This is definitely a guy that has taken the audio journey. 20 years of swapping gear in and out will allow you to look past the name brand and focus on sound. I just started meeting local audio nuts, here in Seattle, and documenting their theaters. Because of you and your channel, it motivated me to go for it. Thank you! Keep up the killer videos!
Thomas & Stereo Thank you for the kind words! It’s been fun watching your channel grow and evolve. Just love the content you are putting out. Keep it up and I’ll keep watching!
Once again Thomas another great post. Thank you Dennis for letting us all enjoy your system. No Matter what anybody says we're all extremely envious and itching to pop over and listen to this bad boy.
Thanks Paul. I like doing these kind of video and especially rewarding when my viewer appreciates it. Also, the fact my subs are kind enough to open up their home to me to film. The drive just to get to his place was like an hour probably.
for some who are curious of the rest of the HT is ,here's a list: tv pioneer elite 60'' plasma processor Pioneer elite sc-07 140watts ch. 7.1 class D ice power amp speakers direct buy from Tyler Acoustic custom made to match the fronts tyler acoustic PD30's subs 2x15'' CSS SDX ported box amplified with Crown XTI 6002 in 4 ohms per channel Bluray player is the Oppo 103D apple tv
Let's not go too far. Loud fan needs to be swapped out for a whisper fan and output power is overrated. Lots of power for not much money but best suited in Home Theater environment.
That is only an opinion. The cameraman heard things he has not been able to hear before after listening to the CD on hundreds of systems. That carries far more weight than someone's opinion. People are allowed to have an opinion but audio is all about the listening.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt The new Crown amplifiers have fans that seldom goes on at all. And if you play very loud, you will not be affected by the fan anyways.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 Really? The fans are temperature activated so when the loud music breaks for a quiet part, you think the fan instantly shuts off because the music went quiet? Don't be ridiculous. The fan shuts down when the amp temp goes down which isn't going to always coincide with the music or movie. If the load is difficult, the fan will come on regardless of how loudly the music is playing at any rate.
carlos oliveira When I had a XLS1502 I never heard the fan. As long as the amp is not pushed to the limits it stays quiet. For me it would never be a problem.
Tell your friend as someone who grew up with Martin Logan quests in his house and then sold my father's quests in my own stereo store. The best amp I ever head on them was Sim Audio. I was shocked how transparent the speakers became. They just disappeared. I think I had Acoustic Zen cables on them. Seriously they are current hungry and I was amazed how much better they sounded with that amp. Maybe you can come back with your Sim amp and try it on his speakers and think you will be shocked how reference level it will sound.
I would not be surprised that it will make a difference. Something to do maybe later on in summer because a round trip to his place is about 2 hours+. I am also curious how the crown will sound in my system to compare to lets say the schiit vidar and Iotavx PA3.
@@ThomasAndStereo I mean I am sure the Crown stuff is OK, but they are way better as amps for subs, they really don't have great top end definition or decay, I am sure they were ok on the reQuests, but Vidar will probably have less dynamic control, but better top end and sound more linear on top. Crown's just aren't a refined amp, which is great if you need lot's of power for non complex frequencies like bass. Keep in mind Crown is part of the Harman Group, they actually make real high end gear to begin with and Crown really is not what they sell to the high end segment. Mark Levinson is, and also Proceed was, but Sim Trumps them all. Their Power supply engineering is second to none for solid state, and they really control speakers quite well.
@@zacharydoering313 synergy forget the brand, when i heard these amps first hand i wasnt blown away by the refinement but i saw potential because they let the speakers and the other units do their job... a good match is a good match:) for me speakers first source second preamp 3 amp last.... that how i atribute the importance in my chain to get the sound signature i was looking for.
@@planchernewfinish you are 100% right that it is the synergy and not the brand, but my point is Martin Logans really can shine, more than I ever expected, with the right gear. they are also really picky about gear too. I have even heard them with Classe, and I don't think the syngergy is there. Honestly my 2 cents worth is this. I am from the Kansas City area where ML is based. When I met Gail Sanders one of the founders, he commented that high current tube gear, specifically VTL monoblocks, were the best he ever heard his own speakers. For me very few solid state components have the refinement of tubes with the transparency and harmonic complexity of tubes. Sim is one of those few brands that gets very close. And that sonic signature combined with high current control is critical for most planar speakers, but especially Martin Logans. My father had a Cinepro amp that was designed with tthe Quest in mind and went down to 2 ohms, he combined it with a classe pre-amp and things sounded OK...,they tended to sound the most transparent on certain recordings and favored vinyl of all things, but trust me the SIM is a whole other level I had never heard the speakers sound like that. Imaging was quiet and hyper realistic and sounded like the speakers disappeared which is very hard to do with such a low impedance speaker. Just trust me as a former dealer who has played with a lot of gear. This was a match made in heaven, and mind you this was on their middle range 150 watt MOON 5.3 amp and pre.
Nice system. I too am in awe of Martin Logan ESLs, but gave up on them because they wear out. I still miss my Ascent though. Agree with the power amp thing. I think we all could spend less on power and more elsewhere to get better results. I recall some experiments by Julian Hirsch (I believe) years back that was very controversial to audiophiles. He and Bob Carver did double blind listening tests independently with budget amps and audiophile amps. I guess I don’t need to tell you that the panel could not successfully tell the difference with any statistical validity. I don’t recall the gear used and I know that’s what the naysayers are thinking, but I do recall it was all top notch references. I applaud this system for that.
Excellent job Thomas and I hope you do more of this type of journalistic type of stuff. This is Steve Guttenberg type of reporting Thomas, I guess we will call you the Audiophilliac #2, but in all seriousness, you are truly growing my friend, keep up the great work and yes the room is a component of itself that must be address if you can do it and thank you Denis for allowing Thomas to do this.
Thanks, yeah it is nice to share what I see on my audio journey. I see a lot of great systems at all kind of price bracket and I love the passion they put into it. Nice to hear from you Sid.
It's interesting that Martin Logan has lost much of it's cachet with 'audiophiles".No mentions in the old school or new school press (mags,sites,blogs) but back in the day a few models were perennial faves (especially the full panels no subs).Now you see tem at Best Buy so they are sold more than ever but interesting that audiophiles prefer Maggies or Quads.I am sure the CLX sounds amazing but I would love a shootout between $5-10K electrostatics,planar,and dipole/baffleless.Maybe ML Vantage (is that still being made?),Maggie 3.7i,and Pue Audio Project or Spatial.They will render with different tonal qualities yes but I would like to get idea of different soundstage and imaging head to head.This was great thanks to you all
Beryllium tweeters came about as a means of box speakers, having the better high end extension of said electrostatic | ribbons | dipoles and so on, hence their strengths over speakers in boxes, has always been a greater sense of top end resolution, and not the other way around........., hence the dipoles are where the search for highs begins, and has it in spades.
What a setup! Pity we don't get to hear it play music at some stage. I understand the argument of not getting "high fidelity" sound through Y.T. however, one gets a very clear sonic picture of what a system is capable off, even within the limitations of this media. Perhaps another visit somewhere else Thomas? Just a 2 or 3 min. of actual demo would be greatly appreciated. I don't know if others agree, let's here opinions in the comments below.
well, the whole video will get demonetize if I play 2 or 3 mins of demo. I have to look for non copyright songs with vocals. I find a lot with instruments but I like with vocal. Suggestions?
@@ThomasAndStereo LOL! ..well, yes of course, ..didn't think of that! Perhaps some Jazz music? There's plenty of great high res. recordings that can be used as demos as they don' t have any vocals. Also, "challenging" music, such as J.S.Bach's 'Toccata and Fugue' (there's also some fine recordings of this) that will expose any sound system to extremes, i.e. very low and very high Organ notes. I have noticed that in many HIFI shows, exhibitors avoid playing such things as it would really give any system something to 'think about' ... ...and, happy New Year and many happy musical moments Thomas from a very hot 'down under'!
Great video. Thanks for sharing. It is very difficult to find a good room in most homes in NA despite having great square footage (square meters). This room is no exception 23x23 and 7ft ceiling? The ceiling reflections will be big part of the sound one hears. High efficiency speakers are required to mask the noise of the Crown amps cooling fans :). It would be interesting to hear the sound of this system as well. Also any information of how much it cost the guy to build his own sub woofers or what not. I always admire people that are designing/building their own gear.
i have an uneven ceiling 7'.2'' to 8' , and electrostat like horns are not projecting to vertically so it's not to affected by height, the amps in the xti series2 and xls have very silent fans while the music plays you''ll never hear them. the K2 however has no fan. for the 12'' i used 3/4'' mdf and on the outside glued another 3/4'' russian birch to help with resonances ,since they dont resonate at the same frequencies it help a bit, it kinda works, but its very heavy id say 200lbs each with the speakers in. 46lbs is just the 12'' alone:) its a beast but with very good sounding bass. bracing inside the box also. total cost approx 1100$ for both you can add a bit of sweat,blood and cursing :)) the amps i bought them on the used market xls 2000 go roughly in the +- 400$
@@planchernewfinish Denis, thank you for clarifying the details about your room and equipment. Great setup, congratulations. Electrostats have narrow dispersion pattern when it comes down to higher frequencies than conventional dome tweeters. That is they are more directional. This is especially true for vertical pattern dispersion (spinorama). Though this doesn't mean the ceiling reflections that arrive to your ears much sooner than if you had higher ceiling don't contribute to the overall perception. These are the basics of room acoustics. I would have changed my home several times over if not for my dedicated 2 channel room. I don't mind giving stepping down when it comes to HT setup, but I cannot justify it with with 2 channel audio setup. Room is just as important as the equipment. You may want to experiment with room treatment as that is relatively inexpensive investment that yield incredible return on investment. If it was me I would also try to re-arrange subwoofer and speaker placement. I don't know what other side of the room looks like, but I would experiment with speaker and sub placement. Judging by the video it appears that your speakers are really close to the back wall. In my experience such placement is only justified when you have tonal shift towards mid/upper range due to lack of bass when dedicated sub is not available. Placing subwoofers in the near field (by the couch...) and moving speakers towards the middle of the room will help you eliminate room affects and achieve better imaging. It is possible you have tried all sorts of scenarios, it is hard to communicate using the youtube comments section. Just thinking out loud. This is not to put down your system/decisions you have made bur rather sharing ideas based on personal experience.
@@museatex111 thx for the input, i appreciate you chipping in some personnal experience. my setup presently is 40'' from the rear wall, the configuration is still in progress ,so far with no to little treatment its the best to date. i just bought a mic to help me with frequencies curve in the room, i'm a total newbie at this type of mesurements but its much less guessing game and more precise decisions to make in terms of room treatments i have to put.
@@planchernewfinish Rew is a great tool and easy to use. You will see what your acoustic panels and bass traps do. Also it should help you setting up you multi sub system. It would be near impossible to obtain similar results relying on ears alone. Have fun.
Me and a buddy made some bass traps once . You can get large concrete form tubes at Home Depot and pack it as per instructions found online. Go to Home Depot or Lowe’s and get some tubes y’all:)
Bass traps have to be enormous to be effective. I would wager if you measured the room before and after you were working at a higher frequency than where the room boom was located. A lot of nonsense online.
Well, the only crown amp I had were the xls1000 series and I felt it was more gear towards home theater. I need to try their other products to have a better idea.
I've been wanting to experiment with a crown amp for a while now. Alot of power for very low cost, I'd like to feed my spatial audio open baffles alot of power to see how they respond vs the low watt all tube gear I'm used to. A few hundred bucks for a 250 watt crown amp on the used market is very tempting!
Really love video like this. Thank you for showing us your system. If I can have a suggestion (perhaps request :)), would be really nice if we can hear a short sound demo for video like this :). Nevertheless, this is great. Happy New Year!!!!
Interesting system ! I enjoyed this, although he's gonna go deaf if he continually listens at IMAX volume levels. Thomas, the reason you hear more information (not calling it detail) is due to the very low distortion that electrostatic speakers have. Just my opinion, IMHO.
Visually, the Tyler Acoustic PD30 speakers hits you first, wonder how it sounds. Also wondering why he didn't hook up a projector screen cus his tv seems small relative to his setup.
Gilbert hi Gilbert the tylers are smooth and dynamic, when you listen to a movie your in it and i’m ”only“ in 7.1 . The tv was bought instead of a projector because its plasma and nothing comes close naturalness ,contrast, etc... so a projector was out of the equation 60“ does the job :)
Hi Guy's love this system. I have a martin logan theater music system using SL3's as mains and run a plinius MKIV 250. and other plnius amps for the other ML speakers in a 5.2 setup. Crown amps keep popoping up as great options for ML's wondering if you tried the Drive 2 models on the Requests? How do they compare to the K1 K2? Thanks Rick
The class D can be hard sounding on Some music, i wouldnt say harsh just more on the cold side. But with the right cables nothing fancy you can get really good results. The k1 and 2 is more "conventional" ab amp, smoother results.
you watch videos and you talk with friends,experience,and a minimum knowledge on specs how they interact with each other,how they influence the sound ...sometimes pure luck helps :)
Hey Thomas - Love all your reviews! One tip, if I may, to polish your already accomplished English ... "Gear" is always singular, and refers to more than one item. Best regards, Vic
Those look like the original panels with the black spars. I have a pair of Odysseys and the panels went bad, so I had to get Martin Logan to Manufacture new ones for me. How did you get your panels to last so long?
Nice! But is the dog analog or digital???? I would have liked to hear more about the diy bass traps. I do have a question that is kind of related: He has two sets of speakers, one for home theatre, and one for 2 channel stereo, but they are sitting right beside each other. Some one told me that when you are listening to 2 channel stereo, you should not have any other speakers sitting passively beside your 2 channel speakers, as the passive speakers can affect the sound of the 2 channel speakers, even though the other speakers are not on and are just sitting there. Have you ever heard or noticed this? I see a lot of pictures from reviewers where they will have other sets of speakers sitting close to the ones they are reviewing, and often wonder if it affects the sound of the speakers being reviewed.
Lol. Thanks for the comment Dennis. For sure there will be compromises when putting 2 speakers side by side but this is real life, can't have everything 😔. I have the same issue but I am ok with it.
i did try with no speakers around and frankly found no difference whats so ever, as long as you have front to back room to breath its ok. for the bass traps, i'm not very good in technical stuff but roughly what it does is the sound hits the damping pad and what ever vibration it picks up the roxul behind it nuls it but you have flat surface that reflects other frequencies. it kinda keeps the room more on the lively side. but helping the lower frequencies.
Hey Thomas, There is a real interest in Crown Class D. Perhaps you could elaborate on the subject? What are your thought about this amp and speakers that you think it can sound synergistic with?
Well, to give you any meaningful analysis, I would need to spend time trying different crown amps. Perhaps you can reach out to them and let them know to send me some. If enough people reach out to them, they will consider.
@@ThomasAndStereo Done. I've sent them a mail and asked some friends to do the same. Didn't know Crown is owned by the HARMAN group 🤔 I hope they'll respond.
@@ThomasAndStereo OK, looking forward to your impressions. Had it on my radar (kind of). Digital isn't always easy to evaluate, sometimes the differences are subtle and system dependent.
Hi, First of all amazing system , and nice to watch video. I would like to ask about subwoofers if they have any passives crossover(component )or just connected to Crown. And I searched for this test CD everywhere with no results. Thomas if you know where I can purchase please let me know. Regards from Poland
hi michal S the subs use the internal xover in the xls amp they are cut at 50hz which is the lowest setting on the amp,if my memory is good they use 24db slopes on the active xovers.
Thanks, The cd, I don't think you can buy them anymore. I found it on ebay and I paid an arm and a leg. www.hifige.com/album/14107.html HIFI IMMENSITY HIFI無極限
Surprised he found success with the crown and the logans. I tried the Crown XLS1502 (Two-channel, 525W at 4Ω Power Amplifier) with my Martin Logan electromotion ESLs and high frequencies were noticeably harsh and fatiguing compared to my class A/B Adcom GFA 5500. Which model is he running and is he running it in mono? I wonder if you really need to overpower when using Class D to get good clarity.
Well his Crown are not really class D, so maybe that is why. When he put the real budget Crown class D amp in, I did hear the 'harshness' so it was not ideal of long listening session.
I used the Crown K2 on the Martin logans, the xls 2000 were bridged for each sub, but i just bought a K1 for the Martin logan , its slightly richer sound but keeping the detail, the K2 went on the subs, to keep synergy...
Great video you guys. Liked and subbed. Thomas, I really do hope you have a pair of Wharfedale Evo 4.4 coming your way - this speaker really deserves to be reviewed.
Thanks Kevin, I don't have wharfedale coming to me, if you can send them an email, and if enough people send them an email, they might end up reaching out to me.
@@ThomasAndStereo I actually did a few days ago, I got the tip from Sean at Zero Fidelity to do so. Mentioned you among 5 others, hopefully Wharfedale see the worth in sending out a few review units.
How tall is ceiling ? Seems low Does it affect sound ? Wonder if new Martin Logan’s similar time 13 a or 15 a would allow to be used for both music and HT instead of having separate speakers . Thanks
It was normal height ceiling, maybe 8ft? I know my Quad with were flat speakers like these were not bothered by the side wall unlike traditional speakers so maybe these also are not bothered by the side and height. Have to read up on it. Of course, we all would love to have 12 ft ceilings but....
First off, great setup , not trying to take away from that... Are Crown amps a great value, sure... Are they outputting 6000W on a single 15 amp or 20 amp outlet, impossible.. "So, on a continuous basis, you can't draw more than 1800 (15 x 120) watts out of a standard outlet. If the amp is 90 percent efficient, then you can put 1620 watts into a speaker - on a continuous basis. That's a best case (nothing else plugged into that circuit) practical limit that you're not going to get past, unless you get special power everywhere you go".
i have a 30 amp seperate line for the 6002 :) and the way its connected to the 15'' css sdx its putting 2100 watts per channel... the other amps are just putting a few watts per channel with the volume i listen my music. and they are on 2 seperate 15 amp line. hopes that helps :)
Thomas & Stereo I couldn't make out the title of that CD. Could you please tell us the title or the album name of the CD that was briefly shown. Thanks Thomas!
@@garytoth2122 Thanks, The cd, I don't think you can buy them anymore. I found it on ebay and I paid an arm and a leg. www.hifige.com/album/14107.html HIFI IMMENSITY HIFI無極限
I wonder how Crown amps could be rated for that much power, possibly perpetual motion machine? In case of 100% efficiency of the amplifier and maximum domestic accepted draw of 120V 20A, circuit can't supply more than 2400W. In most Montreal homes, it's even less: no more then 1800W draw from 1 outlet.
Right on the back of the Crown XLS 2502 is stamped 425 watts, which has to be the maximum power consumption. I would love to know how they are claiming this power output as well.
hes the black sheep :) I'm just testing so many things its fine amp but my room is bass hungry so the bottom end is a bit shy but the rest is fun to listen to.
Cool interview! Interesting also considering using class D all over the place and Crown amps. One thing that comes to mind though is this. If crown amps are they at Fantastic along with so inexpensive why in the world wouldn't 90% of audio files choose them as their amps? Their low price tag power and supposed resolution it is too good to be true. Otherwise you would have to say almost all of us audio files have been duped. If crowns were that fantastic meaning resolving fantastic sounding it would make no sense for someone to Let's a get a Class A B $2,000 power amp. No offense but this is logical isn't it?
matching is crucial for first and not to everybody's taste, a friend audiophile told me : its amazing!! but it only weighs 11 lbs,and has no big face plate.... goes to show some like to have it all :) joke aside i'm not saying its be all end all thing its just surprisingly good!
@@planchernewfinish thanks for your reply :-) you are not implying that other people buy Class A or Class A B amps just because they look pretty correct? There must be something to it with the sound also. My point is this which I think you understood me but not sure. If someone can pick up a crown amp for let's say 4 to $800 instead of paying two to four thousand dollars for a power amp why wouldn't they? The only reasoning could be that many people tried the cheap route and it wasn't worth it compared to more expensive gear. The same goes for let's see a preamp or a DAC. So a $500 DAC is as good as a $2,000 dac. Not seeing your system sounds poor or sounds bad just stating that you get what you pay for. Otherwise everyone would just get Crown amps and all these other companies would be out of business if they sounded that fantastic. So I guess my feeling is this, maybe your amps sound like a 6 out of town but other class D Class A B and Class A amps sound like an 8 or 9 out of 10. If you're happy with the six out of ten sound congrats
Well, the issue is synergy. These amps might not pair well with a lot of systems out there. It work well with this system but one cannot conclude because it work well with one system that it will work well with all systems. That is why when people tell me they heard speaker A and it sounds meh, I always ask 'with what gear?' There are times where my class d amp will outperform my class A Amp because of the speaker I was using at the time. I am in the camp you get what you pay for but I am also in the camp when synergy is achieved, the whole system will raise up by a level. Sure putting higher end gear will make a difference but one also have to balance between cost vs performance. There is no limit on how much we can spent in audio, anyone can do that. Now to achieve amazing sound with the least money possible, now that is interesting. Infact, I will make a few videos on it with examples.
@@ThomasAndStereo thanks for chiming in Thomas. I hear what you are saying but I think it is safe to say when you invest more you get more and yes there is a point of diminishing returns but scraping the bottom of the barrel price wise isn't going to get you the most refinement otherwise as I stated it would make no sense for anyone to purchase these higher-end Brands and higher-cost items when they could just get Crown amps all day everyday
@@ryanschipp8513 Well, if you ever live with electrostatic speakers, their 'refinement' is not like the kind of 'refinement' found in traditional speaker like Focals. Instead if I have to choose between power and refinement to power my electrostatic, I would go with power. Would it be better if I have both power and refinement at the same time, sure and that is why I spend a lot on my frontend. Having said that, Denis has gone thru many amps before and having 20 years of experience, for him to settle on this setup is not out of ignorance. I understand your point and if crown was so good, then it should sell like hot cakes. I would say it is good for certain setup only and in this case, it works. We AB test it against the conrad johnson on the Tyler acoustic speakers, me and Mr Kanta preferred the Crown. This we did not expect and that alone is worth a discussion because me and Mr Kanta discussed it at lengths as to what that crown amp did better than the Conrad johnson. Not all the crown amps we heard over there were 'ok'. For example, the one that is class D was meh. The Crown K2 was the one we preferred, Would it sound better if I brought over my Moon w5.3, perhaps (and I hope so) but I have to AB test it to know conclusively. In the world of stereo, one thing I learn is 'you never know until you plug it in.'
nobody ever mentions how loud the system can play. if a system can play an orchestra at 100+ db's in a very large space I can justify the costs easier. almost anything can fill a small space.
Yeah, they can play IMAX loud. Denis mentioned it in the beginning of the video why he got it. (Unless I have edited it out cause I cut out many things to keep the video short)
i have to change one of my doors or at least fix it it totally delaminated in the back when the bass kicks in a certain frequency its as if someone was hitting the door with a big wooden spoon like a mad man!! when it happen the first time my heart stop!!! with HT it can get very loud, the 2 way is more subtle,but it can play loud for sure:)
Class H for the hometheater subs. For mid/high is the Crown K2 poweramp. I thought it was class D but not exactly, it has a torroidal transformal in it.
this is what i picked up from crown and a few sites...Using patented Balanced Current Amplifier (BCA) circuitry, K Series amplifiers give you massive amounts of power while generating just one-tenth the heat of conventional amplifiers....Highs are excellent (on the K1, K2 ) for a switching amplifier. After some research I have found that the K Series amps are similar to "Class D" (Pulse Width Modulated) amplifiers however they run at 250khz switching/pulse frequency (greater than 10x the frequency we can hear) therefore they can accurately reproduce the audible spectrum with excellent clarity
@@planchernewfinish You are confusing amplifier topology with PSU design. If the amp has an SMPS then it shouldn't have a toroidal transformer in it. Those amps are Class D with an SMPS "hybrid" PSU. I believe the H in their Class H™ designation stands for hybrid. Those amps aren't designed for hifi but pro audio use powering low impedance loudspeaker groups like speaker modules in a J-array. Those amps couldn't hold a candle to hifi amps like say a Pass Labs, ATI or Parasound Halo. Low end sure highs certainly not.
I can't tell without doing an AB test at my home. With my Quad for example, even if I put a refined amp with it, it will not be as refined as my kanta cause the top end presentation is different.
