Super Tweeters Suck... Here's Why

John Heisz - Speakers and Audio Projects

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Comb filtering happens when you have two drivers (speakers) playing the same signal and the signal from one of those drivers reaches your ear before the other one. Depending on the delay time, some frequencies are reinforced while others will cancel out, making the frequency response look like a comb with teeth (peaks and dips). This is a very audible (and proven to be audible) effect.
So while the super tweeter can give a substantial boost to the high end response, it can also degrade the midrange response. And our hearing is most sensitive to these midrange frequencies.
Not shown in this video is how much worse the response can become when listening off axis, especially vertically. As you move above or below the speaker's tweeter, the delay increases, causing more of that comb filtering effect.
Getting the super tweeter as physically close to the speaker's tweeter as possible and using a higher order filter (crossover) will help to mitigate these unwanted effects. But a better "fix" for a perceived lack of high frequency detail is to either crank up the treble knob (if your setup has one) or get yourself fitted with hearing aids.
Believe it or not, hearing aids will make a massive difference if your hearing has degraded due to age or damage. And it's a difference that you can't match by boosting the high frequency response of your speakers or by adding a super tweeter.
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Опубликовано:

17 авг 2022

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Комментарии : 67

@IBuildIt Год назад

Comb filtering happens when you have two drivers (speakers) playing the same signal and the signal from one of those drivers reaches your ear before the other one. Depending on the delay time, some frequencies are reinforced while others will cancel out, making the frequency response look like a comb with teeth (peaks and dips). This is a very audible (and proven to be audible) effect. So while the super tweeter can give a substantial boost to the high end response, it can also degrade the midrange response. And our hearing is most sensitive to these midrange frequencies. Not shown in this video is how much worse the response can become when listening off axis, especially vertically. As you move above or below the speaker's tweeter, the delay increases, causing more of that comb filtering effect. Getting the super tweeter as physically close to the speaker's tweeter as possible and using a higher order filter (crossover) will help to mitigate these unwanted effects. But a better "fix" for a perceived lack of high frequency detail is to either crank up the treble knob (if your setup has one) or get yourself fitted with hearing aids. Believe it or not, hearing aids will make a massive difference if your hearing has degraded due to age or damage. And it's a difference that you can't match by boosting the high frequency response of your speakers or by adding a super tweeter.

@alflud Год назад

If you haven't tanked your main channel yourself John you better go and look. Looks like someone's after taking it over and removing/hiding all of your videos, playlists and so on. Renamed to ARK Invest, changed your banner and is now doing one of those Elon Musk Bitcoin livestreams ... which are known scams. Just said I'd let you know in case it's not you that's done it.

Год назад

John hackearon tu canal principal 🙁

@BostonMike68 Год назад

The frequency comb more over high frequency. I built a tmm but I didn't make it a 2.5 crossover but it sounds good to me because I crossover low but I might change the crossover .

@railgap 9 месяцев назад

So what you're saying is that the quality of the crossover matters as much or more (for the tweeter only, I'm talking!) than the driver? If so, I agree and wish more people thought that way! Group delay is a thing.

@CDN_Torsten Год назад

The problem with having 2 tweeters/speaker is that they need to be placed within one wavelength of each other to be additive. This becomes problematic at higher frequencies as the wavelength may become quite short (less than 2cm at 20kHz for example). The second potential problem will be that the tweeters will become much more directional (which may or may not be a desired feature). For example stacking them vertically will narrow the sound image in the vertical direction while keeping the horizontal image a wide as it was with only a single driver.

@vicf6509 Год назад

I really enjoy the material and information that you have on this channel.

@Audio_Simon Год назад

Nice video! Interesting the comb filtering was more at low frequencies. I guess at the higher frequencies it is there too, but so narrow and evenly spread it is difficult to detect. For what it's worth my supertweeters have a 2nd order acoustic high-pass at 16khz. Also recommend to keep some distance between them and the main tweeter or even point off-axis a bit.

@perlman7376 5 месяцев назад

Well done video with something to think about before leaping. From what I know of them, my EPI 100s don't go above 10Khz and so a super tweeter set above 9Khz might be a good thing in my situation. What model Elac speakers are those?

@robertgates3258 Год назад

In my observations the comb filtering characteristics change just as much by moving the microphone a few inches as it does the supertweeter. Moving back from 1 meter to 3 meters there are there are a dozen or so node changes, each at slightly different but distinct frequencies. But in the end, the negative effects can go away when listening to complex waveforms (music). With the right crossover and Lpads on both drivers, you can really add a nice new dimension to your speakers. I use a second order xover at 12KHz with a JBL ST450 supertweeter.

@kiv9431 Год назад

Thank you so much for this video! You helped me to a mistake.

@mkshffr4936 Год назад

On my next build I am considering a single tweeter firing up into a bi-directional reflector.

@sudd3660 Год назад

i think this was a fair enough test of basic supertweeter addition. like most times i heard of them as and addon pice you place near your tweeter. there are many ways this upper end tweeter could work better. if you have a dsp crossover speaker, then you can have steep slopes for the 8khz and above and make a low pass filter to the normal tweeter, or only add this kind of tweeter to speakers that lack anything up there. would have thought that these 8khz and above tweeters could be made to be very small.

@95Sn95 Год назад

I built a big powerful 36v 2.1 boombox I took into work, it has two dynalab 8" midbass one recoil 8" sub and two budget soundstream 1" silk domes and it actually sounded excellent, one of the tweeters blew so I tossed a pair of super tweeters in there place, I was curious I've never owned/used any.... Well the unwanted ear piercing highs are definitely there now I have caused a big frequency gap because it sounds like crap. So I'm putting a set of silk domes back in. I was thinking maybe reinstall the SDs with there cap but leave the super tweets with there cap to possibly compliment the silk domes? Other choice is to leave them in non functioning because I cut a 2.75" hole for them don't really want a big patch. What do you think use both sets of tweeters with there included caps or just run the silk domes. Only problem I can think of is efficiency differences I won't be able to attenuate the tweeters separately just the treble knob that would control both combined... With the super tweets stand overpower silk domes still sounding lousy or will the silk domes just fill the gap returning my sound quality. I do have a pair of l pad knobs on some old speakers and seen them pretty cheap thinking prob the best option? but that's getting to be more trouble than it's worth for boombox at moment. Any suggestions? I did learn my lesson unless your building a PA system to shoot highs 100 yards or trying to hear highs with 160db of subwoofers super tweets prettymuch suck. Just like how the market pro audio drivers for automotive systems. I've tried PA 6.5" " mids" and they sound lousy, low quality loud midrange no midbass... I replaced my Rockville PA64s with silver flutes now the gap between my subs and midrange is filled.

@SuperAmazingAnt Год назад

I have suggestions for videos and maybe they are fun also. 1. Testing/measuring how adding neodym magnets to speaker elements affect them. Elements with neodym are pretty expensive, magnets not so much. Should make them , more sensitive faster and more power efficient(?) 2. Measuring / example how double of cabinet size affect the sound. 3. Full range speaker elements, does adding tweeter make them better.

@edstud1 Год назад

What app do you use to measure frequency response.

@amdenis Год назад

Well explained, and fun to watch and follow process. Two little FYI things. First, that speaker is a standard dome, not a horn speaker. If that was really a horn, virtually all speakers would be a horn. Second, super tweeters are generally 20kHz and above, and serve a different, but related purpose.

@IBuildIt Год назад

FYI, a quick Google search will find that the majority of the super tweeters for sale cross well below 20K. And I know exactly what a horn is, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say a dome tweeter is a horn, but you can horn load any tweeter. If a tweeter is mounted in a geometry that causes a change in efficiency or directivity, it's being horn loaded.

@amdenis Год назад

@@IBuildIt Call things whatever you like as it's a free country-- I just was trying to help. Sorry, I was not meaning to be critical. I am fairly deep into the analog and digital fields related to audio, video and photonics and related engineering, as I have launched some of the major media labs and studios across the country, and began working with Schwartz, Hafler, Scholz and others at LIHTI, the MIT Media lab, Sound Workshop and elsewhere back in the 70's-80's. Obviously, like everyone else, I am wrong on a regular basis. However, in these cases misuse of terminology is very common. Specifically, it sounds like you may not be aware of the the article some years back that first called a regular tweeter on top of a speaker cabinet a "super-tweeter". They referred to it as being on top of the box or "super" (rather than in-cabinet or otherwise). Actual super-tweeters existed back then, but were generally significantly more expensive and served a different, albeit somewhat overlapping, set of acoustic engineering purposes. However, while many tweeters drive past 20kHz and many actual super-tweeter begin driving signal well below 20 kHz, common parlance for a super-tweeter world-wide is a tweeter designed to take over for the range above a regular tweeter, or "super" to a tweeter frequency-wise, not positionally. Same thing is true of a horn or horn loaded monitor. While a throat of 2" or more based on any one of many common geometries constitute either a flared (beginning above 2"), or fully horn-loaded design above that using appropriate geometry as well as generally built upon a compression rather than coil-driver, it is as incorrect to call ones that fit in none of those categories horn or horn-loaded, as it is to call partial harmonics, the same thing as harmonics. Anyone with enough years in the profession, or with doctoral or post-doc degrees in the field quickly susses-out those misusing terminology as hobbyists or entry level professionals, as a doctor quickly realizes someone is not a medical professional who be highly knowledgeable compared to other non-medical professionals. FYI, also online: Horn designs: www.grc.com/acoustics/an-introduction-to-horn-theory.pdf Tweeters vs super-tweeters: boomspeaker.com/super-tweeters-vs-tweeters/

@IBuildIt Год назад

Again, tell all this to the manufacturers that are selling "super" tweeters that cross as low as 4K. I'm sure they'd love the help. And as for your definition of a horn, tell it to the speaker manufacturers that are horn loading non-compression drivers and calling them "wave guides". A horn improves the efficiency by impedance matching and controls directivity, regardless of how deep it is. You can horn-load a dome tweeter with a fairly shallow wave guide and see a boost in the lower frequencies as a result of the improvement in impedance matching. You will also make the output more directional. That's horn loading. Wave guides ARE horns.

@amdenis Год назад

@@IBuildIt I try to not derive my educational cues from marketing gloss and associated methodology. I get it, you are not a professional engineer, so surface-level terms and terminology definitions work fine for those purposes. That’s obvious from prior comments and the fact that you directly equate horns and wave-guides. You are not alone, especially in terms of sales/marketing materials, which strongly bias many consumers. In the most general terms, an acoustical horn is an impedance transformer and an acoustical waveguide controls directivity. Many years ago before cheap amplification, horns were designed to make small input signals louder, and aspects like beamwidth and directivity were not generally a priority. Later, as low priced amplification was introduced, it became viable to trade some gain and sensitivity for directivity and pattern control. So horns and waveguides, though similar in configuration, are designed for different purposes and are governed by very different equations and associated physics. However, in consumer/hobbyist circles many terms are used interchangeably, despite being technically quite incorrect. Also, words like “guide” that have both technically applicable and common non-technical meanings, often get applied by marketing people (hense Amar Bose’s oribinal push-back on his marketing company’s use of the phrase “acoustic wave-guide technology”, since it was not at all technically correct. There are completely different equations governing waveguides and horns. If you care to learn more, one of the veterans in the field provides a good, short overview on the subject: www.gedlee.com/Papers/What%20is%20a%20Waveguide.pdf

@IBuildIt Год назад

I've made a point of saying that I'm not an expert. If not in this particular video, then in others related. But that doesn't mean I know nothing about the subject at all. Like I said, I know EXACTLY what a horn is, because it's really quite simple. In fact I made a video talking about this very horn / wave guide "issue" quoting Earl Geddes himself to back up what I was saying. Watch that here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1rZBLRdaAoo.html Note what he says: "all wave guides are horns, but not all horns are wave guides". That means that a shallow "wave guide" will behave like a horn. So I AM familiar with his work and I've built horns and used them and measured them and shown the efficiency gain you'll get by using them. He says a wave guide, by his definition, is primarily used for directivity control, but it's STILL A HORN! Are you now going to refute the very source you used and say that he also has it wrong?

@terryilett9437 Год назад

Although not DIY, you can purchase Aperion aluminium ribbon super tweeters with built in crossovers that sit on top of your existing speakers, very good products, I have mine sitting on top of vintage Altec Santiago's , i'm happy with the result, all the best.

@Shadowban69 Год назад

Turn the tweeter backwards or straight up or angled 45 degrees towards the rear. Or position the speaker back from the baffle in 1/2 " increments until the correct phase is achieved. That is the fun of the quest of the best sound. Baffle-less speakers are the next step. Use a bread board to build an external crossover jjg and test caps inductors and crossover variation. Lots of cool tests to run.

@rickhunt3183 Год назад

what about wiring the tweeters in series instead of parallel ? How would that affect the graph?

@PirxthePilot 11 месяцев назад

One thing that was not mentioned i think ...volume level...at the time of test. These days i listen to music at around 55-65 db. At that level my tower tweeters were definitelly sat backward and lacked detail. Application of diy tweeters (aluminium) vs (speaker tweeter soft dome) with L pad set at 6db and high pas filter at 3 khz appeared to remedy the issue. I can now fully hear strings, platters , bells, air in the room...so to each of their own. I did play with the spectrum analyzer and it does appear that I am experiencing some frequency rolloff pass 8khz - but honestly for what i gained which is almost linear response to that point - I am really happy. With that said - all was done on tower speakers with unknown level of degradation off crossover circuit...it just does sound great now...😂

@larry999y Год назад

thanks, you helped me a lot. I had an idea to add a super tweeter to the acoustics, but I ran into the calculation of the band-pass filter and phase matching. Now I understand that the game was not worth the candle

@jmalljmall 4 месяца назад

Don't go by these computer measurements go by your ears. They totally add to your system.I promise you you just have to tweak them.

@jdlech 8 месяцев назад

what I most commonly see with supertweeters is that people plop it on top of a box with a simple 1st order filter and little to no effort to phase match the tweeter. A super tweeter should not be used unless the tweeter rolls off at the high end. Second, a super tweeter needs a high order filter set to a point that takes over for a tweeter with a high freq. rolloff. They are not meant to compete with each other. Third, plopping on top of the box is just stupid. It needs to be as close to the tweeter as possible - literally cutting the baffle of one to accommodate the other. In the example of the Elac, the supertweeter baffle should be cut to butt directly up to the tweeter's horn. In other systems, the two baffles should be integrated to minimize the space between drivers. As you know, electronically phase matching high order filters is notoriously difficult. But there's another way. Physical phase matching. You have the opportunity to phase match the drivers by physically mounting the supertweeter forward or back from level with the tweeter (the Z axis). You could use 1/16" or 1/32" shims until you get good phase matching. This informs you of how well the two will work together, and how deep you want to cut the speaker baffle on the final build. Basically build a test baffle to get it right before cutting the real speaker box up. Even so, I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of cutting into their factory spec speakers and modding their drivers. Too much work and planning, and it takes some confidence in your skill level. But you don't have to worry too much about phase matching high order filters when you control the mounting depth of the supertweeter. And since we're talking about a crossover point that should be no lower than 12KHz, it doesn't take much along the Z axis to make a dramatic difference in phase matching. All in all, you hit on some of the right things to do with a super tweeter. But you can take it one more step. Try a 3rd order filter on the ST, add a lowpass filter to the tweeter, and cross them over so they don't compete much. Then play with physical mounting on the Z axis to phase match them. I'm sure you'll love the result.

@lambda7652 Год назад

Have you considered collaborating with Armir from ASR? Or erinsaudiocorner? they have very sophisticated measuring equipment.

@longplayer8600 Год назад

I'm 61 and my hi freqs are shot after years of loud rock. Got hearing aids a couple of years ago, didn't think I'd like wearing them since I can get by without but...man do they improve music listening w/my numerous assorted speakers. My ACI Jaguars sound like the premium speakers they were built to be. They also have bluetooth which is cool. Oticon OPN is the brand my audiologist recommends to musicians & music lovers so that's what I got. Great if you have insurance or the cash b/c they're $5000+ a pair (thanks VA healthcare!). But think of it this way; paying that amount out for speakers, tools, assorted toys, whatever is fine for a lot of us.

@WeeWeeJumbo 7 дней назад

🫡

@eleckson 2 месяца назад

Kinda crazy to not mention the model of ELAC in this video at all, nor the description.

@woodyTM Год назад

I always appreciate the time and effort you put into these experiments; best part is that you'll always have people in the comments finding ways to dispute against everything your experiment shows, which contrary to popular belief, is a good thing because theres always room to expand our collective knowledge and refine the experiment process.

@IBuildIt Год назад

Nothing wrong with people disagreeing, as long as their argument is based on fact. Too many are arguing from assumptions and secondhand knowledge that may not be accurate.

@Aswaguespack Год назад

I second that opinion

@Mrstevebro56 Год назад

Help me to understand the PureAudioProject Duet15 no box open feel?

@danial2771 3 месяца назад

sir, how could i generate a sound of 25khz frequency i know i wouldn't be able to hear it but i want to generate a sound of 25khz frequency with high volume so which speaker must be ideal for it and which generator should i use.

@vinylcabasse Год назад

i'm 38 now but have been messing around with all things audio since i was a young kid. i remember playing with a signal generator program (can't remember what it was, perhaps the one built into winISD?) and being able to hear the super high pitched squeals at 19khz, approaching 20khz. now its my tinnitus that covers that range and basically everything past 16khz. i hope that one day modern medicine will come up with something to revive or build new hair cells in our ears... seems like it should be possible

@Wen6543 Год назад

That´s excellent for your age, up to 16 khz is for ages between 25 and 30 more or less. I´m 41 years old and last year i could hear a little more than 16 without problem, now i´m around 15.8. I always took care of my hearing with all kind of noise protections, never using headphones for too long and never too loud, etc. Unfortunately in the mid 40s is when the hearing tends to deteriorate heavily.

@alteredgaits 2 дня назад

less is more with the top... you just go tone def when there's _too_ mush. even if you can't hear a tone, can still feel the impulse

@xxxYYZxxx 2 месяца назад

Point the super tweeter backwards or straight up. The delay from the reflected sound mitigates comb filtering while adding some ambience to the overall sound quality.

@dmkays 8 месяцев назад

Super tweeters don't suck. Bats really love them.

@AALavdas 10 месяцев назад

This is a video about paralleel tweeters, not supertweeters. Of course you will get all these problems if you add a tweeter at 8K with a 1st order filter!! That's 6db down at 4K. Even with second order, you are asking for trouble. You are basically running two tweeters in parallel, not a supertweeter, and comb filtering will occur. If you want to cross so low (because 8K is low for a ST), you would need a 24 db/oct at least. Better still, use a steep filter, as you said, and cross even higher.

@ShainAndrews Год назад

Just got my hearing checked. I'm starting to loose top end frequencies, which makes me sad. Right now its 16k and up. I could tell it was occurring over the past year. I'm almost 50 so pretty well in the middle of the pack. Was hoping to push it out another 10 years. Oh and reading glasses became a requirement too. I will be checking to see with the medical community can do for that because I hate glasses with a passion.

@ScottGrammer 9 месяцев назад

I'm 59 and my hearing stops at 13k. I hate it because throughout most of my life I could hear things others couldn't. In my early 20's I could hear to 22k in my right ear and 18k in my left. But, I guess for nearly 60, 13k is not too bad.

@ShainAndrews 9 месяцев назад

@@ScottGrammer Yup. It is what it is. I have always been very diligent about hearing protection but nothing can be done for genetics. Doctors told me there is noting that can be done for my eyes since only my near vision is impacted.

@Mikexception Год назад

Your conclusion is right - having good flat sopranos any super is damaging for proper linearity. By way when we put two identical tweeters in exact distance from one microphone then should be no any interferences nor comb filtering They just are adding. That is not case in your test where they are different by construction of diaphragms. - sure here was whole bunch of phases,. The problem is in capacity of 1 raw filering which provides second raw filtering in serial connection with tweeter coil and thus createe serial resonance which has nothing common with calculated crossover frequency and is located much higher - that is the reason of not flat shape in range above 10 kHz. On other hand filtering at it's fastest slope where we desire it works as fast phase shifter and this of course disturbs adding and may provide weakening of frequencies depending on actual phases of both speakers It never will be 2x as calculated - always less, and even mucch less because at tha same time lo-mid provides opposite phase disturbance That is why in range 4kHz it is down in compare to 10kHz above.Thatis what I learned practiacly and confirmad by measurements in hundreds tests. My last idea was installation of one and later even two supertweeters for some 8kHz-16kHz for each widerange in my speakers using four elecrtostats with flat plates supplied with 200VDC and guess what? - by ear judgement after month I dismantled them as I am sure they provide disadvantages while I couldn't notice enough advantage to compensate it. I do not need them and estimate that the same those who can hear 20kHz

@Mash333 6 месяцев назад

I thought “super tweeters” were only active above 20k, with a very steep hi pass filter. Extending the FR of the system. The application shown here is simply adding another tweeter.

@Nathan-ry3yu 11 месяцев назад

Its very hard to tune super tweeters with speaker drivers I find.

@tomtremaine4452 Год назад

It's not your hearing, that super tweeter do. It's the leading edge of the waveform

@mrpres17 Год назад

I find it odd that you didn't integrate it better into the speaker. When I saw the title I assumed you would've used a dsp to give the super tweeter 15khz and up and then the regular tweeter 3khz-15khz to make it a 3 way in a similar fashion to the Sony sscs5's. I think it's pretty obvious not crossing over frequencies would result in way too much high end

@NeilBlanchard Год назад

Yup - this is why no serious speaker has two (or more) tweeters covering the same range - with the exception of line source speakers?

@railgap 9 месяцев назад

If the crossover circuitry were righteous, the two drivers would not be playing the same signal. But this is never done in practice.

@Harpo55555 Год назад

A super tweeter works above (super) normal tweeter range. You did not demonstrate this, you merely showed why two unequal tweeters are bad.

@sc0or Год назад

People won't add a "super" tweeter for frequencies that are already played with their tweeter good. This would be a mad idea. What a super tweeter does, it plays from 20 (most textile dome tweeters stop there) up to 40. Of course this super tweeter is AMT, or a ribbon, or even a plasma one.

@IBuildIt Год назад

That was my understanding of what a super tweeter does as well. But then I did a quick Google search and found things called super tweeters that will crossover as low as 8KHz. But that's semantics and misses the point of this video, which is the interaction a super tweeter can have with the tweeter that's in your speakers. It's something everyone who's thinking about getting a super tweeter should know.

@Audio_Simon Год назад

@@IBuildIt It would be my guess those supertweeters are for use with 6" or bigger single-driver speakers. You could point that off-axis to supplement the narrow directivity. Or they are just a stupid design.

@takeiteasy6154 Год назад

Most recordings don't capture ultrasonics in instruments, so a super tweeter is useless in that instance

@shining31 Год назад

Your filter doesn't take into account delays or distances. So you won't be able to fully mitigate the comb filtering.... It's just the way you've designed the xo that is problematic

@Quarryparksharks Год назад

what's the highest frequency you are able to hear?

@IBuildIt Год назад

At normal listening levels, around 11KHz

@99Duds 11 месяцев назад

For a super tweeter I think 8K is too low to cross. Should be like 18K and down cut off. Other wise it gets in the way.

@yurodivy1 2 месяца назад

A more accurate title would be "Here's Why My Crossovers For Super Tweeters Suck". Are people really trying to have this much overlap with their stock tweeters? I am in the process of adding dipole super tweeters to my Magnepan LRSs and they will have a third order crossover at 10k, maybe a little higher so the overlap with the Magnepans will be minimal.