The rule of thirds is a good teaching tool when teaching composition, but once one has "mastered" the basics of composition and it shows in their work, then it can be broken. As one photographer said to me, once you know the rules, then you know when you can BREAK them. The rule of thirds doesn't always work (for example, if you're looking for symmetry in a phtoograph or certain patterns, or you want to take a picture of a tunnel with a light at the end of it... then the rule of thirds doesn't really work although you can use the ROT guides to center your frame). As with most things in photography, there is a time and place for things, and then there isn't and it's good to know what type of composition method (whether it's the rule of thirds, golden ratio, or some other technique) is appropriate). At the end of the day, you just want some sort of balance, whether that fits within a composition technique or not. I think as long as you have an interesting subject, the lighting is appropriate, and there is "balance" within the frame, that's all you need. You don't always have to follow the composition rules to a T.
An alternative technique: just play around with the crop until you actually FEEL something, no matter where the subject may end up. I never understood following composition rules when all it takes to render them more or less useless is an imbalance in light/darkness, color, texture, etc. Which happens ALL THE TIME in captures.
I've been doing this, kind of. I usually try to take the picture so that I think what I want in it, so most of the time I don't have to crop it (and I'm also trying to avoid it because my equipment isn't that pro and wen you start to zoom/crop it, the limitations start to show more). But sometimes while editing I look at the image and think that there's too much plain blue sky or boring ground or whatever and start to crop that. In any case I don't use the grid, but kind of eyeball it towards the rule of thirds. Sometimes it goes to that, sometimes it stays closer to this golden rule. I like how you said it, "until you actually feel something".
@@Garbox80 I wish there existed a program (and this probably wouldn't be hard to make for anyone who knows coding) where you would just open your image, and then press a key on your keyboard to have the program give you a random crop. This way you could go through hundreds of crops very quickly to open your mind to the possibilities, and start from whichever version you liked best. There is artistic value to be added at every stage of the process, but the art of the crop is sadly underappreciated. And the feeling part is at the very heart of what art is, because images that seem perfectly executed but don't awaken feelings/thoughts actually belong in the trash. Conversely, you will never be lost at sea as long as your art makes you feel something, no matter how messed up it looks on the surface. Some of the best art is terrible from a technical standpoint, but that doesn't really matter unless you, say, produce it for some client with certain demands (might this be why Hollywood movies are so tame?).
I've been composing by feel for years, whether I'm shooting or doing post on images. I only really look at the composition if I want to line something up or am going for symmetry.
Mark, I have never thought of the “Rule of Thirds” as a rule, but rather as a suggestion or starting point. If one of the 1/3 lines or intersections gives me the most interesting compositional place to put my subject, then I’m fine with that. However, if another composition is more dynamic and interesting, then that is what I choose. And that is how I explain this and other compositional suggestions to others. It felt like you were reaching a little bit to create content by suggesting that we should kill the rule of thirds. That said, I appreciate your channel and your guidance, in general.
Great video Mark! Great tips. I think the problem people, and myself, have with the rule of thirds is forgetting to add a counter balance to the opposite third of the frame making it visually unbalanced. With all that “empty space” on that part, the composition just feels off.
I think both the rule of 3rds and golden ratio techniques are equally as useful. It all depends on your subject and personal preference. At the end of the day, photography is an art form, and art is entirely subjective.
Yes, many times there is a huge amount of dead space in a rule of thirds (ROT) cropped image. But there are many images that work well with it. You are a photographer, so you instinctively look for particular methods employed, but the average viewer doesn’t recognize the tool employed. As a photographer trained in art photography, I don’t always use ROT or Golden Ratio. I experiment with the placement of the subject to create the visual aspects to pull the viewer into the image. I don’t want someone to view it, say that it’s nice, and then more along. I want to pull them into the image and have an experience. It’s not always going to happen, but always following the rules is not going to allow for much imagination or artistry. You have a great channel Mark, and I respect your expertise.
The problem with "Rule of Thirds" is the very first word and you pointed it out very clearly, everyone does it. I bet if it was called something else it wouldn't be used as often. Even words like "golden" I think have the potential for abuse. Most don't realize that these are tools to be used and even less (talking more so for the amateurs) fully understand why one is used. For me, I've found the best way to learn this is to take a scene, crop it different ways without guides until I think the image is satisfying. Then, apply the grids. I've learned quite a bit that way and still have more to learn. Love these videos.
I think the key takeaway is to not stick to any particular rule when composing images. I use the rule of thirds, rule of fourths, rule of fifths, golden ratio, centered subject and variations on all of them. The key is to create a balanced image, I think. Including dead space, in order to achieve the correct ratio, is not the answer, in my opinion.
A good balanced approach Mark. Those rules are meant to be broken! Ken Duncan - Australia's most internationally sucessful Australian landscape photographer for many decades, once told a story of how a judge was looking at one of his images in a gallery said that "This photograph is not following the rules but the photograph still works" LOL!! The person didn't know Ken and Ken replied..... I'm glad the photographer (KEN) didn't know the rule the hey? LOL!!!!
These tips are extremely helpful. To me, the golden ratio composition feels much more dynamic. I admit I've fallen into the habit of using the rule of thirds technique for quite some time, and I feel that the general composition of my photos has become a bit too predictable. I'm excited to play around with these suggestions going forward!
Mark, I appreciate your video on this important topic. I agree that the Rule of Thirds (ROT) is an over-used compositional concept. It works when it works, but it stands out as undesirable when it is overused, as in "Oh, ROT that is distracting." When Center-Weighting is not enough, I tend to use Off-Center-Weighting with a strong preference for the Golden Ratio Grid approach. Generally, at the decisive moment, I'll focus with Center-Weighting for my main object, then move the camera slightly off-center, while keeping the Golden Ratio Grid in mind. When post-processing, I'll crop according to the needs of my composition. Thank you for bucking the ROT trend and showing what is, for many of us, a better way of composing great photos.
Yes. Been using that same overlay for years for the same reason, the rule of thirds seems to leave just too much empty space in areas where I want things to be!
Sometimes with the these "rules", it seems that we compose with what "feels" right (considering the weight and balance of all the components of the picture) and then find the overlay that fits it most closely. Are most of these "rules" just made up to fill someone's curriculum?
Great points you make there... I would like to add something: We are spoilt with this 60 megapixel reality that we live in now. But only ten years ago, we were proud of shots that were a fraction of that. So why not zoom out a bit, and crop later. To a square format... Portrait... Landscape... Cameras are SO good nowadays....
Visited OBX years ago before getting into photography, it was November and cold, but zero crowds. I would like to go back one day and capture the lighthouses. Great video content Mark, plenty of think about here.
Good video, I started the video very skeptical, but in the end I totally understand and agree now. I don't think my camera shows anything other than rule of thirds, but can estimate it easily enough.
As a newbie I've been applying the rule of third but moving my feet to make more dynamic shots if that makes sense. Great points here and when you said you'd leave that bit when you cropped the rock pic, I knew exactly what "because I like that" means and my wife says I make that same face lol!
I stopped thinking about the rule of thirds. I even forgot to turn the overlay on in my a7 IV when I bought it. I compose however I want, yet still keeping track of not having too much dead space that doesn't contribute to the image or overlapping subjects that shouldn't overlap or leaving too much or too little space between subjects. Using leading lines where it feels right or stacking elements where it feels right (like a telephoto woodland scene or a stack of mountains into the deep atmosphere). It's good to learn why things work a certain way and using some of these guidance tips like the rule of thirds, the golden ratio, leading lines and the foreground-midground-background stack to create depth are all good things. But so is back-lighting your subjects, using flat light when it works or having nice golden directional light other times. There are so many aspects to composition.
Another thing to keep in mind is where we decide to position our compositional lines. When I crop my portrait photos, I don't put my rule of thirds line in the center of the face, I offset it over an eye, and which line over which eye can make a big difference. For example, when you cropped the Golden Gate you chose to put the right line in the middle of the bridge, whereas is you had pushed the right line over to the right side, your composition would be much closer to what you ended up with with the golden ratio. Just another thing to keep in mind; where we choose to line things up on our subject. Great video Mark!
I've got to disagree with you on this one. I honestly don't think it matters what technique you use to create an image and we shouldn't be focusing so much on that as photographers. Everyone is different in their idea of what looks "good", but we should be working as artists to create what we find beautiful, not telling others that one technique is better than another. Not a knock on you, just something I have seen in the community that bothers me. Composition is important, but no compositional technique is better than another, and rule of thirds has just as much of a place as any other technique.
Photography should be what we like, not what we find popular, but neither running away from popular... I don't care how many people is doing this or that, I care about knowing how things work and than choose what I like... Constantly trying to avoid thirds just because is trendy is to me another way of slavery... The rule of thirds is and will always be a fine balanced way to distribute to the viewer what is more important and not so much... Now the crossing of the lines, yes, that is a bit exagerated to be always forcing smaller motives into them...
Interesting discussion Mark. I wonder if the Golden rule was the universally accepted composition tool if we would be decrying the slavish adherence to that and suggesting the rule of thirds as an alternative. Surely it's more about moving the subject off centre to create tension in the image. How far off centre depends upon the overall balance in the image (light, secondary subjects, leading lines, neutral space... all the other elements of composition). The various rules are surely more like guides to what often works well, but to be varied as required by individual circumstances.
This is my take on it as well. The rule of thirds is not a hard and fast rule. It is a technique that allows for compositions other than center weighted to create some artistic value. But every scene must be evaluated and adjusted. I always viewed the rule of thirds as a starting point anyway.
Congratulations winners! Mark, I've been using your previous Rule of Thirds video as a basis for my compositions for about a year now, I think. This was a great refresher. Thanks for posting it!
Good video Mark. Think the rule of thirds has unintentionally too often become my default for composing a landscape photograph (especially with horizons), so need to be more mindful of pushing my subject inward. Or better yet, maybe take that extra shot or two where I just push against the rules and try something completely different!
Great video today! I found it very helpful. I have fallen into the habit of overusing the rule of thirds. I will definitely try changing it up more! Thanks, Mark.👍🏻
Hi Mark, another great video. I really enjoyed that subtle difference between the rules of thirds and the golden rule. For such a small difference, there was an immediate visual difference. I've always struggled with my landscape photography to get the right balance for the scene and for the message I want to get across. I'm going to give the golden rule a whirl in some of my existing images to see if I can bring that bit of extra life into some of them. Thanks Mark, have a good one. Paul, Sheffield, UK.
Another helpful video. I agree that the Rule of Thirds is over-used. I was in a FB group where it was promoted heavily, and I pushed back for folks to not get locked into that as their only compositional guide. So many had no idea of the O shortcut in LR to toggle through the other options.
Concerning the rule of thirds it may work in most of situations but it's not necessarily the most adequate one. As it's said you need to know the rule before you break it. I think the best thing to be sure of is to ensure that the elements if the photo are well-balanced and the eye can read the photo with ease. Thanks a bunch Mark
I keep the 3rd grids on, and use them as guidelines for quick positioning, but not following “line-up on those lines” ritually. As a hardcore photographer, you might say my positioning is all over the place! But it isn't only the positioning that's in a photograph! I DID NOT BUY AN EXPENSIVE CAMERA TO RITUALLY PUT SUBJECTS ON THE THIRD GRID OR THE DEAD CENTRE.
So, numerology is the answer to photograpjhy. One can always create any number of "insert term" ratios that shift the grid from the center to the sides and apply them. Let's not forget that photographers also went over (golden?) spirals and what not. However, each will only be good in certain scenarios and not so good in others. It all depends on the main subject ant what that subject is surrounded with. Sometimes it looks great centered, other times it looks great shifted to one side or the other depending on what is around.
My technique is start out with the rule of thirds and then adjust from there. Sometimes, the rule of thirds is a perfect solution, but I come to that conclusion only after trying other solutions, coming back to the rule of thirds, or finding another way. The best bet is to acquire enough experience with cropping so that it becomes intuitive. Settling on a standard place to start and then following intuitive hunches serves me well.
Good Day Mark... Shout out from Philippines. Your video was suggested by youtube entitled "This COMPOSITION Tool Eats the RULE of THIRDS for Breakfast!! Landscape Photography". I discovered this technique when I was in college. Perfect that your video reminds me of this because I'm doing landscape photography. Your video is very inspiring and it encourages me to do more landscape photography. I hope to get a chance of winning you one of your prizes. Godbless you
Thanks for sharing. An interesting idea, but to me it's semantics. I don't apply TROT precisely and seek to position exactly, just approximately until it feels about right. It all depends on what image elements you are dealing with. Also when you referenced examples like your 'Golden Gate Bridge' you weren't doing so either, thus IMO trying too hard to make your point. In 'thirds' you moved RHS of tower exactly on the line. Yet for 'golden ratio' you moved centre part of Tower to the line, thus diminishing the difference. To my eye both were broadly similar, so no real appreciable difference. I really take your thesis to be TROT is getting overused, so in order for your work to stand apart (a good thing) we need to look beyond the basics. I'd argue that the 'golden ratio' plus 'triangulation' with a degree of 'leading lines' makes more sense - especially where applied generally (ie with judged artistic vision) rather than precisely or pedantically. Also for landscape it's best to compose with a sense of 3D depth (aided by leading lines). For sport or action best to compose with space for a subject to move into. For portraits or small groups then best to compose considering the eye direction ie thinking of this as a quasi line of interest that our own eyes naturally follow. But not withstanding this, to be prepared to break any or all rules to suit your artistic intent. My own informal rule is best to just 'keep it simple' ie tight minimalist composition with a clear 'hero' point of interest. A dynamic graphic composition can help too. If the main subject isn't immediately obvious then it's too 'windy' boring and unremarkable. Sure rules can help to start one off, but it beholds anyone with artistic intent to move beyond that and develop their own way 'to see' to compose and thus to develop your own visual identity. Dare to be different, bold, dramatic and do it with confidence. Sure not everyone will like your 'style' but as long as you like your own work then you are enroute to artistic integrity.😅
One of the ironies in is that we have never so many different tools at our disposal and, instead of being creative and individual, we often want our images to imitate others, rather than to learn from others. You rightly blame the grids on camera screens and processing software for encouraging the rule of thirds. To that, I could add the many judges in club competitions who see it as the go to compositional format. Thanks for giving us an alternative approach, Mark.
Very good video. I've been using the Golden ratio or Golden Mean for over 15 yrs. The rule of thirds ,in my words, always seemed lopsided, then I found the GR in a photo mag a long time ago. The great painting masters used the Golden ratio, the rule of thirds is the cheesy, easy copy of the GR that photographers thought up. If one looks at the works of Ansel Adams you will see the GR. Also it would have been nice to show the other ways of using the Golden ratio, like the spiral etc.
This is the first time I've heard the Rule of Third's responsibility to cause or render "stress" for the viewer. Not being critical, but I find that odd as the goal. (Perhaps I hate stress! ;). When I work with composition, it honestly varies depending on my subject, lighting, and what I am trying to achieve for an overall look. Changing it up is part of the artistic process for me.
Been using the golden ration since my first photograph 20 years ago. Not knowing about the golden ratio but I never liked the rule of third so I placed my subject always like you showed in the video. It was a natural thing for me.
I really like this video because, as usual, you are sharing your thought process as well as talking about what you feel when you look at an image. And that, feelings, is what I find to be the most difficult aspect of photography...to "listen" to my feelings when I look at a scene or image in front of me. I think the rule of thirds as well as the golden ratio are both the best....depending on how they make you feel in a given situation. When I go back and look at some of my images, I think that I used the rule of turds instead of the rule of thirds or any other composition ratio guideline. Where I think I failed is that I didn't slow down and take in the scene in front of me, didn't listen to my own feelings and listen to what made me feel good when viewing the scene. Only when I understand my own feelings can I begin to try to convey and share that feeling with another viewer. And that, for me, is the most difficul...to slow down and listen while I see.
Great topic Mark. I guess I understand where your going but not sure why. The rule of thirds is over-used and misused because of prior discussions just like this one. Recommending the golden ratio for the wrong images will result in the exact same over and misuse with a different rule and recommendation. I would argue each image should consider its own compositional rule and we should understand them all and apply them with care or not. Some of my most interesting images over the years used a composition unique to it that I never used again. It’s ok to have guide(s) not sure about rules.
Great tutorial!!! Being a rookie I pretty much always followed the rule of thirds. Having said that, every picture I printed seemed to be more like the golden ratio. I had never heard of the golden ratio before this video, but now I don't feel so bad about not following the rule of thirds. Thank you, and keep up the good work.
Hi Mark. Awesome lesson on rule of thirds and golden rule of thirds. I am guilty of using the the rule of thirds more than I probably should. I am definitely going to try this on my photos. My moto is to "get better one photo at a time" and your instructions have helped me on this journey. Keep the videos coming.
Very brave man for taking on the rule of thirds. I admit, I had doubts going into this video but you make very good points and successfully so as now I feel I have another technique to try out more often (golden ratio). I think both will have their place depending on the situation. And thank you for not only pointing out potential 'flaws' but also a solution. Glad I watched today!
The composition and light are more important... And honesty, I don't care for the 1/3 rule... This means that I give space to the main subject so that it can express itself, distance from the center. It depends on the subject... how far I distance it from the center...
There are 2 rules xD First if you want to center your subject put it in the center, then if not put it far enough from the center to not make people think that you wanted to put it in the center but didn't by mistake. Rule of thirds or any other rule for that matter, once you do enough transformations on the grid you will see some rule everywhere. Which became reason I turned the grid off in camera because it only distracts from taking a picture.
Why don't photographers look to Art (paintings) they have been at it for a lot longer. Your trees on the beach, what I saw was triangulation and contrast points, you could have put them in the middle, left, or right it doesn't matter. There are many armatures, ROT is one of many. We may as well chuck in Gestalt theory as well, it all helps to look at other possibilities besides the obvious one that gets worked to death. And thanks for bringing it up Mark, bravo.
I'm not a photographer. I design greeting cards using images from a variety of sources. I do digital design (primarily to create backgrounds), but the cards themselves are physical. What's striking to me in your discussion is that you're so intent on the placement of your focal point that you're almost ignoring the rest of what's in the photograph (you hint at it when you complain about too much negative space on the left of one of the images). What I notice is the way my eye follows the curves at the right of the image with the waterfall, or how interesting the rocks are in the image where rule of thirds cut them off and the revision plays them up. Using rule of thirds or golden ratio can leave you with a composition that distractingly off-balance. Your use of it with horizon lines suggests another consideration for composition. When I have a strong horizontal element, it simply looks wrong when placed too high. I tend to place those around the one-third mark. (Putting text near the bottom is less problematic for me, perhaps because of the visual convention of captions, or maybe because extra visual weight at the bottom helps to anchor the design.) I'm quite comfortable with center-focal design (and formal symmetry), but in recent years I have made an effort to make my compositions a bit more dynamic, which tends to mean being more thoughtful about the left and right. Landscapes and portraits have us expecting variation from top to bottom, but changes from side to side are less expected and read as more dynamic.
The rule is of course is a theory about what constitutes a pleasing composition. This theory works for photographers who do not have a creative brain. That’s not a knock, it’s just recognition that some photographers are not talented, knowledgeable or skilled in the arena of graphic arts. Their photography demonstrates no understanding for what makes a photograph compelling so these photographers benefit from rules, which simply reverse engineer graphic arts works which have been acclaimed by most audiences.
Thanks, Mark! As you probably know, the Golden Ratio (or Golden Section) has been used for centuries by artists to compose their paintings. It’s definitely an oldie and a goodie!
60 years ago the rule of thirds was suggested as an approximation to the rule used in the darkroom to be used when taking the photo. The rules suggested for use in the darkroom, when you had ample time to compose, was to use the point of intersection of a perpendicular from a corner to a diagonal connecting the adjacent two corners. This changes the points position with the aspect ratio of the final print.
When cropping images in post I have frequently found that placing the primary subject along a diagonal line drawn from the upper left corner down and across to the lower right corner provides the strongest image. It may be different where people read from right to left and go down the column of characters and across. It is why I like to leave space for future cropping of the image at my leisure in post.
As usual, a great video. And, as usual, I will go back and re-re-edit my photos with what I just learned. I never used the rule of thirds, just went with what looked right to me, but I’ll use these as tools in the future.
In fact, I've been using this Golden Ratio rule since I became more serius about photographing. I've heard that painting masters, like Leonardo da Vinci, used it a lot. So, I decided to choose this rule in instead of the Rule of Thirds.
I often put the edges of things on the third lines, rather than the centres of the things, I think it looks nice to have boundaries on the third lines. I notice that many of your examples using the golden ratio grid have the edges of the things quite close to where the third lines would be. That being said I primarily do live broadcasting rather than still photography which changes the equation somewhat.
Golden Ratio is a definitely better than the Rule of Thirds. If you use leading lines and have your foreground guide you to your main focal point, would it really matter to use the Golden Ratio or would it work together with the leading lines?
It is unfortunate that someone might be taught the rule of thirds or other methods and then feel compelled to apply these to every photograph composition. Rather than consider this or any other rule, I prefer to simply look through the viewfinder at the scene to be photographed, and consider a number of different perspectives, not just those from my current position, and to even take several photographs with the subject or scene at various perspectives.My goal is to chase the best looking scene with no consideration for rules or other criteria and to simply let my eye guide my work, and then to not rely on my judgment at the time, but to take various options into post and make the call as to which photo best captures the scene or which is most appealing long after I took the photos.
I can see why you prefer the golden ratio compared with the rule of thirds. I am though wondering if the application of these composition rules is in general too strict. Take for example the tree picture. It has very lit-up branches on the right side of the vertical line (either golden ratio or rule of thirds). And I think that calls for putting it more in the center to make the picture more balanced. I think that contrast also influences where you put the object of interest - and strict use of the rules I think takes a bit away in terms of the overall composition.
Perhaps the takeaway is that using personal aesthetic judgement to define framing and composition rather than adhering to "rules" is a best "rule". Simply replacing one rule with yet another may appear novel in the moment, but ultimately degrades the art of composition into a formula.
Been finding myself using the golden ratio lately on accident, then trying to adjust to the rule of thirds before I go back. I also have cropped it so that it looks right, then changing the overlay until I find the closest composition rule and making fine adjustments accordingly.
Congratulations to the winners, thanks for the opportunity Mark 👍 I must admit I have not heard of the “Golden Ratio” method until now, I try to make sure my images are balanced before anything else, then think about placing the main subject within the frame, if it happens to be on the “Rule of Thirds” intersection then happy days. I guess unbalanced images annoy me more, or something in the shot that drags the eye away from the obvious subject 🤔It is a very subjective
Well said Mark I have never stuck to the rule of thirds. It is not a rule in my eyes it is only a guide i compose the image to the best that i like not all this crap about stick to rule of thirds .
I see most if not all your photo in some way use the rule of thirds. The golden ratio is just another form of thirds, its very hard to see when your photos are 1:1 or verticals. Good idea though
Mark Enjoy you tips and photos. 1st camera Minolta SRT-101. I have upgraded to digital and now I am ready to retire and travel. Please help with some of you knowledge on traveling on airlines with camera gear. Check or not to check, proper cases, and just general precautions you take. Thanks
Mark, good topic and discussion. I do agree that the “rule of thirds” does get used a lot and maybe even too much. Creativity should be based on feel and the look you are trying to achieve, not limited by some rule…. Sometimes, like everything in life, it works out that the composition is best suited at the third of the frame. But, as you are trying to demonstrate this should not be anyone’s guiding principle of composition. We are composing art and there are no rules to this process…. Thanks for sharing and keep snapping!
Hello Mark. first I don't use any rules anymore. Now a days I look at a picture and if I think it's nice/good than it's perfect for me. But the funny thing is. In the last 15 or years, here in germany, a lot of people using the "goldenen Schnitt" which is the golden ratio. But now more and more are using the rule of thirds . I don't like that, but a lot of photographer are using it now here. Think a lot of workshows here, tell them ,this is something new and golden ratio is out. ;-) So I think in another 15 years it will change back again. ;-) Thank you for your great videos.
Great video! I'm fairly new to photography and have often heard about the rule of thirds. Now I have another perspective to consider so thank you for teaching about this option. I'm going to look back at some of my pictures and try this placement to see how it changes their look. Thanks!
