The reason people still to this day say the speakers are the most important thing in a hifi system is because they make the biggest difference to the sound. The source on the other hand makes the biggest difference to the music and that's where the heart and soul is.
Just found this, after browsing through your back catalogue! I totally agree with your hierarchy, which was how Derek Whittington of Sound Advice (Rega, Linn, Naim dealer) described it to me some 30 plus years ago. But I love the noise in the room analogy, so correct and easy to understand why the turntable is more important than the cartridge. Which I have heard demonstrated several times, by people far cleverer and knowledgeable than me, and the majority of keyboard warriors!!
Don't forget that the turntable is the device you interact with the most. The tactile joy of using a solid feeling turntable unconsciously adds a lot of value to the music experience... while speakers are just... standing there untouched.
I dk, but I’ve touched and interacted with my speakers plenty by now. Move them in/out, closer farther, try them on stands, isolation pads, connect them with a OF pure copper wire ... 😅 Not to mention, building them and soldering the crossover for the drivers ... 😁👍
Great video as always Phil, I’ve always held the view that the source was the most important element in the chain but the ‘speakers first’ perspective seems to be very popular in online chat forums these days. One thing that I’d love to hear your perspective on is cartridge / phono pre matching and how much to spend on a phono pre as a proportion of the total front end cost, Maybe for another video! Anyway thanks for the great content, keep it coming.
Superb, informative video Phil, and very interesting to see a Kiseki Purple Heart on the P10. Perhaps that would be an idea for a video? Where you outline your favourite alternative cartridges for the Rega decks, and of course the VTA issues etc?
You know you have a good sounding system no matter the cost when the drums sound right. Every thing else falls in to place . This is just my opinion . The high end stuff drove me nuts. I have a turntable , intergrated amp and $300 speakers and am in heaven!
Expert at Audio T told me the magic ratio is 4 to 2 to 1 for source then amp then speakers. On a demo of a Linn (£4K), Rega amp (£2k) and AE500 speakers (£1k) using some state of the art classical albums from the 1960s and 1970s I brought in here proved to be right. We then added on a REL sub bass and there was some imaging improvements as well as deeper bass but the biggest impact other than the Linn was the amazing SolidSteel stands. At about £600 they are very expensive but boy are they worth it.
I’m a Linn devotee and 25 years ago I worked for them in a senior position for ten years doing these demos around the world. The logic and philosophy is right. I’m so committed to this in fact that outside my main system I even have Linn Klimax DSM’s driving small quality active speakers in my kitchen and bedroom for music and TV/Video which sound fabulous. A couple of points I would make to balance the argument into something for today’s world. Firstly, you need an amp and speakers good enough to hear the differences. Otherwise logic would suggest a fully loaded Rega 10 into a transistor radio is better than a Rega 3, Rega amp and a pair of Kef LS50 meta’s. The last system would be 10X better at a fraction of the price. Especially important is the choice of speakers. Secondly, most people don’t just listen to vinyl as music has mostly been in digital files since the 80’s, where a good quality DAC/streamer is crucial, and in most cases sounds better than a digital file converted to analogue & pressed to vinyl…doh! Also movies and other great entertainment play a big part in what a system needs to do. Content and multiple sources demand a more balanced holistic approach. If you only listen to vinyl, on a system that’s good enough to hear the differences, this approach is right. If anyone is interested my main system is a Linn Klimax LP12, the new Klimax DSM, Sky TV, 4K DVD, Klimax Solos and Kef Blade 2’s.
I bought a pair of KEF LS50 and tbh they kind of suck in a kind of detailed way. It's odd I just don't really want to listen to that tweeter and the woofer has a hump but they do sound good on I would say vocals in particular. Anyway for as hard as they are to drive, I still love my Infinity Kappa 8 and 7s. Have been making CD recordings lately off of youtube and an 80 mins CD is about 50 cents. Got a Nak ZX9 and there the new tapes suck gotta go old Maxells.
@@JohnDoe-np3zk Thanks…but it wasn’t the point I was making. Substitute your speakers for the Kef’s and do you now understand what I was saying.
2 года назад
Would you recommand linn components outside a full linn speaker? Or should they really be part of a full linn system? I’m asking because i’ve been looking at the klimax solo … but not sure how well they would fit with non linn components?
@ Despite what many people think Linn gear can work really well within other systems but like anything you have to try it in your own system to know. When the solos first came out many reviewers reviewed them in NON Linn systems awarding them 5***** with words like ground breaking. They have incredible musicality, devoid of sonic character and a near bottomless pit of power virtually regardless of speaker load. They’ll certainly let you know how good or bad your source/s and preamp are. And don’t let the small cases fool you, they’re that size due to the specially designed power supplies instead of the typical big humming toroidal transformers found in most big powerful power amps. People often listen with their eyes…a physically big amp must mean big power…hahaha! Check the Solo’s you’re looking at buying have the Dynamic power supply, I’m not saying the earlier ones without it are not good but there’s an appreciable improvement with it or expect to pay a much lower price without and look to have them upgraded if you can. Incidentally Linn’s head of engineering who had been with the company over 20 years and who designed many of Linns legendary famous products told me the Klimax Solos were his proudest achievement. The fact that 20 years later they are still Linn’s best power amp says it all. They drive my Kef Blades with complete ease, control and with a massive soundstage.
@@neilgaydon5430 I upgraded from a Twin to a pair of Solo/d to drive my 242s several years ago and one of the best upgrades I've done. So glad to hear the designer was so proud of them.
I would agree with this, as long as your speakers are still up to a good standard. I put most of my money into the front end, then amp, then speakers. I chose speakers I really wanted and are very good, but I found some ex-demo knowing I’d one day upgrade them to match the level of the front end. I’m currently in no hurry to replace the speakers as I love my system, but I know the day I want an improvement that is where I’ll start.
A great video with some good advice offered, by a good dealer. It can be very difficult to get the balance right financially, when putting a system together. I would be one of Philip’s customers if I lived near Crewe !
The room and where you place your speakers will have the biggest effect on what your system sounds like. Gotta get that right first, but yes I agree with you, a turntable is a vibration measuring device, so no point in putting an expensive cart if your feeding it the wrong vibrations. Prioritise where you site the TT (a wall shelf will work wonders), the plinth, the platter, then the arm, then the cart.
The pub singer analogy doesn’t transfer entirely, but it’s still a great way to put it. I’m still using Linn Ninkas in my main system which whilst very competent, are on the lower end of the scale from Linn, and getting on now too, but they still show every change up front. I heard a big improvement when I added the Neo to my P5, and another big improvement when I changed the P5 out for an Akurate(ish) spec LP12… the LP12 was a close run with the P10, lovely deck the P10!
A manufacturer’s rep once told me, 15% percent of the people who walk into our high-end store are looking for Jesus. The rest want more bass. Phil is right. Most people don’t know what real bass is. They think bass is what is actually lower booming midrange.
The easiest rule of thumb is: spend €100,- for every Kilogram of a piece of equipement with exception of the cartridge including needle: spend €10,- per gram on that, and €10,- per metre of cable.
I think source first approach makes sense for an analogue setup. In case of a Digital setup, good DACs are quite cheap nowadays, and the differences are difficult to notice. So Amp & Speakers give more improvements
I’ve never quite got the bass thing, one reason I can’t get along with ported speakers, always infinite baffle for me. As long as I can follow a bass line, that’s ok for me. Surely has to be turntable, tonearm,cartridge,pre amp,power amp. Turntable first I.e. the main bearing rumble will transfer to the tonearm and onto the cartridge etc, etc.
Hi sir I fully understand why you can’t now respond to comments so in this case don’t , just to say it’s obvious you have spent probably most of your adult life in the realm of hifi , just as I have spent my working life in the world of electrical contracting . And I know if I comment on my chosen field someone will always try to shoot me down , yer right . Yes I have had an interest in hifi since 1969 but I no nothing compared to your good self . But I know an expert when I see one , and you fit totally into that category . Best wishes and kind regards as always. 😀👍👍👍
Thanks for the video and info , my question is I’ve got a 2022 Rega P3 with the factory blue cartridge fitted speed control box wall mounted and now the new rega MK4 Elex R amplifier running into a pair of Focal Aria 926 speakers. Would I benefit from changing my cartridge to say the rega MC and rega MC Preamp. What do you think ?
Paul McGowan says the other way round, prioritize speakers first. I’m with you both (or against you both however you choose to look at it 😀) surely the whole system needs to be at a similar level. If any one part of the chain is substandard to the rest it’s gona act as a bottleneck
Brilliant rarely heard advice and analogy; the turntable makes an enormous difference. I would add that high sensitivity speakers (95db/W+) have the exact same effect but they won't reach their engaging potential without a good source.
It's rather easy and fairly cheap: Get a good DAC, the technology is very well mastered these days and you can easily get a superbly sounding product for under 1000$! For example, get an SMSL D6S @ 230$, It will surpass any turntable at any price point. But sure, get high quality recording, poor records won't sound any better on a high fidelity DAC / sound system. The P10 is a good engineering iteration of an old technology. This aging technology brought music to the reach of people. But the media and this technology can't compete with well engineered digital. You can prefer the sound of a tube amp with its added harmonic distortion and non-linearity, you can prefer vinyl (+ large artwork, physically handling it.etc), that's like preferring a good old sport car to a brand new shiny Tesla! You hear the grunt noise, you smell burned petrol, you like it's rough handling, that's a choice like many others!
Have loved hifi all my life. Have an lp12 etc etc at the age of 60 having gone to too many loud concerts I still dream of upgrading however I can’t hear the tv until the wife shouts at me. What upgrade choices do I have … bar hearing aids. Having mentioned them are there any high end hifi hearing aids that have great separation good clarity and enough bass to enjoy drum and beat? Will the resonances of any part make a difference if I get good hearing aids?
Love it. Great explanation mate. It's amazing how many Audiophiles? out there approach setting up a system back to front. When I was selling HiFi, I use to use cooking as an analogy for a system setup. Chef/Ingredients/Flavour. Turntable/Amp/Speakers.
Superb as usual... Which bookshelf speakers are best for my P6 and brio? I've now got limited space.. if you stock speakers for it...I will buy from you
As a tuba player I hate boomy bass reproduction. I prefer quality over quantity even if it's rolled off below 80 Hz. BTW tubas have the most energy in the 150 Hz region.
best to make your own plinth out of 3 inch open cell foam two pieces of 6mm hardboard, a piece of oak for the centre bearing and another circular peace for the tonearm, and buy good quality bearing like from Linn. put the money into a good arm. speed control unit doesn't have to be expensive and the best is the phoenix engineering and the roadrunner. as good as the best turntable out there
I find English oak, especially 300 years old, kiln dried, from the south East (Kentish is the best!) gives a much crisper sound than the cheap Chinese Oak you get these days.
Paul McGowan from PS Audio writes exactly the opposite in his book: first loudspeakers then source. In case of analog: phono pre ->cartridge->tonearm->table. I dont know whats right, but I think Paul is an honest guy with lots of experience
Paul McClown has spouted a fair bit of rubbish over the years, and I certainly wouldn't put the "honest" near his name, look up the 2 recent reviews of his stuff on, AudioScienceReviews on YT. Although having said that, I personally think speakers first would be the way I would suggest.
I play records and CDs a cd player should be pitch perfect compared to records I prefer the record player. I use a technics DJ turntable I'm sure everybody is familiar with this turntable. I used a project carbon arm and started with a rega basic cartridge. I then went to an audio technica moving coil and what a difference this made. It was night and day. Records always sound better than CDs. I hold with no particular way to build a system . I say experiment until you get the sound you like. If a dealer says this is better I say prove it. I will bring the equipment into my system, make the change if it sounds better. How many speakers I went through supposedly excellent speakers costing up to three thousand pounds before settling on a pair of dynaudio. I would like to try a rega turntable which one is better than the technics 1210 and I will try it and let you know what I think.
In a pure sense this video is true. But you will have to think that people coming in turntables at this point are younger people with a limited collection of vinyls. They might have some records that they have inherited and don't want to throw away. So they are wondering what is it about as so far they've enjoyed music with Spotify and a pair of headphones. So they will want to get a system that can play Spotify and also play those records. And the the musicality and transient response of the analog system has to beat the Spotify. But still buying a Rega 8/10 is like buying a car for younger people.
Interesting I started to think. I have a test record. And I did measure wow and flutter while playing that record. I got a graph and i saw the variations. And I naturally thinking that of course is should strive for the lowest variations. But how low wow and flutter can I achieve? Nothing is 100% accurate and the cutting head on the lathe that is cutting the lacquer for producing my test record have of course ALSO wow and flutter.. When that lathe wow and flutter is not declared then I naturally don't know how much my TT has and how much of the wow and flutter already in my test record from the lathe.. And I can't get any lower wow and flutter than what the lathe has. In short we may be able to measure and get lower wow and flutter but only to a certain point with this type of method as a test record and nobody knows where the bottom is (good enough for the method used)..👍
If the “SOURCE” is wrong everything else will be wrong!! It even starts with the microphones in the recording studio. I would go with 50% of budget on Source and Cable’s.
If I was a friend of the pub singer. A late friend was a pub singer then the Albert hall would be over kill. Musical tastes differ so the design needs to focus on this. It’s a bit like trying to play Chopin on a harpsichord it might have the right notes but the whole performance would not be quite right quite funny but not right. So choose a turntable on use not just the numbers.
Start with where you want to listen. Then buy suitable speakers. No point buying something for the Wembley stadium if you plan on listening in the bedroom.
I had this demonstrated back in the 80s. It was an open evening at a hifi dealer. Roksan Xerxes, Artemiz, Shira, Artaxerxes, Bryston pre/power amps and the obvious speakers were the Darius speaker from Roksan. Music was playing and I was seriously impressed. Then the guy presenting said "OK, Let's go from the Hotcakes to the Darius" Wasn't the turntable/cart as a measuring device a Touraj Moghaddam comment?
Garbage In = Garbage Out. Best signal into your amp the better. Amps and speakers can only amplify and put out that signal, if that signal is rubbish, hence, Garbage In = Garbage Out. A good guitarist can make a mediocre guitar and amp/cab sound really good, whereas a bad guitarist will make the best guitar and Marshall stack sound bad. Garbage In = Garbage Out.
Blind listening tests..cuts out the psycological factor of price and brand 2 turntables same cartridge same ancilliary gear, play same pieces of music on both..let customer decide..if they cant tell difference go for cheaper buy....thats how i ended.up.with audio technica deck over a rega p3
Speaking as someone who has collected vinyl since a teenager in the 70s, I'd say the best thing to happen since then is CD. No worrying about pops, crackles, records "sticking" or "jumping", wow, flutter, timing etc. The vinyl revival is over hyped and over priced.
Speaking as someone who has been eating food since a child in the 60's I'd say the best thing ever to happen to the culinary world is the invention of the frozen microwaveable ready meal. No worrying about obtaining and preparing fresh ingredients, no more messy pans to wash up, no more concern about gas supply restrictions for the hob, no more inconsistencies in preparation. I think the whole fresh food and quality restaurant culture is over hyped and over priced 😄
Rubbish video. How can you neglect even mentioning the phono preamp, let alone focusing on its importance in an analog system? Planar 10 and Kiseki Purple Heart through the built in phono preamp of most preamps or integrateds will be so constrained as to be indiscernible from a stock P3. So what’s the point?
a friend of mine has just bought a P10 and an expensive pre and power amp set up. I'd like to hear how my P3 sounds on that system compared to his P10, will it be 7 better????
@Jack Brugts Anyone who thinks that they can "hear something" to determine audio quality on youtube (with the youtube compression algorithm) ... OBVIOUSLY, Understands NOTHING regarding audio, or audio quality. Just because you cannot comprehend what Phil is talking about ... well, that is your problem ... educate yourself before making moronically stupid Trolling comments. I have noticed that you continuously Troll Phil's channel ... Why? ... Because of your obvious total ignorance? Get a life and grow up Buddy
@@leon9021 I don't fault them for self interest. However I am deeply familiar with both analog and digital sound and can hear more information from the LP in direct A/B LP/CD comparisons of the same albums.
@@1mctous Thats beside the point. I only listen to LP as well, but I would never say its superior to CD. You cant compare formats this way since there is no fair comparison. You dont know how a release was sourced and mastered for the respective medium so you cant say what made a difference.
