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I loved the interview, but just want to say a word on psychedelics part. Jonathan is right when he said that these things were not central part of cultures, but I was a little disappointed how he was at times judgmental. Not every one can just become Orthodox Christian and see "symbolic world". Also, what about research on patients with depression and anxiety with advanced cancer, who are being helped through psilocybin? What about stanched atheist who at least partly after experience can understand religious people? Etc. What I want to say, that we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need instructions how to use these substances, not condemnation. Btw. The use of psychoactive plants was not strange to ancient Christians at all, e.g. Origen said that mandrake (Psychoactive plant popular in Ancient Greece) can be beneficial for deepening faith, and Saint Basil the Great commented "“These plants, then, instead of making you accuse the Creator, give you a new subject for gratitude.” I think you should talk to Thomas Hatsis aka Psychedelic Historian for more :).
Check out this series. The whole Bible can be understood both literally and allegorically. It’s pretty incredible.. Will blow your mind 👍 m.ru-vid.com/group/PL2FmiXhYG3CAgx1aomSLlCku4rU8lm7qb
Funny how things come full circle. A few years ago I watched this guys videos for trip advice then grew out of that and found Jonathan’s videos. Now these two sides of me are reconciled with this interview 🙏🏾
Psychedelic experiences have shown me the stranglehold that evil has on this reality, and that I have free will to reject evil and embrace Christ, not merely as an archetype, but the living Son of God.
This is legitimately one of the best interviews I have ever listened to. I keep coming back to it. I am a huge fan of Jonathan and I love everything he does. Tom, your stories, insights and experiences, and ideas/thoughts elevated this conversation so much and the whole thing was amazing to listen to. I hope you continue your journey of discovery and may God bless you through His Church!
Well done lads! I appreciate Pageau not watering down the reality of the globo’s imposing this new order and systems of control. Beyond that this was a fruitful conversation. Tom’s questions are sincere and representative of the great many listeners. Tom & Jon pilled.
I'm catholic, but I really appreciate how the orthodox Bros are openly talking about the demonic. You should not water down Christianity in order to appeal to the modern materialistic public
That's bcuz the devil won't reveal himself to you unless it's profitable to him. Orthodox recognize the demonic forces and many of the demonic forces hide within the confines of the RCC
@@brendanryan1852 No, because biggest of followers it has and is easiest to subvert. But it was subverted in around 800s when it began incorporating Arian teachings despite been condemned decade before and for centuries Papal church is literally standing on lies about history, let alone theologically being substantially different from the Church of first thousand years and of the Church Christ founded with Apostles
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc Stop talking rubbish , there was unity in Christendom for a 1000 years with clear authority and a supreme pontiff. The only church that has apostolic succession, unity , clear authority and a supreme pontiff from Christ to Peter to Francis is the Catholic church . Will Satan seek to eclipse the Catholic church and change it's culture , tradition and teaching from within? ,yes because what other plan can he have that matters. But it can't truly happen because we have a magisterium , Francis and most of the heirarchy are actually completely anti Catholic but most faithful Catholics know this .But we won't schism it's not what we do because all we have to do is trust in God and hold on to the magisterium of the church and the deposit of the faith . Popes come and go,no single man defines the papacy , there have been 256 ,this one can't change jack without becoming a heritic . There have been saintly ones and evil ones , this one is evil it seems but it's all Catholics deserve for their lack of faith and piety. The gates of hell will not prevail.
@@brendanryan1852 Your belief is what I talk about when I say it's built on top of lies. Read the first 7 ecumenical councils and all other councils that Papist church recognizes on paper
“Ignoring spiritual experiences” I was involved in a conversation where one woman was talking to a priest about a spiritual experience she had and his reaction was something like “ok, you had this experience but it’s important to not dwell on it, and to move on.”
The best I've ever seen JP. I don't know how accessible the depths of this video are but for someone who's listened to a lot of him this was a great top to bottom explanation of his views.
TIMESTAMPS: 0:00 Jonathan Pageau Teaser 2:25 Jonathan joins the chat 4:40 Symbolism behind these chaotic times 6:33 There is nothing outside the system. You’re with us or against us. 12:31 Is this a start of a new Age? 16:05 Symbolism 101 21:52 Are Patterns fundamental? (Chicken or the egg) 25:03 Fake Vs Real Spiritual People 30:14 The Christ Story sounds ridiculous 36:46 Spiritual War 39:03 Shadow Integration 41:18 The Heroes Journey & CHRIST 45:05 Lord of the Rings SYMBOLISM 49:57 Literal vs Symbolic interpretation of the Bible 58:03 The “Absolute” Spiritual experience 1:10:09 Recognising Patterns 1:16:42 The lAnguage of Creation & Genesis Symbolism 1:24:16 The reconciliation of the Holy Trinity 1:30:31 Is CHRIST truly the first dying & resurrecting God? 1:32:29 UFOs and dark entities 1:34:40 it’s JUST Placebo 1:36:26 DMT Machine elves 1:39:10 Book of enoch & the “watchers” (aliens) 1:49:40 It’s SOO much more than just a substance 1:52:56 Video game Symbolism
I’ve been following your channel for a long time from when I was in my Buddhist/new age/psychedelic phase. Eventually I became catholic and it’s cool to see you getting involved with Christianity on Trent horns channel and this one and others.
Absolutely outstanding! I have been watching JP for a while but this is the best Symbolism 101 I have seen! Great questions, Tom. And Jonathan lays out so many of his basic principles so well, it fills in a lot of little gaps that I have been missing. So eye-opening and inspiring to me as a Christian. Almost thou persuadeth me to be an Orthodox..♥️
What a gem, I needed this! Been home past 2 days after a little accident at work, waiting for this chunk of skin to scab over on my leg lol peace and love everyone. Try to be aware!
Nice move getting Pageau, and others like Bancarz on, Mate. I'm another one of those guys, like a lot of people commenting here, who came under the headship of Jesus from 'mind-opening' so-called spirituality. It was a rough transition, sleep paralysis and the like, but He is reliable.
What he said about bad habits spoke to me and honestly... it does feel and appear pretty demonic. Its sad seeing this in other people that are well intentioned. This is the best podcast you had so far so much knowledge thats needed today. Also, realized growing up catholic and going to catechism I realize I really knew nothing about christianity and was taught about it completley wrong. A legend of zelda videogame analysis for Jonathan would be amazing!
ha funny you mention zelda, I've been learning from Pageau for about 6 months now and just replayed through Skyward Sword, there is SO much symbolism in it. Hiercarchy, the union of heaven and earth, the hero, the triforce, the cross, heavenly civilization in the clouds. For example, the first time link sees Fi in a vision, she is enveloped in light and her arms are stretched out in the position of the Cross!!! I was blown away haha. I saw it see it all over the games now. Zelda games draw from so much Christian symbolism, it made me I realized why I have always loved them haha
I wish catechism taught how to have a relationship with God rather than parrot text. Dont get me wrong I went through it as well but I've seen the church in my population 400 town become VERY corrupt over the past 20 years when our Father Timms passed away. Collections baskets going around 3 times, using my father's generosity against him, sending out pre filled checks. It was disgusting. I then decided to reach out to God directly and cut out the middleman with their greedy fingers trying to find their way into my pockets to boost their numbers and get promoted. Our town is essentially a training ground for priests that only stay a half year and milk the town dry. Each priest coming up with a more nefarious plan to take money. A direct connection with God was my Salvation. Like Jesus. He had no book. He saw men charging for simply listening to him and simply told them to stop. There's a direct connection to God and there's the corruption of men tainting the work of honest, spiritual people.
@@tambourineman6653 I am saddened that you have experienced such corruption and I whole heartedly agree that it is not good and you should stay away from such people. But if you truly identify as a follower of Christ then you should still ask yourself. Where is that Church that He told his apostles to build in His name?
When GOD blesses you with the ability to see reality for what it really is.. LIVING becomes a literal joyous gift every single day.. I pray GOD blesses you with this Tom 🙏🏼
Great conversation! I had sleep paralysis in my early twenties.. one of the scariest things ever... being paralyzed and you can feel something is in the room with you. Luckily I found christ and those nightmares went away.
I enjoy Jonathan so much! This was an excellent talk. You posed so many great discussion points! Thank you! Made my night in the kitchen so much more enjoyable!
My absolute two favourite you tubers, this is gonna be great. Congrats Tom big ups! (If you don’t recognize me it’s cause my RU-vid accounts gets banned every few weeks)
Power is its own motivation , the capacity for power comes into a holy union with peoples desire to be safe - the safer you are the more afraid you are
Anyone talking to JP deserves a sub so here's mine. Looking forward to digging into your backlog too, looks intriguing. Greetings from The Sticks, Queensland.
I've been raised Baptist my whole life and have always struggled to have faith or believe in God. I've been having ketamine infusions by a doctor for the past year which have been helpful but can lead you down many paths which lead me to even more questioning. I stumbled across your video with Uberboyo and got hooked. I've been trying to seek information about religion as a whole from a number of people but the Uberboyo interview helped me take the biggest step towards God. I finally felt I could believe in this idea that there is a God. One thing I don't understand is if we believe in Christ and God why did he call him a stupid guy that died on a cross. Maybe I misunderstood but it made me question if I should even watch this youtube page anymore. I feel like I took a giant step closer to God and then knocked right back down. Not being judgemental but just don't understand. Sorry for any bad grammar😁😁
Marshall McLuhan gets it and sort of puts forth a way Symbolisim can carve us a path out of the maelstrom: "Pattern recognition in the midst of a huge, overwhelming, destructive force is the way out of the maelstrom. The huge vortices of energy created by our media present us with similar possibilities of evasion of the consequences of destruction. By studying the pattern of the effects of this huge vortex of energy in which we are involved, it may be possible to program a strategy of evasion and survival."
I'm nontheist and I just wanted to share a little about the experiences I can relate to this in my own interactions with Christian theology. I deconverted from baptist fundamentalism, so coming from the materialist model stripped of symbolic understanding I was very much angry with the religion and how toxic it was to be raised in that environment. I was very much an angry atheist/hard atheist/aron ra and Matt dillahunty acolyte. I remember using bronze age and iron age as insults carrying very negatively biased implications, but after doing further research into other denominations, the history of the tradition, and the metaphors and symbols within the scriptures, I now look at the ages of the texts and the technological states of the cultures in which they developed with nothing but pure marvel. Materialism and scientism has so heavily impacted my own bias that I was entirely blind to the potential humans still very much had in our more distant history. The fact that a relatively small tribe of nomads in the desert came into these revelations is absolutely phenomenal. The fact that their narrative lives on today, having survived the tests of time and grown in the capacity for explanatory power relating to our conscious experiences is almost just as insane to me from the outside looking in. I had long realized such marvel in the contexts of eastern traditions like daoism and Buddhism and Hinduism, and I know you all consider these truths to be obvious, but my past traumas prevented me from looking inwards in this direction. I had always considered "know thyself" one of the most important maxims, but like you said in the video the vast majority (quotes so far as 98%) of ourselves functions in the dark even despite our reflections and there are moments when you comes into the light of epiphany and you are just slapped across the face. These are good moments, thank you for facilitating one of them.
Just to let you know Seraphim Rose talks about the relationship between aliens and the demonic in his Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future. He basically states that yeah aliens are demonic entities and he makes some good claims
55:00 I really enjoyed Jonathan's response to your question on duality. It's funny he mentioned eating your feces in relation to duality because that's actually what my main talking point is "would you rub your own poop on your face? No? Then you believe in and operate within duality" Check it, look at the Aghoris for example who believe in non duality and take that concept to the extreme. They rub their own excrement on themselves and meditate on dead bodies. That is non duality expressed to the fullest extent. If everything is one then there is no good or bad, because it's all just one. That is the fruit of the seed of non-duality
Wow. Loved this conversation. I did psychedelics before and came upon the Lovecraftian horror that is reality and met the Holy Trinity. It was terrifying. Definitely unearned wisdom. Even though Jesus was scary as hell He held my hands through the experience.
@@medarby3066 to make someone believe they’ve found the real Jesus. See Doreen Virtue’s original testimony. She had a false encounter with Christ and it led her into a false church. Satan will do anything in his power to keep people from finding the Truth and he’s very good at confusing people. There are so many “Christians” on judgement day that will say “Lord, Lord!” only to hear “Depart from me, I never knew you”
Tom, can you tell me the best drug to take while using a VR Headset? Especially when using VR for nature documentaries and 4K videos of people travelling through cities. Thanks, mate!
There’s mystics in the Christian tradition which validate or at least add further evidence to some of the eastern esoteric “new age” realities without abandoning the faith. Swedenborg is one great example.
Great interview Tom. You have good insights. You might be interested in "The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios", by Dionysios Farasiotis. Also "God's Revelation to the Human Heart" by Fr Seraphim Rose.
I like these podcasts, but I miss the shorter videos you were doing too. Your editing style is very satisfying, and the way you explain things is very satisfying.
This idea of substances having demons behind the addiction makes a lot of sense to me. As someone who is currently battling an addiction with prescription amphetamine, I have noticed some intrusive blasphemous thoughts coming though that I don’t have when I am sober. I hope that I can get past this addiction as I recently looked more into orthodoxy and read a lot more about christianity as a lot of the orthodox beliefs resonate with me. I just pray that I’m not going to eternal damnation for the thoughts that I have had and that through learning more about the christian faith and living by the beliefs I hold that I can redeem myself.
Book of Enoch chapter 7:10 “Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and tree.” I wonder if this is ayahuasca 🤔 8:3 “Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots.” Shamans?
1:33:15 Jonathan Pageau makes an error. Crowley's demon was named Aiwass/Aiwaz/Aivas/OIVZ. Alioth is the name of a Marvel character first appearing in a 1993 Avengers comic.
The defining term Jonathan uses to identify the materialistic impulse leading to the superficial Christianity of the last couple centuries is Modernism. The Catholic Church has been struggling deeply with this especially now, but for nearly 200 yearspreviously. That war within is not yet lost, but Modernism definitely dominates the public face of Catholicism today. And yet, the youth and growth in the Catholic Church are not with the modernist elements of the Church. There is hope in the West, no matter how dark it may seem.
Tom, when I did Iboga I had bible verses in my head, i remember thinking how strange it was, i was not brought up that way at all. It was like the plant was Christian.
Very interesting talk. I think you'd benefit somewhat from questioning your guest more. To me there were a many things that were glossed over in an a way that seems a little dishonest from the outside. Not to say that I think either of you were being dishonest, but it felt like you affirmed eachother rather quickly without exploring the alternatives (or at least you did not show a careful consideration of the alternatives).
58:06 If I may, I'd like to offer a rebuttal to a certain degree. You can experience an absolute presence of mind through the "subjective" lens with things like meditation, psychedelics, and dreaming. Psychedelics are an obvious one since they literally cause connections to form all over the brain in ways that are generally not possible in the sober state of mind. It's like, in a dream you can experience it from a first-person POV, but it would be strange to say that the "others" you interact with in that dream are not also you from an absolute sense of self. So this type of phenomenon is possible at least within your own mind. The dream from a first person POV is a subjective experience within the subjective experience. Odd isn't it? Things that perceptually seem separate can, at the very least, sometimes actually be the same in the absolute sense. The dream is an encounter with the infinite potential of one's self. Since the self contains the ego, you must also be located within infinite potential. If you are that which you perceive to not be then identity must be a relativistic notion to begin with. As soon as you truly identify as infinite potential, ego collapses and God-self is realized. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity this is what's known as theosis. It is the ultimate death-rebirth. I'm not making claims that reality isn't "material" here. Just wanted to point this out.
I don't know if I completely get your point, but I think that maybe you may be mixing up where the objective and subjective join. Obviously, some things can be subjective, like a favourite colour, or an experience to an extent. But, there's still objectivity involved in it. If your favourite colour is blue, then the blue is objective. If you had an experience, there were objectives about it. You were a person, the things that happened in the experience happened and it's your perception and interpretation ofnthe experience that becomes subjective. Same as a dream. The dream objectively happened and your experience of the dream is objective. Everyone's dreams are the same in a lot of ways too. They experience them from the point of view of themselves etc. My point is that objectivity and subjectivity are a question of your point of reference and always meet somewhere.
Also, on your point about encountering beings on psychedelics, Christians believe that you do encounter those beings, but we believe they're demons you're encountering. It's a form of Pharmakeia and goes hand in hand with things like witchcraft and idolatry which is strictly forbidden im Christianity. We are told to never participate in these things, because you're opening the door to Demons. They don't predent themselves as Demons, but theyre liars and will end up taking you down a dark path, like drug abuse and other detrimental things to your body, which is why if you look at most New age believers, they're actually really selfish, self indulgent and narcissistic, but tend to hide it behins empty spiritual platitudes about self love and sexual liberation. Nothing could be more detrimental to a person spiritually, than self infulgence, endlessly convincing themselves that they're amazing and never reflecting on their bad habits and feeding an insaciable passion than sexual desire. These were the practice of the Romans, Egyptians and all other pagan religions. We're told to stay sober and find the True God through prayer, fasting, almsgiving and always remaining vigilant on yourself, to constantly ensure that you don't fall into these bad habits.
Desert Fathers: "you must spend your life fasting, praying and almsgiving to come close to Theosis in this life." Psychedelic Guy: "Yea I did acid and experienced what you Christians call Theosis. I met God and found out I actually am Him." Get outta here lol
@@virginiusmaximus7006 My claim was that a dream is a subjective configuration created by the mind of external reality, but since you can experience that dream as an ego in the first-person point of view, you are subjectively experience the subjectivity of your own mind thus making this type of phenomenon possible at least within those bounds. You see what I mean?
@@darianelgert7511 I wouldn't discount those experiences so quickly. It's a real phenomenon. It's just the problem is that there is generally no work put into to getting to that point of God-realization on psychedelics, so while you get a similar experience as theosis it is very hard if not impossible to retain it for day-to-day life thus making it obsolete in the grand scheme of your own personal development. Now using them as a way to "plant the seed" for a lack of a better term to see where you need to work towards, I don't personally see a problem. I could be wrong though. I just can't deny the results for some people who psychedelics have cured things like death-anxiety for cancer patients for example. There is something to them, but for the most part they are misused I think.
Jesus Christ is truly Lord, and He saves people despite partaking in these things, depending on the relationship the person has towards God, truth, love, righteousness, sinfulness etc etc.
@@elsikpych Oh but He is returning to complete the prophesies that He did not fulfill. All the rest of them He did indeed fulfill :) No other human has brought the God YHWH to the whole world and no other has been a light for the gentiles. These are the biggest ones.
Your mate Tom...what do you think about law of attraction now? What scared you so badly that you have changed your mind and would you still encourage people to do plant medicine ? Like San Pedro and ayahuasca?
The symbolism of games is nightmares and hell, forget about the setup, but look at the actions there, your "in game purpose". It is described in the Gospel of Truth, "... you flee, you lack strenght, you pursue unspecific items, you give blows or receive bruises, you are falling (from high) or flying through the air, sometimes people try to kill you, or you try to kill them, you do it over and over again (respawning) ..." (not a exact quote just similar). Do not get used to it, since you will get used to hell. If you are drowning in such experiences: AWAKE!
hey, i don't do cell phones so never see people's 'community postings' but today saw the one about poss vax measures--hang in there!! sometimes we have to make choices & resort to lady justice & her scales. never a 'fun' way to make decisions (or, at least, i feel that way.) i can't wait to watch this video about REVALATION, spiritual entities--i actually have no idea what any of this means . . .
