Subcision: Does it cause facial sagging? | Dr Davin Lim 

There are so many variables in play, as outlined in this video.

Spot on. Patients have 0 reason to make stuff like that up and use their time to spread the info about it. Dr's on the other hand have all the interest in the world to protect themselvs from backlash. Recognizing they knowingly or unknowingly have botched a person is threatening to their reputation. So they instantly gaslight. They don't for a sec care to listen to the patient. Apparently in the Dr community it's well known that the aestetic drs are often the most unethical ones. They don't really give a f about your face...only their own ass

​@@drdavinlimhad done subcision 1 year go .my saggy cheeks are not going away need help

@@lahore_shorts I wish you the best and may god Heal you in every aspect

@@comquatcash thankyou so much😥❤️

Who is Dr. H??

He is also a dr ​@@ctc6960

@@ctc6960 nothing but an arrogant butcher that you need to avoid at all costs

Been to him too. 6 months later still suffering

@@Laila-ck8tm what happened?

No problem!

What wad your age at the time of procedure? And are you normal weight or rather a bit overweight? Just asking cause I'm wondering if thr people who don't notice sagging afterwards maybe already had some weight or age related sagging. Hope it's not too personal of a question

@@TheMusicLove95 I'm in a healthy weight range, BMI of 22. I was 32 years old, it was done last year. Other than my scarring my face is quite youthful I feel.

What doctor did you do it with?

@@jenniferdiaz4310 Dr. Rullan in San Diego.

​@WillowMary33 Did you have a lot of swelling after the treatment? You remember if it was rather aggressive and on a bigger area of the cheek? And was there only one incision point per cheek ot several? Sorry for the many questions, really curious :)

Glad it was helpful!

Did you go ahead with it?

Not yet, currently on accutane.. again. So I'll be done with this in a couple months then I'll think look at providers who can give me a good result. I need to save some coin first though@@FBUOB

I got a subsicion done about a week ago and Im glad I got it, my acne scarring has reduced and people I know are also noticing it and complimenting me 😊 My face looks like I've got more collagen too. I've got another treatment in a month to finally reduce the last bit of visible acne scarring + laser. If anyone is considering a subsicion, please don't go to cheap clinics, because it was a bit brutal (for me) especially for people with low pain tolerance. Don't worry the doctor will inject your face with anaesthetic first.

Where did you go

Thank you! Im so shocked that such unethical doctors even exist. Are they all some psychos lacking empathy? I even confronted my derm expert about the study and some individual cases I found (wasnt brought up AT ALL by him). Well he basically completely dismissed it saying ofc not...no...no. What would have been his ethical duty to disclose is either "i dont know...ill admit im not up to date about this issue, havent personally had such cases but might be" or "it has been reported but in some cases but couldnt be backed up scientifically yet. That does not mean it is not a real possible side effect. All that means is right now its a theoretical side effect and needs more evidence. Again, it COULD happen. WE DONT KNOW for sure yet" Its not like this potential side effect is so minor that - should it occure - is pretty much irrelevant to your facial attractivness, mental health and self esteem. It shouldnt matter that "its only anecdotal" still when the consequences to the physical appearance, self esteem and mental health and finances for a follow up treatment are SO detrimemtal. Im regularely suicidal, have trauma from it and lost any pretty privilege I once had. This side effect - doesnt matter if still only anecdotal and theoretical - should be mendatory to mention as it has the potential to completly break a person and their life quality with 1 treatment. People who are victims of Dr's who didnt inform them properly suffer daily from it. Theres 20 y/o who have to undergo face lifts in their 20ties to feel somewhat normal/attractive again. This is insanity to me. Even if only theoretically a potential side effect still.....its one that f matters due to its MAJOR impact on the patirnts life.

Right? It's not like it's a minor side effect. It'll kill your facial attractiveness and steal ~a decade of where your looks should be still good in a matter of minutes. The psychological impact is severe so I don't understand how it's treated so lightly regarding the "should I inform about it....ah naaah...why bother...I might lose a patient then". Where are thr ethics?

@@TheMusicLove95 I specifically asked the surgeon if it affects any other structures of the skin before the procedure. Had a scar from a single cyst on the connector between beard and moustache and got subcision 4 weeks ago, now that area of my face, where cheek meets mouth meets chin, looks different and lost all definition. Could it just be swelling? Surgeon said he didnt go deep enough to affect anything but at the same time kinds feeling gaslit. Only 4 weeks ago so could be in my head or could be swelling or could be at worst undermining or total severing of minor facial retaining ligaments where the mouth/cheek meet.

​@@spanishjohn420how is it now. What instrument was used on you

Does a cannula have the same side effects as the tl?

Video done on this, plus write up in my blog. Too much product, namely HA can accumulate over time and yes, in theory can add volume that “migrates” down, ie inferiority / lower face. Hence why I encourage collagen stimulation via injectable placed in the Atrophic scars and in vectors to displace skin…

The same here. How much % of improvement you got with your surgery ? Is your face back to normal ? Did your surgeon find the cause of your swelling during your surgery ?

Many thanks for your viewpoint. I know your case well and certainly agree with your comments regarding the one size fits all aspect of scar revision; instruments & procedures should be selected based upon individual patient factors. Indeed pre & post MRI may serve some purpose if extensive field subcision is considered. As with every case, standardised photography & even body fat content -weight should be measured. In the context of the Liberator, it is merely an instrument that maybe called upon if the job suits. Personally, I prefer finer instruments, however in cases where scarring is extreme in patients with a high fat content-thick dermis, I may call upon this device. Compression itself, in theory will do nothing for retaining ligaments (if this we true of transaction), however it is a very useful way of reducing soft tissue swelling post procedure, in addition to reducing the rate of haematomas. As you correctly pointed out, if the scar signature/s call for energy devices, they are employed in the same setting of subcision, regardless of instrumentation.

@drdavinlim Thank you for the response, Dr Lim. Yes, I agree, I do think if you are doing full field subscision, laser should be done immediately after not just to treat scars but also to contract the skin. I think that it can help resolve superficial swelling/potential stretching from the subscision. Appreciate it won't fix the cutting of retaining ligaments, but I think it reduces the risk of prolonged soft tissue swelling. It's then slightly easier to acertain cause of potential prolonged swelling. I think for a lot of people who have received Taylor Liberator in the UK, it probably was not the appropriate tool for their face, and localised subscision (for example with Nokor) would have sufficed. In my case, the Taylor Liberator released retaining ligaments and caused my malar and buccal fat pads to drop. I'm not saying this would not have happened to me anyway at some point in my life due to natural aging, however, for me, the drop was instantaneous post surgery. To resolve the issue, I had to undergo FL with malar and buccal fat removal/repositioning, plus fat graft (for malar/mid cheek area).

@K-kz5qv Hi, I believe I've had close to 100% improvement to my drooping/lower face saggong post corrective surgery. I've even had my acne scarring improve! I'm only 3 months post treatment, though, so it's still very early yo measure results.

Hi Alia. I'm SO happy to hear that!! Followed your story and sorry you had to go through so much! Would you do an update on how it looks now? I face the same problem in a less severe form but I suffer a lot with it mentally. Thanks!

Well in Dr Lim opinion your perceptions are subjective and it's your fault that you made subcision exactly during "6 months period of accelerated aging." Because he published his paper where he states in conclusion that subcision is safe. Full stop. Imagine how this paper will help to all the criminal doctors around the world to gaslight the victims. All his doing is covering his and his colleagues' asses, that's all. That's not science, that's a conflict of interest.

@@USERID-zm5qe absolutely, he's just listing theories to explain the sagging (where is he even gathering research?). But at the end of the day, it's only the facelift surgeons performing revision surgery who are able to see what's happened (at least two TL patients who've had facelifts say it was a combination of fat pad prolapse and fibrosis). Dr H subcised my entire cheek, which has undoubtedly affected the positioning of fat in my face, significantly ageing me. I'm also an identical twin, and she didn't have TL but still has lovely high cheekbones and facial fat around her cheekbones - which hasn't suddenly travelled south like mine has (we have very similar lifestyles), so the fat dropping suddenly was definitely caused by Dr H's botched treatment. I had no idea that this could be a potential complication at the time, but I'm glad patients are coming forward and warning others as it is quite a distressing complication to have when you're still in your 20s.

I had a few lumps under my skin after also but they faded over a year and now my skin looks so much better than before. For me it was worth it. You need to start massaging those scars everyday and use a scar dissolving cream. It worked me

@@evil1knight what kind of scar dissolving cream you used?

@@USERID-zm5qe Rosemary essential oil is considered to be against scars. Mix it with castor oil, make it 10% concentration. It can soften the area. Also for effective subcision Vitamin D is very important, it prevents formation of fibrosis tissues, so after subcision a lot of broken bonds do not re-attach.

Risk to benefit ratio should be considered. Ideally as a percentage or number, pertaining to the instrument, method and practitioner. The first two Via publications, the last via the honest disclosure of the treating surgeon. First two, controlled via scientific publications, last, eeeer difficult to quantify given the variables. Hence why I feel it’s so vitally important to OBJECTIVELY document cases, and yes, account for all the possible contributions to this process. The most important thing to consider is the causative vs correlative aspects. My initial theory is that there are many different factors that come into Play, and importantly to rule out incidental age related changes. Again discussed in the video. Reference paper has been cited in the publication (😉), so don’t worry, all covered!!! Essentially we have to take each case into consideration, weighing up the risks of aggression vs conservative cannula. I also illustrated the other side of triangulation with entry points in the inferior and medial aspects of the face, including idiosyncratic scarring, especially in dark skin types. This sort of discussion is extremely thought provoking and will certainly add to the argument regarding techniques, instruments employed, risks, and benefits. Well done for raising the points! I hope that post publication you, or others can provide more insight and viewpoints. This only amplifies our limited knowledge on this subject.

@@drdavinlim This only amplifies our LIMITED KNOWLEDGE on this subject?! Then why did you promote this method? and never said your knowledge is limited on it?

@@USERID-zm5qe Dr. Lim never promoted this to be done by non-trained MD or MD with limited experience. He was very clear on this on every one of his posts. That it's not the instrument, it's the person using that instrument regardless of what it is.....almost on anything.

@@daniellelouise970 needle subsacion also causing sagging ? I am in depression

​​@@arar7676why haven't you contacted your doctor till now ?

Did you have swelling still swelling in your face and it seems heavy for you ?

You are indeed welcome. The true risk of sagging (Not as a causative factor, but an incidental correlation), is very slim (if any).

this is not an honest video by far

@@drdavinlim stop the gaslighting already

@@USERID-zm5qe Stop this non-sense. Seriously.

Don't say that please when you and all other derms literally don't know this at this point in time.

It would be interesting to hear his opinion. I know the budget dermatologist did a couple videos a year or so ago on her issues with fillers.

Depends on the type of injectable, explained in more detail on my website

I would not risk it tbh from my own experience

Hi. Since this guy NEVER deigns to answer his audience, I'll give u my opinion, based only on my own rolling scars experience. It's a combination approach and that does include fractionated laser (c02). RF micro needling will work from the bottom up, so to speak, while fractionated works top down. The peel is intense and deep but once it peels off u have plump glowing skin. That's the Cinderella effect unfortunately. So u gotta come up w the $$ to do both rf and this repeatedly. We're almost looking for that miracle aren't we? It takes time, patience and $$. Not necessarily in that order lol. Good luck and find a well skilled practitioner!

What kind of subsacion you have done?

How long ago was it? And how many sessions?

@@simper420Proper sessions was 3, last one was with PRP. What I realised is the reason scars retether or done improve as much is because the person preforming the subcision was not thorough enough. Almost all videos on youtube they clearly miss scars. Also i done the suction method aggressively for 2 weeks after the subcisions. Its been 2 months since my last treatment. 97% better than before. My scars are not noticeable at all

Me too

happy for you@@WillowMary33

@@fpsSYRIAomg this is great

Is it still like that?

@@Saibu-uo4ts seems better now I reckon its just swelling and will reduce as the hypertrophic scar goes down, part of it is just the scar creating a shadow next to my mouth. It's over a month since subcision and its still changing every day

@spanishjohn420 thanks for the answer. Happy to hear that. Lucky you had only 1 scar. Imagine having the whole cheeks being subcised. That's where the real damage starts :((

@@Saibu-uo4ts True, my surgeon is a specialist in scars but I did ask about the taylor liberator full cheek subcision and he says thats way too aggressive unless you have really bad combination scars across both cheeks and even then its better to do each scar individually, but that takes several hours, rather than 30 mins. Which is why most won't do it.

@spanishjohn420 does he think the same about full cheek subcision with blunt cannula? Where only 1 incision point is used for to subcise the whole cheek? Thanks for sharing! Good you went to someone knowledgeable. Can you share the name?

Watch the video I did specifically for ice pick scars…

I'm so sorry. Why did they recommend subcision if you only had a mild scar that bothered you?

@@AbstractMindsThinkAlike they only offered CO2 laser or taylor liberator subcision. I didn't want laser as I'd been put off by the downtime and having to shield myself from the sun. I had mild boxcar scarring on my cheeks, but one deeper scar that bothered me in particular and seemed tethered. I wish I researched the procedure more, was aware of the risks and the negative reviews about this Dr (H, of course) and could turn back time. The anguish of basically being robbed of your natural face shape by the awful aggressive technique of a cowboy is something else. I'm getting a facelift later this year for my sanity as my cheeks resemble those of someone in their 50s and I'm still in my 20s!

not at all, no subcision is safe

Agreed

I was thinking recently about getting subcision procedure for a scar on the chin with Dr Nelson Lee novick he has good reviews according to what I have seen recently but all of these comments have scared me enough what are your thoughts?

I have ice pick scars please can you tell me if the subcision with filler helped you 😔😔

@@sousousou4160 yes! They are not completely gone but a major improvement after 3 sessions and the great thing is the subcision is permanent and Bellafill is specifically designed to last way longer than regular filler. It has made much more of a difference than microneedling and laser ever did. Hope this helps

@@tonylowry8338 Hello, which doctor did you have the procedure with?

Finally a positive feedback. I had this done also and surprised at the number of people in here commenting about their negative experience. All i can see on my face is just the improvement. Had this done last year and it came as a package. Subcision+PRP+TCA cross+C02. I didnt do a follow up session. I couldnt afford it anymore. Turned out once is enought and i had bad acne scars

@@jenniferdiaz4310 I went to Elizabeth Karaali in the Detroit area. She is a NP

1. Objective comparison with before & after. 2. Exclude oedema, & secondary causes. 3. Your specialist can guide you as to the objective results & provide a treatment plan. Cheers, Davin Lim

Did you do cannula subcison?

Hi there. Is there a way we can connect? Im facing the same problem and I'd love to chat and share experiences!

@@TheMusicLove95hi! Sure, do you have an instagram?

Me too but I’m 33 :(

How about your swelling ?

do u get results

@@user-nh4xi7mu8n actually I do see a lot of improvement not 100 percent better but, 75 ish. Laser sessions and micro needling… to help collogan building

What we need to know are variables such as procedure itself and most importantly the role of chronological aging; correlation and causation.

Did you do canuala subcison ?

This is such a classic politician non-answer 😂 just be ethical and own up to the shit this procedure has the potential to do. For real....expected more from you. If I were a Dr. I would take thus so serious as soon as it'd report back to me (especially several times) and instantly try to collect research on the matter instead of harming further people

@@Saibu-uo4ts this doctor seems to lack ethics in my opinion and is also in black and white on the APHRA registration website, so I'm not making it up. Look him up on the APHRA registration site about his ethics and decision making matters.

similar factors as discussed

Transient pigment darkening from pico the day before 😂

Relied. First step? Objective assessment before any treatment. All the best.

Was it cannula subcision? Or Taylor Liberator?

Exactly the same in my case!

Go back to where you got it done

@@arar7676 that's not normal it take a few days to heal. Speak to the person who done it

@@arar7676 It's best to speak to them or go to the doctor.

@@sandeepjaiswal2179 how is your face swelling now ? me have same problem

@@arar7676 no my condition was good

Can you give details about the subcision? Starting to think it has a lot to do with how big of an area, the place of subcison and how many incision points Did you have cannula? How big was the cannula (if you remember)? How many entry points? Was it a big area that was subcised? Which part of face?......etc. Thanks a lot! And good it worked out for you. In my case there was unfortunately sagging and increased bottom heaviness (smile just changed somehow also)

​@@Saibu-uo4tsneedle subsacion also causing sagging ? I am so nervous I had done subsacion 3 months ago and still having swelling

With subcision

what doctor?

​@@jenniferdiaz4310Dr Henningsen in Denmark