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They would roll the web of the hand up underneath the grip safety. Pinching it , By rolling the web down, and underneath between the thumb and index finger, they'd get a really tight one handed grip. An old S.O.G. guy taught me this trick! He'd also been in WW2, Korea and Vietnam! He spent time training at Gunsite , and would wear a train railroad engineer's cap!
@Coch I was a mechanic in the Army. And I got REALLY lucky one day when I was helping my units armorer clean out the arms room. Moved a M4 rack and behind it covered in dust was a leather 1911 holster. Leather flat stamped with the US and circled like you would see on old Civil War Union belt buckles. I asked if I could have it and the guy was happy to be rid of it. Took it home and cleaned it up. I doubt it ever saw much use as it was in seriously great shape. I now use it to holster my Sig 1911. Maybe someday I will find a government issue 1911 that isn't a fortune to put in it lol. But yeah I remember the green canvas holsters from back in the day as well. But I gotta say the black leather flap holster just feels amazing to carry a pistol in.
My Dad was a vet of WWII, Korea and Vietnam. He told me In combat you learn to bring your weapon on target without aiming. Your weapon becomes an extension of your pointer finger. You point your finger at the target and you shoot. And then adjust if you miss. It becomes second nature. The person who starts shooting first usually wins. Your sights are for when you have time and the enemy is far away.
My dad was Post WW11 British Special Forces, late 1950s, went on to serve with Rhodesian and South African Special forces. From An Early Age I was taught hand eye coordination techniques. One of them involved closing eyes and getting tip of both index fingers to touch tip to tip successfully. I went US military and then US Law enforcement. these techniques came in handy using sim rounds. I could sprint down a hallway 60ft (thereby mitigating fatal funnel) enter a room, still at a sprint, come to stand still, pivot and shoot instructor in the forehead from the hip, from 5-6ft away. all within 4-5 seconds using these exact techniques. They were devised for a reason; on one instance it saved my life and others in Iraq. Your dad was a badass by the way.
Yes, point shooting is how I practice all my close-up defensive shooting, it works extremely well if practiced, does you well for those low light conditions also. For me using sights is for target shooting, or hunting, in a high stress adrenaline fueled gunfight you’re not going to try precision sight shooting, it’s just plain old common sense, if you do try to use precision sight shooting you’re likely to get killed or wounded. Anyway, that’s my humble opinion.
Here in GA I swear half of the attendees(slight exaggeration but felt like it sometimes) of our pistol courses, beyond basic saftey, were army that never got real pistol training.
@@siege2928 That true. Im 63 retired LE , my dept. had SHIT handgun training. I went and got it on my own with my own $$$$$$. Fasr forward and my oldest son and I went shooting with a friend of his who was former Army. I had to give the kid some quick and dirty reminders on how to shoot an AR, let alone my glocks!! Kneeling position, he would raise his support foot up off the ground onto his toes and was rocking back and forth slightly and not hitting squat.
The “Yippy KiYea” or Han Solo is when you quickly turn and shoot like James Bond opening the high hand is a counter weight to stabilize yourself when quickly spinning/ turning, it actually works. Dorr was doing it wrong. It’s ok I did too, and mocked it also, until I figured it out, a lot of this stuff is dead Latin. It would be cool to see a Collateral movie technique too.
I've always thought that it's pretty natural if you're set on using the pistol one handed. It's like a modernized fencing lunge, with a 1911 instead of a sword. My first experience shooting was one hand Olympic style and honestly the 1911 has a better grip angle for that style than modern pistols, everything just lines up and to me that's what really ages the pistol to its time
What I find interesting about these old video’s is that they are point shooting and are being trained to point shoot….and they’re good at it. Compared to today when you hear people say you need to find your sights even at three yards. Being an old guy I would say each person needs to know at what range they can no longer point shoot and need to use the sights. If you can’t make point shooting hits on an FBI target at five yards you really need to practice it. Excellent; thanks!
And why wouldn’t every serious shooter want to learn as many methods as they can - you may certainly prefer some methods (or better yet the results you get from some methods) over others, but there is no such thing as too much training/learning.
I agree, I think its very much like instinctive archery. You dont aim in a way you can explain so much, it just feels right. You draw the bow reach your nock point it feels right, let it fly.
@@hawkinatorgamer9725 yeah ive heard people say to be really accurate with a traditional bow or non professional level, you aim as you draw and release when you get fully drawn
I practice point shooting all the time. In my house that’s likely how it’s going down and in a CCW it’s also up close and personal. Point shooting is faster.
The pistol differences make me think of just how different we were trained with rifles back in the day too. I remember the first time seeing the c clamp grip and being all confused wondering, why the heck are these guys not using their sling😄
I always reference learning how to drive. First you learn the "right" way like keeping your hands at ten and two, then you can adjust for you. Shooting is no different.
I was in Navy and became a cop during the 60s and that's the way we used hand guns. Get grip in the holster with finger on trigger, draw and punch out. The trick to the crouch is to learn how to make sure your forarm was always parallel to the ground. The high position was called natural point and you actually looked throught the weapon with both eyes open. We did all types of non aimed training for different scenarios back then. I know since i was not only trained that way but was an instructor 😎 thanks for the nastalgia trip.
I like that you gentleman have respect and don’t talk down about those long gone fighting men. Many times the “tactical” guys on RU-vid dismiss anything that they deem as old fashioned…
i mean they definitely got the job done back then, but any of the techniques used in this video are bound to get you killed in modern combat. It’s changed an absolute fuck load since the world wars. One handed 1911 might work when everyones rockin bolt actions and dying from trench foot, but it wont work in 2023 when everyone has ARs, body armor, and night vision
my Grandpa stormed Iwo Jima took shrapnel to the neck & fought on with a destroyed voice box, some sulpa powder & a blast a morphine, had more great Uncles then you could shake a stick at & the ones who made it back were all men who left giant footprints, them kids mocking them aren’t fit to shine their boots
Just remember, 90% of the “tactical “ guys on YT and infesting all the shooting ranges have probably never seen combat let alone actually shot someone. They left out the old footage of the trainees point shooting the moving target. Personally, I think that’s more impressive than someone using two hand and a holographic sight.
People don't like to hear it and I swear I'm not out to start any fights, but we haven't seen a real test of our warfighting for several generations. Even Vietnam was not like a direct, total war confrontation between ALL major European powers at the peak of their technological acceleration. That is different than picking off goatherds and I don't care how anybody dresses it up. Ukraine is closer than we've been in a while but it's still not even close to the same class of thing.
Col. Applegate advocated raising the pistol..not shoving…and shooting at eye level. His technique was a refinement of Fairbarne’s 3/4 technique at chest level..as…Shanghai Police were often ambushed at extremely close range…. Applegate also said to “shoot through the pistol”…later Jim Cirillo would develop the “silhouette” technique…today it is called “shooting through the back plate”.
Keen observations show you have given this serious study. Those descriptive phrases in quotations are gold. A lot of people know the names of those great instructors but now we know some of their carefully chosen words that communicate great concepts. Thanks 7N6!
I also studied Applegate's videos on purchased DVD's from Paladin. His training is that we grow up learning to point things out with our forefinger. By placing the gun in the proper grip, which you guys showed, when you swing the gun up, you are basically putting the gun in the same place as your extended index finger and at 10 yards or less, you're gonna hit what you learned all your life to point at. The states not to punch the gun out as the movement combined with the weight of the gun can cause the shoulder alignment to round down causing the low shots. Great video in bringing tried and ture ways back!
I studied Applegate, because the techniques worked. You didn't always have much of a team or any team left to back your up, but you still had to clear the space and get to and have ammo for your rifle. Remember this was done without body armor! Cooper in my opinion was a great self promoter. To this day be it a handgun, my M4 or my M1 Carbine, if you're close, (40 yards for my rifle, 15 yards for my handguns) I should not need my sights, if I do I practice more. Of course I have a double stack 1911, shooting45 Super, a striker 9MM+P and a striker fired 357 Slg. They were changed only for more power not the way I shoot in close. However when used with moder techniques they're much more effective against armor.
I’m a retired Army veteran former Infantry. I carried a M1911 and practiced with it both hands Weaver stance. I also practiced one handed with both strong and weak hand. I had no problem hitting targets with my weak hand. We used timed pop up targets at various ranges up-to 50 meters. I also started training with the Col Rex Applegate’s method. It’s something that worked in the past. The FBI adopted his method and used it for years. People stopped because the two handed method was started in competition with Jack Weaver. He beat everyone. But targets at a competition isn’t combat. I drill with the Kill or get killed method to get off the first shots and transitioned to the Weaver stance if more shots are needed if I haven’t already got behind cover first. I learned shoot and more get out of the open and behind cover. Cut the BS and theory. Hitting targets fast and all for competition isn’t combat. Practice marksmanship. Quick fire drills. But practice with simunitions or air-soft even paint gun in realistic scenarios. Use all the techniques that work for you and see how it comes out. ,
K38 target masterpiece was my first and favorite handgun (1966 when I became an NRA and Michigan Hunter safety instructor). Handloaded wadd cutters at 25 yards almost always in the black.
i play onward which is obv not real combat but the same principle kinda applies. when you get rounds down at the target first the other guy usually starts to panic a bit and the return fire is frantic at best. i don't know if that principle applies to targets in cover nearly as well though. at least in game if the guy is hiding behind something his return fire is always more scary than if you catch him in the open. in a video game/shooting range/airsoft you dont have any real fear of death though. kinda wish there was a way to accurately simulate how that will affect the results.
I tried the old FBI one-handed style (aka Han Solo) and was shocked at how well it worked, but the key was the counter-balancing hand extended behind you. As soon as I moved that hand anywhere else my instinctive aim got thrown off. Wouldn’t say I’d recommend it over modern techniques, but still, the old guys knew a few tricks.
Instinctive shooting and point shooting really works. It take some practice, but it works really well. Dick Thompson is one very rare real life larger than life person that came home alive from southeast asia that trained extensively on it in country and practiced it for missions in and across the border.
In my national service, we practiced point shooting to the extent that all of my class could hit extremely well at 50 meters. A quarter of a century ago.
Wild Bill was a point-shooter, which is why he could win so many gunfights, he didn't need that extra split second. He never did take a bullet to the front. I can do it fairly well at close ranges with my revolvers. The number 1 hurdle is trusting your instinct. I would guess some people could learn it in an afternoon and others would take 1000hrs. Because it isn't a physical barrier but a mental one.
come to think about it, I have never really tried point shooting at the range, though when I play airsoft I point shoot almost more than I take aimed shots with my pistol. I really only go to my pistol for the plywood buildings throughout the field, even on days I could point blank with my rifle, I think it's just nicer to use a lower powered pistol on someone than point blank them with a bit more powerful rifle (400 fps rifle, 300 fps pistol, it's not much diff really, but I feel the pistol stings less). that means that often the other players are within 10 feet, sometimes less, and point shooting is really the quickest way to do it. Mind i'v got a holosun dot on my pistol to mimic the dot I have on my real one (P320/m17, delta point pro and surfire on my real, holosun and olight on my fake) Hell one time a gun truck was coming at the point I was helping guard and I had set my rifle down, there was a guy with a PKM in the truck shooting at everyone and I just pulled my pistol and swung on him with 2 shots, and hit him. Def largely luck but it worked.
This makes sense now. I used to go to an indoor range and they had a used target up on display where the entire center area was shot out. And I asked about it and they said it's one of their regular customers, he's an old guy who hip-fires a 1911. He doesn't even have sights on it at all. They said it was so odd but he ALWAYS shot like that and he'd stand there, crouched, hip-firing a 1911 without sights all day and that was what his target would look like after. Crazy.
I was a USAF security policeman in the early 70s. I remember shooting one handed, turning my body to the side to become a smaller target. We hit our targets, at further distances than they do now. S&W M15 combat masterpiece 5" barrel, blued revolver, 38 special, 130 gr fmj.I want to say again, we did not miss. We only carried 18 rounds.
Single or double action pull? I mostly used wheelguns back in the 90s but it took years before I was confident enough to switch over to double action pulls almost exclusively and I did that with two hands. When I did one handed duelist stance, I always cocked the hammer back before firing. Were you able to run it double action side on?
Different styles of shooting. Stand sideways and take your time like ya’ll did back in the 70’s. Then try it shoulders forward and running. It’s not as “bullseye” accurate but it’s real.
I learned to shoot on a 4" blued S&W K38 Target Masterpiece that my dad had purchased because it was almost the same pistol that he carried in the USAF in the 60s & 70s. It is still my wife's favorite gun. I absolutely believe your statement, "we did not miss." We practice engaging small targets at 25 yards, two handed supported, one handed, and variations, both double and single action, with very tight and accurate groupings. Although I now prefer the 1911 and the heavier S&W J-frame revolvers, that K38 is still probably the best balance of size, weight, and power, for effective use by the broadest range of shooters. You (and I) were blessed with a great pairing of training and craftsmanship.
I have a 1911 that went through both WWs with my great granddad and then with my granddad, and ultimately passed down to me. The natural pointability is simply amazing. The sights, not so much, but I believe the gun’s natural pointability made it astonishingly “accurate” for startled type shooting at close range where sights really aren’t used… even in modern close-quarter engagements. Honestly, inside my house, that ole 1911, that’s still functional, feels better than my most modern 1911s and 2011s! Now, at further ranges, not so much with those tiny sights, lol. Much respect to the men who fought in those wars!
I have a ww1 1911 made in 1918, refinished for ww2. I'v outshot people with that 100 year old gun (which im fairly sure has the original barrel due to markings) and their fancy modern 1911's with fancy target sights a few times. Always funny to me.
If only i could afford to buy a old Colt 1911. I got a Taurus pt1911. The previous owner had the iron sights milled out and out neon rear sight and white dot front sight. And the rear sight would always become loose with a shot or two. I cenetered it as much as possible. Said f it and glued it in place. And i was able to hit targets accurately up to 74 yards. Still practicing.
My dad was a WW2 Ranger and taught me these methods. I was also a personal student of Col. Applegate and have heavily studied these methods. The distances that they were designed for were measured in feet as opposed to yards. The Applegate video used tracers and Applegate told me that they needed about 15 yards to become visible, hence the film’s longer distances.
My grandfather was a Merrell's Maurders during WWII. After getting out of the service I had gotten a job at a very low population county sheriff's office. New to LEA work my grandad agreed to teach me some handgun shooting. He taught me a lot of those techniques you showed. He said in an urban setting you may not have the time to bring your firearm high enough to stop an attacker and sight it before a person can come at you from 40 ft away. The other thing was from his training, and I saw it video, to always fire 2 shots immediately and reassess your level of threat. But by then you are sighted still in an crouched position. I seen the theory of what they wanted, but it all kind of a bit off from what the military taught. Then I went to the academy in Iowa, in the 80's, and they were teaching these practices and part of qualifications was a 10 foot 3 second 3 round hip fire. They only counted 2 of the rounds as you were suppose to use your first round to adjust your fire. The off hand was free to block incoming attacks, most likely a knife attack. Oh by the way I carried a .38 on my patrol and it also watching police videos and them doing un-aimed mag dumps kind of bothers me a lot. Having only 18 rounds total really makes you think about your shot selection. So instead of just wild firing with no regard for whatever is behind your target really is bad. Limited ammo really changes how you proceed in your law enforcement career. But that could be grouchy old man talking too.
So I was taught to shoot by a old school instructor who taught so much of this, it’s amazing. Not so much the focus on one handed shooting, but the focus on the ergonomics, body structure, grip from holster, etc. He developed a sight designed not to be looked at. It was threat focused shooting using his sight in the secondary focus. That was back in the 1990’s. I’m still convinced he was on to something. People used to bash his logic on threat focus and he took a lot of heat, but things really have come full circle. By the way, Shooting to Live is still an interesting read. What’s even more funny was just last week I was discussing with a Police firearms instructor this history of pistol shooting from Fairbane and Sykes, and arguing that this is basically what we are doing. No longer do the front sight focus only bullies have any high ground.
The Channel C&RSENAL made an interesting point in their recent 1911 video and others that handguns were often seen as a point blank, from the hip kind of weapon where using sights wasn’t a consideration at close range. However, an officer who only had a pistol issued might take slow, aimed shots at more distant targets when the enemy aren’t on top of him, hence the fine target sights.
I served with the Indiana State Trooper in the video. And we practiced draw and fire from the hip with our Model 19 S&W .357 in case some perp came out of their car shooting.
I remember watching my father in the Army instructing how to shoot the 45 colt back in the early 60 's that is how he did it He was a WWII , KOREAN , and Vietnam Veteran dad retired in 1967 passed in 2000.
Interesting perspectives on early training-- this is what we were taught in '64. By '72 we were beginning to learn the Isosceles with a tea cup, progressing to the childhood of how we grip today. Thanks for the memories-- I'm sure Chapman and Weaver are chuckling as well.
When I was trained in the Army on the SIG 220, we shot everything one-handed. First we learned to pull the trigger. Aiming only became important later and only at distances over 25 meters. We never used the rear sight and front sight at distances of less than 10 meters. In urban warfare we were taught to offer the smallest possible attack surface. I saw an advantage of this way of shooting years later when ballistic shields were tested and none of the shield bearers hit anything with one hand and without a sight. Even today I often practice shooting with one hand. Shooting with the weak hand and “instinctive shooting”.
I grew up with 1911s. Fell in love with them at a young age seeing them in video games and movies. My very first one was a Rock Island 1911 and it was a tank. It’s got close to 2000 rounds down the pipe with no issues. I’ll be getting a custom Meusoc 1911 built for me by a family friend here very soon, retiring the ol’ Rock Island. In recent years I’ve been getting into the more “modern/tactical” stuff with some friends of mine and I continue to this day to use a 1911. They like to give me flak for it, but I don’t care. I like them, they fit my hands and I seem to shoot them straight
I was in the military in the mid-60s, and as a medic was issued the 1911. One-handed shooting was “what we did”. I was starting my study of combat shooting at the time, and read a lot of this old material, mostly WWII-era techniques including the FBI’s “squat” technique. I started my police career in ‘68, and by then two-handed was the standard, though we always trained to shoot both strong and weak-hand shooting in case one arm was disabled.. Note that it’s only recent that police trainers are starting to go back to “from the hip” shooting for close combat…. Something that Bill Jordan promoted in his “No Second Place Winner” book back in the 60s.
My Dad was in the 508th Airborne Infantry WWII , if I remember correctly he said the hand up shooting was for distracting the enemy. How true it is I am not sure. Always great content from you guys. Thank you all for your service.
The hand up and out was for balance, which wasn't needed when kneeling. What instructors say has nothing to do with reality all the time. I was told by a drill, totally serious, that you take a MBT under fire with a M60 so they take evasive action to give you a good side or stern shot with a LAW..totally ignoring a couple of tankers who told him that if they are under fire from a machine gun they face and advance over said MG..while taking it under fire also.
I'm suspecting they did not keep flipping the safety back then. On the 1911 you have a grip safety, on a revolver you have a heavy/long trigger pull. And they seem to have had a different attitude towards safety back then, and a different view towards liability. Great presentation!
This is true. My grandfather was a world war II army air core drill sergeant and a hunter safety instructor as well as sheriff His idea of gun safety was don't point the firearm whether it's loaded or not at anything, you do not wish to destroy. End of story always treat a firearm as if it is loaded And if you do hand it off to another, make sure it is unchambered and it is clear in the breach.. I made this mistake when I was about 6 years old and my grandfather broke my finger with the butt end of a 30-06. Although the alternative would have been, I would have accidentally shot my sister. Therefore the punishment fit the crime And the lesson was never forgotten Yes, their attitude to gun safety was much different and it was common sense that everybody knew. How do I actually use and hold and proficiently handle a firearm in the first place now? Not so much. Most people think it's a toy, not a tool and they treat it as such
@@mjolnirswrath23 I saw this documentary about how ww2 era soldiers were trained, one of the instructors said that recruits accidentally shooting themselves in the foot, particularly with handguns, wasn't uncommon, I agree that the perception of modern people being morons is strong but that is just that, perception, I bet people were equally stupid back then, it's just there weren't cameras around to record the aftermath...
@@mjolnirswrath23 i agree with everything but the handing a loaded gun. if you engage safety and tell the person that it is loaded i see no issue with handing someone a loaded gun.
We used to shoot from the hip in a western quick-draw on prairie dogs as they ran by with our 4" 686's loaded with 125 gr jhp. You get pretty good at it and it was so much fun.
As a former 1911 and .357 Magnum revolver owner, I watched this same training video, and my handgun skills got a whole lot better. So just because we have transitioned, doesn't mean that the technics don't still work. As a matter of fact, when shooting modern handguns, I still find some of those same technics helpful as crazy as that might seem. The tea cupping still transitions to combat revolvers and hand grip is super important with proper shooting today.
The Shadow used to use 2 1911 style pistols, and laugh while blasting away bad guys. He carried them in a double shoulder holster rig. I feel this is the way forward.
This reminds me of my dad, he was in law enforcement in the 50 60's and when he taught us kids in the early 70's to shoot it was just like this, teacup and saucer.
I remember reading Fairbairn's book back in the day and trying what he suggested at the range. I sucked so bad back then that I couldn't really tell a difference between those techniques' results and what I normally got! I wonder what they'll be teaching in 80 years that our grandchildren will be chuckling at? Also, now I want to find some pistol tracers!
It’s the contact between the elbow and hip that bring the instinctive consistency. A slight lean to the right, with your elbow on your hip, and you’re basically pointing at the target with your nose over the barrel. It becomes pretty instinctive pretty quick and is significantly faster. Add that in with todays drills… And you’re perforating targets with your first shot as you shoot on the way up to your sightline
I’ve watched some of those OG training films and it’s good stuff! Those dudes were real deal gunslingers. I watch the old school hand to hand stuff as well, very effective even if it ain’t pretty nor fancy!
I’ve looked into this old way of shooting too and when they were trying for 25 yards with one hand, it was more complicated than just shoot it with one hand. It’s very similar to Olympic pistol shooting. You blade yourself to make a thinner target, and your arm ALWAYS stays perpendicular with your body. If you want to aim up, you moved your rear foot back, and if you want to aim down, you move your rear foot closer to your front foot. I tried it and at first it was a little weird but just like any method of shooting, practice enough and you start to realize the benefits of it and also how surprisingly accurate you can be
Interesting. I remember being told about a Vietnam Era rifle training technique, that used air rifles, with the sights removed, to teach similar reaction shooting. I believe that the technique was officially called Quick Skill. But was universally referred to as Quick Kill.
An old school shooting instructor I once knew (ex-police SWAT from the 70-80's) said that when shooting from the hip, you need to imagine the barrel of the handgun as being an extended pointing index finger of your hand. The gun will shoot where that metal index finger is pointing, same as if you used your natural index finger to point at something. Apparently it's the quickest way to learn shooting from the hip / without sights. Of course it only works well at close distances, but that's exactly where it's needed most.
As always good, fun stuff guys. BTW I invested in a Dry Fire Mag for my G45 - love it! Good training tool. And, who doesn’t love a classic 1911 in .45? Sure, there are sexier semi-autos out today, but I love shooting my plain-Jane Springfield 1911 whenever I get the urge.
try out an old czechoslovakian made pre-b Cz75. full steel construction, no gimmicks or doodads, revolutionary slide design, simple to operate and clean, etc. i love cz handguns. 9x19 is cheaper than 45s too.
" Who doesn't love a classic 1911 in .45?" Young arrogant asses that have never used one outside of a video game and just parrot what they have "learned" on social media.
I routinely practice 25%--2 Hand Right, 25%--2 Hand Left, 25%--1 Hand Right and 25%--1 Hand Left, including one hand and opposite hand mag changes. Makes for a fun range day.
I think something a lot of 1911 users tend to forget nowadays is that the 1911 .45 was totally designed to be fired one handed...and I think it's actually EASIER to shoot one handed. When shooting .1911 .45s, especially Commander style or smaller, they get really snappy, and sting a bit when shooting with 2 hands...but go to single hand, and they seem more manageable. Great vid, guys
You have to keep the pistol level , you were tipping it upwards for a few missed shots , keep it level with your forearm and you will hit your target and you will notice less recoil ! Yipee Ki - Yay !!! 🤠👍
Sometimes a 'support" hand has to hold a grenade, knife, nightstick (asp) money bag, walkie talkie (er, cell phone), or a grand child's hand. Maybe even putting pressure on a wound. And the weak hand might have to deploy the sidearm.
The clip after he said they were done with sights. The old footage showed more extension than he indicated. 😂 The man's arm was almost straight, barely a bend at the elbow.
Hey guys I'll give you something to check into on the Old yippee ki-yay. I was told by an old World war II army ranger that the yippee ki-yay as you call it handwaving actually had a purpose. From their testing they believed in a close quarter combat situations where milliseconds counted The raising and waving of the weekhand as you drew or was bringing the gun onto target with your strong arm would distract a lesser trained soldier and sometimes even confuse them to the point where they would lock up watching the hand waving over the head of their opponent. Lol interesting concept for sure. Those were some tough guys, im not judging anything they did.
I have recently re-watched that 1946 training film. In it, the narrator says that for greater accuracy you can use a two-handed grip on the pistol, much like we would advocate today. It seems that they placed value on being able to shoot with one hand or two. The two-handed grip seems to also have been associated more with the prone and kneeling positions than the standing, although the film never explicitly says it could only be used that way. The narrator also states that when the pistol is raised to engage a target, it is brought to eye level, albeit while in the crouching stance you mentioned. This suggests to me they may have been using their sights somewhat, possibly akin to Col. Cooper's flash sight picture.
Really enjoyed this video, thanks guys. Just for interest, if you read Sykes and Fairbairn's Shooting to Live (and I highly recommend you do - free on internet) from the hip was for 3 to 4 yards. So the guys getting good hits from 10 yards is pretty impressive. Although this concentrates on one handed use F&A did also recommend 2 handed use. All interesting stuff. BTW Rex Applegate's Kill Or Get Killed is also available on the internet and is also a seminal work.
Funny thing is I learned a lot of old shooting methods at a young age like SMLE and M16A1 handling. It’s stupid and goofy looking - but it works and helps to understand point shooting, as sights become way better when you understand point shooting. Point makes the gun feel of a sword - a new part of your body. Feel it as a part of you.
That was too much fun! Coch looked like a natural Bad A, Dor looked like a kid having too much fun. But they both said it…it worked! Not the best…but it worked.
Besides the many points & commentary, it’s very important to train shooting one handed & in many different positions since you do not know exactly how you will need to defend yourself. But cool vid
I was taught that while serving in the Marine Corps in the '80s. It is a technique used to get yourself away from the last place that the enemy saw you when you dropped down after contact.
An excellent video 👍 My father was an officer in WW2 and even into his 80’s he was an accurate shot with a pistol, never lost his accuracy. He taught me how to shoot as he called it, by “instinctive aim”, not looking through the sites. So I really enjoyed watching this video, brought back some wonderful memories. Having tried it in more recent times with my Webley MkVI I definitely need more practice 😉
That standing side stance comes from bullseye shooting competitions, but derives from dueling with pistols. The idea was that the bladed stance gave the smallest target while standing. This was important because in a duel you could not move, take cover, or wear armor.
Hey, I recognize the hand! I'm a fencer. when we lunge with a sword, we raise the off hand backwards to stabilize the torso. When you move both hands, you sort of twist the entire torso around the spine/center line. With a single hand, you use only half of your muscles, affecting stability. We also walk like this with certain weapons, this stance is hundreds if not thousands of years old.
Now I want to see someone get proficient with these old school methods and go head to head in a pistol match against someone using modern techniques, be interesting to see how much of a difference the changes in training have made over time with practical data 👌
I've never laughed so hard at a T.Hyve video!!! 🤣 Dorr presenting w/the "Yippie Kayey" stance is pure gold. Informative AND f**king hilarious lol Please, MORE of this.
You might find "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan to be an interesting read. Having been taught to point shoot by people who probably learned from some of these same training videos, you do actually use the sights. You just don't take the time to line them up. With a bit of practice, you bring the gun up until the sights are in your field of view, and they give you fixed points of reference to fine-tune your estimation of where it's pointed. But you don't need to look down them, just be able to see them. It takes a lot more practice to get really good at shooting one-handed, but being able to do so lets you use your off-hand for other things. Not being disadvantaged significantly by carrying something or opening a door is handy. The one minor advantage to the cup-and-saucer grip is that you can use it with any kind of pistol ever built without any risk of getting burnt or catching your hand in the moving parts. And for early semi-autos with potential quality control issues a little pressure on the magazine to keep it in place wasn't necessarily a bad idea either.
If you had to train millions of troops with no to very little pistol expirence thats not a bad way to go. You were lucky back then to get more than a magazine of ammo to train with.
I'd seen that old training film before, cool stuff. It's really interesting to see that the core basics are still there, although we've evolved some of the techniques over time. When I first started shooting, one of the guys at the range I was going to talked a lot about point shooting; practicing that really helped me with my presentation, even though I still tend to look for a sight picture. More recently, having acquired my first .45 1911, I've discovered that I shoot far better with it than with most of my other pistols. I think it's attributable to a combination of the 1911's ergos and the slower, smoother recoil impulse of the .45.
Colt handguns in general point shoot very well. Their revolvers have the best ergonomics, that's a big reason they outsold Rem and S/W by so much in the early days. When you grab a Colt, your thumb is already on the hammer, you don't even have to think about it.
Maybe do some research of the feats accomplished in the west with these same shooting techniques. The idea is to look at the target and point your gun like finger, and since you just naturally point your finger straight at something, that is all you need, just squeeze off your round. You would be amazed at the accuracy, and the speed that such a technique can be employed.
It doesn't hurt that the 1911A1 just points naturally. One thing some of the old point-shoot, LE videos showed was a crouch with the off-arm angled up and covering the chest/heart as there wasn't any real body armor in common use. When I started qualifying in the Army with the 1911A1 in the mid-80s it was on a silhouette target at 25 yards. Always got max score, btw. Then it was pop-ups ranging from close out to 25 yards. I used to just lift the 1911 up to chest level and nail the two closest targets then shift to sights for the rest. Yeah, maxed that too. When we went to the M9 I found I had to use the sights for all the targets. Side note: I hated the M9 because it was 9mm and replaced my beloved 1911. Today, I carry an M9 in a shoulder holster and have an M9A1 with light by the bed. Damn thing does shoot good and Federal HSTs work. Still have a few GI-style 1911s around and they work pretty good too. Fun to see you guys trying some of the old stuff. And as someone else mentioned, Dorr, ya gotta get than hand way out and behind ya like the guy in the old pic. LOL At least training continued to evolve and still does.
I don't go back as far as the 30's, but I was law enforcement in the 80's and 90's and we still learned one hand shooting back then. Mainly it was due to street tactics, more often then not you'd be in a struggle with a suspect and getting both hands on your weapon to line up a shot wasn't a good idea if you were keeping the suspect off you with one hand while going for your weapon. Also at night we routinely held our flashlights off to the side since suspects like to aim at the light, so single hand shooting was a needed skill. One of the techniques we used to get good at shooting single handed was to practice dry firing our weapon (S&W 357 revolver model 686, 4 inch barrel) with a dime balanced on the front sight (dime lays flat across the sight, head side is faced down). If you could dry fire your weapon 50-100 times, you became a pretty good shot as it trained you not to pull or anticipate the shot. It is not easy, but it can be done with a lot of practice, I think my best made it into the mid 90's a couple of times, never broke 100 though.
One day i noticed how accurate wgen the dog was barking. I had a spray bottle set on stream. Yup, right on the bh! 😂 Every time! I started trying it with a pellet gun and a military issue sillouet target. The old blxk ones. Ill be damn, im pretty good hip shooting.
Also , terrain and light conditions lot of these positions make sense when you factor in that they’d be used in almost total darkness with no NVGs or running up hill or through trenches
You guys left out one important aspect that is demonstrated around 16:41: whenever the pistol is in your hand, your finger *must* be on the trigger! Don't wait until you are aiming in. 😨
I agree. You watch tv and movies and they are going into a highly amped up situation with fingers off the trigger. That extra fraction of a second, could mean a bullet through your head, in my opinion. Or they walk into the darkened building with the gun pointed down. To see a threat then having to raise the gun and get the finger on the trigger, bad idea. Also have flashlights on, which tells me you are coming from a long ways away. You might need some light, but blasting a beam down the corridor, lets the bad guy know where you are. - Cheers
It’s kind of like bowling. It’s probably more accurate to walk up to the line, take both hands, and roll the bowling ball from between your legs. But it’s not cool.
Guys, the barrel of a handgun is your index finger, using your index finger point at your target, then pull the trigger. That’s the idea behind these old techniques, like the C grip came from the point the index finger down the barrel CQB technique before vertical forward grips. It’s all point shooting, point shooting is quite literally pointing your “index” finger at your target and squeezing the trigger. Any decent shooter should be able to apply the point shoot technique 10 yards and in pretty accurately. Any weapon is an extension of the body, so if the barrel becomes an extension of the index finger, pointing that finger extension at the target should place your round on the target. If anyone doubts it try it on your home range, you’ll miss some, but with a little practice you’ll hit targets
Video was eye-opening. I used to make fun of the "urban warriors" of Chicago, Detroit, ATL with their Yippee-Ki-Yay stances and hopping/jumping while firing one-handed.....but little did I know.....they were scholars of military tactics.
Let's be honest, we're dealing with the same conflicts and issues our grandfathers did, they're still magazine fed handgun tactics. Get your Han Solo on.
You can actually see Clint Eastwood firing his 44 magnum in some of the Dirty Harry movies With his support hand wrapped around the wrist of the shooting hand. Even in the 70s these techniques were still evolving from tea-cupping.
Super fun. I took a pistol course recently and they made us do a bunch of one hand shooting......really uncomfortable but interesting to learn what worked best.
Well done, boys! Good demonstration. Those early military handgun techniques were entirely legit and effective. Extending the left arm to the side provided more balance for the body and shooting arm. Totally practical technique even if it looks odd.
Check out this profile shot at 8:18. His eyeline is can't be more than 10 degrees above his sightline his forearm is only slightly bent. I doubt he's relying on the sights *very much,* but he's got it a lot closer to his head than what Coch is doing. It reminds me of the notch over the rear aperture style of point shooting with the Thompson. Just a little below the target so you can draw a line with your eyes
Back in the sixties I was camping with an old gold miner in the mountains and the old boy pulled his wheel gun pretty fast from the holster at about 10 yards and put six rounds into a paper plate firing from the hip . I was pretty impressed considering I grew up on westerners.
Again, real world look at the development of combat shooting. Never “my way or the highway” Building and improving where needed but never abandoning the time proven basics.
Fairbairn Was the hardest Bastard In Shanghai . A wee man with glasses , he survived over 300 personal combats Whilst with the SMP . The police carried hammerless 38 colt sidearms in their tunic pocket , modified to his spec A total, true Legend of a Man
I think folks have already pointed it out, but this is practical pistol training. Its not about being pinpoint accurate. Its about being first to put bullets on target. Even if you graze the enemy, itll take their mind off of shooting you for a split second.
