Stop Playing Bass Like a Guitarist 

same. for the genres im playing it makes sense as many people do similar stuff in modern metal/rock that has that sorta djent influence but I find myself realizing i've spent the whole song using only the bottom 4 strings and mostly 1 note at a time and I'm sorta realizing modern metal/hard rock rhythm guitar is often just playing the roll of Heavy Bass Embiggener. It's a vibe and super powerful, especially if you play around with when to use unison or trading little lines between bass and guitar or even harmonizing as much as is allowed with distorted tones, but I wonder if I should start experimenting with putting guitar where it usually belongs in other genres.

Bass was always the last thing I used to add too. I think when you're recording primarily by yourself, the standard drums-bass-guitars-vocal setup doesn't really work. But overtime I've found how big of an impact getting a bass part to lock in with the drums can really have - no matter how simple or complex the line itself is.

@@SugarpillProdyou’re so damn clever dude, and if you weren’t teaching us pop punk secrets I’d have never gotten to know your work. cheers!

@tactik5903 Haha thanks, I appreciate that! I'm really not doing anything clever though, I'm just highlighting the ideas from bands & producers I like, so all credit goes to them.

@@SugarpillProd modest too lol

I do the exact opposite. I record bass first. Then add everything else around that. Bass is my primary instrument though.

Another thing you can do is walk through the snare: say the drum part is really sparse, but it's basically kick-rest-snare-rest. It's going to be very hard to back off the snare (or the three, depending on how you think about it) completely, so I borrow a trick from James Jamerson in "I Was Made to Love Her": in that song, he's basically locked to the melody, so to avoid a 1-3 pattern, he takes what's a single quarter note in the orchestra, and plays two sixteenth notes. It's a great way to lay off the snare when you can't actually lay off the snare. Check out the song if you want to hear it: the theme starts right in the first measure, and the bass appears in the third, so you won't have long before hearing Jamerson double tapping the third beat.

100%.

Hey I agree, I feel that a busy bass over the chorus makes the lyrics muddier and the melody less interesting, a good root note reinforcement helps on building emphasis on the vocal melody while increasing the energy overall

I'm glad to hear that! MIDI does really help you get into the nitty-gritty stuff when you're trying to work out the best part for your song. I normally start out with the intention of going back and re-recording things later on, but then I find out the MIDI has better "feel" than me, haha.

Really happy to hear that!

Mike's definitely a great example of a bassist that really plays for the song, and not his own ego!

Thanks so much for watching!

Thanks, happy to hear that!

Dan's definitely one of my personal favourites. Dude doesn't get enough love for the many great bass lines he plays in ALK3 and outside of that band too (his work with Slapstick, The Falcons & The Damned Things, just to name a few).

The way they interact with Matt's guitar parts are incredible too, they both fill the space with intention without being overbearing

Are you really 300+ years old?

That's really nice to hear! I was worried this one might be a bit too rambly, or at least the first half of it anyway, haha. Glad you enjoyed it!

Thanks, I hope it helps you in some way!

No problem! Better late than never 😁

Yeah I think I might cover that topic soon. I did make an older video based around the skate punk beat, but I'd like to do something a bit more in-depth on that subject soon. Thanks for watching!

Thank you! You too!

Thanks, I hope some of the information ends up being useful for you!

For sure! I think that's one thing I forgot to mention is that it can also be fun to vary patterns up like that, from section to section.

That's great, I hope things go well with the new band! Yeah Reason is like my comfort DAW as it's what I grew up using, haha. I still love it for all my production and recording needs, though I'll bounce out of it into Reaper for mixing & mastering.

Haha yeah I get that. I don't think that's always a bad thing though. Depends on what type of music you're making. Some genres benefit from the unplayable, whereas others it can take you out of it.

I absolutely agree.

Haha yeah I get that all the time. I'd assume probably because of the typical bands I normally talk about, everyone assumes I'm from California or something 🤣

I think I did? Or at least that was the idea I was referring to when I said "The key thing here is the placement of each note, and figuring out when and when not to place your bass notes on the kick or snare".

I tend to switch based on the context of music. Sometimes pick sounds better, sometimes fingers. That's why I never understood people who are "anti" one way or the other, haha. They're both good, just depends on the sound you're going after.

It's a nice little trick to use if you're ever stuck for ideas!

Without a doubt.

Thanks! I'd say it's more of an intentional over-generalisation rather than outright clickbait though. But also it's just part of the marketing. I am making these videos in the hopes people watch them at the end of the day, haha.

Thanks! It's something I wrote years ago that I never really did anything with. So it doesn't a name or release unfortunately, haha.

Honestly I find bass plugins have gotten to the same point as drums, where you can really make them sound realistic as long as you know what you're doing. Like the bass line in Attention sounds super realistic to my ear, and that's all MIDI. But it's also fun recording it with a real bass too. Like you said, it's more of a visual aid in this context.

It isn't just for beginners. Writing lines direct to piano roll or some other way can help break out of the physical patterns you've inevitably picked up over the years and create brand new ideas.

@@pseudonymlifts2 Yeah I really agree with you there. Having to rely on only your ears makes you come up with a lot of things you normally wouldn't if you had a bass in hand. It's almost like playing a new instrument. Both approaches can work equally well, depending on what you're going for.

I’ve been coming back to that one video with it frequently, it sounds so good

I play each part at the end of this video, so that should give you the visuals to work it out. It's pretty simple stuff. Oh and it's in standard tuning if that helps - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MGs6MYGI0qw.htmlsi=HaeyKyQCnaBTfM-T

Reason 12 👍

Hey 👋

For sure, I can definitely see both working in this context. Like I said, I don't see one being better necessarily than the other, it just depends what you're going for. Those are all good bits of advice you mentioned though!

Just depends what you're going for really. There's a million ways you can play a bass line, and every person will add their own unique twist. Just because there's "many more techniques" you can add in, doesn't mean you should. Knowing when to hold back is just as important, if not more so.

@@SugarpillProd there are more than a million ways to do it. If the entire point of the video is "look how this works better than that," then, in my opinion, demonstrating it by adding one bassline writing technique leaves more to be desired. If, instead, the point of the video is "meh, know when to hold back, it's more important," when it comes to writing the bass line, then the video just kind of wastes the viewer's time.

@spastickitchen It was neither. The video isn't about one "technique". The idea was to highlight the different roles a bass usually plays within a composition. A lot of it is based on my past experiences working with bands and artists, so it's addressing a common issue I hear that's prevalent in a lot of peoples writing - of which I used to do the same. And like I mentioned in the video numerous times, one isn't better than the other, not everything is an absolute. You could go more technical, you could go more basic, it really doesn't matter as long as you're serving the song. Like you said, you could utilise a bunch of other techniques, but that also speaks to the mindset of being more focused on yourself, rather than the composition as a whole. That sort of "tunnel vision" is a super common problem I hear with bands, where they're all concerned about their own individual instruments (both in the writing and mix) but less concerned about how these parts sum together. I think if you read a lot of the comments, the video seems to have reached the desired audience.

And who says that writing a part focusing on reinforcement of the song versus writing a part designed to highlight a certain instrument doesn't involve writing techniques? And, furthermore, what sort of writing "serv[es] the song?" If you add any sort of part, and it does nothing to serve the song, then the song should reflect the artists vision better if you mute the instrument. But, it's all up to the artist. The video seems to me to boil down to "check out this riff with this bassline I wrote. I wasn't happy with it, so I replaced it with a bass line that locks into the drums instead of just the guitar. Doesn't it sound better? Maybe, I don't know." "Writing to serve the song," as people put it, is basically just a meaningless aphorism. You write a cool part you like. If it's for someone else, they either like it or not. If I was doing a session, as a bass player, and someone told me to write a bass part for them that served the song, I would just ask them for more information, like, what sort of bassline do they imagine in the song. After all is said and done, the "write to serve the song" language ultimately tells me (or whomever is composing the part) absolutely nothing. And then, making a video about this topic. I know it takes a lot of time and effort, so I don't mean to sound like I am just trashing your work, but I feel like the interesting part of this topic just kind of gets hinted, instead of developed further. So, constructively, this could be a springboard into another video that dives deeper into the topic of how different sorts of basslines sound over the same riff. That way, the common nothingburger of a phrase "write to serve the song" gets something with meaning to back it up with tangible examples. Sorry if it sounds "salty," again, I don't mean to crap on the video you clearly put work into. However, I've had so many bad experiences with that phrase and analogs of it (for example: write a song that fits this artist, who hasn't released anything before; or, write a song that fits the vibe of my movie that hasn't been filmed yet; or, use instrumentation that sounds [insert nonmusical adjective here]). I know it's a limitation of communication, but long form video format could be the perfect way to address this sort of thing. If you'd like to expand on this further, I propose ,if you feel comfortable, you could send me some stems, and I'd be happy to put 3-4 different sorts of bass lines over the riff, and you could do with it whatever you like- use it in a video if you want, throw it away if you think it's trash, make a video about youtube comment, use it in a commercial, whatever.

I'm really speaking from a producer background, so writing a part that serves the song isn't an empty statement, at least not to me. It's about focusing on the focal points of a song, and not injecting unnecessary elements just because you can. That's really it. Like you might be able to come up with the wildest bass part, with double handed tapping, slap and dead notes all over the place, but that's probably not what most people want out of a bass line that's there to serve the song. Especially if it's not the focal point - or one of the focal points - of the composition. The example given is just a very basic idea to highlight the difference between a typical bass lines that's just been added because most people assume they need bass in their song, vs one that has a little more thought behind the actual groove of said song, and what the drums are doing. A better example I could've used would be to have something with more of an obvious focal point, like vocals, but I was trying to keep things simple just so viewers didn't have too many parts to focus on all at once. It's a hard concept to both teach and show practically, so I thought keeping things as stripped back as possible would work best in this case. I'm still learning how to best "teach" these ideas, as it's not something that comes naturally to me, so I'm more than happy to take criticism on that end. I'm never often 100% satisfied whenever I finish a video, but I do stand by the points made in this one, and it's not like everything there is to be said on this topic I've covered in these 8 minutes, that would be silly to suggest. I plan to make more on this subject area, because it's a huge concept to explore. And to your other point, something I've noticed when working with great session musicians, is that they really do focus on every part of a composition, and not just themselves. They might have been hired to only play the bass, drums, whatever, but they're never writing parts to impress the artist or producer, they're writing parts to enhance what's already been presented to them. They're listening for what's needed, and how their part can affect everything else around it. Whereas a more typical band situation usually involves every member concentrating on how "cool" they can make their part, without really giving consideration to the song as a whole. As you said yourself, "you write a cool part", which makes me think you're still talking purely from the perspective of only being focused on your own instrument. I don't think great songs are just made up of every individual band member writing their own "cool part" and this somehow coming together as a well written song. I think great songs are built around 1-2 "cool parts" with everything else wrapping around those, to enhance what's unique about those initial ideas.

Oops 🤣

I definitely agree about your points on composition, that was the overall theme I was trying to show in the video. But the role of a composer is a bit abstract in a pop / rock context, as that job is really being shared by a lot of different people - the producer, various songwriters, band members, etc. With regards to the different genres, I can't realistically cover the nuances of every genre in one 8 minute video, so I'd rather focus on the ones that I tend to produce for.

@@SugarpillProd fair point, i wasn't familiar with your channel, but i've scanned through and yes, if we're talking pop/rock context, the points covered in the video are fair.

Yeah I am heavily generalising there, I've just noticed from working with a lot of guitarists who end up recording bass, they tend to either over-simplify things, or over-play. But I don't really care for the weird way people segregate themselves into the "bass" or "guitar" camp, it just works for a video title, haha. They're only instruments at the end of the day. All I'm saying is from a typical arrangement perspective, the bass is 9/10 serving a different role, so playing it the same way doesn't always make sense. But as you've pointed out, it can also make for more unique styles, like say how Peter Hook plays, though they're quite case-specific.

_"However, if you're barely an intermediate guitarist, when switching to bass, stuff like power chords, octaves, and pentatonic noodling are already in your repertoir and are a pretty intuitive thing to try and incorporate to your playing"_ But I would argue this is exactly what makes someone sound like a "guitarist playing the bass". You are approaching it like lead guitar. I disagree that it makes you an intermediate bassist. That stuff isn't any more difficult on the bass than it's on the guitar, and it's not like bassists somehow learn about it later. It's just that proper bassists don't approach the bass like they would approach the guitar. (Of course there are exceptions to this, but still, when it comes to those exceptions, even they approach the bass differently than they would approach guitar.) Bass is less about note choice and more about groove. Of course note choice is also important, but you don't just want to play "interesting notes". Actually, sometimes that's exactly what ruins the song, because the bass isn't actually outlining the harmony properly. Bass plays the most important chord tone, and most of the time it should target the root. This doesn't mean "only play roots". It means play root on the downbeat, and then add a fill. Playing bass requires a different kind of a harmonic understanding than playing guitar does, because it plays a different harmonic role. It also requires a different kind of a rhythmic understanding. In both cases, bass is more of a "foundation", so it needs to play stuff that emphasizes the more fundamental musical elements. This means playing root notes and playing on the strong beats. Guitar and other instruments are essentially the opposite of it. On guitar, you want to add colorful chord tones and syncopation. But none of that works if there isn't a solid foundation (again, a clear sound of the chord root, and a clear sound of the downbeat). "Bootsy's basic funk formula" is a perfect demonstration of this. It starts with the most solid foundation - root note on the downbeat. Then the rest of the measure is spent playing more interesting notes and rhtyhms. I'm not saying bass playing is just playing root notes on the strong beats. But that's the starting point that one needs to understand before starting to add more interesting stuff to their playing. And this is not an understanding that guitarists naturally have, because their role in music is different from the bassist. My point is, if someone is a guitarist who wants to play the bass properly, they need to forget about stuff like "pentatonic noodling" and "power chords" for a while, and focus on the fundamentals of playing bass. It's a different mindset. They already know the technique, but they need to learn the music. I think there are two kinds of guitarists playing bass. Those who understand that the bass has a different role, but only understand the most basic role, so they underplay, and those who don't understand that the bass has a different role and approach it like a lead guitar, which leads to overplaying.

Agree. Do not hinder your creativity. Play what you feel as the Spirit guides you.

4:02

It’s almost as if you didn’t watch the video or listen to what he said. Bravo to you.

@@thestuffmikedoes2309 Thanks. You're correct. I didn't watch the whole vid. The click bait titles are a double edged sword.

@stu8506 So you didn't "let me explain" 💀

Both are great! I've never understood why some people only pick one. I just see them as a tonal thing where one can be better than the other, based on the context of the song.

@@SugarpillProdboth technqiues are great and serve different uses but that's not my point. if i really have to simplify it further: if you can't change the instrument, the more you change everything else around it will affect what and how you play it. and the input technique is a big thing. and yes, i'm aware that bass and guitar are not the same instrument but they are very similar in how you can play them.

Just do it 💪

total garbage

@handel1111 I've played 4 and later 5 and 6 string basses since 1978.....how long YOU played bass for.... .....no....didn't think so....