I have a 2010 Forester and I've had excatly the same issues with wheel studs as presented in Ivan's video. I had my car 'serviced' at a local main dealer for about 7 years from new. In 2017, all of the wheel studs started going bad. Snapping for no apparent reason, warping etc. It turns out, from reading the Subaru forums online, that this is a common issue with wheel studs from vehicles around this time, they are notoriuos for breaking. I do all my own servicing now and the first thing I started with was to replace all the wheel studs one hub at a time. I used Dorman, mainly because that's all I could find!! So far they have held up well. The fronts are tricky as the bolts will only come out in one place and you have to bend the brake dust cover very slightly to get the required clearance. I avoid using air tools - wheel nuts hate them. A really good tip is to hand tighten the wheel nuts first with a 19mm socket. Then tighten, using star pattern of course, using the socket on a socket wrench, snugged right up. I then torque the nuts to 74ft lbs, all the time with wheels off the ground. I have found doing this really helps avoid damaging threads. Btw, there is no danger with torquing these wheels to 74ft lbs - it only seems low because people are used to way over torquing their wheels ususlly!!! I have gone over 10,000 miles including fast freeway and never had a single issue with wheel blots / nuts loosening, so have confidence!! 2023 Edit - the wheel studs & bolts are still holding just fine 6 years on. I never use any lube at all and it is best to avoid to stop the studs stretching, I make sure that I tell the techs at any garage I use to use hand torque only, no air tools, and they all seem happy to do that.
Forgot to mention: have never lost a single wheel nut by tightening with the car supplied spanner in 50 years. This is a very relevant video Ivan, thanks for uploading !
Hahaha! I just got tires for my nephew's car two days ago. This is why I always bring the wheels in "loose rim", already removed from the car. I take the center cap out and clean the wheels up really good so they can use "stick on" wheel weights on the inside where they can't be seen. If you bring them the entire vehicle, you are just asking for trouble IMO.
I agree 110 percent. I watched a so-called mechanic at a local garage in NE Pa pry off one of my center caps from the front of the wheel with a pocket screwdriver instead of knocking it out the back with the handle of a screwdriver. It marred up a mint condition wheel. I also had another garage take a brand new in the box 17 inch chrome Dakota RT wheel and pound on used rusty lead wheel weights on the outside of the new chrome wheel.
I see this a lot on big rigs, truck comes fresh from the tyre shop and you can immediately tell they overtorqued the lug nuts, too much thread sticking out the end. Worst one I saw they'd stretched all the studs on the first and second axle, the third had 4 studs that needed to be replaced.
Ended up here because I was driving my 2000 Outback and felt a wobble in the steering wheel. Heard a whine like a wheel bearing as I was going around right hand curves. Then started hearing a slight grinding when braking at very slow speeds. All this was within 10 miles. Get home and check the right front, where the noise was, and see a broken stud. Grab the lug wrench to tighten the others and EASILY break off two more studs? WTF? Grabbed 5 studs and nuts at the auto parts store and back on the road. No one has done anything to this wheel, in terms of removing the wheel, in over a year. ???
@@BobMobber If you see loose lug nuts, you should jack up the car to take the weight off of the tire before tightening the nuts. May have prevented them from breaking.
Yes sir. Your content taught me how to replace my wheel studs. Just finding this video. Now that I've had to replace 7 so far, front and back, the other side of the forester is ripping wheel studs. Same issue here.
For the first time in my life I took my car (Subaru) over to my tire shop to have new tires mounted. I always (until this stupid decision) rotate my own tires and only take the rims for new rubber. So, new tires mounted and I take the car home to check the lug nut torque. They where so damn tight I could not get them loose with a pipe. After the second visit they ended up replacing all the studs and lug nuts with Subaru parts from the local Subaru dealership. I refused crap like Dorman because it did not come in the shop with that garbage........ I went back in the shop and personally watched them torque to the proper spec. They had to have used a LOT OF AIR and the wrong torque stick. I snagged an old stud and attempted to measure thread pitch. It was stretched to the moon. I also noticed that they had never seaze on the old studs. You should not use lubricant on a dry torque application. You end up over torquing by massive amounts because the lubricant gives a false reading. I never had problems in many miles of rotating these wheels because I rotate on every oil change. They must have had a gorilla screw that up before you got your hands on it. PS Machine Tool background with many years experience and not a keyboard wrench twister. I also wanted to say I really enjoy the videos very much!
Element45 Agreed, if the lubrication theory is correct, all 5 holes on the rim had oil in them, therefore all 5 were over torqued, but only 3 broke. Sad to see another half repair.
In the past worked on a Corolla. Upon taking off the wheels I snapped 16 studs clean of by using handtools (and no airtools). The owner had greased the studs with a special grease they use on boats and vessels below the waterline. This stuff gets rockhard by the heatcycles (braking). Not much fun at all.Wheelnuts and there studs must have NO grease or oil on there treads. This stuff can harden and glue a nut to its stud and than things like in the video happen.For the record I am a car mechanic for more than 30 years.
You all missed one obvious possibility. The nuts are capped, if the studs protrude through the threaded area of the nut, then jam just a tiny bit against the cap, the damaged threads on the end gall after the nut is loosened a few turns causing the seizure. I had this happen on my dodge caravan on all 5 studs... only they didn't break, they stripped in place and made it impossible to remove the loose wheel without grinding off all the nuts. Thanks SEARS tire shop!
Glad you posted this... I have had studs break over the years for no apparent reason... and since I've done all my own work since the 60's no ham fisted hack has touched my vehicles.. .. I think I had more problems with rusted studs breaking in the "old days" (seems like they rusted/froze up more) but the few I have had lately did seem to have no explanation at all.. just snap.. never really bothered to investigate.. it's a broken wheel stud ! *shrug happens* just nice to know it's not something I'm doing because I lost "touch" by getting old ..
Ivan, you have the answer - obviously grease was used (I would say NOT recommended in the Subaru's maintenance books.) I just read that using lube on wheel nuts can change the torque value up to 40%! Using that figure, if you set your torque wrench to 80ftlbs, when the wrench "clicks" the actual torque is 112 Ft Lbs! BIG difference. It would be interesting to check where the tires were changed to see if they did, in fact, used grease. If so, they would have to reduce the torque wrench setting to 48 ft lbs to get an effective torque of 80 ft. lbs. My "book" (Haynes) for my 2007 buick lacrosse, 3.6ltr, says to install the spark plugs DRY, then torque them to the specified rating. All makes sense, doesn't it. Another good video, Ivan, many thanks.
Giving Subaru the benefit of the doubt, it could've just been a ham-fisted rookie at the local chain tire store. Probably had the pressure cranked to 135 psi, and just hogged the lugs on. Did 3 nuts before the "whoops" was realized ... I own a tire machine and balancer thanks to Town Fair Tire. Back in '02, I bought 4 new wheels , tires, and lug nuts from them. They stripped out a couple studs, butchered the brand new nuts, scratched my new rim, and the idiot drove my '72 El Camino out squealing the power steering the whole way out, and laughing about it right in front of me! I got a little mad that day, some naughty words were uttered at high volume, and I burned 500 miles off ONE of my brand new tires while leaving .... - that was the last time I had anyone put tires on for me. Bought the machines in '05 and never looked back! Must be that time of year for busted hardware. I just had a bolt bust off inside the chassis of a '04 Highlander, for a driveshaft carrier bearing. Had to replace the whole driveshaft, since none of my parts stores had u-joints for this assembly! (considered non-repairable by Toyota - owner was quoted $1,700 for the assembly replacement!!) I'm sure a driveline shop could've matched something up, but I wasn't driving 40 miles in MA traffic to do that. Just ordered up a new driveshaft over the net, and a week later spent 3 hours installing it, thanks to that damn bolt. :)
wow sounds like Town Fair Tire just doesn't give a damn. Terrible. As far as driveshafts for AWD vehicles, it seems that they are made to last maybe 200k miles and then you are supposed to throw the car away lol! I really do despise "non-serviceable" items...just cheap on the manufacturer's part. And even if you do figure out a way to tear it apart and replace the bearing, putting it back together can be a royal PITA...especially sealing up a CV joint pressed-on cup. Ask me how I know haha
In the 40 years I've worked on vehicles- I've always lightly greased lug bolt THREADS before running down nuts. I would never lubricate the wheel's lug bolt hole- where the friction of the nut's chamfer is what holds it tight. Someone just doused too much aerosol lubricant, then ugga-chuggaed them till "tight". You nailed it.
After reading some of these comments, I'm a tire technician and this happens maybe twice a year. We are required to use a torque stick and torque wrench. And use a torque chart to find out the exact torque spec. And we are required to use anti seize (copper) on the studs . And that the do a figure 8 to make sure the lugnuts seated properly and then check the torque again. I seen shit work myself and it so easy to avoid claims if you follow policy. I would see what the shop torqued them at. Because overtorqued lugnuts are aways bad.
Before I retired, I worked for Ingersoll-Rand and we built fastener torqueing machines and if a fastener requires a certain torque specification you never want to lube it prior to tightening. ALWAYS DRY.
well I know this differs. Head bolts require lube. Some specialty fasteners require lithium, Moly, And other requirements. Lug nuts I sometimes lube slightly. but only the threads and again lightly never the tapered area. Thats just me
I agree that some specialty applications require lube. But, my experience is in production applications and there may be oil on, say, a head bolt, from its manufacturing process, but in production lube is not considered. It becomes to difficult to maintain s.p.c. torque, when you are putting out, say 1,500 engines per 8 hour shift.
ok I can agree with that Pete. I suppose It is also true that specialty fasteners may recommend their own torque values and may not coincide with there own OEM numbers. Ive seen some use moly grease. on the threads and using moly on a application that says dry thread would or may in affect cause over-torquing by lessening thread friction and over clamping area as well as cause bolt stretch. Good Point! We do need to be sure we know what we are turning in certain applications. Thanks
I also had 2 studs damaged by DT during wheel rotation. One was cross threaded and other was snapped off. Although they gave me a coupon I DIY'd to see what happened. I suspect sloppy work using an air impact to start/run nuts. They say they torque manually, but if torque spec is exceeded w/ impact the torque wrench will click that nut is good (not capable of discerning over-torque). A few years back China sent huge amoiunts of subspec bolts to the oil/gas industry and there were significant problems. Basically the yield strength and toughness were not acceptable. I found a ball joint lifter to be a good way to press out old stud to avoid hammering on wheel hub rim.
Just me... but I would have changed them all. Something (that you are not aware of) went wrong. I lost a wheel on the highway on my 96 Buick Roadmaster wagon due to a tire shop over-torqueing the lug nuts and stretching the studs to the point they sheared off level with the brake drum. A mechanic shop I have dealt with for years used a torque wrench to determine the remaining three wheels' nuts were torqued to more than 200 FT-LBS. Supposed to be 95 FT-LBS. After ALL wheel studs were replaced, I went to the tire shop, and (predictably) the manager got hostile and said they didn't do it.
Its all about laziness and not taking the extra 1 minute to use a torque wrench instead of a air impact gun. Thats why I just remove and install my own wheels so as not to have this problem.
Usually broken studs like that only happens with old rusty studs, but those look like they might have been replaced recently. Might just be bad batch of Chinesium studs. Over-torquing usually just pulls the threads out in the section where the overtorquing happens and strips the stud or the nut depending on which is softer and would be hard to remove from the start, like a rusted bolt. Don't know if you want to go to the trouble but you can cut the nuts apart with a cutoff tool or die grinder with a cutoff wheel and knock the stud out and check the threads.
The last 2 buhubarus i had with this similar problem,the customer just had tires put on them. I think the tire guy just impacted the lug nuts on. And when it was my turn to remove the wheel, snap! Use a torque wrench guys.
we were having problems with stripped jeep wheel nuts, and one of our techs said to check for thread debris on the wheel studs and nuts. sure enough, small pieces of metal from the threads were found. after that, we cleaned out the threads of both the nuts and studs by blowing them out with air. after we used this precedure several times, we had rarely any problems with stripped wheel studs and or nuts.
I've ran into this a few times. I did a safety inspection a few months ago and when i removed the LF wheel it was difficult to remove. I told shop owner it would break and he paid for a stud removal and replace. The car came back a few days later to have brakes done for inspection and two of the studs on the same wheel broke. They said I was to blame when I put the lugs back on, but everything was hand started and torqued properly. Im glad i'm not the only one!
First of all, thanks for the video. This will help me tremendously with the project I'm about to tackle. Preparing to rotate the tires on my wife's relatively new 2019 Forester and so far I have come across at least one lug nut that won't come off. The car only has 6k miles, so I am assuming that this is the first rotation since new. Four of the five on the left-rear come loose easily but the fifth only turns with a lot of force with a breaker bar. I didn't have any extra lug studs yesterday when I started the process, so went down to Advance Auto and got a few Dorman studs for replacement. My next step is to keep turning the lug nut until it finally comes off or breaks the stud in the process. Wish me luck. I've discovered that the acorn shaped lug nuts are easily put on at a slight angle and if you force them with an impact wrench, they are going to cross-thread without even knowing it. I am just guessing that is what happened in this video. Anyone else have this issue?
Hey Ivan,It’s a pretty common issue for any stud to gall when removing them. It’s worse when there is some corrosion from road salt. When you remove the lug nuts go slow so the nuts don’t gall on the threads and apply anti-seeze paste to all threads. I have done this for 25 years. Once you work on the car on a regular basis you won’t have that happen because you will keep the threads coated when they look dry. Same thing goes for any suspension work. Especially where you live.
Strange.... Had Subarus for past 30 years. Never had that problem. Still have 2 old Outbacks (2003,2004) on the road and never had stud issues. My vote is someone over-torqued them with a impact wrench while installing new tires. This stretched the stud.
Ivan, I had the same issue on a Ford Taurus where one stud broke off and another the bolt was beginning to turn and then it became harder and harder to turn. I believe it was caused by over-torque.
Since tires were just installed I'd say someone used an airgun and over tightened the nuts until they stud started to stretch and fracture. Lube wouldn't cause it to happen on its own, its the person tightening them. Since the 70's I've always used a dab of NeverSiez on the wheel studs of my own vehicles and never had an issue, they always came off without a problem. Working in repair shops and for myself for over forty years I've replaced probably hundreds of studs and nuts destroyed by tire shops.
I had some the same problem, I used a 1/2 inch wheel bearing and 2 (1/2) lock washers to elevate the wheel bearing off the hub to spin the wheel stem into a pressed position (created a make shift wheel bearing installer) with a 17 metric nut not the lug nut, because I need a open nut. Good luck!
YES DORMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woo Hoo !!!!!!!!!!! I Always torque the lug nuts. Never broke any in my 45 years doing it without torquing but since aluminum rims started I always now be sure of the tighten carefully. Old steel rims were not as critical. Newer impacts have huge torque numbers. Have had Subarus for 20 years and never ever had a stud issue. Bolt stretched.
You are correct, I have seen this before ... rookie tire techs lubing up everything instead of just a little never sneeze on the threads only. When they try to torque it the lube makes the nut keep turning till it breaks.
Seen this before from a chain shop. Tightening customers wheels with a 3/4" air impact. Broke multiple studs off multiple wheels on a Nissan Frontier. Blaming the "age of the vehicle". (Good) Mechanics are Detectives of Common Sense!
second thought - anyone who has worked in the chemical industry will know it both the studs and nuts have over a certain percetage of stainless steel they will "dry weld" if not lubricated. ave showed this in one of his videos and i learned my lesson real quick working on liquid nitrogen lines and fittings. that stud did have a silvery tint not black or yellow
Over a certain percentage of stainless steel? Stainless steels are their own alloys. There isn't something like 50% steel / 50% stainless steel. And wheel studs or bolts always have to be grade 8, or 10.9 for metric. So do bolts that fasten doors, seats, and seat belts. These are not considerations, they are the law. You wouldn't want them to be stainless. Typical stainless yield strengths lie somewhere between grades 5 and 8, usually more towards grade 5 (they aren't that hard, despite work hardening from cutting). Metric bolts do not use the yellow chromate coating to signify their grade, like you typically see on inch-sized grade 8 bolts, so that is why they are just regular silver-colored.
Just imagine the newbie teenager tech at the tire store with a 1/2" drive airgun in his hands. No experience, minimal training, no feel for the tools or work at hand, and rushing on top of it all. Stuff like that is bound to happen from time to time. Nice job Ivan. Thanks!
Ivan: You are about an hour's drive (west) on PA-45 from me. Unfortunately, we may be cleaning up the work of the same tire franchise. I have replaced quite a few lug studs, on many different makes, which were found to have the nut gall'd-fast to the stud. In each case I found the common denominator to be the same tire franchise. According to one of the tool truck vendors, who services that shop, he thinks that several of the "technicians" have no idea why those 1/2" drive "extensions" are different colors.
if you use lubrication on threads you are actually making a wet torque as opposed to a dry torque. The lubrication can take up some of the space in between the threads and actually cause the bolt to stretch when torqued to the original dry spec.
Lisle has a wheel stud tool to replace studs easily. It's a cone shaped bearing tool. Those impact tools strip threads. To torque aluminum bolts, you need a special torque tool.
I'm running into this right now. Both sides damaged by cross--threading AND by two different shops doing the removal of the tires. I guess I'll be trying to repair on my own cuz I can't afford having a shop do it. Thanks for the great repair video! It's definitely a problem but I don't know who's to blame. Over torquing would be my guess but why aren't the studs made better???
I've read in Brake and Wheel magazine I believe it was, That it IS NOT recommended to lube wheel studs. Because even though they are torqued (and especially if they're hammered on with a gun) they will still travel further because of the lube. WD40 or whatever. So what I do now (if they're rusted) I just brake clean them, small wire brush, and then brake clean them again. That's what I do now, Ivan. However, like you said, this sounds like a Subaru problem. Another recall ?
Nut wheel forms a seal with the wheel protecting thread of stud. If you lubricate stud or seating of nut and wheel all the applied torque goes onto tensioning the stud. So you over tension stud. Just stick with clean and dry and the correct torque.
I had exactly the same thing happen while removing lug nuts manually when changing from summer to winter wheels. I recalled afterwards that I'd taken the Forester in for a flat repair a few months prior. I asked the guy how tight he tightened the nuts and the reply was "100 ft-lbs, just like everything else". So much for torque specs and professionalism. I highly doubt he checked the torque at all... probably just slammed them on with the impact gun as fast as possible.
I've been changing the wheels twice a year on my '16 Crosstrek for the last 5 years. I've never used an impact and never snapped a stud. If it was cheap/soft metal then, at the very least, one of the other 15 studs would have broken too. But for some reason they didn't. It's very clear that somebody over torqued the nuts on that one wheel. Likely when changing a flat tire.
2017 Forester still has stud snapping and thread damage issues. Had one snap today, and I generally torque them down to 100ft lbs. The manual says 89ft lbs, but after I had some back off on the highway and the feeling of having a wobble at 80mph, I'm not taking any chances.
That's crazy. I'm sure the wheel bearings will wear out fast enough and then you can replace the hub with a high quality aftermarket unit with stronger studs 🙂
There a lot of ways to go wrong putting lug nuts ON, but not many wrong ways to take them OFF. Had to be the tire shop. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ; >}
Had the same thing happen to my 2015 Forester after my wife had roadside assistance for a flat tire. Hearing you say the torque spec is only 75 lb-ft, I suspect the roadside repair guy over torqued them. All previous tire rotations were done by dealer.
had this problem on Subaru's for years. all different models, i always put it down to over tightening and causing the thread to catch. as you said the torque spec is quite low.
happened to me not on a Subaru but a honda crv . speaking my dad about it (ships engineer for 40 years ) he said it happened from the stud being over torqued and the lug nut bottoming out on the stud. stretching the threads on the stud and nut from the end of the stud and crown of the nut .thats why you can undo it a little until the threads on the lug nut reach the stretched part of the stud and lock on
I snapped a couple on my honda fit with a lug wrench. Not sure if the threads got screwed up previously or what. I had just put them on by hand as well a couple days before. One difference is mine has 190,000 miles and it took some gravel road beating. Unfortunately on the honda fit you HAVE to pull the whole hub assembly if you snap a stud. I had to replace the hub and bearing. Good times.
2015 Subaru Forrister, I have been fighting with Meineke over there habitual stripping of my wheel studs to the point they refuse to rotate my wheels. They want to charge me $30 per stud now. They put the Acorn nut in the inpact gun and then ram it down-- no torqe wrench. They tell me Subaru's have soft metal threads. Funny thing just like you said, they unscrew several turns and then jam up and snap towards the end. 2022 and nothing has changed. I just ordered a bag of Dorman studs and Acorn nuts and am going to do it myself at age 76. My neighbor suggest racing studs at $48 per wheel!
I have only read a few comments and it seems that the consensus is that the studs stretched due to excessive torque and the consequent heat. Is it possible that, simultaneous to the over torque, the end of the stud also contacted the underside of the dome cap on the nut - thereby contributing to the stretch ~and~ exerting unintended force on the studs? Even if the stud end didn’t make direct contact with the inner cap, excess lubricant could have been trapped and exerted unwanted force due to the build up of pressure. Are the factory studs and nuts the same quality as the Dorman replacements?? If so, then the overheated, gorilla-torqued, reinstallation probably stretched both parts together at the same time. The greatest distortion on the stud likely happened closer to the heat source at the mated threads. So, the furthest threads remained within specific pitch. Then, unscrewing the now mismatched nut threads caused a bind. Also, consider that the studs could have lost temper when overheated. And... snap?! I appreciate your videos. Thanks.
Back when I was a teenager I was at my dad's shop rotating my car tires. I grabbed an air impact gun and went to town. My dad came running over and grabbed the impact from my hand saying I was about to snap off all the bolts. He gave me this older half worn out impact that he uses for wheel studs. The one I had used was the "good impact" and very strong. I did not know any better until he taught me the difference.
Overtorqued studs can sheer off the next time you remove the wheels, especially if you're not using an impact wrench to remove them. They can be overtorqued by using full strength impact wrench, use of anti-seize compound, and, though not as common, when using a torque wrench if the device is out of calibration. If you insist on using anti-seize, lower your torque setting by under 20% of rated spec.
I see thread galling with cheap stainless steel screws, and usually antiseize lubricant helps. When threads lock up they probably were stretched, from over torque. But I've always used antiseize on my lugnuts.
My wife has a 2011 Subaru. I change from summer to winter tires every year. A few years ago, I had that happen to me. I didn't think anything of it until it happened to me again this year. No one has taken a wheel of this car but me. When I called, the dealer told me they had plenty in stock so I suggest it happens more often than one would suspect.
I work in the service department at a Subaru dealership- this is 100% cross threaded lug nuts. they go on, but lock up and snap the stud on the way back off. make sure you thread your lugs at least 4+ turns. I do this, I've never had a broken stud return on my tech number
I had Toyota studs (12x1.5mm not 1.25mm like Subaru are) snap the same way on couple of cars. Basically once it was because of 200pound gorilla at the tyre shop rattling them too tight, other time they used anti-sieze and over torqued them (even though the torque was set "correctly"). Both cases it started to move and then it jammed after about 3/4 of a turn. Since then I watch the tyre people very closely for: 1) using proper torque limiting adapter if they rattle the nuts on; 2) torque them properly (not just checking it that the torque wrench clicks); 3) not using any lube (it is torqued dry from factory).
Since 3 of 5 broke and 2 broke after the second time loosening them while working on the one 3rd stuck one, I would have replaced all 5 studs with the USA studs to match them up and replace all 5 nuts. I'd have also cleaned out the lug holes from oil on that wheel. Then told the customer what you think occurred. Likely, a tire guy or the last one to take off that wheel used a Big Nasty air gun and paid no attention to Subaru torque limits. Strange to see this but could have been due to those acorn lug nuts, contamination, plus the extra beans in the torque specs.
I'm 90% sure it's the lube, I've seen some tests on how lube can impact the clamping force on correctly torqued fasteners, and in some cases it can almost double the clamping force vs dry (or halve it for thicker lubricants). It's not unrealistic to imagine it stretching the stud into the lug until it goes all the way in and mushrooms against the inside of the lug or messes the threads up even when the correct torque is applied.
ARP changed its lube for this same reason. Their older moly-lube was too slippery and caused over-torqueing and damage to engine blocks, cylinder heads etc. They added a grit to their lube to increase friction and get more accurate torque readings and specs.
Yes, this happened to me with a nissan skyline. new tyres installed BY THE TYRE PLACE and 2 months later in the forest i had a flat tyre. had to break 3 studs off to change the wheel. the nuts had been overtightened and the chrome plating had been stripped and galled the threads. that was the very last time a tyre place had torqued up my wheels, they do the nuts hand tight and i finish the job with the spanner in the car toolkit before it gets back out the shop. very scary lesson learnt.
Level one of our apprenticeship was told mulptiple times never to use anything on wheel studs. The odd time I use fluid film. But I also use torque sticks on a lower powered impact gun to run my wheels up.
I found this video after a search since the same happened to me today getting new tyres on my 2011 Legacy (Liberty in Australia). I've had this car since new and the Tyre place mentioned one of the studs sheared off and they are getting more and more Subaru's exhibiting the same issue. Weird thing is the same tyre dealership performs all my maintenance (rotations etc) and they are the ones torquing the nuts. Maybe its just older Subaru's starting to show these signs ..?? Thanks for the upload.
I've found that a lot of dome style nuts suffer the same and my thought is that when the nut engages the taper on the rim it pinches a smidge so the next time they are removed they mar the stud a little pulling tiny fibers of metal with them...Do this a few times dry with a rattle gun and the fibers cold weld the nut to the stud...I use a tiny smear of molly grease and I mean tiny.
There are tire places that constantly over-torque lug nuts. I have a Crown Vic that I put on new studs and lug nuts torqued to specs, and brought the car to have new tires installed. (Thanks for the great prices to Tire Rack.) When I picked up my car, they said to retorque the nuts in about 50 miles. Two days later, I found I was unable to remove the lug nuts. They were torqued to 120 Ft-lbs on aluminium wheels AND CROSS_THREADED. The studs and nuts were U.S. made by an American company. The tire place wanted to go to a parts house to get DORMAN studs and nuts. I told them no, they will replace what I had put on with EXACT parts at their costs, and I wanted my car today. I ended up with a rental car at their cost for a week to get my car fixed.
WTF? 120 ft lbs is NOTHING. Taking them off I would never notice so little an overtorque. I've had some over 200 ft lbs and yes some of them sheared off.
I don't understand why you didn't use some brake clean to spray off the lube on the wheel lug surfaces before torquing down the new lugs/nuts. After all, you surmised that that may have contributed to over-torquing that lead to the failure. Also, you applied Fluid Film to the new lugs when you installed them. Did you spray them with brake clean before installing the wheel to avoid this problem?
We have a 2011 and something happened. I went and bought all new studs and lug nuts and replaced them all. It seems if you use an impact gun with them it causes problems. I have just been using breaker bar and socket to loosen and torque wrench set to 75lbs to put back on and that seems to be working so far.
I have seen in the past a loose lug nut will stretch the threads and shear off wheel studs and hog out the stud holes,also incorrect crown on the lug nut can damage the wheel.
I use nickle anti-seize on all alloy and steel wheel install, around the hub and ALL the studs. I KNOW, your not supposed to! but i have been taught this way many years ago and have installed thousands of wheels and never had loose wheels or broken studs. I run lug nuts on with impact, but just to snug them and the torque using torque wrench. Would like to here some feedback on this, weather you use this way or not. Thanks Ivan for your videos.
Remember a few years ago when practically every fastener on the engine had a lock washer? Well, engineers are figuring out that what keeps a nut or bolt in place is clamping force. Lock washers are useless. If the service manual says dry then install dry unless you are smart enough to know the lubricated torque which will be different. Sometimes, for example, sparkplugs, they provide both torques.
Lorrin Barth , thanks for the reply, and yes I agree with the lock washer being useless. I got away from automotive for a bit and worked on heavy equip. and there I learned that lockwashers wasn't needed plus would get you in trouble via using them when they brake and now there's a gap lol, and also learned the importance of dry and wet torque. As far as figuring out torque dry or otherwise, I believe identifix has a good conversion. I'd just have to figure out where I seen it. Thanks again for the info. Have a great evening!
I've been doing the same thing with nickel anti-seize for 25 years with no problems. I've also seen people take a no. 2 pencil and rub it on the wheel studs.
Ive had a lot these issues with my cars. I've caught the tire store techs putting the lug nut into the socket and using the impact gun to put it on the stud.
Seems to happen constantly on my Hyundai. I keep studs and lug nuts in my tool box for it. I am a Hyundai Elantra Stud changing machine! I can pop a new stud in, in about 2 minutes! The bad part is the replacement nuts have to be gotten from the dealer @ $5 a piece (dorman make them to but they are junk). They have a plastic ring in them that holds on the hub cap. It must be common because the dealer has a big giant box of them! I don't think it to much torque, be cause I always torque mine to spec.
Weird. I've seen places put gobs of antiseize on, so that's definitely a factor. When you're torquing bolts on an engine you are supposed to use a high pressure lube to get a more accurate torque in case the fastener drags on the surface of the head or whatever, I have a tube from arp. Maybe wheels are supposed to have that resistance as part of the "lock"?
I am old enough to remember when disc brakes came out, I was working on wiring the equipment up in a new building for the machine shop of an auto parts store. Up the street was the largest tire store in the 30,000+ area. As soon as we got started we were told to get the lathe that they used to true up brake discs going because the people putting on tires were using air guns to put the tires on and they had no torque settings on them and they were tightening them up without going in a crisscross pattern. This went on every day for the whole time I was there, probably a month total.
I know this is a little late but I just did this today with my Subaru. I used a tourque stick on my impact to tighten them and it did the same thing. I will never be doing that again........ I have some studs to replace tomorrow now.
Stretched studs get mushroomed by the capped nuts, loosening makes it grab the thread causing it to snap. Cut a nut in half to see if that happened, should have measured the old studs not removed to make sure they're not too long.
Mr. Doug's is right after further investigation then stretch stubs get mushrooms and as he explains in his sharing I did a follow-up on it and it seems to be that he is right let it go brother we were starting to come up with some real good conspiracies there and jump box and somebody with common sense has to jump in LOL
probably cross-threaded on with the impact from the start, once a thread burrs up or breaks a piece they'll jam tight and be stuck. ***the lugnuts are most always the softer material*** studs twisted off, yikes only seen it happen a few times and most always from hammer carnage removing rusty as fsck rotors, in which the whole hub/bearing should have been changed anyway.
I'm guessing that the lube was added to assist in removal of nuts at the tire store. Lugs with out a minimum of lube will eventually rust and if over torqued will stretch the stud and also bind on the rust. I agree with the other that recommend replacing all five.
5:26, I've experienced this situation. :-) Those studs have got to be aftermarket wang chung. I found from experience that when putting in new studs topless it gets the job done much faster and easier. Thanks for the trick Ivan haha
I've always - thin coated wheel studs and hubs with anti-seize. Never an issue from grocery geters to 3/4 ton diesels. I don't believe that was a mfg failure (look at the uniformity of the "snapped" studs, no porosity etc.) - could be tire shop exposed lug nuts to metal shavings (brake lather etc.) and they stuck due to lube. - were the lugs mixed up / same? Maybe different pitches. I've seen that, where 1.25 was used for 1.5! * I would drill and remove the stud ends to do a more thorough assessment. Also I'd measure the threads on the removed studs to see if they were stretched.
Hello you should never lube a a wheel stud or nut Because the use of lubricant makes it easier to turn the bolt, less torque is going to be needed. Thus, if you lubricate the bolts the wheel nut will not be to the correct torque
Maybe the studs became cross-threaded during previous servicing (hence the nuts were difficult to remove and hence lube was used to screw on the nuts).
Only time I've broken multiple studs is when they were clearly over tightened and they break pretty much how these did .it takes using a cheater pipe on a breaker bar and all of my weight...this was a nice easy fix though 👍
Subaru uses studs that do not meet the standard for suspension fasteners in US markets, they are very soft metal and stretch very easy. This causes the nuts to jam on the strectched part and break off if only slighy overnighted
They are encapsulated (acorn) nuts. Any moister or contamination that's either, on the stud threads or in the nut, gets trapped when the nut is installed and corrosion will quickly ensue, causing the threads to seize when removed. I'm a Subaru dealership Tech and see this happen every day...
To add information that I found interesting. I have a daughter that was learning to drive a few years ago and before we gave her our 2008 Subaru Outback, We required her to have the needed skills to own a car. Where the owners manual is and how to red it and to read it (quizzed her) how and when to check fluids. Most important was how to change a tire. She located the jack and we went thru the pieces, installed the jack and before starting emergency brake on, (of course) level surface as possible. before jacking loosen the lug nuts. Well you know for you honk'in he men it may be easy with a 10" or so lever on the factory lug wrench, but the wimpy girly men like me and and a 17 YO it's a challenge. So I said "hold on lets find something" so I had a 12" piece of pipe lying around that just fit over the end of the wrench. With little effort she loosened the nuts one by one until they were off removed the tire and installed the spare. "Hey that one is weird" she exclaimed! "yep.. it is made that way to embarrass you enough to immediately get the regular tire fixed" I said and we agreed to the point. lowered the car and tightened the nuts hand tight then revered the procedure and put the regular tire back on hand plus tight and lowered the tire enough so it wouldn't turn while tightening. she used the extension to re-tighten the nuts. Afterward we retested the nuts and they were over 95 lbft. We loosened the nuts and she re-tightened the nuts with just the provided wrench. Rechecked and found it withing just a few pounds of the required 76 to 83 lbF figure or whatever the range is. So we were at 95 some of those impact wrenches do trucks and cars 150 to 190 lbf??? I bet ya! Even here on you tube ( the people I love to watch ) dont use the correct (edit or a unknown) torque number on fasteners and I sometimes do it as well (space limitations and all). Yes some are more critical than others but there is truly only one way to know for sure.... Edit Oh And yes she wrapped the 12" pipe in a nice clean rag (that she will need after wiping the mud and grass from her knees, hands and face because you always get a flat when its crappy out) and shoved it in next to the tire nice a quiet. and told her that If she did not feel that she could do it in a safe location to drive somewhere where she could and I did not care if she ruined the car just get someplace safe and not to trust the break down areas (Edit: Really intended to say breakdown lane here. My Brother in law got hit in his car broken down by a DWI driver, Broke the drivers seat and ended up in the back seat up by the window) if car wont run get out and get on the other side of the guard rail.
Fantastic advice, thank you for sharing. If only more of the drivers out there were this prepared and aware, there would be a lot less mishaps on the roads. :)
Great videos. I noticed your comments to Eric o , South main Auto on Subaru head gasket issues. His 5 part series is on a 2003 outback, mine is a 2005. Are there any major differences with this project?
On a lexus, I seen people hammer the lug nut on with an impact. When I went to check the torque, it was way pass 120lbft. I start at 95lbft, then 100lbft, then 115lbft , and 121lbft (all click twice immediately with two different torque wrenches). I was surprised that none of them had snapped.
I was taught that lube doesn't increase the torque on the fastener (since that is measured on the torque wrench, so it's a consistent amount), but it does significantly increase the stretch on the bolt. Do that to a bolt that isn't designed to have a lot of stretch - and that's generally wheel lugs, as they can't have a lot of thread of shaft deformation when they're supposed to be reused over and over - and this is a predictable result.
IM A SUBARU OWNER and yes i think i have the answer .... i took my car to a shop to have my tires replaced and at least two off my lug nuts on every corner snapped off just the way you showed in this vid ... well as it turned out the shop had NOT put the nuts on by hand first before buzzing them on with the gun ..FLAT 4 LIVE turns out they crossed threaded them on and brock off on the way off
I know this is an old video, but this is a big problem on my 2009 Impreza. I have had the misfortune of having 2 flat tires within the last year. Luckily I was near home both times and drove back to my garage where I have a cross shaped lug wrench. I could have never removed the lug nuts with the wrench that Subaru gives you in the spare tire compartment. I snapped 3 lugs off when removing the first flat tire. I had to have it towed to the Subaru dealership where they replaced them. I only snapped 1 off with the second flat tire. The dealership are the ones that have put the tires on my vehicle. No one else like a tire shop. They utilize torque sticks with their air impact tools instead of using a torque wrench by hand. Of course they told me that they trust these torque sticks, but at the same time, they say this is an ongoing problem with the lug nuts and lugs. They told me that it is some design flaw. They have been taking caring of it, not charging me, but the last time they said I will have to pay for new lugs from now on. I think this is a bunch of crap and is turning me off on the Subaru brand. I want to know how the hell they could let an issue like this go on for years without coming up with a solution for it. I'm hoping that I can replace them myself next time like you did in this video.
The extra-fine 1.25 thread is probably a contributing factor (and also why Subaru specifies a lower torque than what you see on vehicles with M12x1.5). The finer the thread, the more clamping force (and bolt stretch) there is for a given torque, or conversely, the required torque to reach a given clamping force is less with finer thread. Good for ease of changing your tire (if properly torqued), but extra bad when a shop goes wild with an impact!
GREAT POINT! I've notices Subaru likes to use fine-thread fasteners in other places as well, like for the brake caliper brackets. Guess what...those snap off too!!!
I’ve ran it to this exact same problem idk why tho new lug studs and lug nuts on a wrx happens fist time I tried taking the wheels off after I got it from the shop the put the rubbers on if you know why please let me know
Off topic question, if brightness and aim are in spec... Would you pass a car with LEDs in OE halogen projectors? Buddy of mine has that question, and has been told by a local (chain) garage that they would not pass it with LEDs in place of halogen. I am leaning towards thinking that the real reason is that he bought his own and they didn't want to install them unless he bought from them. I read through the 2017 Inspection manual from PennDOT and am not seeing anything about this. Before I get people nagging, yes I understand that LEDs and HIDs don't belong in reflector housings and wouldn't do that. On topic, I agree with others that I think someone got a little too happy with the driver or failed to check their torque wrench before it was too late. Likely the first wheel the put on and realized it before the other three wheels. Personally, I would have replaced at least the 5 on that hub, if not all 20 just for peace of mind.
If brightness and aim are to spec, then everything should be OK for inspection. Or just pop in the halogens, get the stickers, and reinstall the LEDs. No big deal!
They must have been stretched if lubed... for sure. I snapped a wheel bearing bolt because i lubed it and the torque spec made it over stretch - after that I stopped lubing critical threads like that, just clean them and call it good.
