Stories about the Dangers of Revivalism, Pietism, and Mysticism 

What happened? No More pentecostal?

I also came out of pentecostal/evangelicalism, and God, really in the matter of days, showed me by grace the LCMS church and the Holy Spirit taught to trust in Christ 100%. Glad to hear that God did a similar work in your life!

Confessional Lutheran is the practice for the first 700 years or so - we read from the Greek

Will never leave Pentecostalism. God is using Pentecostalism in an unprecedented way in Indonesia and it is having a devastating impact on Islam with millions coming to Jesus. The sacramental style churches, like Lutheran, hardly any impact at all. That tells you something. In fact, Africa and other developing countries are being busted open by the Holy Spirit through Pentecostal churches more than any other church by far. Fortunately, our Pentecostal church is very deeply rooted in theology. Reading all the church fathers and the reformers. Love Luther.

@@michaelciccone2194 That's a great result ! My friend and I (regrettably) looked at a number of Pentecostal churches 35 years ago . But in process of time, we passed through that unstable phase in our faith. We later spent some time in fundamentalist style churches, including (ana)Baptist groups like the Baptists and others, but also conservative Presbyterian. But the more we opened our hearts to Christ and His Word, and the more we studied Scripture, the easier it became. We saw the evident departure of these man made religions and sects from Christ, and I had nothing more to do with them. Eventually, and against our struggling against the faith (in ignorance), we both came to see the truth of the Lutheran reformation. We saw that Luther really did do something wonderful by the absolute insistence of Sola Scriptura. We also came to see the fundamental truth of the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. The whole Pentecostal religion is one great merry go round of enthusiast religion. It's a counterfeit religion and not the truth. It robs the dinner of the true comfort that is found in Christ and the Gospel. And it teaches an altogether different Spirit in so many respects. This is not to say that there are not real Christians caught up in such pseudo Christian sects . But loyalty to Christ and His Word will lead any Christian through sectarianism into the glorious Truth of God's Word.

Well, it's not wrong.

🤣

True. Sadly

This is inaccurate. Grace is taught in most evangelical churches in America. However it appears that you have fallen into a hyper-grace error.

@@felixguerrero6062 Been to a lot of churches. Grace is seldom, if ever, brought up.The law is prominent in most, and/or hyper spiritualism. In an age of narcissism and entertainment, the Evangelical church fits the bill. Most people finally realize it's just a club and stop going.

The problem from my view is the message of most Fundamental Evangelicals: „God wants you to come as you are, but you can‘t stay as you are.“ So once you are „in“, you main target is to avoid sins because you can lose your salvation by „falling back in sinful behaviour“… (from my perspective as a German…it seems to me that most Fundamentals here want to be a 1:1 copy of their brothers in the USA)

Praise the Lord!

Link to the book please. I can't find it.

“One baptism for the forgiveness of sins” Looks like you’ve got that covered, so no need for another one.

Maranatha

God be praised.

In my opinion there's a vast difference in true revival and faux "for show" revival that's planned within "certain" belief systems. A true revival is where people repent and have a true turn from sin and acceptance of The Gospel. AND the Bible as authoritative truth. See the Gospel of John chapter 16. Jesus tells his disciples that he is sending a helper, whom is The Holy Spirit, Jesus tells of what his role is and what he will do. I see none of that taking place in many churches, including the NAR or Word of Faith. The Bible is God breathed by The Holy Spirit and anyone who denies the Word of God denies the very one they claim to follow or be in the influence of. The Holy Spirit points to Christ all throught its' 66 books. Anyone who claims to be under the influence of The Holy Spirit and does not point to Christ is a false teacher. A wolf in sheep's clothing!

I know many people who were “liberated” from drugs and alcohol at revivalistic services who later rejected God and aren’t even Christians today.

@@purplestars5410 BAR and Word of Faith are definitely false teachers.

Wouldn't be better if they talked about Jesus?

Followed Galvary church for a number years... You are right. They skip over a lot of the Bible.

The speaker himself mentions monergism, that's where his audience gets their calvinism from.

​@@MrWeebablePastor Wolfmueller is NOT a Calvinist. He is a confessional Lutheran, and so is the audience. Monergism is NOT equal to Calvinism. Lutherans aren't calvinists. Two different things. Calvinists deny Sacraments, Don't like crosses and vestments in Church etc. etc.

​@@Dilley_G45 how do calvinists deny the sacraments? As a presbyterian, we are taught the purpose of them. We have communion weekly (or monthly) and we do have Baptism.

@@michellesheppard9253 First the reformed Church and Presbyterian Church here rarely have Communion. And they do not see it as a sacrament. Memorial view of communion and of Baptism. Denying Baptismal regeneration and efficacy. Which they have to, as double predestination makes Baptism an empty gesture. Cause it's already predestined wonks saved and who not (in their view). Thereby neither sacrament can impart Grace. We are saved by Grace. So calvinists can't experience Grace by anything except if predestined. We as well as Orthodox and Catholics view Baptism and Eucharist AS SACRAMENTS. Because the Bible says it imparts Grace, as well as Baptismal Regeneration. Reformed theology denies the Sacrament and demotes Baptism and Eucharist to man's work as a sign

Good question, I think. The stories among those type that I have heard about recall the dream sending the Muslim to a place where they can hear the gospel.

Jesus himself came to me and as I was caught up in a Spiritual dimension which was more vivid than any dream with lasting impacts as I was shocked by the liquid love emanating from him. I have heard countless testimonies of people who encountered the Lord himself. Maybe because no one was around that would share it (?) I was not a muslim but grew up methodist and in a dangerous situation in Aspen Co. when the clarity came. He saved me.

Jesus is the Word according to John.

@Chase Moore The proof is in the pudding. His goodness led me to repentance and I have had a wonderful life in HIM. In that encounter with Him, He actually taught me about fruit and affirmed it in the Bible the next day. You know them by their fruits. He taught me the first discernment principle right there. My Lord and King! No worries, it was HIm.

@Chase Moore Jesus never said that. Chapter and verse? If one comes preaching another gospel? This was not another gospel.

Romans 7 has some answers for you. Yes, sexual immorality is not good, but there is a process of sanctification going on. The righteous falls and stands up again, which does not mean we can do whatever we want, but which keeps the promise of god‘s mercy and forgiveness that we need every single day. I was also baptized in a charismatic church (which was good), but we were never truly taught and that‘s what the speaker her mentions. There was this constant going back and forth in pride and despair, because of false theology. Water baptism is not initially necessary for salvation, it is a result of your salvation, a sign of obedience. We are saved alone by grace and faith, the works and deeds are a result of salvation + faith, not works + faith = salvation. It takes a while to untangle and untrained those false teachings, but God gives us mercy and understanding.

@@frizzyrascal1493 Thank you for your help and encouragement. God bless you and yours in Christ Jesus! Amen 🙏

​Lutheranism teaches Baptism is a means of Grace by which the Holy Spirit gives faith to the recipient(even infants). Faith is a gift from God, not the result of our works, so no one can boast(Eph. 2:8-9). God can give gifts to anyone he wants( even babies). There's also other "means of Grace" by which God can grant saving faith like reading and hearing the Word, and hearing the preaching of the Word and receiving the Lord's Supper, even if a person hasn't been baptized. Such a person should then be baptized.

@stephenkammerling9479 Amen. Yes, baptism is commanded by our Lord in Matthew 28, so it is not an option for a believer once they've come to faith in Christ, and yes, God can do anything He sovereignly wants. I fully agree! The problem is that if baptism itself saves, then how come the vast majority of people baptized as infants in the Presbyterian, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox churches exhibit very little to no signs of true regeneration throughout their lives!? That's a pretty big elephant in a small room!

@@EmV-si1eu Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize AND teach. Maybe many are baptized, but not correctly taught, if taught at all. The conservative Lutheran position is that Baptism initially saves you because the Holy Spirit grants the recipient faith in Jesus Christ, but won't save someone if he/she becomes an unbeliever as he/she gets older(not believing that Jesus is Lord and not believing that Jesus died for your sins and rose again). Lutherans believe a person can stop believing in Jesus because of their free will. We're capable of resisting God's Grace. Jesus promised to never leave us, but we can leave him. You mentioned seeing little evidence of faith in some other denominations, including Lutheran. I've been going to a Lutheran Church the last few years(LCMS) and it surely appeared that they loved the Lord, and were true believers. I was Evangelical most of my life until a few years ago. Those other denominations you mentioned besides Lutheran have other issues than Baptism, and many Lutheran bodies have problems like them. Most common being not holding to Biblical inerrancy.

Yeah. It's all anecdotal. No real evidence.

You may have been raised in an ordinary baptist church, others didn‘t. Where I‘m from, baptists, Pentecostals and charismatics are deeply mixed up and almost named interchangeably. What he said hit home on so many levels, be glad you weren‘t subjected to these weird and mostly false teachings.

Pastors meetings. We get together once a month for Bible Study

Here's all the info: wolfmueller.co/product/american-christianity-failed/ They should have it at the seminary book store! If not, you shaould ask them to order it. I also went to CTSFW, class of 2005.

love the book by the way!

Yeah, that's exactly what he said too.

He is giving his example (which is VERY VERY VERY common) so as to help people understand what he is saying. The problem of American Christianity is in Revivalism, Pietism, and Mysticism which he does cover. He tells you of his experience in this to help you understand what it means, as he points later to the explanation of the pendulum of pride and despair. Stick with it. Hear it for what it is, and not for what you want it to be friend.

@@davidturner1079 thanks - I should have listened further. I have heard too many sermons when the main topic of the pastor is themselves and not the Scriptures. His title also put me off. The revivals in Wales had much good fruit as did the Methodist revival at times when the Church was pretty dead - perhaps distinguish revival from revivalism? The Pietism of Spener is good - without true Pietism Lutheranism is basically scholasticism. Without true mysticism Lutheranism and Christianity become mere philosophy. There are obviously bad examples of revivalism, pietism and mysticism and we then arrive at American and contemporary Christianity. We must not throw the baby out with the bath water. I bought his book!

Brooke Medaris in Pastor Wolfmullers closing prayer he ask that we be kept in the faith. We can tell God that we don’t want or need his gift of salvation. Sometimes the riches of the world entices us to think we don’t need God. He will never leave us or forsake us but we can leave him. Or the devil entices with sin. Not just sin but with the celebration of our sin. The devil is very good at saying “Did God really say.” Even though He doesn’t give up on us, He will never forsake us.

@@debbiefogarty51 If nothing can snatch us out of his hands, for those that are truly saved, that would include the devil. In fact, if ANYTHING could snatch us, it would be Satan. Nothing can snatch us out of his hand. I do understand that there are many many warnings that seem to indicate that a true believer can be lost again, but if you read those passages in context not only within the same chapter, but the whole book as one and even with whole picture of the bible, it is clear that the warnings are there for 2 reasons. First, for us to examine our faith to be sure it is real. Second, to examine others to be sure that they are real. Scripture is abundantly clear that those who are called, are also justified and those who are justified are ALSO glorified. Romans 8:29. This is unbroken. All that the father gives to the son, he will lose none. Not one. A person who has their faith in Jesus Christ is sealed with the holy spirit as a promise.

@@debbiefogarty51 Also, I was referring to the gentleman who prayed in the beginning. He referred to being snatched, which cannot happen. He will finish what he began in us. That is a promise.

Brooke W By default (believing) we belong to Jesus. ❤️✝️🕊🙏📖 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” ‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭NIV‬‬ But sadly, we can fall away... (Once SAVED/Aways saved is a lie)! “We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.” ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭NIV‬‬ “Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:12‬ ‭NIV‬‬ “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬ Stay planted in the WORD... “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4‬ ‭NIV‬‬ "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." -‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬‬ “Here is a trustworthy saying: ~If we died with him, we will also live with him; ~if we endure, we will also reign with him. ~If we disown him, he will also disown us; ~if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

The answer to your first question is we don't know. Several whole households are baptized in the Bible. Were there infants in any of those households? Were those infants included, or only adults? We don't know. Lutherans believe in origional sin and Baptismal regeneration. If babies are innocent, when do we become responsible for our sins? Since Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and we sin from birth, infants need to be baptized.

@@markhorton3994 i’m really not sure, I’m trying to figure all this out myself. Is it the act of baptism that is salvific in and of itself? Is there such a thing as implicit faith? Is it really the faith of the parents that is the means of salvation in the case of infants that are baptized? What is really going on in baptism? Are baptism and communion a means of justifying grace or sanctifying grace? I’m trying to figure out how and why they are sacramental. I have a high view of baptism and communion, and I do believe that both communion and baptism are sacramental and not merely memorial ordinances but seek to derive my theology from the Scriptures. What is the biblical perspective because I also hold to Sola Scriptura?

@kevin carney I am just a layman who comments too much. Most of the time I am passing on what others gave taught me. Verified by my own reading of the Bible. In practice, Sola Scriptura means "anything contrary to Scripture must be discarded," and I stand by that as much as Luther did. (Although he faced the probability of death for doing so, and I only hope I would). The best source for the answers you seek is Pastor Wiedmuller's videos on the subject. As always, read the Bible citations included for yourself in context. Another source of sound Lutheran theology is Dr. Pastor Jordan Cooper, "Saint & Sinner" although many of his videos are on the level of advanced Seminary lectures. To the point, the ACT of Baptism does not save in the manner of a magic ritual. Baptism, Communion, and formal confession and absolution are "means of grace." Sacraments are Biblically ordered acts with physical and spiritual elements by which God delivers His Grace. Absolution is not often called a Sacrament because it lacks a physical element, but it delivers forgiveness of sins. Whatever one calls it just pouring water on someone or dunking them in it is not Baptism. Baptism is " water and the word" in infant Baptism, the faith of the parents is not necessary. They could be Athiests or Satanists, although that would put the Christian education of the child in jeopardy. The faith of the celebrant ( usually a pastor but any believer) makes Baptism a Sacrament.

@@markhorton3994 You may technically be a layman, but you seem quite knowledgeable in many ways. I have an ordination and am an elder in a reformed Baptist Church, but I have never been to seminary and have learned most everything on my own through personal study and reading and bible study so I guess technically I’m also a layman. Either way, I appreciate the dialogue and any perspective you may add to my quest for knowledge/enlightenment/revelation. I also appreciate your high view of Scripture, which is of course my own perspective. I’ve never really considered absolution as a sacrament to be honest. I know the Bible says at James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another that you may be healed…‬‬‬”, but I’d always seen that more as a means of accountability and humility than a sacrament. Of course, in one sense, all of life is sacramental for the believer if you know what I mean. All of life is a means of grace according to Romans 8:26, though I would also say that the sacraments are a specific means of Grace. Of course, God in his sovereignty can act through means, without means, or even contrary to means. Perhaps the only answer to my queries is given below by Saint Augustine as quoted by John Calvin. "We have come into the way of faith," says Augustine: "let us constantly adhere to it. It leads to the chambers of the king, in which are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. For our Lord Jesus Christ did not speak invidiously to his great and most select disciples when he said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now,' (John 16:12). We must walk, advance, increase, that our hearts may be able to comprehend those things which they cannot now comprehend. But if the last day shall find us making progress, we shall there learn what here we could not," (August. Hom. in Joann). Grace and peace to you my friend.

@kevin carney Your idea of ordained clergy is very different from mine. I am confessional Lutheran. Lutheran clergy are not ordained without graduating from seminary. They know enough Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek to at least discussions of subtle meanings of Biblical word choice. They are thoroughly trained in all aspects of theology, church history, how to write and deliver a sermon ( by doing it), details of Scripture, the writings of early Christians (church fathers) and, almost, everything else needed to be a pastor. Jesus personally trained the first church leaders. Part of Paul's training of Timothy and Titus is preserved in Scripture. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and others were all trained RCC clergy. Luther, and I think the others, was a teaching Doctor of Divinity. They were each thrown out for not finding Papal authority in the Bible. Anyone can, and everyone should spread the good news, Gospel, and we should all help each other grow in understanding, but the gap in knowledge between me and a qualified pastor ( shephard) is imense. Lutherans do normally count 2 Sacraments occasionally 2 1/2. Absolution is definitely a means of Grace because sins are forgiven. It fails the test as Sacrament because it lacks a physical element. You are, of course, correct that we should confess to and forgive each other. Formal confession and absolution is based on Jesus's telling first Peter and then all the disciples that whatever they forgive on Earth is forgiven in Heaven and whatever they do not forgive on Earth is not forgiven in Heaven. We like the RCC call this the Office of the Keys, but they go far beyond Scripture with it. Your church, in ordaining you, has given you this responsibility, use it faithfully. Christ has forgiven us all our sins. The only time I have ever seen this used negatively, and not by a Lutheran, was when someone was not repentant and openly rebellious to pastoral authority. He was also excommunicated. As I said the first time you should seek qualified theologians' views and then judge them by Scripture. I could be wrong. God bless you, brother.

Lutherans don’t believe in Transubstantiation friend

I believe EXTRA STICC that he is asking if he can be Lutheran without believing our beliefs on the eucharist. It is true that we do not believe in transubstantiation, but I would encourage you not to discredit our belief so quickly, without fully knowing it. It is written in 1 Cor 10 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? The next verse he says: Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf. He makes sure to point that there is only one loaf of bread. It is referring of course to the Body of Christ (because he said the verse before "is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ"). We are one body when we all share of the one loaf. When we partake of his Body. This is true because Jesus himself also said in John 6:22-45-60 : Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.’ He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, ‘This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?’ My friend, Jesus said of HIMSELF that we MUST eat his body and blood and believe it is him. Remember, Christ is the LAMB of God. The altar sacrifice. Did the Jews eat of the sacrifice of the Lamb? ABSOLUTELY. They also ate of the Passover Lamb as well. When we partake, we eat of the Lamb of the new covenant. I encourage you to dive deeper in your faith, and if you have questions about the Lutheran belief on this, to ask an LCMS pastor near you about it. Blessings brother.

@Chase Moore God judges hearts, not deeds... that's God's word...

😂 The same with Presbyterians. “ I didn’t grow up Presbyterian, I grew up PC (USA).” 😂

It is written in 1 Cor 10 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? The next verse he says: Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf. He makes sure to point that there is only one loaf of bread. It is referring of course to the Body of Christ (because he said the verse before "is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ"). We are one body when we all share of the one loaf. When we partake of his Body. This is true because Jesus himself also said in John 6:22-45-60 : Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live for ever.’ He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. When many of his disciples heard it, they said, ‘This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?’ My friend, Jesus said of HIMSELF that we MUST eat his body and blood and believe it is Him. These were not allegories as he followed up on this later and said that he gave it to them (Take eat. Take Drink.) There is no symbolism here. This is a difficult teaching... will you accept it?

You left too early... it was long but the end was worth it

Atta girl; great choice!

God opens our eyes... No matter how clouded American Christianity makes them.

Faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9) and we see that just as God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, the man whose son Jesus saved from a demon said “Lord I believe, but help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:23) So God can actually grant us stronger faith. We can pray for it! Our will comes into play as we turn from sin and strive to obey God because we love Christ. As He says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15) And sometimes we’ll still need God to strengthen our will too! God bless brother. Really ❤️

@John SluderAny Christian can baptize. But you're right, no need to "re-baptize".

@John SluderThe power of baptism rests in Jesus’ promise (John 3:5; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 3:21), not in the person doing the baptizing. For that reason, the Lutheran church recognizes the validity of baptisms performed by laypeople. This often happens (and properly so) when there is an emergency, i.e., a situation where the candidate’s survival is in doubt. Most of the time a pastor will do it to maintain "good order" in the church, after all it is he who does have a special responsibility to care for the flock given to him by God. If you are ever in the Daytona Beach area, stop by Our Savior's Lutheran Church and ask for Ray Brown, and we can talk about it some more. Your's in Christ Jesus...

@John Sluder It's not actually a new trend. Philip (one of the first deacons set apart by the Apostles in Acts 6 to care for the poor so the Apostles could continue their ministry) baptized the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. Baptismal Sponsors? Adiaphora. What you are talking about are traditions, nice ones at that...but traditions nonetheless. Unless you could point out the existence of baptismal sponsors in the Bible. If old fashioned = conservative, you're probably going to find, of the large Lutheran synods, the Wisconsin is the most conservative. This is where I went to the seminary and this is whom I am a minister for … peace, Ray Brown.

​@John SluderI did not say I was a Lutheran pastor. I am a WELS lay minister (Congregational Assistant). I graduated from the Pastoral Studies Institute of the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary after a 4-year program in the Class of 2010. I also attended Martin Lutheran College in New Ulm, Minnesota. I have studied the Book of Concord and, a scribbled up copy of it is about three feet from me. In fact, I quoted the text of the official WELS Q&A to the question, Who can baptize? Go back in this thread to see my answer and compare it with this: wels.net/faq/who-can-baptize/. Who is your pastor? I'd love to talk to him. John Sluder, where do you live and what is your background? I've given you mine. Nothing to hide. Just the truth. Peace, Ray.

@John SluderBTW, with regards to your concern about the Bible, (1) you did not answer about where does it say in the Bible that only pastors can baptize? (2) you did not answer why it is recorded in the Bible that a Deacon ( a position similar to what I hold) named Philip (Acts 8) could baptize? and (3) where does the Bible say you must have baptismal sponsors? As I said, earlier in this thread, don't mix traditions with clear Biblical teaching.