If doing youtube for a year has taught me anything, it's that there will always be a mistake in the videos I make. Unfortunatley, this video is not exception. Turns out Morris Lemma's surname is actually spelt 'Iemma' and is pronouced like 'Yemma'. I was 7 when he was premier, so I'd never heard it pronouced before, and because of how close I and l are, I just assumed it was Lemma, and at no point did anyone correct me during production, or in my many rants to friends about that topic. So woops. If there's a lesson in all this, it's that mistakes can and will happen, and hopefully I don't make the same mistake next time.
The Schofields extension of the North West Metro was apparently blocked by a bus company who had a contract option to run a bus route that the metro extension would have conflicted with. After preventing the metro from extending to Schofields, the bus company chose not to establish the bus route...
Similar to the Ropes Creek line being ripped up when Ropes Crossing was built up. It could have already been the start of the connection from Schofields to St Marys.
Wow, this was definitely your best video yet! I was hooked! It’s fascinating how many railway plans have come and gone over the years. I’m happy that the Sydney Metro West and Sydney Metro Northwest/City and Southwest are getting built after being proposed so many times. (I’m pretty ambivalent/leaning towards disappointed in the WSA Metro.) Out of everything that has been proposed but unbuilt, I’d love to see a north-south line (perhaps Macquarie Park to Hurstville), a Victoria Road line (from Ryde to the city via Gladesville), and a south-east line (likely extending the Sydney Metro West south-east to Zetland and beyond towards Maroubra). One thing that’s abundantly clear from this video is that transport is stained by politics. We need more politicians who care about integrated and well thought out transport plans, not those trying to come up with ways to survive another election.
Thanks! and as like I said in our DMs, I agree with those lines being built. When I do my fantasy map those, or something akin to those will definitley go on it.
Yes because 6 million people will all walk to a rail station that goes point to point and no where near where they actually want to go. Oh wait no they won’t. Which is why they like cars and cars are here to stay despite people living in a fantasy world that everyone is just waiting for a train. I love railways and can see there benefits but there’s nothing worse than someone that seems to be unable to recognise why like cars and they serve as the ultimate door to door transport mode. Trains can never do that. Ever. They are for moving large numbers of people from one location to another location. People that want to do multiple things during a journey, carry things or family will always prefer vehicles. A good transport plan takes everything in to account and accepts all forms of transport.
Fantastic video. Loved the history of it and its shame a lot never got built. Can't wait for another 100 years until we actually get the full story For extensions opions If the metro was expanded past Hunter Street (or whatever they will name it as it won't be Hunter Street), i feel like expanding it to Moore Park and UNSW would be better then going towards zetland. Manily due to zetland is semi-close to rail while both previously mentioned areas would have a far high catchment area of people. As for the otherside of hunter street. All for adding the stops (it should only add like 2mins per stop). And the extension to scofields is like a obvious move to everyone execpt the government. Overall, was really great video
Instead of the terminus at Hunter Street, the line should have connected with St, James station for a cross connection to the City Circle. Centre platforms are there now. The north side stub tunnels already exist
Problem with all Australian cities. They were established and built after the age of trams and buses. So we have a very low population density, even in our inner suburbs. If they were built befor 1800s... We would of had a lot higher density, so we could get better public transportation
Great video! I've never seen all these reports brought together so comprehensively on RU-vid. It's important to understand previous proposals and how they've led to our current situation. P.S Morris Iemma's name is pronounced "Yea-ma", not Lema by the way.
the most comprehensive video ive ever seen on sydney metro, and how we got up to this point, great work, also production was great and im going to go watch all your other stuff now thanks.
Lots of dreamers, lack of money trees.. Also it's Iemma with an I, not Lemma.. but forgive you given age. Pronounced J/Y - emma Interesting all the similarities between various plans and what we have now
That is such an annoying mistake. I've gone and re-checked a few sources about him and they all spell it correctly, so I should have caught it. At least it's not that bad of a mistake...
@@CityConnectionsMediatsk, that feeling you get when you realise you said “Lemma” 30 or 40 times 😬 if it wasn’t such a great video, it wouldn’t hurt so much! Maybe it’ll be buried at the bottom of a great list of 100 newer videos one day, and nobody will know! Anyway you wanted to know about the old “West Metro” 2009 proposal? I collected all the documents off The Wayback Machine, which had 80% of it, when I was making my submissions for the stops in Silverwater (or Newington) in 2016-7. We even had a town meeting where the opposition leader gave a speech supporting the project (and made fun of White Bay as a stop he’d never heard of). It was and is politically remarkable as a YIMBY phenomenon that a stop in Silverwtaer (as long as it’s in the eastern side of the highway) has 98% support of the residents. Fancy building a tunnel right under the local primary school and not providing a stop, when the unique challenges of public transport make it take longer to get to the city than Blacktown. Yes in theory 45-50 minutes, but you always have to allow for 80 minutes. The two closest Sydney Trains stations are, bizarrely, never an option for commuting to the city. And the 3rd closest, Rhodes, is already over-capacity. Metro West and PLR Stage 2 can’t come soon enough. It’s been fun following the paths of the tunnels from early planning stages and comparing to even earlier plans a decade before. When the geotechnical drilling sites showed the locations (including an abandoned idea to cross Holker Street), we came close to a privatised funding of a station at the Newington Business Park. This is when I put the first mapped locations into Wikipedia, back when it showed only tunneling test sites. Alas, the water table around Duck River didn’t work. Speaking of Wikipedia, it’s probably more accurate than you give it credit for, and I can get you the documents if you don’t find it on web.archive.org. The NW Metro was truncated by Nathan Rees to the “Rozelle Metro”, a useless stub project that could’ve expanded in any direction but really lacking ambition. Iemma and Rees’s metro authority had already moved on to being keen on the West Metro by then, even though it never linked to the Rozelle Metro. Kenneally never stood a chance and it didn’t matter that she had no plans, though it gave Berejiklian all the impetus she needed to make her premiers and treasurers (and later her government) stick to its promises. The only legacy of the Rozelle Metro is the abandoned Balmain Tigers Club, a sorry case of property resumption that was never necessary. It’s still in the news lately for having kids set fires in it.
The trains at 35:51 look a lot like Melbournes Siemens trains livery and face. And they were to be 6(?) car sets and Siemens trains to my knowledge run as 6 car sets (2 3-car sets).
35:10 The other thing about Schofields station was that that station was relocated further southeast along the line - i.e. the old one was closed and a brand new one built, along with the upgrading of Schofields Road. But yes, the fact that there seemed to be absolutely zero consideration as to the interoperability between the brand new Metro and the brand new Schoies station is absolutely bonkers.
The Iemma [Read: 'YEM-muh] - Reece - Kenneally era was a dark 16 years of transport hell of promises made and not even tracks laid. They only added to what was several decades of waiting for a train to go through the Hills District. As for the Metro carriages, they are directly based on the MTR trains from Hong Kong, which have longtitudinal seating for maximum passenger capacity that can withstand shorter rides and greater frequency. Unlike the Metro, the HK trains don't have cloth deating however and people can find themselves sliding on the polished stainless steel seats when stopping.
Im a Lonborn lad but lived in Aus since 1972. Onthe tube in London I hace seen during peak hour a train leave the station ans as it entered the tunnel another train would be only a few secons away. Sydney heavy rail is hopeless and worse than it was in 1972. Trains ran faster then. The Sydney Metro is. Bloody brilliant and it has changed Sydney and will continue to do so as new lines happen. Its a bout 100 kph running anf fast acceleration and stopping, this is what metro is about.. The trains by Alstom czn be configured to be third rail 1500DC and 25kv. I think the metro being electrified at 1500 DC was wrong as 25kv is cheaper, ie less copper and fewer substations. I note that the new aieport metro is use 25kv. I feel sad that electric locos are not used in Sydeney any more and i think one of the reasons is the limitations to deliver power at 1500 DC, where as 25kv can deliever way more power . Also the double deck Tulloch cars are the brain child of my late father in law Roy Leembruggen.
Well, I guess in relevance to everything is kinda is. But you're right, I might do a video on a freight in Sydney because I think it's an interesting topic
Hi, I'm thinking the whole 'Western Sydney Airport Metro is wider than other metros" thing might just be people getting muddled. Let me explain: In Feb 2021, the (WSA Metro) Project Business Case Evaluation from Infrastructure Australia said that "The rolling stock presented in the business case is wider than those in service on other metro lines to give more room for passengers and their baggage". They then seem to assume that means it is not interoperable with other Sydney Metro lines. This aspect of the trains being wider is picked up in a SMH article on March 13, 2021. But the same article also says, "A Metro spokesman said that the airport line trains would "technically be capable of running on the other lines" , although it was never intended they would. Huh!!! That virtually a contradiction. Given that one version is coming from a 'generalist' infrastructure evaluation organisation that looks at all sorts of projects, and that the other is coming from the organisation responsible for that project's development, makes me more inclined to believe the latter. So, the big question is when somebody says the trains are 'wider', what exactly do they mean??. Note the exact words used by the infrastructure organisation were "wider than other metro lines'. Worldwide metro lines differ a lot in width, but common sizes are 2.6 to 2.7 metres (at step level). That's in the same ball park as, say, Brisbane's 2.74 metre (four abreast seating) suburban stock. But the current Sydney metros are 'wider' at 3.03 metres; the same as Sydney Trains suburban rolling stock. Note that the latter were deliberately made wider when first developed way back when, to enable comfortable 5 abreast seating. However, NSW country trains were always a bit narrower, (e.g. even today's V-sets are 2.93, XPLs are 2.92 and XPTs are 2.89.), which is probably why they can fit through in a few places where suburban stock usually cannot. Could it be that 'wider' actually just meant 'wider than most metros' but 'the same width as Sydney Metro and Trains'. That would make WSA Metro trains "technically capable to run on other (i.e Sydney) metro lines. Perhaps the whole issue is due to two different organisations making different assumptions about what the other meant + the media thinking they were on to something? Or perhaps it's something more cunning and diabolical, like 'The WSA Metro will be a bit chubbier at waist level, but still the same width at step level". Now I will admit to a bias on this matter. I worked for state government for around 30 years, and I've seen far stranger things happen. However, if anyone has other documentary references about the issue I'm happy to stand corrected. (For example, I can't locate the original business cases sent to Infrastructure Australia) Meanwhile, Parklife Metro and Siemens remain seraphically silent about the width of WSA metro trains. So if, on the inaugural WSA Metro service, you see some creepy guy using a tape measure, you'll know who it is.
no wonder the metro was 100 years in the making!, almost every suburb has a metro station! I guess bus services could have been made obsolete. What happens if suburbs move ?
Excellent video. I like the way you have woven history and politics into the context of decision making. That, and the significance of geography (like issues with any northern beaches link) or their combination (such as the dive under the Lane Cove River, and the 'three cities' and 'six cities' concepts) are often under-appreciated. Great 'big picture' stuff. Very impressed.
14:59 In fact work had started on the quadruplication of the Main North from Strathfield to Hornsby in 1948!! The piers of the "new" Meadowbank Bridge are actually those intended for an additional bridge for the extra two tracks there. Even today you can still see the evidence of the earthworks and widened cuttings for the project around Meadowbank, and also the trackbed of an extra road bridge over Victoria Road at West Ryde. So, what happened? In 1952 along came some British rail "experts" (actually from London Transport) who, after destroying London's extensive tram system, recommended Sydney do the same to its tram system (the original post war Sydney tram plan was to consolidate the system by closing "orphan" lines like at Rockdale, and the Enfield Line). BUT they also recommended cancelling the quadruplication of Strathfield to Hornsby stating that impending electrification to Gosford by 1960 would make it unnecessary. How replacing steam trains with electric trains just on a one for one basis would reduce congestion they never explained. Unfortunately the NSW government followed their "advice". We live with the legacy of a very congested Northern Line today.
The simplest solution to public transport on the Lower North Shore would have been to have kept their trams. I know there was a plan for a heavy rail line through The Spit to Manly-Warringah but the patronage level would seem to be more suited to "light trail". When the Lower North Shore tram system was closed in one hit in June 1958, locals fumed at the replacement crappy, overcrowded, bumpy buses which too often left people at places like Cremorne Junction left behind at bus stops because the buses were full. Their solution? Take to their cars, of course, and they have never gone back to buses. Of course, this great increase in private car use was music to the ears of the then Dept of Main Roads and its successor the RTA, who salivated at the prospect of building more of their beloved expressways for the cars. I reckon that the T4NSW Roads section would be more agreeable to having all their teeth pulled out than having to give back their PRECIOUS (Gollum Gollum) Cahill Expressway to trams.
36:55 London's S8 Suburban Underground sets, used for the longer journeys from the outer suburbs, has a mix of transverse and longitudinal seating. This has earned high praise from commuters using these sets on the longer runs. Why Sydney Metro sets didn't do the same is odd, but then again this is the same mob that has installed the unpopular non-reversible seats on the "new" (5 years delayed into service) Intercity sets. London's S7 and S8 sets are actual normal size trains intended for the Underground lines, not the smaller tube lines. After all, the first steam locos on the London Underground were identical to the NSW 12, 13 and 14 Class locos.
Glad I found your channel and this video! (Shoutout to Sharath and Building Beautifully for that) Love the amount of research and detail in the video! 🙌🏻 Also, the bloopers at the end!! 👌🏻👌🏻
Im mad now knowing that a line between Hurstville and Strathfield was suggested...as someone who goes on the A3 numerous times a week...imagine how less congested it would be.
Fantastic video and a great summary of the 21st century shenanigans that (finally) led to a better rail network. PS it’s iemma - and it is actually pronounced “Yemma”
Loved the video! It goes into the topic in as much depth as you can while keeping it under an hour! Keen to see all the other sub-topics that were brought up in this video in the future! 😁
Thanks for an interesting and informative video. Incidentally, did you know that the ceiling pattern design used in the old single deck red steel train carriages was identical to the design used in the Big Red Cars (Interurbans) in Los Angeles CA USA, which ran there until 1961? just of interest, the Holsworthy line was in use in January 2000, as i traveled on it on an XPT from Melbourne at the time. The reason that we went that way was due to maintenance on the inner western line at the time.
It's not wasted if they get on and build the direct extension to Liverpool giving Liverpool a much faster (~40min) much higher capacity line (30 trains an hour) direct to the city, and the line from Bankstown to Regents Park/Sefton can be converted to light rail and continue up to Rosehill Metro station, it works out much better really.
@@BigBlueMan118 A light rail conversion makes sense, though my thoughts were that converting all the way to Lidcombe would allow for a Metro conversion of the Inner West Line.
@@bigdude101ohyeah Converting the Inner West line to Metro would be difficult due to: -the extremely old platforms and infrastructure (older than the Bankstown line which has caused a ton of problems -the need to segregate it from the other 4 tracks along the Western line -you certainly wouldn't want it to be part of Metro City & Southwest, that would be confusing and wouldn't serve any real purpose -you would need dedicated stabling for Metro trains on the Inner West line especially if you want to run a higher frequency than present (20 trains an hour) You can convert the Inner West line to Metro separately but you would be better off pairing it with the Airport line down to Revesby through the City Circle, which will require shutting down the CC.
A legacy of Bradfield's decision to make the Sydney Underground a part of the rest of the pre-existing suburban system is that coal and freight trains can run through Town Hall and Wynyard and onto the North Shore Line as they occasionally do when the Main Northern Line between Strathfield and Hornsby is closed for trackwork, or by a derailment.
This content is brilliant. Loving the detail and research. Looking forward to more of the same.. ps Morris Lemma. was pretty forgettable as a premier loll😊
2:55 That's not correct, when Sydney Metro City & Southwest opens the EIS states very clearly they will run *at minimum* 20 trains an hour (every 3min) throughout the peak, and 12 trains an hour (every 5min) interpeak with the ability to react to demand spikes by just sending more rolling stock out as they are automatic. The C & SW Metro EIS also states very clearly that the line will have a *reliable* capacity of *at least* 30 trains an hour (every 2min), but this is at far higher running speeds than the New York or London lines achieve running at such close spacing; while other lines that use the exact same tech as Sydney Metro can get 36-40 trains an hour through (every 90 seconds) but operations at those higher frequencies start to become less reliable and operating speeds are slower which the Hay proposal would have also run up against, hence Sydney Metro don't make any guarantees that this is possible or likely. 8:40 Thank God the Bondi Beach extension that was proposed then didn't happen - it was going to be single track which would have risked the reliability on the main Illawarra network and with only a single platform it couldn't handle anywhere near the frequency needed to relieve the bus and surface transport network. 9:56 I'm struggling to see how you would sensibly use the Y-Link line between East Hills and Liverpool, especially when the direct extension of Metro C & SW from Bankstown to Liverpool would bring Liverpool commute times to the City down to around 40mins and there is no way running T8 Liverpool-Revesby-City suburban services would be anywhere close to that.
I probably should have looked into that, I just looked up the schedule and went from there. At least it was just a joke and not a serious point I was making. Tbh, yeah, but I'd still rather have the link be built. It's been on the cards for far too long so it's time to just get it done. Could the C&SW metro achieve that speed? The East Hills line right now takes 40 minutes to get from Glenfield to Central, and that's almost entirely direct with very few stops. I doubt the metro could do it while stopping at all stations. As for the usefulness of the Liverpool Y-link, tbh it's mostly because it'd be cheap, and would allow faster one seat journey's to the CBD from liverpool. It wouldn't neccesarily need to run all that often either, maybe every 30 minutes.
@@CityConnectionsMedia MAybe the Y Link was to create a loop so a train would go Liverpool, Bankstown, Central, TH, Green Sq, Wolli Creek, East Hills, Glenfield, Liverpool and reapeat
@@CityConnectionsMedia Bankstown to Gadigal (Town Hall) will be 31 minutes once Metro C & SW opens. An extension from Liverpool to Bankstown is around 10km, and Sydney Metro achieves an average speed of about 70kmh so Metro C & SW would be *under 40min* from Liverpool to Gadigal (Town Hall). Revesby-Museum T8 all-stoppers, which is the line the Y-Link would extend to connect to, take 40min already. Metro conversion of these tracks might be able to cut that down to 35min or so maybe a bit less. If these trains then make the rest of the stops between Revesby and Liverpool you'd be looking at over 55min potentially more, if they ran express which is hard to justify then you might be a bit under 50min. Quadding the existing alignment isn't that cheap, and taking capacity away from the Macarthur section of the corridor isn't a good idea as this line is already predicted to run into significant capacity problems in the near-term.
@kyletopfer7818 I'd still want to see that in an official document tbh. I could imagine that would be the case, but I can't see how the metro even at 70kph average speed could beat the east hills line, especially when the express section is mostly 80-115kph, and that's for most of the journey, albeit I'm open to having my mind changed. As for your second point, yeah, that's fair. I do plan doing a video discussing that. I would probably disagree that the T8 would run in to capacity issues in the near future. I used to live along it and in my experience it rarely has overcrowding problems, as least not on par with lines such at the T1 or T4.
@@CityConnectionsMedia it'd be like leaving Bradfield out of the story of the original electric rail network. Rodd's the one who conceived and drove the metro concept under Labor with Iemma and Rees, and then finally brought it to fruition with the Libs. He finished the NW metro and then became Secretary of TfNSW but was fired by Andrew Constance. Of the two, I'd know which one I'd let go. Us old timers who lived through it all recognize his contribution.
@@paulgilchrist639 Well I guess he just never came up. I don't even remember him being mentioned in any of the sources I read. Although there is a trend of peoples work being credited to larger organisations, which could be what happened. That, and I didn't want too many news reports from the time.
