Re the movement Mr Crispin, remove the pads etc from beneath the machine, drill a hole for each mounting point and install anchors into the concrete. Where there's no safety consideration (such as with a hoist etc) the epoxy in threaded rod type are excellent. Once the anchor bolts have cured wind on a thin nut and place a washer on, then place the machine on top of those. Wind the nuts up and down as necessary to level the machine and then a nut and washer on top to secure the whole thing in place. Now grout under the machine to take up any surface inconsistencies and fill the gap. The issue you're seeing is simply the result of inertia. The table and job are coming to a somewhat sudden halt then accelerating in the opposite direction. The force required must be carried by the machine and when you apply a force to a mass you get a corresponding acceleration. A bump. By solidly attaching the machine to the concrete slab etc you effectively increase the mass of the machine by orders of magnitude with a corresponding decrease in acceleration. If you're concerned about the grout sticking to the machine or floor, put a layer of plastic between the grout and the surface you want to protect. The same deal applies with vibration reduction. Increase the mass, reduce the effect of vibration. The bigger the mass you attach the grinder to the better.
What a great time I had seeing and hearing the sounds that I am so familiar with in the 540. I did my apprenticeship at J&S and built them and its units on the 540 flowline at Leicester. Knowing every screw, knobs, components all the methods of assembly brought back unforgotten memories. I started a face book page for all the hundreds of shipies experts still out there. Were losing a few sadly each year now but the legend lives on with guys like you. Thankyou.
Crispin, someone was having you on about the the pump ROTOR. It is an AC motor, Soft Iron Rotor with the Stator ( coils ) providing the magnetism. Great outcome.
Hi Crispin, well done on the logistics, well planned and managed. Cracking paint job on the extractor. One insanely jealous viewer here, I learnt on one of these in my apprenticeship, they are the best of the best, brilliant addition to your shop. Cheers, Jon
If heavy machine has three feet it should be stable but it looks like it is rocking. So with the rapid change in centre of mass when table moves either the machine is rocking off its feet or (and I think more likely from my lounge chair at the other side of the planet) the cork material is compressing under changing load.
Congrats on the new surface grinder! My 'new' surface grinder is still in the garage 4 years after I rescued it from a manufacturing facility in Connecticut, USA. All original paper work that looks like new and all of over 60 years old!
Well... It's just an induction motor. Permanent magnet servo's might be a different thing. Either way I would not worry about it too much. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5tV2W-i8YGI.html
I read the thing to do is to level the machine up, then bolt it down and use cement to grout beneath it. J&S also said the foundations under the machine should be around 2 feet thick !
I agree with Alex's earlier suggestion that it needs bolting down. I have issues with the shaper if it isn't fixed to the floor. The method I would pursue is 'bedding' the 4 corners to the floor with an epoxy compound and then fit 4 pieces of threaded bar through the fixing points and set them into the concrete with masonry fixing adhesive (Mason mate) or similar. When the fixing adhesive has set ,usually 40 minutes, tighten the nuts down on all 4 pieces of fixed threaded rod. If your using a system with bonded in threaded rod you can also concoct a levelling/jacking arrangement using half thickness nuts under the machine base. Bolt the bugger down😂
Spot on. We always bolted them down. As the table traverses, there is large weight shift of the table beyond the feet. You are missing a long bent handle scraper to scrape the swarf from the bottom of the coolant tank.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises good, if I remember correctly, you scrape the bottom of the top tank and as you pull it towards you, the swarf drops into the bottom tank off the knee breaker bit :)
Crabtree isolator switch on dust extractor - is the wrong thing. It should be a motor starter - for the simple reason the latter offers much better overload protection for the motor.
Hei mate! Nice acquisition, wish you to grind happy and free from issues for many years! About the rotor of your pump... who told you about losing magnetic properties... or demagnetize the rotor if you hold it out for long time... was for sure making joke with you. Never hear this nonsense...:-) but make me smile... so it was a good one! That is a short circuited cage rotor (or armature how Ron also say) that get induction from the stator, there is no permanent magnets there at all.
@@millomweb Well actually there is an element of truth is this. Waaay back before windows when we used microsoft DOS with the very early generation of hard disks/drives (instead of a pc with two floppy drives). We were advised to enter the dos command "shipzone" before powering down, this command move the harddrive wiper to the safe shipzone otherwise the wiper just dropped onto the spinning platter if power was cut. Dont know about warping disc but data was lost.
@@gregwmanning It was 'PARK' here - to park the HD heads prior to powering down. That was at college with RM machines. Never used it at work. No need to park heads on a power reboot. There is a chance of data loss if rebooting while the disc is being accessed - and that's down to bad software design.
To take out the rock from the macine you will need to "preload" the fixation corners. Drill a hole in the floor for every each fixation, put there a chemical anchor, (hole must be deep minimum 8 tilme of the anchor diameter) let it set for minimum 24 hours and after this tight the nuts of the anchors to compress the rubber close to how much is compressed when the rock movement take place. Or... you can run the machine and tight the nuts small amount from corner to corner until you feel no movement under the nuts of the anchors.
Hello Mr. Crispin, Interesting video, thank you... Looks like you have a very nice surface grinding setup now, I look forward to seeing more surface grinding action in the future. Take care. Paul,,
Hello chap. Great video. Your talk of machines being top heavy and prone to toppling brought back one particular nightmare for me. My Harrison milling machine was delivered to me by a pallet service. The driver turned the steerable wheel of the pallet truck through 90 and tried to pull it to manouvre the machine, in the back of the lorry. In that position the steerable wheels acted like a perfect hinge, precipitating the machine over onto it's side. Fortunately the only damage was a squashed Square D reversing switch for the power feed. I still have nightmares about it though.
@@carlwilson1772 My milling machine (Alexander Master Toolmaker, basically a copy of the Deckel FP1) arrived on a pallet and I couldn't watch, for exactly this reason. Fortunately my driver was more adept than yours...
I wouldn't worry too much about an induction motor demagnetizing. There are no permanent magnets inside one of those, the fields are all induced by the current flowing through the stator. One of the more clever inventions by Mr. Tesla.
Let me preface this question by stating that I know absolutely nothing. How important is the slight tremor at the table extents? The wheel would not be in contact with the work at the moment of direction change so all should have settled by the time grinding begins again? Obviously I am missing some rather important criteria.
Hi yes I think you raise a good point. The issue is that in grinding all the small things add up to cause problems. The concern would be that when it shakes that the axes move slightly as perhaps put more of a cut on ect.
Great video as always! Thanks for allowing me to be the fly on your shop wall. As a side note I appreciate the censorship my 6 year old also enjoys your videos, he just does not realize it yet.
Is it intentional that the thumbnail photo looks like the alien robot overlords have landed and are taking a look around? Congrats. Very interesting video.
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I was intrigued by the blue machine ID label (MC 5505) on the old J & S 540. This looks very similar to the labelling that Rolls-Royce use to identify their machine tools. I have recently retired from RR (Hucknall, Notts) and one of my last projects was to procure and install a new waterjet cutting machine. After the installation and commissioning, I had to apply for the official RR MC number so the machine could be logged onto the machine tool database. This number had to be quoted when requesting any maintenance or repairs.
Try smaller pads under the feet and if you don't want to bolt it a a thin film of epoxy paste between each shim. The larger the surface area as you have now, the greater the chance of movement. Think of it as high heals shoes, lots of pressure on small given area = less effect of floor uneveness.. Lots of luck!
Small point on accuracy..... Is that mustache .005 mm of off centre? Maybe some Hilti or "Chemfix" bolts or similar with twin nut / washer nuts to secure the grinder in position.Then grout the underside with high density grout? Looks like the issue is with uplift due to enitia on the video? Not compression of the mountings. But, dont let an old retired fart of an engineer send you in the wrong direction. Stay Safe mate. Ant, Cid & the pooch crew.
Mr Crispin. Thanks for your interesting video. In my “ideal” workshop equipment list I have included a surface grinder. It looks more difficult than I had imagined but nevertheless a useful machine once set up. To take out the movement of your machine I see the base has holes through which you could put bolts to fix it firmly to the floor. I can’t see whether your floor is concrete or timber sheet but if concrete would be ideal. Cheers.
When painting the red oxide coat we should have had "Anchours Away" playing in the background. P&S blue looks like RAF blue so maybe the "Dam Buster's" theme would have been appropriate. As to stopping the machine twitching I would think being firmly bolted to the floor would stop it. 👍🇨🇦🍌🇺🇦🕊️🤔🇬🇧🤞
Generally I prefer to move machines by myself, then I can take my time and evaluate what needs to happen. I've had 'help' before which resulted in a machine on its side. I think the biggest thing I moved by myself was a 1 tonne lathe bed using a pallet truck, chain hoist and engine crane. With regard to the grinder would the old method of grouting it to the floor and bolting help
12:25 Demagnetising the rotor - I think someone's winding you up there - Pretty sure rotors are not magnetic. I believe the field coils create a magnetic field which induces a current in the rotor which then reacts with other field coils to create a pair of magnets which then repel/attract each other causing rotor rotation. No permanent magnets in use. Permanent magnets are used in some DC motors for the magnetic field - and I'm not particularly aware of the need for a 'keeper' for those either.
Pssht whatever. it gets tricky to get in... I brought my grinder down to my basement shop by myself! Admittedly I did have one hiccup with an eye bolt and a chain hoist that sent the base down the stairs at me. I got hands on it but wasn't crushed... Whew!!! I have do e this before mine you, two lathes and a horizontal mill all solo. Not having a pallet jack I'd have to lay down some wood or aluminum diamond plate and drag it along with a winch. Keep the winch in mind next time. They actually work great!
I usually take a bit longer moving machines about. Discussions usually but almost always include numerous pints, a pub lunch, more pints, a BBQ, more pints, etc. If you work really fast, you can do it all in 2 to 3 days
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RldfmpmzlgY.html - that is an A.C. induction motor, except the shaft itself, the rotor does not contain any "magnetizable" material...it contains only copper bars and aluminium. great job with the new surface grinder !!!
I have a hydraulic 8x18 B&S surface grinder...it sits on four 6" diameter adjustable isolator feet..it also rocks a bit at the end of stroke depending on the feed rate. It's a little annoying, but it doesn't seem to affect the accuracy. My opinion is that the rock settles out well before the wheel re-engages the work. It also helps that its a very rigid base casting. Maybe a higher durometer rubber would reduce the movement a little more, but at least it's not walking itself out the door.
Yes I think you raise a good point. I'm going to have a look at the hydraulic valves as I have been told I can soften the speed at which it changes direction.
Part way through enjoying this video I remembered that tomorrow I have to move a BCA Jig Borer into my workshop and lift it onto a bench. Without any help other than ingenuity, improvisation and a 5 foot tall girlfriend who isn't very strong. It was at that point I started to enjoy the video a little less....
Someone is pulling your leg. There is no magnetism in rotors of asyncronous motors when no power is applyed. Nothing will happen if you leave rotor outside of stator for any amount of time. Use 2RS type of bearings in this application if you can. Btw, nice little grinder, great addittion to any shop. If i had floor space.....
with regards to mounting of the surface grinder wobble. when I worked in a powerstation years ago one of the tasks that had to be undertaken was replacing gearboxes on a a coal grinder. the gearbox probably weighed in excess of 15 tons. when it was installed on its mounting pads a dam was fitted around the pads and a mix of epoxy resin was poured in and allowed to cure. The securing bolts were then secured and that was it. Don't recall any problems with wobbly gearboxes.
It appeared to me that the flattened nozzle on the coolant pipe is at 90 degrees to how it should be. I believe the intent is to dispense a flat layer of coolant between the work and the wheel rather than just a round stream.
Absolutely love your video's. Not a machinists, I prefer to play blacksmith (for now). I watched your update from a bit ago and recall that you have several more items to share in the works. I will be patiently waiting as many others will be. You are extremely informative and immensely entertaining! Bravo Sir!.
How old is this machine, and did you change the oil in the hydraulic system??? Even if it looks clean, if it's never been changed the additive package will have been used up. That can cause all types of issues, some of which you describe. If you lived next door it would be relatively straight forward to sort this machine for you, but since I live outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA that's really not much of an option.
I dread to think how many hours of my life I spent using various surface grinders including the J & S 540, possibly only exceeded by the hours spent using a Bridgeport milling machine or Colchester lathe.
The coolant pump motor is an induction motor and has no permanent magnets. I've had motors of its type diassembled for months and they were fine when reassembled. That "perforated ring" is called a tolerance ring. It may be factory or it may be from a previous repair. The piece of plastic around the shaft is probably a slinger that keeps liquid from traveling up the shaft. The mention of the previous side play coud've caused the rotor to be pulled into the field causing it to draw more current and not turn as fast (you mentioned in the beginning about deceleration). Doesn't look like the dust extractor is capable of handling coolant. Are they mutually exclusive? I have one at work (Kent) where dust extaction and coolant can be used together. Nice looking and well featued machine. I envy your power downfeed. Good luck with it all.
Thanks for the comment, Paul!:) I wanted to note that too. In any case, I had my incredulous moment and had to look twice when Mr. Crispin said: "I was told not to keep this out of the motor too long, because it final can demagnetize". In the case of a three-phase asynchronous motor, especially in the case of a short-circuit cage runner, the magnetic field is generated by the stator, i.e. the outer static windings.The chasing rotation-field (as you said Paul, by induction) of the rotor, which represents a short-circuit (maximum induction) finally creates the torque. The larger the slip, the larger the magnetic flow, which induces an electrical voltage, which in turn causes a current in the rotor with a torque proportional to the slip (or in other words: proportional to the size of the stator vs. rotor rotation-field-asynchronicity. Dear Mr. Crispin: Even with e-motors with permanent magnets, removing them from the engine housing does not cause anything negative ... So as long as one does not do the following: demagnetizing goes perfectly through an alternating field (for example via a magnetic field provided by Mains-AC {=alternating current} ), through fixed blows (with a hammer) that heterogenizes the metal structure again or by heating ferromagnetic materials beyond the Curie temperature ... to name some methods. So, no fear:) Anyway, great entertaining video with many things to learn from. Thank you MrCrispin!:) Math: M_{{\mathrm {Motor}}}=\operatorname {Im}(\Phi I_{2}^{*}) (* for the conjugated complex value of I 2 I_{2}) where the rotating magnetic field \Phi is _{{\mathrm {Rotor}}}=\Phi \ \exp(-j\gamma ). So the proportionality is not linear but of an exponential kind.
Crispin, that's a nice machine. One thing you may want to consider is setting the base on some lead sheet. we did that on a heavy shear and it bedded itself in and was quite stable. I enjoy your videos and hope you keep them coming!
Nice idea, might avoid having to drill the floor. In fact that technique was also used when building granite columns in churches, where a lead sheet was put between each section.
hi there im just watching another of you interesting videos and you sent me into a panic by saying your motor armature may lose its magnetism so iv had to rush out to the shed as iv had my motor armature in the lathe alnight meanig to turn down the shaft to day....job done and the motor still works but it never occurred this could happen 👍
I've since been told by various viewers that that was false information. Apparently that type of motor does not suffer from that issue. Have a look at the other comments.
Nice machine-no doubt you will have a job that needs to be ground!!. That colour looks c,one to what I painted many of my tools with some 60 years ago, and they are still bearing much use. The paint was called Techaloid-not sure of the spelling, but it was used for hand painting car bodywork in the RR , Daimler etc makes. I repainted by hand an MGA fire engine red and the finish was glass-like. I have never since used paint that flowed out so flat, primer, undercoat, top coat and clear finish. Bought in Leeds, my home city. I don’t know if this paint still exists, but it is quality all the way. The finish was far superior to a sprayed finish. Thanks for sharing your machine shop adventures, best wishes from Tasmania 42 South. PS, the paint has lasted along with the Made in Sheffield steel tools, still as the day I bought them. Near impossible to buy tools of that quality and price down under.
I've had a lot of Jones and shipman equipment, I've even been to the factory in Bermingham. Their new easy program stuff was pretty nice at the time. their old 1300 models on the cylindrical grinders were, and still are my favorite manual machines. I'd like to buy another and probably will. I just have about 3000 square foot shop in my back yard now without a cylindrical. I need one. and one of these surface grinders. I've never had one of their surface grinders. I'm going to keep my eye out for one now. Thanks for the video:)
The perforated ring you referred to in the drive end of the coolant pump motor is called a star tolerance ring and is used to produce a interference fit,in this case between the bearing OD and the casing ID. I’ve seen them used before mostly in cheaper machines.
I'm going from long distant memory as far as installation of industrial machines, if I remember correctly, briefly, drill floor to take stud plates, once cured, run flange nuts down, lift machine on to nuts, level, secure with hold down nuts, fill gap between floor and machine. Ancillary equipment is then mounted on insulated feet. Just need a cylindrical grinder and you will be capable of almost any job.
Dead unstable, as Ian said is about right, moved a smaller Herbert grinder into my workshop myself on Friday, with an engine hoist from the back of me Land Rover, they want to pivot in ways you can't seem to forsee. It was more stressful than the lathe move... Can't wait for the Milling Machine.
@@smithofthenorth I found one pic of such on an image search. Size-wise, I'd class as 'big amateur' - but then size-wise - it's what you have space for ;) I might just about have space for a really small mill if I got rid of our large mill ;) As it is, I'm having to walk on top of stuff that's on the floor !
In my experience it would hurt it as the wheels have enough weight over them to make them sink and then you get stuck. You could however use sand under a thick piece of plywood for getting over certain obstacles or terrain.
Excellent machine the J & S 540. If pos the P version unless you enjoy a workout if you have to move the head up an down any distance. I have one of the unfortunately named Elite AR5E tool and cutter grinders which also doubles as a manual surface grinder. Unfortunately I really don't have enough room in my workshop for a 540 much as I'd absolutely love one. I love it when I hear about someone rescuing a machine like this, good work Me Crispin. Oh, and we're currently moving a Moore No1 jig borer which our friend Les kindly donated to us to our other unit.
Try using pieces of side wall of a old car tyre under the machine. Use square peices about 4" x 4". Tyre side wall is tapered and can be placed further under the machine or out from under the machine to achieve leveling. Don't use any steel, the machine will slide on the steel when it is running. The weight of the machine will settle into the peices of tyre wall over time and become firmer.
There are no permanent magnets to disturb on the rotor of an induction motor. The rotor has internal electrical circuits to produce the magnetic fields by induction from the outer stationary field coils. Does physics on that island work differently than over here in the states? Just kidding, I love watching you work
I only find that many rollers to be of benefit when the bottom on the machine is flat. When the bottom profiles have steps and lugs multiple rollers become troublesome to keep on top of.
Nice pick up, MrCrispin. I found this video because of the J&S 540. I have a 1969 540P that is a pleasure to use. It took a bit of work to get it converted to 60 Hz power, which involved some rewiring and new sprocket for the hydraulic pump. I think making the sprocket was the most satisfying task! Nice job on the paint work, looks like a perfect color match. Cheers from Florida’s Space Coast.
at the end i thought you were gonna turn it into John Cleese's greatest acceptance speech of all time, also you forgot to thank the "royal society for the prevention of birds"
Good evening Mr. Crispin, If the machine is properly shimmed to the floor of the shop, hardwood shims at the least, better, steel. Might have to bolt it down. Wish I was there to help you move the machines. I enjoy doing those things. Thanks for the new video. Best Wishes, James
Fairies can take on the same task because there are NO permanent magnets [1] in an "asynchronous motor" (or more known as "Induction motor") existent. Especially not with a "Squirrel-cage rotor". Try looking it up, for example under the same topic on Wikipedia. It's a fascinating read and physics behind (which means it is a rabbit-hole, hehehe ) Also see the other comment on the topic, if you like: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RldfmpmzlgY.html&lc=Ugy-hU49K8TxbcBRXSx4AaABAg (Edit: This is too much for RU-vid's technology **facepalm** ... you maybe have to copy the link by hand and put it in the browser bar manually. I double checked my comment and landed only on the video page. The copy & paste method worked). [1] which means: there is nothing that can be demagnetized
Mr Crispin, Good day. Mayhap a refresher in Newtonian mechanics is in order. Regarding inertia, center of gravity and balance, I will begin at the end and work back. Your surface grinder has a large component of dynamic loading which effects a continuous change in center of gravity ( CoG). When the bed is at its far left limit, the CoG is shifted to the far left. At this point, the machine accelerates the bed to the right. The " opposite but equal reaction is the rest of the machine being pushed to the left. This left inertia then acts over the lever that is the distance from the bottom of the bed to the floor. This amplified moment of inertia wants to go somewhere. And the antivibration pads you've given the machine are squishy. They are designed to allow movement. And move they do. The proper way to effect what you are trying to do is MASS. Lots of it. Thats why engineers layout laaaarge cubes of cement as machine foundations to deal with this. Cheers
As somebody has pointed out already there are fixing holes in the base, you may also find that when the table changes direction the machine base is sliding on the steel plates, remove these and let the machine settle for a while on the packing and then run the machine,
Nice machine, I have a standard 540, I like my machines leveled to aid set ups and ensure even loading on the feet and reduce stress. For the J & S 540, I manufactured some fine threaded inverted top hats, and jacking screws to 3-point castellated pads. Good idea on the anti vibration material. Unless using full stroke of the double ended table cylinder, there is a little cushioning on the direction change. Would love your powered model. Excellent as per usual, thanks for sharing. Best regards from the Black Country.
I suggest you consider bolting the machine down, the flexible bedding material will then be preloaded and resist further compression by inertia.lets see what others recomend.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Unfortunately much too far from Switzerland, I hope you find someone local who rebuilds that cute machine. Has a good size for rebuilding, too, since most parts still fit on normal milling machine and no 1000mm+ straight edges are needed....
Try bolting it to the floor it usually works for us , our problem was a round head Colchester turning Chuck to tail stock two inch steel plates bolted to the floor and the lathe bolted to the plates
Hi, good to have you on board. The actual bed of the machine is just T slotted just like any other machine bed however what you can see here is a magnetic chuck that is bolted to that bed. So for all in tense and purposes yes the magnetic 'bed' is used to hold the job. Not always directly however ......it is common to hold workpieces on angle plates or vices that are then stuck down to the magnet. Cheers.
