Took a course at Carrier yesterday. While working with 454B, using power tools that don’t spark, having a leak detector on around you, and having a clear escape route are the precautions they recommend. A separate circuit board and sensor inside that cuts the AC/HP off if it senses a leak(also cuts your heat off if you have a gas furnace). Then it allows it to come back on after it dissipates. You now have to pressure test with nitrogen for an hour. Increased labor, higher costs, more things to fail and possible safety concerns… I’m sure everyone will be onboard with the change.
I've just entered the hvac field and it's funny to me how you dont understand that none of that matters. It's up to the EPA and montreal protocol to decide what we use and how we are supposed to use it. They don't care if it's harder on us or the business owners. 😂
Even if R1234yf refrigerant leaking might be unlikely unlikely to "cause" a fire when exposed to a small spark, if there already is a fire, this refrigerant will significantly accelerate the fire and create extremely toxic gas as it burns.
Your test was not within the stoichiometric combustion range of the A2L Gas. This gas is combustable in concentrations of less than 13% at room temperature and normal atmospheric pressures. See the MSDS: "Flammable gases, Category 1 Gases, which at 20°C (68°F) and a standard pressure of 101.3 kPa (14.7 psi): (a) are ignitable when in a mixture of 13% or less by volume in air; or (b) have a flammable range with air of at least 12 percentage points regardless of the lower flammable limit.
What everyone is missing is the flamible refrigerants are mixed with flamible oil, you get a napalm bomb. Insurance companies are not going to insure technicians, supply houses and manufacturers. This will put an end to this insanity.
Nice demonstration, however I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. Yes HC's are combustible however the charge amount used in most applications is quite low compared to the LPG tank that some cars are fitted with as a petrol substitute? What's the argument, if your system was to leak it could ignite? What's stopping your fuel from leaking and igniting either ? Silly argument in my opinion.
You're exactly right. The amount of HC needed as a refrigerant in an automotive application would be very small--certainly much smaller than the amount of gasoline constantly running through the fuel rails of the vehicle.
One major difference is that it doesn't take much to damage the car's condenser and cause a refrigerant leak,. For example, if there is a minor accident and the condenser is smashed, there could be a fire. However, the fuel system would be much more difficult to damage since it isn't right in front of the car, exposed to rocks flying up, accidents, etc.
Avery Alexander of course that is assuming that if they were to move to using HCs as refrigerants in autos that they would leave the condensers in the front of the vehicle in a vulnerable location. Nonetheless, there have already been tests done where front end collisions were simulated. They found that, indeed, other elements caught fire before the HC refrigerant coming from the damaged condenser. These items, of course, were the gasoline being transported to the injectors, motor oil, electrical wiring, and rubber hoses. Very interesting results. Again, the amount of HC refrigerant would be so small, that although it is flammable, would quickly flash off and be gone before catching anything else on fire.
@@SpeedCultureStudios So where do you think the condenser could be moved to where it would likely not be damaged? It needs to be somewhere with a lot of airflow.
Avery Alexander I would have to think about that for awhile. However, I would assume that auto design engineers would consider a number of options if they were working with a flammable refrigerant. But like I said, there have been crash tests done already and the results were very interesting. Although flammable, the HC refrigerant did not ignite upon impact. And again, the charge is so small that if by some chance it did ignite, it would flash so quickly that chances that it would cause anything else to ignite seems quite slim, let alone cause an explosion. I think the transition is inevitable. I work with manufacturers in the refrigeration industry. hydrocarbons are the standard in Europe and it is being considered for autos. Charge limits will likely be increased as well. I think it’s just a matter of time. HCs are so efficient and effective that it only makes sense.
In terms of safety it must be also considered what can be product of combustion. For R1234yz it is highly danger hydrogen fluoride. Car can be on fire from different reasons.
Right now they are changing the building codes for flammability because of A2L meaning, they weren't allowed because of flammability and potential for explosion.
R1234YF is way to go. I see R1234YF is hard to sustain a flame on its own even being ignited with a fire source. My concern with Hydro Carbon refrigerant flammability is not about losing life but about property damage. We can quickly get out of the car if there's a fire. However, fire can still life threathening in a bus where it's hard for all people to get out quickly. My concerin is that HC refrigerant such as Propane can ignite with a spark from static or battery post and damages the engine compartment! It's will be expensive and big hassle!
combustion can not occur if there's no oxygen present. if your house or car is already engulfed in flames the little propane there is on an AC system will be the last of your worries.
this was what I was looking for, a. practical demonstration of how hard 1234yf is to light . would like to see if it lights with a lighter and if it does, will it stay lit when lighter is removed?
Maybe not flammable under ideal conditions, but what about when it's mixed with compressor oil under high pressure and hot ?? Who ever came up with this idea of using flammable chemicals under high pressure exposed to high voltages and hot oil, needs to have his head examined ! I'm sure the fire department thinks this is a brilliant idea ! 😂 👍
100% agree. Idiotic and unnecessary. Just increase efficiency of equipment has the same result without the safety, fire and explosion concerns. Here's one example from Asia ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tYKY5IdV-1c.html
where is R-32 refrigerant flammability test ? R-32 refrigerant gas is a mildly flammable (A2L) like R-1234yf refrigerant gas . R-32 it is a new refrigerant gas for home and commercial air conditioners . R-1234ys it is a new refrigerant gas for cars air condition . That is the only difference . R-32 was designed and engineered by Daikin (Japan) . R-1234yf designed and engineered by Honeywell (US) .
Consider you cant even light R32 with a blow touch i find the need for it lacking. people go around saying, STAY AWAY FROM A2L, IT BLOW UP, BURN HOUSE DOWN bla blabla BLA. We take R32 as example, the most commonly used R410A replacement. (Note that R410A is 50% R32). You need LEAST 300 gram in a 1 m3 area, with the gas pouring our no faster then 7 cm3/s, and a ignition that is over 650 Celsius. Largest AC unit for house use, a 8 kW machine, has 1.6 kg of R32 in it. unless you live in a Chemical warfare bunker with no ventilation, i find it HARD to believe you can even get the 300g per m3 covered to even start the fire. R32 is safe to use. in AC units. unless you consider VRF system but thats another story.
Interesting and how pissweak about the R134A you have the floor. The Hydrocarbon performs better than your R134A. Lets release 300 Grams into a car or tractor cab and see what happens. What was the ration we were taught at schools 17 to one or 15 to one.
@@rebeccadonoghue8993 R290 = Propane (Used in gas grill and some cooling machines) R600 = Butane (used in lighers and some larger freezers or refrigerators). R600a = Isobutane (most commonly used for freezers or refrigerators in homes) R170 = Ethane (Never seen it used since the other 3 works better).
