Hi folks. I have just bought a 2011 Subaru Forester Boxer diesel 2.0L manual gearshift, 100k miles on the clock, and does have VDC. This thread impressed me. HOWEVER: 2nd day I had it, I had to stop (going up)on a slope (to remove some rocks) on a hard packed dirt track with SOME scattered grit/gravel here and there. When I got back in and tried to drive on, all I heard was spinning tyres. Got out and had a look... - Front right, and rear left wheels were spinning on some grit, other wheels on solid packed dirt (solid grip) and no traction going to them (obviously, since I could not go forward). In the end my only option was to roll back down and go again with momentum. Firstly - all tyres the same make and with good level of tread. 2nd - I have been driving in ALL conditions (except frozen lake and deep sand dunes) for 54 years, including large part of life in East Africa (hard packed dirt and grit etc). I bought this vehicle (yes - it DOES have VDC) because I need it where I now live (remote farm and snowed in fairly often in winter, UK). I had Toyota Hiluxes previously, but had to buy a replacement and none available in my price range, so this Subaru was only available choice and seemed a good option when I looked into this (to me) new make of vehicle! The dealer professed mystification (total ignorance of Diff behaviour in such situations, how the AWD works in this vehicle, and whether VDC (applied braking instead of LSD) should have operated to get my up the slope). Asked another (more dedicated Subaru) dealer. Again - ignorance...-"Well, everybody loves their Subaru, never hear of a problem" was the highest level of technical answer there. (Again, went cross-eyed when I explained how I expect the AWD in this vehicle, with VDC, to behave). Asked another MORE dedicated Subaru dealer 80 miles away. HE said "The 2011 doesn't have LSD, and no - the brake system at that model (the above details are what I told him of my model) would NOT have been in place, but it IS on all later models since". I checked with him specifically: "Surely the ABS aspect of the VDC should have applied braking to slow the spinning wheels and transfer some of the power/drive to the non-spinning wheels that DID have traction?". His answer was that this understanding was INCORRECT for what my model has. (I thought VDC has been there since around 2009?...) So - as I understand, that video (this thread ) was done in 2011(?), and all the posts here have confirmed my thinking that the brakes (ABS) should have slowed the spinning wheels, forcing the diffs on each axle to transfer some of the drive to the non-moving wheels through the diff. Also, the video only had ONE wheel on solid ground, yet I had 2 wheels on solid ground... Yet - I am told locally(?!) that I can NOT expect this vehicle to do what the video shows Subaru doing. Your thoughts, please?... I have 3 months of dealer warranty (now shortened by 2 weeks) to figure out if this vehicle is what I need for the next winter.
You have been ripped off just like all of us that have a AWD Subaru, the system is weak because the running gear is not strong enough to be 4WD you can't brake it because front and rear are not connected at the same time, the best way to name the AWD system is gimmick, it defeats the objective of moving forward when the wheels have grip and don't drive any fool would agree 😂
So I guess most manufacturers slap on an AWD label on their fwd drive car platforms. Put in some subpar system and charge the consumers premium and false sense of traction for that AWD label?
+dabambz That is it, they know that most car buyers will never take their vehicles off road, therefore they put in pseudo 4WD and give it names like "intelligent", "on demand", yet they cant do squat when things hit the fan.
Watch how they half ass the gas pedal on all of them but the subaru.. they clearly have their foot planted to the floor.. my crv would go right up that.. wheres the ramp I'll show you
i tested my subaru forester NA 2.0 in rough roads, muddy roads incline uphills and crossing to rivers, and all i can say superb impressive and satisfied with this SUV
@jaymanrockss the Forester does not come with a limited slip rear diff. The older legacy and outback had a limited slip, as did the older turbo foresters. The forester in this test does not have a limited slip differential.
i believe most of these cars used a 4wd system where their power was converted to the front or the rear via a transfer case. subies AWD uses conventional center and rear difs which allows for the better power transfer
actually the split was more of a 60/40 split on the older subies. the mid 2k's were a 49/51. the later models are 50/50, with the sti being capable of bringing the split from a variable 50/50 to a 10/90. it doesnt matter how long they have been doing the symmetrical split, but that they are doing it and it works.
the quattro is a Haldex based system that also needs the electronic "diff" to get moving, so yes a quattro would have stoped here too (except for the "allroad" models, which are Torsen based)
@dcormann They probably had the button switch on the Rav4, the problem is that it only locks the center differential. As soon as the one of the front and/or rear wheels spins, power only goes to that wheel in particular. The Subaru is the only one with a locking center AND rear diff, making it up no problem with the rear axle slowly locking up.
driven most of these cars, and can tell you in New England the Subie is what i felt the safest in. If i had to explain it, even with all season tires, my Subie feels like it claws the ground. I've already convinced my sister in law to buy an Impreza, my wife will be buying a Forester.... and i'll be trading in my Impreza when i've had enough fun for the WRX.
Actually many of these vehicles have a locking center differential. But what most lack is a limited slip differential in the rear. That's all that test proved. Every one of those systems transferred power to the rear but they set up rollers on the rear as well. Only when a limited slip engaged the other rear wheel would you move forward in that test.
This is not a problem with power as they keep saying. Its with the DIFFERENTIAL. Having an open diff wont put power to that wheel. Need a lsd or locking diff and none of these cars would have a problem.
well cut the crap. so none of those other cars has a mechanism to transfer power to one wheel. The question should be ; how did they get away with that??
+Edward Law my van could do that in front wheel drive only. That ramp that is. You want tough hard core traction? Aftermarket is the only place to get the parts to do that.
Constant acceleration was not applied on all vehicles....the drivers let off on the pedal when it seemed like the other brands AWD was about to kick in....
Here is another thing to consider, when driving in a slippery road, the resistance wont be as much as they're making these cars handle. Obviously the Subaru has the best AWD system but this test doesn't really give real world answers. What are the odds you would get stuck going up a hill at two miles an hour with random patches like the roll bars? There is no momentum in these test to fully simulate what the cars are capable of
That's the vehicle stability system cutting off throttle from the drivers. It's a safety feature in most cars so you don't go spinning out of control. Remember cars these days are drive by wire. It's just sensors now detecting throttle position.
No, the particular Subaru system tested here does not date back to the 2002 Forester. This only applies to the newer Subarus with the VDC (vehicle dynamics control) system which is essentially an electronic supplement to the traditional AWD system in Subaru vehicles. The AWD system is only able to control slip between the front and rear, not side to side as is shown in this test. However, the VDC system will apply the breaks to a slipping wheel(s) and thus send power to the wheel with the most
@SoDaSub That is the beauty of Subaru's system. You really don't need LSD's to make it work. The ABS Systems can do it all. Just modulate brakes on the slipping wheels and power will automatically move to the other side through the simple mechanical diffs. I don't personally like this system myself, I always find it a bit slow to react compared to LSD's at each diff . But it does WORK. And it's simple to execute since almost all cars have braking control now.
In regards to this test, yes, all that matters is that Subaru *currently* uses truly symmetrical AWD. I would like to see the reference to the service manual under "Function Descriptions" where it says that a 4EAT automatic junkbox does anything but 90% FWD until you loose traction, after which it violently "thumps" into 50:50 mode, kicking the back of the car out. New Subarus are nice, but I'm here to warn people that before 2005, they were stone-age and built from cardboard. Just warning...
I just got a Legacy and when driving in heavy rain, the car was a beast, Never did I feel I would ever hydroplane, Now, mind you, I always believe in having good tires, but I was going 70 and never once realized it. Amazing how these cars hold the road, I'm now interested in how well it will do in the snow, I hear they are unbeatable But, the one I wonder about in the study, did they all have the same brand tire. Tires have so much to do with how a car handles.
Legit Test, all performed as expected. Subaru's design is different compared to the rest. quattro and VW 4-motion should have been able to to pass this as well
My only traction issue with my 2003 Forester XS is the awful Yokohoma Geolander tires it came with. Poor traction, lots of noise. Finally had enough and put on Michelin Pilot Exaltos (recently replaced after several years). With those the car had great snow and ice driving and stopping - I never once got stuck or lost control (like I once did with the Geolanders). And the Michelins gave better gas mileage and had far less noise. I picked the Forester because at the time I had early morning train rides into NYC - usually before snow covered roads were cleared. Great choice!
Only the front-wheel drive based Audi models are Haldex, like the A3 and TT. Most of their model range is now longitudinal/Torsen based including the A4. That being said, your main point remains valid. Quattro is mostly just a brand name that applies to all of their all-wheel drive models regardless of whether they're Haldex or Torsen.
I've read that the X model Forester has an open-differential but the XS and XT models have a limited-slip-differential. Would the open-differential act just like the car in this video??
agreed.....the test could be applied regardless of drivetrain (or traction aids).....it does show what the effect of having only one drive wheel with traction is though.....
@arumdevil There's no rear LSD on the current (SH) Forester shown. It succeeded in this video because the traction control component of the VDC was able to brake the spinning left rear wheel thereby giving enough torque to the right rear wheel to push the car up the ramp. The VDC should also be able to achieve the same thing in the scenario you describe with only one front wheel having traction.
@fabulousprofound Tiguan and Q3 use Haldex AWD. There's a video with a Passat with Haldex AWD not able to climb one wheel in my videos. The Outlander was not included because only so many vehicles were included in the test.
All wheel drive. Just like real 4 wheel drive. Really means actual 2 wheel drive. One front one rear wheel driving. And with typical open differentials the power goes to the path of least resistance. Only a limited slip or locking differential can overcome such a limited traction situation. A talented driver applying slight break pressure to help limit wheel spin can help a low traction situation even with so called 4 wheel drive
That's a common misunderstanding. There's a lot of advertising hype and widespread ingnorance about the variations in 4WD/AWD systems. There's a LOT of different systems out there with various technologies at every price range. Any AWD will get up a muddy/snowy hill far better than the same vehicle with 2WD. The rest of the differences determine if the vehicle is fun, stabile, or show up when the going gets tough.
Many of these AWD systems are really just brake based traction control systems without the use of mechanical limited slips. Braking power is applied to the spinning wheel, forcing the power to move through the open differential to the wheel with grips. The problem is this also "stops" the car and causes one wheel to have to fight the other 3 spinning wheels. The BMW x-drive system would have failed here too, while the Quattro would have not. An STI or Evo would have smoked it.
There is one thing that the Subaru doesn't do that you can do with some of the others, the Rogue for sure. That is an all wheel drive lock... similar to locking the differentials so all the wheels will have power. That, as well as turning off the traction control would likely have allowed the Rogue to make it up the ramp. At least until the transmission overheated or just decided to fall apart. My only real complaint about the Forester.
However the CVT doesn't. Even the X-Mode only locks up 25% harder (I wish my dealer would have tried upselling me just a little bit as I didn't think about x-mode at the time and just bought a premium instead of the limited I wish I'd have bought).
@80spodcastchannel The Subaru works even more seamlessly since you don't have to press a button to make it go. As to the tires who cares and 50K is about average on tires for any car. BTW I am not bashing the Honda, they make great cars, and in most situations it is enough. Just not as strong, or good at the extremes.
@Kittamaru i am not sure there was "pumping" witnessed here, but instead it was the traction control systems pulling back power in fruitless effort to limit wheelspin.
Subaru AWD system is the best because it is a permanent and symmetrical all wheel drive system with a limited slip central differential and a limited slip rear differential. Tne other selected cars do not have this technology on board. I think that Audi four wheel drive system can pass the test as well.
The centre diff doesn't work they've only got 4kg of torque which is not enough to pull you out of your bed, it's like this because it's not strong enough to lock up, all the running gear on the car is toy😂
Exacly. I bought a Forester before watching this video, and I was considering CR-V and RAV4 because they are in a similar price range, unlike Audi, BMW, etc.
Symmetrical AWD is nice, but don't let the video fool you: Subaru has only been making their AWD system truly "symmetrical" for a few years - anything older than mid-2000s with an automatic and you get the exact same system that the other vehicles in this video had - a very front-biased system with a 90:10 torque split.
The only two Subaru AWD systems that stand a chance against Quattro are the DCCD used in the WRX STI and the VTD. That's probably why. Closest comparison they ever did was with the VW 4MOTION...
This is one of two videos (or maybe just the original which I haven't seen for a while) that demonstrates how Subaru's technology is superior to that of much of the rest of the competitors AWD systems. Makes me proud to own my Subie! =)
Subaru isn't superior to any other brand, just takes an intelligent driver to overcome the nannies of the vehicle and AWD systems are in one form or another a nanny. Some vehicles require so much wheel spin before the system fully engages which isn't shown here as the driver kept letting off the accelerator every time the vehicle started to move forward. These systems have a hydro set of clutches that will engaged more and more as the wheels with no traction keep spinning.
Congratulations. You have made the funniest post that will every be found on this thread, and funniest post currently on any Subaru RU-vid video. Thanks for the LoLs.
@white5spdef The Foresters rear diff is open. Currently, only the STI doesn't have an open rear diff. If the test were performed on the front wheels, the Forester would have completed the test even quicker.
I do not think that year Forester has LSD. I think LSD was replaced with all-wheel traction control beginning about 09. The vehicles test were in the same size class and cost. Some of the other vehicles suggested cost much more and are not a compact SUV.
@zblank0 that would be interesting, but as someone pointed out, the cheapest acura with sh-awd would be the RDX, and it's in a different price class... so unfair competition in this segment.
@kens97sto171 Dude....that's the point, these control functions are set ARTIFICIALLY low, as to keep the "soccer moms" from treading outside the tractional capability of these vehicles. they are at best SOFT GROUND/SNOW COVERED ROADWAY/LOOSE GRAVEL, level of awd. they are NOT a dedicated, rough road 4WD with locked diffs and clutchpacks with extra serious wheel to wheel locking potential. in fact, I can drive mine 2005 CRV, or my wife's 2006 CRV, and have the DSC light flash constantly.
I don't know where you got that information, but the Nissan webpage lists the 2013 Rogue AWD at 22/26mpg. The 2013 Forester is listed at 21/27mpg. So, in reality you're looking at 1mpg WORSE with the Rogue. I can only assume you're taking into account driving habits to get 30 mpg and that same theory can be applied to both vehicles. Personally, I will take the less expensive, more capable, better hwy fuel economy, and arguably safer option... and go with the Forester.
@ForumBoosters The GC is another category up from these. These are classed as "soft-roaders" i think. I have a GC and have no doubt it could pass this, but it's not in the same class as a forester
@BentlyboYY You are correct the CRV is very good in snow as any other 4WD but this test is more to simulate ice since the rollers spin freely. Your CRV would be a different car. I tested every 4WD, AWD and the best one we decided on was the 2011 Subaru Forester. Its just a great all around car.
My 2000 Subaru Outback eats my ice and snow covered, and gravel driveway, where a 2013 Chevy 4WD (Dont remember exact model) got stuck going through the nice part, while the Outback pulled through the bad part with 10" runs through the drive way and a big chunk of asphalt in the center no problem. When my sister ran it into a tree after sliding out of control and hit the front against the tree at 15-20 mph, all we needed to do was replace a fender, bumper cover, headlight, and fog light.
@zblank0 yeah i know but the cost makes a difference in how complex the system is... if you want to see the sh-awd in action, do a search here for an RDX doing a steep grade split-traction hill test... it's able to direct 100% power to a single wheel that has traction with its differential setup.
I think you technically just need a center and rear limited slip differential to get this result. The problem is all these other cars only have part time AWD systems or no rear LSD.
My dads truck has a "symmetrical" drive train but it would still fail this test due to the open diffs. Subaru needs to explain the side to side transfer of power, not just the front to rear for this to be a good test and video. Of course this is why I have a jeep with lockers.
EVO is better than the Subaru in terms of electronic AWD. Anyone would say that added assist was better. But which one is more rewarding as a driver experience? The Subaru requires your full attention.
I loved my old Subaru and would buy another one, but this is more about how good the traction/stability control system is, not the 4wd system itself. I guarantee that an original X5 or ML would make it up, even with their 3 open diffs.
@dyzio22 ok fair play. I have quite an old JDM subaru legacy which has LSD rear and centre, I must admit I'm not up to speed on the lastest models but I'm pretty sure most of them have LSDs at the rear as well as centre, but maybe it's different in US market.
i know that subaru has the best AWD system but isn't this a test of how well the diff does at these circumstances? cause once an open diff is on a loose ground, it will not stop spinning the free wheel.
I think the problem in all these that failed is there is no LSD at the back. The subarus have LSD at the centre and at the back whereas most 'AWD' vehicles only have it in the centre, if at all. without LSD or locking diffs even a AWD/4WD vehicle will eventually not be able to make the best use of available traction. If this test was done on one front wheel, however, the subaru would have done just as badly as they don't have a LSD at the front. Don't get me wrong, I drive a subaru and they..
The new Subaru Justy does not have selectable 4WD via a viscous coupling unlike the old model. Can´t understand why Subaru would get rid of such a fine unique selling point :(
Showing trucks with LSDs would be suitable for a different test. These vehicles are direct competitors and all advertise their AWD systems. This test, and the Subaru, is a great example of an "as advertised" AWD system. The average buyer wouldn't know any different until their vehicle was in a comprimised situation.
All Subarus made since 1997 have been AWD. Their transmissions house the front differential, gears and transfer case. No adapters. Subaru doesn't build a RWD platform (except BRZ)
can you guys do this test for other SUVs? i mean take 4runner, outlander, pathfinder/ xterra, explorer, traverse, cherokee, durango, x5, Q7,RX350, hummer, touareg, with their off road options and any other SUV that claims to have fulltime 4WD and do this test and one for front wheel off roller. Or let me have that ramp for few weeks :)
@Dr4x4guy It's not cheaper. almost every car made, even a Hyundai Accent has automated brake assist, and control. That's all that is required to move the power around in an open diff AWD system. Your right about being stronger though. But most Subaru or other AWD car people are not going truly off road, just mud, gravel, snow. If I wanted and automatic system myself with real strength. I take a Jeep ZJ, WJ with Quadra Drive. Or Selec Trac with lockers.
That's actually a good strategy. Own two companies, make them appear to be duking it out with each other, force consumers to pick sides, then laugh all the way to the bank.
i have an opinion. i think Subaru owners are really to confident about their cars. based on wreckage count. every month there is a handful of Subaru in salvage yard monthly intake. more than half the lift on newly wrecks are Subaru. from foresters to legacy.
