explained why you could tame a volcano with less turbines by increasing the water mass effectively slowing the temp increase by spreading out the dtus.
Could the reason be somewhat due to the Temperature Shift Plates? When the displaced, cooler and denser steam moves to the two adjacent tiles to the temp shift plate, perhaps there is multiplied cooling going on to all the other tiles adjacent to the temp shift plate. With lower density steam this effect would not apply as much since the mass of the steam would be negligible compared to the mass of the Temp Shift Plate. Try moving or removing the shift plate near the vent and see how it goes.
I wonder if giving the water tile a third vector for heat transfer to the steam (shift the outlet a tile inward) would help. Or maybe some mesh tiles to see if the interaction tickles the code somehow.
If the pinned comment is correct I think that would make things worse, not better. The problem is that the each steam tile wants to dump more heat into the water than is allowed and the extra gets deleted. So you want to reduce the transfer area with steam. I think that's why the petrol works so well.
Addenda: 0) This seems to be fixed in the current version of the game! 👍🤘🙂 1) I tried combining various strategies, but I wasn't able to discern any benefit. 2) @Mathmanican is having a look at this. He's basically the ultimate weird-game-mechanic guru of ONI. forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/113255-stop-a-heat-deleting-bug-from-stealing-your-turbine-power/?do=findComment&comment=1280082 3) Check out /u/corrado33's experimental results. Using a BIG steam room can largely eliminate the problem. Also his approach of using a metal tile floor makes a big difference. i.postimg.cc/pTpp9TCW/more-Research.png plot.ly/~blacksilverwhite/1/ www.reddit.com/r/Oxygennotincluded/comments/dqfhia/stop_a_heatdeleting_bug_from_stealing_your/f6a3aee/?context=3 4) I used a couple tempshift plates in my steam rooms to keep the turbine output more stable for analysis. It looks like those plates may make the performance a bit worse in most cases. (Which is weird, because using all tempshift plates kinda works.)
I wonder if the ablating/flaking mechanic is at play here. It is a different type of heat transfer than normal; and it occurs when you have something above melting/boiling temperature of a solid/liquid and at least one of the materials isn't solid. It bypasses the conductivity of the materials completely. I am not too certain of the mechanics but IIRC every in game tick, it melts/boils 5kg of the on material, and it subtracts the heat required to do that from the hotter material. If there is some error in the calculation (possibly when there is less than 5kg of materials), it would delete heat.
from what i understand, because low pressures of steam has less mass per tile, the temperature is more subject to unstable fluctuations, which can mean your steam temperature sometimes drop under the 125 minimum to keep the turbine running, or swing past 200C wherein your turbine becomes less energy efficient.
After watching this video i did a test : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-USiAqyC-BqI.html I wanted to see if the bug had been fixed, if a petroleum layer was useful, etc Result : bug has been fixed, no need for a petroleum layer, go for 100kg-200kg steam pressure chamber, 10kg steam pressure chamber lost power
@3:41 what is this pump-like device that sucks the polluted water in the bottom-right corner? Is this some kind of debug-mode gadget like infinite liquid consumer?
I have two question about the steam room with a small layer of petroleum on the floor. 1: How much steam has to occupy each tile? 2: How much petroleum do I need per tile on the floor? Thanks.
If you stop the video at just the right frame around 5:02, you see that he has 400 kg of steam in one of the topmost steam tiles. From 5:18 to the end of the video pausing at the right frames shows an average around 2 kg petroleum per tile. (I saw, from left to right, 2053.8 g, unknown, 2356.5 g, 2506.3 g and 1334.8 g, which fits with the incoming water shifting petroleum towards the left.)
Is this bug still a thing? I did some quick, lazy tests and even with 900kg of steam my turbine seemed to be working fine. So either I pooched the test (likely), or it's been fixed.
Nobody seems to know. It's possible that it has always been like this. But it also seems weird that I wouldn't have noticed it until the last few weeks.
@@tonyadvanced6315 I certainly had this issue before, at least since the launch update. Wasted way more power for cooling loops than it should've been. And fixes were exactly the same, but I never realised that)
The absolute minimum is dictated by the fact that each Steam Turbine inlet takes in 400g/s of steam. You probably want somewhere between 400g and 800g of steam to prevent your turbine from choking on a vacuum. However! The closer you get to this minimum, the more likely you are to have massive temperature spikes if your heat source spikes (like a volcano erupting)... this could damage your aquatuner.
I just start playing and have absolutely no idea im doing the farthest I've gone is making recycle water then my power run out then my colony die of lack of oxygen. But atleast they die cleanly. But you over building shit i could not comprehend.
I keep having this same question about a bunch of the exploits and bugs people are finding. A number of them I've known about since like the Automation patch when I was doing routine game mechanic tests, and I just figured that the community knew and where doing the same basic game mechanic tests I was doing. What I'd love to see is a master list of these bugs with pictures or videos of the machines demonstrating them and their status as still in the wild, fixed, or eliminated and in what versions. Is there something like that?
