I've revisited this vid a number of times now. Continues to make more and more sense every time. Thanks for doing this one. Takes a couple watches to grok it, but it's good stuff. Cheers.
Solid advice. The best teachers, on almost on almost any subject, are the ones with straightforward advice based on sound principals. Leave all the peacocking for the wannabe Internet gurus and let the real men talk. This kind of instruction might not be exciting, but it certainly is refreshing, especially when you have enough knowledge to separate the wheat from the chaff a bit.
The thing that keeps me coming back is Keith's experience. He's honed on just about every popular stone there is, synthetic or otherwise. His prose is awesome as well, I can't get enough of his one-liners! Having a background in geology is helpful, and actually honing hundreds of razors over many years is a plus, rather then just talking bullshit like so many people do.
Always fall back on this excellent instructional video. I pick up something different every time and it sticks a little better. There is so much detail in here. Well done Keith. No BS, just straight forward and to the point.
So right on so many levels. First one I honed was a new Giesen and Forsthoff 6/8. Took like 4.5 hours to set the bevel on a 1k Chosera. The edge looks like crap, but I've shaved off it close to 2 years. I didn't have anyone to show me other than what I saw on RU-vid. So I just did it. I was active on a forum then. I asked a genuine simple question and was attacked. Went to a different forum, copying and pasting the original question, and actually got some respect. They act like it's some big important thing. It's shaving. It's nothing to go to war over. Oh well, rant over. Yours was one of the better videos I've seen.
So true - it's freaking shaving, not surgery. If you don't get it right - redo it, and reset the bevel.. It's that simple. Some people worship guys who hone razors like they are master martial artists from ancient Japan. Sand off some metal, make an edge.
Hey Keith, I tried the tomato thing, and no offense to the doctor, but it's a fairly meaningless test. I guess it does tell you that you have some sort of edge on your razor, but beyond that, I don't see any value in ever trying it again. I tried it out of curiosity. No paper, tomatoes, soccer balls, etc. Shaving is the ultimate proof of how well a razor has been honed.
Posted almost 5 years ago, you're still the same straight forward plain speaking person in your videos today. Would you change anything in this video? I don't think you would but please let me know. I like the Sharpie on the edge technique, to detect gross errors, and alcohol will get it off afterwards. Looking at the edge straight on with a bright light for glints and reflections, that also works for me. The fingernail test, where you glide it across to see what the edge feels like, also works. "You can hone the same razor 15 thousand times and if you can only get yourself to an 8K edge how much experience do you really have?" That is just it. Practice does not make perfect. If you practice the wrong things and do them reliably you still wind up with a crap shaving edge. Only perfect practice makes perfect. And nobody is perfect but some of us keep trying. We won't get there if we think we already know everything. Writing stuff down, I've never heard anybody else say that. I do that and when my writings were discovered by my girl she asked if I was planning on spending 8K on some Asian prostitute named Naniwa Junpaku. So yes, write things down, but keep your writings private and secure. Nobody else will ever understand them. Maybe Jesus will. But like my girl pointed out, Jesus wore a beard. So maybe not. Some razors you just can't hone, some arguments you just can't win. I'm thinking of a small locked box that looks like a box you store a stone in. But with a small notebook inside. Well, more than one box. Three, maybe four, boxes. "Sometimes the loudest voice garners the most attention. But that may not be the best source of the information you're looking for." Another way of saying those that know the least often know it the loudest. I'm new to your channel and wish I'd found it much earlier. You sir, are a Sensei of more than just honing.
Hello, thank you for watching and the thoughtful words too. Nah, I wouldn't change anything in this vid; it's not perfect but it's does the job perfectly I think.
It's not done until it's done! Love it! This is the best video ever! Your the man Keith! Thanks for doing these videos, and passing down good, accurate information! No bullshit!
Came across your channel this weekend when I finally decided to give honing another shot after about a year (still unsuccessful but this is by far the most helpful video on the bevel set and I happen to have a chosera 1k so will try again), and I've been on a binge watching all your uploads on jnats and what not. Hoping to get a jnat or two once I can actually get a great shave off my naniwas 10 times out of 10. Anyway, your videos are awesome and I can sit and listen to you talk about stones and their history and geology all day in that straight-forward New Yorker style...one of your comments in a later video about people needing a helmet to go to the bathroom these days cause everyone's so sensitive now was one of the funniest true statements I ever heard.
Possibly. There are many different grades of Washita, and many levels of quality too. Without knowing the specific stone, it's impossible to say for sure so the only thing to do is try it.
I really enjoyed your video. I agree 100% with what you said. I was thinking to myself this fellow sounds like Rocky Balboa. Im from Ga., so our accent is different. Thanks for the video.
I am still trying to get the correct torque but in all fairness this was only my third honing session this morning. I have to wait till the morning to give it a shave test but looks and feels OK. All I have is a Norton 220/1000 and a 4000/8000. I have crox on a nylon belt and use that for a finisher. Not the best setup up but you need to start somewhere.
I could not sharpen my straight razor. I tried everything. I calmed down, started watching your video, and practicing what you were saying, and my razor is shaving again. Thank you Sir! Very much! A straight razor gives a shave second to none, and thanks to you, I can still shave with a straight razor.
how do you get the blade level if there are chips or waves? is it just a question of continuous sharpening/removing metal until the the edge is straight, or do you do something like "saw" down the edge by running it against a coarse stone, then, once straight, go back to setting the bevel?
Depends, there can be a few things at play; I’d have to see the blade in question. For many warped blades, a ‘rolling stroke’ gets all parts of the blade on the stone.
@@KeithVJohnson1 -thanks. it was more a theoretical question. I cut throat shave, but never set a bevel. I sharpen all my knives, mainly kitchen, on whetstones. thinking of adding a 8k to the collection,
I'm about to give up, lol. Ive tried a couple time to set a good edge on my old boker blade and just cant get anything shaveable. Ive got a nortaon 4k/8k stone, have tried with and without electrical tape, taken my time and still cant figure it out. Might have to just send it out again to get sharpened.
Thanks for the video. I have a couple questions What level of grit is good for a good shave? I have the Norton hones 4k and 8k. If these are lower grit than other brands what would be a good choice to add to these? You mentioned a wire edge from the back and forth honing. Can you refer me to some more info on this? I like this stroke, but maybe I need to try something else.
The concept of 'grit' and how it relates to a good shave is a very lengthy topic - there's way too much detail to cover here. Many people find good results by following the Norton 8k with a Naniwa 12k. But - some people say they like shaving off the 8k Norton - so there's a lot of personal preference that goes into this equation. Creating a wire edge isn't guaranteed by using head-on strokes, and avoiding one isn't guaranteed by using x-strokes. A lot of this has to do with choice of hone also; for example, Coticules almost never create issues no matter how you hone on them. Overall though, compared to 1/2 strokes, I find x-strokes to be a better method to creating a cleaner edge and it's way less prone to creating edge distractions like foils, burrs and wires. Some guys use circles to their advantage too. Horses for courses. There's just so many places to find info on honing, stroke types, etc - it's hard to point in any one direction. I wil however recommend Llyn Abrams' videos. The best thing though, is to just hone your ass off and keep on honing as much as possible. Knowledge is great, but wisdom rules the day and the difference between the two is experience.
This was a lot of fun to watch Keith. Great info in here. Picked up a lot. I now use that thumbnail test for bevel setting and found it to be very helpful. As I was going through testing the grab I could see in the light with my particular thumbnail that some spots grabbed with the weight of the 7/8 F H blade and slightly splayed out a little bit of my nail in front of the blade as it dug in a little deep. Other spots along the blade didn’t do that. So I did more work until it did the same thing from toe to heel. What a great consistent tool the thumbnail is. Great info about half stroke distance down the stone and pressure control and the torque on the blade looking at light reflection. That woke me up to a lot of how much the steel actually bends like that. All fantastic stuff for a novice like myself that I just didn’t pick up on before. The sound of that blade going back and forth is not only meditative but but just listening too it over and over really trains your ear too. Don’t know if you were going for that but just wanted you to know it is another great tool of knowledge in your video. Anyway I could go on and on and In the end I just want to say thanks again ! Great job ! ...I see now I wrote a comment earlier LOL ! I guess there is good reason why I just keep coming back to this video. 😊
Great to see someone made a video that doesn't make this sound like you are making a product for NASA. All you are doing is sanding off a little metal to an edge. Don't be so afraid guys to just try sanding off a little metal. Think of how they would have approached this 150 years ago. We got all freaked out over shit now and days and do analysis to death. This guy has the right approach - Just do it. It's not a mystery.
Can a bevel be set on the Carborundum-Aloxite stone? ( obviously the grey low-grit side of it). I have the old Barber's Special type of it and wonder what your opinion on this one is...
No way to know but I wouldn't want to try, for starters - it's too small. I would suggest using a typical 1k-ish stone - most work-arounds don't pan out too well.
I just ordered my first pretty beat up razor and I set the bevel using a humble soft Ark pocket stone that I lapped one side coarse and one side finely. It's worked great for me although not incredibly fast but not too slow either. I have some synthetics of my own but you know what I kinda really like the soft ark for this task. No worrying about being out of flat or doing much lapping and I just use dawn and water in on my soft arks. does a great job for me and honestly. 20 dollar soft ark if you're willing to learn to use it seems like a great bevel setter to me.
+Edmond Dantez Because you've decided to take the troll path with your closing comment on what will be your last effort in this thread, I have to remove you and the original discussion. The point of my channel is to pass on information and I will not tolerate beligerant commentary. It's apparent that you have very little understanding of the topic at hand - I'd have to guess that you are either brand new to honing, or that you've never actually honed a razor. You said that using your nail to test the edge will mess up your nail. It does not. Proof of that is my nails that are unscathed, I've been doing this for a long time and I've run hundreds of blades over my thumbnail. The same nail - in the same place. That one single fact is proof of your ignorance - and I have no need to continue itemizing every other blunder you've made in your attempt to appear/sound intelligent and conversant. Like I said - if you like using straws - then by all means, go use straws. But the fact of the matter is that your idea (which isn't yours or new btw) isn't as good as or better than anything else on the table. In fact, the theory is full of holes and flaws that don't need to be in the equation. I see the concept is a problem inducing one. I've backed that up with facts. Your rebuttals were ridiculous claims based on assumptions that you can't back up with facts. Your arguments border on, or cross over into, being ludicrous at nearly every single juncture. You are applying the wrong principals of physics to prove a point that has no merit and you're basing your 'findings' on a fabricated reality. Have a nice day and best of luck with your honing ventures.
I saw a guy on RU-vid using electrical tape he said the spine will wear out and eventually the bevel will be wrong if you keep going, but isnt it true that if you have a brand new blade, if you put electrical tape on the spine, the bevel will be too steep?
I havent' seen the video you are referring to, so I can't comment on what that person was saying exactly. But you should probably consider watching my video about the choosing to use or not use tape. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7c0BhpSX2UI.html
Of all the BS videos and the like. You have covered every aspect of honing, from picking up a razor, assessing it, to putting it in a state where you can move on. You didn't criticize, just got on with a common sense approach to, 'Not rocket science'. Newbies should all watch this video. Cheers mate.
Good stuff Keith! I've been spending more time on the bevel setting process and my edges continue to improve. The bevel truly is the foundation of a great edge. Love the Cpt. Pooba comment.
Its me again. Whats the deal with shoulders/stabilizers. on razors? Whats the best way to hone a razor with a stabilizer? Stabilizer on the stone or off the stone? To me it looks like a stabilizer would get in the way while honing.
That's a really long conversation that won't fit into this text box. Go slow, deal with what you have to deal with and don't try to learn everything in a day. In other words - chill.
Keith V. Johnson. understood. This guy Lynn abrams says he cants the stabilizer of the stone. Looks like to me if you do that you wouldn't have a sharp edge at the heel.
Tape has nothing to do with chipping. Since it is your first razor I'd think it's probably your technique. Could be your stones. I'd suggest learning on a used razor, make your mistakes there instead. Then move to the expensive stuff.
@@KeithVJohnson1 Sorry let me explain. I chipped the bevel on the faucet - strangely only one side of the bevel. But obvious enough to mar my strop. Wondering if I should tape the spine if I try to hone it back to shape.
you said that an 8K Norton is only about 4K according to Japanese standard. I use a King Delux 1200 to set the bevel and then an 4/8 Norton combo. My question in light of this, is there any point in using the 4K between the King and the Norton 8K. Also what would be good choices to finish a razor after the 8K Norton. I am getting a clean shave with it, but I think I am getting razor burn: face and neck itchy and sometimes irritated. I just feel it should be sharper. Joe
The Norton 8k is a 3µm stone - approximately 5k JIS. I do not know your 1200 King, so I can't advise whether or not the 4k Norton is useful to you. You should be able to tell by checking the striations on the bevel before and after using it though. If nothing else, leave it out of a progression to see what the finished edge is like when you shave. As for what to follow the 8k Norton with, I used to put the 8k Naniwa in there. I suppose you could try a 12k to see if that works for you. As for the edge not being sharp enough, most sharpness is developed before 8k. You might need to look into improving your bevel-set work.
I agree what you said towards the end of the video regarding the x pattern. Seems like if you go too far not only is balance an issue but it seems like the front of the blade has a lot more contact than the heel - spends more time on the stone. I can see on my blade that the bottom of my razor has a thinner bevel than the rest. I need to adjust my strokes.
Every so often someone puts up a post about using sandpaper for bevel setting. I think they start with a finer grit than 1k. I might be wrong about that but since an abrasive that is fixed in place to the top of a substrate should be markedly more aggressive than one that is, essentially, floating around in a softer binder - it might be worth considering a finer paper to start with.
Great video! This is one of those subjects where every kid in class thinks they are the only one with questions and are afraid to raise their hand. It’s also a classic video I’ll find just as useful on my first razor as my fiftieth.
Great video! I don't like all the drama and ego on the forums and Facebook either, I don't have time for it. Same thing happens in the knife community. That's not to say that there isn't good places to go and get information, and there are some great people too. I like the way you explain things, you point out the important subtle nuances to honing that often get overlooked when it's demonstrated.
Where could one reach Nelson? Sent a few razors out and I'm comparing the edges I sent out to my current edges. With my current skill set.. It's not the bows and arrows, it's the Indians skill on the horse with the bows and arrows that matter.. Have done so with 5-6 different sources... Thanks again and I drool over that high end mikawa set in your shop, those stones look ridiculous...👍👍 Soon enough I'll be getting a set like that from the best etsy shop in the game!!!!
Just salvaged an old Shumate at a small-town antique shop in Colorado. These videos are a huge help! :) (I've been honing knives and swords most of my life, but straight razors are like a whole different world with all their nuances)
Thanks for being so informative and thorough in this video. Been slowly trying to learn how to care and use my first razor for a while now. I don't spend a lot of time on the research. Too easy to get overloaded along with trying to decipher the garbage. Noticed the mention of Lynn. Was first videos I saw and have used more recently. Talking to the local store I bought my razor from (way over priced for everything), he said he tells people to not buy these because of the investment etc. Yet sells them along with the old double sided toss away ones. Glad I have this investment. Now when my son starts shaving in the future he may start with these razors. Will be looking at more of your videos another day.
Great information Keith. Is that a 1K Naniwa nagura? I haven't see one of those, and none of my Naniwa Pro Series (600, 1000 and 3000K) came with any. I like yours.
Excellent video thank you! I just ordered my first blade and am “ filtering” through the crap on RU-vid for good advice. Glad I found your channel Sir! Could you please tell me the name of the stones you use ie the 1000 and whatever else you use? Thank you again!
Hi, you’re welcome and thank you for watching! I usually hone on Shapton Pro stones, if you click the link in the description to my Etsy shop you’ll find them listed there - 1.5k, 5k, 8k, 12k.
Fantastic video. No nonsense, informative, thorough, and slow enough to for a beginner to understand. Truly a humanitarian contribution to society. Thank you.
Thank you for the nice comment! About the swarf - it depends on what's going on and where I'm honing. When I'm by the sink, I rise the stone off under running water, by my bench, there's no sink so I spray.
Awesome video Keith. After you set the bevel, whether that takes 5 minutes or an hour, do you still use the same strokes on the following stones (x-strokes primarily)? Also, how do you know when you are done on each of the higher grit stones, e.g. what would you look for before you say leave the 5k to go to 8k?
I usually use X strokes throughout my honing progressions. Learning to read feedback is the way to know when to jump to the next stone. There's no way to explain it because everyone's sensations, stones, razors, etc are all different. You learn by doing - and paying close attention to what is going on while doing it. After a while you can associate one 'thing' with another 'thing' and then 'everything ' starts to fall into place.
Keith V. Johnson One more noob question. If I’m running Chosera stones, can you go from the 5k to say the 12k to finish, or do you suggest something in between those two. I have the 1k and 12k, but have been using the Norton combo stone and would like to stick with a set from Naniwa.
@@Cdub33 there is no 12k Chosera. No 8k either. As for whether or not you can jump from any 5k to any 12k - well, you can do anything. The question is, will you like the results better with or without the 8k in the middle? Only way to know is to try. My Shapton progression, if I am going to go full-synthetic, is 1.5k, 2k, 5k, 8k, 12k. That works best for me.
This video came up in recommended, so I thought I would watch it. It's good to see that someone else dose things the same as myself, maybe I am doing things right. One question which doesn't relate to this video, is that I am seeing a lot of stuff on these convex Ark's. As I have to picture things in my mind on how things work, it seems that all that is happening is you are increasing the angle, which is why it would seem to work so well, but I could be wrong, the picture really isn't making sense to me. I have watched the video's of why and how they work, but even that doesn't seem to satisfy the picture in my head. I aren't that smart, so a lot of things go over my head. What are your thoughts on it. I don't want to get you into trouble with the razor community (a lot of fanboys there), as it seems a lot have jumped on board of this new craze, but maybe I just don't get it. Thanks.
Thanks Mark! Edit - I just saw your question about convex stones. I've worked with all kinds of hone surfaces, with all sorts of shapes, curves, radii; convex and concave too. Me, I'm not impressed with the results off anything but a flat stone, and I find the concept honing on anything that isn't flat to be inherently problematic. To each their own though.
yeah, the pressure is the part that i'm trying to get figured out. i find that when i end up using two hands i end up with toe and heel getting set but not the middle. still learning. i think i put too much pressure on the spine as well and not enough toward the edge for fear of torquing it. I'll try with your finger placement and see if that help keep the pressure even between edge and spine.
Hi, thank you for watching and commenting. A lot of what needs to be done depends on how the frown got there in the first place. It' can be caused by complex problems, the solution depends on on unknown variables. It's a good question to post in a FB group where you can post detailed photos.
Great video like always thank you! I agree with you about Lynn Abrams. Almost 4 years ago when I started honing I learned watching his videos and Glenn's as well I even went to his store in Ohio to buy my first razor. I have learned from a lot of people and I'm still learning with videos like these.
Great advice on honing, thank you for sharing your experience with us. Would you consider setting the bevel with a lower grit stone why or why not? How do you decide what grit to start at does the blade really need to be in bad shape to go lower than 1k?
Sure, I use coarser grits when needed. You can set a bevel on anything, Its just a matter of time. I'd rather spend 10 minutes on a 1k than 45 min on a 3k. What one decides they need isn't neccessarily based on one condition alone, it's best viewed as both balance and compromise..If a razor only needs a slight cleanup and a 3k will do it, sure - use it. No one will die if you decide to use a 1k first though. Whatever wear/grinding is needed to return the bevel to its desired state is - is what it is.
Just wanted to say "Thank you" for taking the time and effort to making this video. I am new to straight razor shaving and now realise there is so much to learn. I am about 6 shaves in with a straight razor and still have both my ears and my nose. Bought a Dove five eights, half hollow, round toe. I am a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to matters like this as I like things to be right, this comes from my days as a draughtsman I think, I now work in a Dementia Unit so life has changed a lot. My one saviour has been this interest in shaving and trying hard to manage to get good results. Just need help with what to do next, buy an old razor and try to make it work again? What do you think.
I was thinking of getting a Naniwa 1K, 5K and 8K. I have already got a 12K Naniwa stone, just to hone my new razor, but fancied having a go at an old razors to see if I can do it. Is E.Bay a good place to look, I guess you don't have to spend a fortune on an old razor, are there any to avoid? Thanks again for your time to reply.
Picking out razors to restore is a bit of an artform itself - that's a huge topic and a never ending one too. Just pick something that looks to be in decent shape and don't spend more than you want to. You may get stuck here/there, but overall you'll do ok. Don't buy 40 razors your first time out - go slow, learn what to look for first.
Well, you could mess up pressure, or maybe cause issues with too much embedded swarf on the stone,, or maybe you could wind up creating a wire edge that snaps off and leaves an unfinished bevel that has to be redone.
I've honed knives for years, but am struggling with straight razors. Your trick with the heel leading seems to be a HUGE help. For some reason I can't get the 2 sides to match bevel angle wise. The side I push stroke away from me looks nice and uniform but the side I pull towards me looks all wacky.
Bevel angle is hard to gauge by eye. I'd guess that you might be looking at a differences in the wear pattern, which could be that your return stroke has been getting less pressure. It's a common issue. It's also possible the grind on the razor is whacked and factoring into the story.
Well my first two attempts were with WSP Gold Dollars. I learned the hard way why Gold Dollars sent recommended for newbs. JESUS that spine! So I recently got a new Dovo Best Quality. BTW do you recommend tape or no tape for a beginner like me?
Some people love those razors, I'm not one of them. The spine, the grind, the heel, the toe - all of it usually needs to be 'fixed'. Waste of time IMO. Dovo Best razors have had some issues in the past also. But assuming it's not warped you're probably ok. There's nothing wrong with learning on tape - most any bevel angle change from the tape can be rectified later on fairly easily. But - tape is a pita, you have to constantly change it out as it wears and most likely between grits/stages too. So - it'll save you wear on the spine, but piss you off during the honing; a double edged sword of sorts. Before just going ahead and using tape though - get a caliper and measure the bevel's angle. The tape will add 1˚ to the equation; so, if you're starting high, like - around 19˚ or so, you'll wind up with a 20˚bevel. It's entirely possible that you won't like shaving with an edge honed that steep. So there's that. I'd guess the Dovo is going to come in around 18 or a bit under though. Thing is - before messing with geometry and/or making any decisions like that - you need to know what your start point is first.
I also have a 1926 Boker "The King" that I bought fully restored from Razor Emporium. I'm comparing my edge to that one. I don't plan on doing any honing on that for quite some time! That one will be getting honed by a professional. It'll take quite some time before I get to that level I'm sure. Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. If you don't mind, I'd like to check in from time to time to pick your brain.
Keith V. Johnson ok thought so. let me ask you this do you tho k that taller blades feel better when honing. i know it sounds weird but they seem more solid on the stones/hone almost like it feels more flat. almost like a long wheelbase car feels better than say a little geo metro tiny car when going down the highway. i have been interested in 3/8 blades but not sure until i try one. i have two, to comapare and one is noticeably taller than the other and the taller blade feels nice when honing for some reason. any thoughts on this theory of mine?
@@KeithVJohnson1 ok maybe it's the steel. One says blue steel on it but I'm not sure if it real Aogami or if it's a US counter part. But something feels different for sure. Plus the non blue steel has a very loose pair of scales on it. And it's annoying to have it your hand.
So now I know why I’m not quite getting descent shaves with vintage razors I get- I just learned how to use a straight and just as recently learned how to hone- and am just now learning what the bevel is- which is the one thing you need or else you’ve got nothing. So BASICALLY, you keep it on the 1k UNTIL you have a uniform bevel. I usually stopped when I saw a lack of metal being taking off etc- Now I have a new benchmark to look for.
You stay on the bevel setting until both bevel faces meet at a point/line that is as thin and true as possible. The bevel can be wildly uneven, visually; but each side has to be parallel to the other, true, and with a well developed apex at the intersection. You should be able to manage a shave off the bevel setter.
