The outro music was "The Missile Knows Where It Isn't" by Charli Morgan and the background music at 0:33 was commissioned directly from her : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-9fqUH4-thG4.html Much of this video's research was done by my friend Zach: www.patreon.com/Vrmillion
Not mentioned, however planes like the F-35 can, and have in testing, guided Patriot missiles to targets in seen by the radar. In the test it had a flying target behind a mountain that the plane guided the missile on to.
F-35 can guide missiles from other aircraft and Aegis as well. It’s an amazing aircraft, and at $80 million dollars it’s cheaper than a new F-16 Block 70. Crazy how much irrational hate the F-35 has gotten when literally every airforce that can get it wants it
@@tylerclayton6081 A lot of people simply don't understand how important C3 capabilities are and dismiss weapons that excel in those areas. The idea if the F-35 being a force multiplier simply doesn't occur to them.
@@tylerclayton6081 Generally speaking the F-35 isn't good at dogfighting even most 4th generation fighters and none of the current 5th generation ones too. Its limited weapons capacity and range also doesn't help its effectiveness either. The only redeeming qualities are its excellent sensor suite, various data links, and incredibly small RCS (about the size of golf ball at bvr distances). Practically speaking if it can kill its opponent bvr/oth there shouldn't be any reason to dogfight in the first place.
@@Anonymous______________ bro, the F35 smoked a team of F16 and F15s. It's totally capable. Air dominance isn't about rate of turn or rudder authority any more. Looking at any modern conventional war the US has been in you can see massive air campaigns with hundreds of aircraft in the air at the time. There's no 1v1 dog fighting that will be happening and if there is F15s or F22 will be close by to handle it. The F35 is designed to address a different threat, the modern IADS.
You should make a similar video on the Iron Dome system and maybe include the recent addition of the Iron Beam system to help alleviate the pressure of the Iron Dome
It's odd Army retired Hawk without ever getting replacement medium range air defense when there's plenty of examples of ground launched Sidewinder and AMRAAM to -steal- take inspiration from. Or, since they -stole- took inspiration from Navy's Phalanx for CRAM, they could do the same with ESSM and RIM-116 RAM
A convenient replacement for the MIM-23 HAWK could have been either the Sparrow-HAWK or HAWK-AMRAAM proposals which modified the HAWK launcher to carry and fire eight Sparrows or AMRAAMs.
They're looking to integrate SM-6s into the whole ADA table IIRC, and there's also an ongoing effort on IFPC and LOWER-AD projects to plug the hole between the current Patriot and SHORAD assets. If it's absolutely necessary to find a suitable 1-to-1 replacement for the HAWK in the immediate future, there's also the NASAMS option.
Swedish Patriot batalions sre mixed with IRIS-T SLS short range missiles. The battalion also has a passive 3D signals intelligence system as well as multiple medium and long range 3D radars to cover any radar gaps.
Fellavision in the morning seems like a great start to the day. Interesting system, I wonder what the difference between the current and future sensor system will be.
Russia (and the Soviets before them) have also placed much more emphasis on ground based ADA than NATO since they were concerned about being able to maintain air superiority. Not all of their systems (looking at Pantsir) work all that well and their employment has been pretty spotty in Ukraine but they have massive numbers of launchers and lots of tiers of effectors to use.
Greetings from Spain. It would be very interesting to have the PATRIOT and the C-RAM and C-UCAS systems in vehicles similar to the BUK, SHILKA and S-300 on armoured DT-30 tractors.
There is an Anti-Standoff Jammer(ASOJ) patriot missile which is pretty much an ARM, fired on the target line of the jammer and homes in on whatever it finds. Aside from that, basic radar counter jamming techniques like interval on-off periods and frequency hopping.
0:47 14:24 😂 Patriot. Can't intercept Iskander Ballistic missiles but manage to shoot down Hyper sonic Kinzal missile what are smoking dude 🇷🇺🇺🇦Minus two more Patriot air defense missile systems in the Lyubimovka area of Dnipropetrovsk region. Failed interception is caught by UAV so please stop spreading some nonsense
According to interviews (with Ukrainian SAM crews), the "SAM Ambush" that killed the Russian AWACS was German doctrine and the Germans trained the Ukrainian crews to do that, by waking them in the middle of the night and doing alarm redeployments and schoot-n-scoot drills during their training in Germany. That is why the Germans mount their Patriot missile launchers directly on their trucks, instead of using towed trailers and why German Patriot systems are more mobile.
In general, being mounted should always increase survivability of any AA system. Now, trailer mounted can be interesting for pure firepower increase (as it is probably cheaper to be built), specially if some form of self movement tech (from towed artillery) was implemented.
The SAMbush is a WPACT tactic since the most common user of that tactic are either Sov trained or former Wpact member/trained. Case and point O Grady F-16 shootdown and the famous F-117 Shootdown
@@gotanon9659 "SAMbush" as it is known now is more than just switching on the radar shortly before shooting (as was the case with the F-117). What they now call SAMbush is to move a AA system close to the front and then shoot without using the system's own radar system but using guidance by other radars, so the target doesn't know it is being targeted by a Patriot system. That is a new radar networking system invented by the USA, but the tactic to move around large SAM systems like Patriot quickly as if they were self propelled howitzers, doing "Shoot-N-Scoot", striking and then running away before the enemy has time to strike back, is a German tactical technique. What happened with the Russian A-50 was only possible through the combination of modern American technology and German semi-guerrilla tactics. I am not aware of any evidence or hint that any Warsaw Pact military has ever done something like that or has the technological ability to do it. Yes, Russian S-300 and S-400 systems also use launchers directly mounted on trucks, like the German Patriot launchers, but they are way bigger, heavier and not as mobile or easy to hide (in barns for example) as those German Patriot trucks. If Russian SAM systems would do Shoot-N-Scoot or if they would be able to target targets using other radar systems than their own, the Ukrainians wouldn't have such a easy time attacking them.
"Battle Order just put out a Patriot video? What a weird coincidence, Zach Abdi just put out a 10 page Patriot system overview." Video Lead Researcher: Zach Abdi
I like to think it's only an acronym because first someone thought "damn patriot is a badass name for our AD system", then later the red tape sheriffs detected fun, so some quick thinking turned it into a acronym that nobody actually uses.
9:51 The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't, by subtracting where it is, from where it isn't, or where it isn't, from where it is, whichever is greater, it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance sub-system uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is.
That was one of the best reviews of patriot I’ve seen. I’ve been interested in the subject for years and picked up pieces here and there but this really summarized everything!!!
At 11:25 he methodically dodges the topic of the abyssmal success rate of the system. Very missleading part, fueling doubts about the whole videos integrity.
In this context - I think the design of Polish patriot batteries (Wisla) is quite interesting. Because it's a battery of 8 launchers with 2 radars and some support elements duplicated. It is also a battery meant to use both LTAMDS radars and IBCS system. Each battery would be combined with Pilica + which is basically 23mm autocannons with Piorun MANPADS, SHORAD radar and CAMM missiles. While MAPADS with 23mm are not plugged into IBCS, the radar that's meant to search for targets for them - is, and so are CAMM missiles. It's a battery meant to cover strategic objects, with all together different system (Narew) being responsible for force protection and fighting air-breathing targets (Narew being mostly concetrated around CAMM-ER missiles, while Pilica + using same launchers will mostly have loadout of regumar CAMM missiles), both being interconnected via IBCS and having relatively large number of radars available (Radar for CAMM/CAMM-ER will come with emission decoy, to confuse ELINT / anti-radiation missiles). So yea.. same system same rockets, very different concept of using them.
The most surprising thing about this is the involvement of as ancient a weapon as 23mm dual cannon in a high end SAM battery. I have always sworn that one day there will be some really important use for this venerable weapon system.
@@herptek Well... these are heavily modified 23-2's that fire APFSDS-T ammunition with MANPADS, but at heart of it is the old soviet ZU 23-2. They can be remote controlled if need be, and either operated from trucks or deployed on ground. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NAMtLvRO7j0.html (sorry for music, manufacturer loves shit soundtracks for some reason) Considering presence of rather sensitive short range radars and addition of jamming... the main thing is the MANPADS on them. The 23-2 is basically a last resort against saturation drone attacks (like Shahed's - which cannot be jammed because they fly without operator's control, they just follow programmed route with Inertial navigation...), might seem silly since Poland has license for Gepard's 35'mm gun, already produces 35mm turrets for ships and is developing domestic programmable round for it similar to AHEAD round. But there's still a lot of ammunition for 23-2, and it's actually.. an export hit in continuous production - the basic bitch 23-2 actually sells like hotcakes in 3rd world countries. So production in Poland of these guns never stopped, it's still being cranked out.
@@BeneficiisI know, pardon my humour. Very many of our conscripts serving in air defence are also trained to use 23-2 just simply because there are so many of them. One hears quite regularly some self-depreciating humor on the prospects of using them against real, high end threats or about their usefullness in general. We also have our own modernization of it designated 23 ITK 95, which should be easier to use effectively, especially when used in combination with MANPADS and other air defence systems, covering their blind spots at very low altitudes and very short ranges. The currently ongoing war has shown that old fashioned AAA can work quite effectively against slow, longer ranged munition drones perhaps even better than against their original prey, low flying helicopters and ground attack craft.
@@herptek I'd say that 23-2 is perfectly fine to smash drones. Especially if modernized so that it doesn't rely on hand cranks, but a proper electric drive and given a thermal sight. And ammunition is much cheaper than a drone itself, unlike with MANPADS or worse, a proper SHORAD missile. Heck, even programmable 35mm can be more expensive than drones they shoot down. I would say it's kinda second youth for such autocannons, Northrop grumman is developing anti-drone system based on 25mm bushmaster autocannon, and 25 mm is not really that much different than 23mm - in fact 23mm is a longer round with larger powder charge behind it. Only fcked up thing is that these are fed from boxes that need to be manually reloaded, instead of just having a chain picking up the rounds from larger ammo storage. Makes it kinda difficult to make this stuff fully remote controlled since you always need a dude to put the box in and chamber first round. But nobody wants to invest too much into 23-2 since, well... 35mm outclasses it massively.
@@Beneficiis I very much agree on the principle of utilizing cannon armament against cheap new threats in addition old ones. Thermal sight might help in all weather, around the clock ability, but radar or laser assisted aiming is the important factor when trying to down them. Distance, speed and vectors of the target are to be taken in the account, either by old analog means or by new conputerized ones.
SAMP/T doesn’t have interceptors as good as the maneuverable Hit to Kill Pac-3 MSE interceptor. I’d rather see a video on the Aegis Ashore. Easily the best SAM system in the world, far better than even Patriot. Aegis Ashore can use SM-3 Block 2A interceptors which have an altitude range of 1200km allowing them to intercept ICBM’s in space. Aegis also uses the SM-6 Block 1B, a hypersonic missile interceptor with 1000km range These are the interceptors that any American destroyer or Frigate can deploy at sea. They’re the interceptors the US Navy relies on to protect our carriers strike groups
@@tylerclayton6081 But also static, so if you can get through it's a sitting duck. It'd be really cool if you could get Aegis Ashore on a train or something, kind of like the inverse of the Russian Train TELs.
mix, mass, mobility, and integration are the rules of thumb for ADA, and this video does a really great job showing that I always find it strange when a single battery get deployed on its own in a semi-fixed way, but I guess even the US is THAT short of resources after post-Cold war divestment when taking into account the global political considerations
i always build EMP patriot missile and firebase combo filled with missile defender + rangers the patriot missile one hit aircraft and disable tanks while missile defenders make short work of disabled tanks. they are good at defending the base. . . . . . . what do you mean this isnt cnc generals ?
I gotta give massive props to the team for this one. I'm a patriot operator in the BCP, but a lot of time spent crosstraining with both the launchers and the ECS, and this is one of the most comprehensive videos on the current force structure. I would've preferred more coverage of the MLL/IFPC programs, since those are also starting to reach fielding status and will integrate into the IBCS. There were some small issues here and there(like an MSE going over the shoulder to hit a target behind the launcher, just no xD), but overall, a great video.
A head of the largest ukrainian military assistance charities said, "In this war, Patriot shoots down everything". Specifically the PAC-3 missile. And it does. Absolute beast of an AA system.
Ukraine is definitely creating some new tactical doctrine with our weapons systems that we should be watching closely. Aggressive forward-deployed patriot traps to ambush enemy air elements are not in our playbook but maybe we should wargame it with our lighter forward forces to evaluate it.
Ukraine uses this innovative but risky tactic because they have no other options. In a NATO operation this task would be given to fighter aircraft which are much more flexible.
lighter forward forces will not carry patriot missile batteries, its just so far outside of their doctrine. this development, while innovative, is ultimately born out of necessity, not because it is the best way to counter air assets, a ground launched missile will always be more expensive than an air launched missile all else being equal, this is because the ground launched missile has to overcome thicker atmosphere and gravity. if you launch a missile from 30.000 feet you can get a lot more range out of the same or even a smaller missile. it just would not make sense to use a patriot if you can use an F35, you're unnecessarily risking lives, equipment and in the best case you're firing expensive missiles when an amraam could have sufficed.
According to interviews, the "SAM Ambush" that killed the Russian AWACS was German doctrine and the Germans trained the Ukrainian crews to do that, by waking them in the middle of the night and doing alarm redeployments and schoot-n-scoot drills. That is why the Germans mount their Patriot missile launchers directly on their trucks, instead of using towed trailers and why German Patriot systems are more mobile.
The Ukrainians learned SAM Ambushing during their training in germany, its a thing in Nato Doctrine already, but yes the experiences of ukraine should be studied closely for future updates and improvements
@@___seb3341 Whilst NATO doctrine puts the focus on our air power advantage, we'd be foolish not to consider that there may be scenarios in which we do not have air superiority, at least in localised sectors. At least evaluating tools and tactics for those contingencies is called for. We should never stop evolving our understanding of the capabilities of our platforms.
I remember when Sweden procured the patriot system. The main critique was the radars FOV, although we know from where a potential attack is coming. The second is how stationary the system is. I also think the price per missile is ridiculously high, but are we going to stop ballistic missiles just minutes away we don't have much time to argue
In polish configuration PAC 3 Batttery have two FU with four launchers on Jelcz (polish truck). We buy eight batteries. Two batteries have old radar configuration (120 degree). Six batteries will be have new radar configuration (LTAMDS). This porgram have name in Poland "Wisła" (name of polish river Vistula (latin)) We buy new amercian ADA command system - IBCS. This system will be take data from sensor from Patriot (Wisła), "Narew" (combo polish radars and FCS and british missle CAMM-ER, "Mała Narew" (Small Narew) (Combo polish radars and FCS and CAMM - this is emmergency configuration replacment soviet era SAM systems for Ukraine), Pillica + (polish radars and FCS +small cannons ZSU-23-2 + CAMM + PIORUN (polish MAPADS) and polish AEW airplain with Erieye radar and BARBARA (american AEW radars on airships) and future polish F-35. IBCS integrates this data and give fire decision to all polish effectors. This is revolution in Air Defence. All systems: Navy, Army, Air Force, Territorial Defence will be integrated in one system. BTW Wisła / Narew / Pillica this polish geographical name rivers in Poland. Polish air defence system programs have river name. Soviet SAM systems : Dźwina, Wołchow, Wega, Oka, Kub, Buk , Tunguska, Tor - this is river in USSR now post soviet independend states. Polish system command state ADA have name Dunajec (polish river) and oldes system had name Dunaj (river in Europe - Danube in english)
Very Briefed and Summarized Ideas: My choice will be S300/S400 and the most advanced and effective system the HQ9 family, the western combat doctrine stresses the importance of the air force in the roles of providing air defense umbrella to the ground formations, especially ground formations carrying out an offensive maneuvers, i.e. employing high agility highly maneuverable fighter aircraft in the air defense roles under the mission title of help gaining and ensure maintaining the air supremacy... what is very unfortunate for the Russian army is the depleting of their high-end ammunition, such as 9k720 and Kh-47M2 Kinzhal on attacking targets deep in Ukrainian territory, at a time when the tactical aspect has not been exhausted in thwarting the effectiveness of the state of art western air defense weapons, especially the mim-104 patriot systems of what is very temporarily called the united states of america those classified as the lower tier or the short range when it have to negotiate the ballistic missiles compared with Russian army throwing his arsenal of state of art ballistic and cruise missiles trying to destroy targets defended by those lower tier ABM systems... in my humble opinion the Russian army should reactivate their stock of the R17 Elbrus, and buying Iranian and DPRK's stock of their R17 Elbrus missile family and its locally developed and modified models, in those countries, I think those missiles are sufficient enough to defeat the western air defense systems, especially the Patriot system, either by chasing and destroying the systems and the batteries or by bypassing them and successfully🎯 their targets... for example, equipping the Scud family with a new warhead capable of carrying small diameter glide bombs weighing 150 kg including glide kit ,small propellant, and targeting suits for example laser receivers, or GPS guidance, and if we excluding the constraints imposed by the packaging of the payloads inside the carrying vehicle, the warheads of the R17 capable of delivering a single unitary warhead weighing between 1000k.g to 500k.g depends on the model to a ranges between 300km for the ss1scude-b to 750km for the ss1scude-c/d and their local copies, thus the new proposed warhead capable of delivering between 6 to 3 small diameter glide bombs to ranges between 500km to 1200km assuming the elements of : 1- the lighter weight of the glide bombs... 2- the designing of the bombs coupled with the glide kits to enhance the aerodynamic performance of the ammunition... 3- the extra propellant to help carry and push the ammunition over the air winds of the higher altitudes... 4- higher altitudes flying paths, 5- the additional momentum provided by the carrier platform (the ballistic missiles), which may travel at speeds exceeding five times the speed of sound when releasing the glide bombs at appropriate altitude far away from the gravity effects and with lower density air... at worst case scenario all those elements and factors will not increase the ranges of those glide bombs by no more than 30%-40% compared with the single unitary warhead depends on the payloads ... and instead of attacking a single target with a single unitary warhead those glide bombs capable of independently attacking different targets with their advanced targeting suits... Here, these bombs can independently negotiating or attacking a set of different targets distributed over large geographical areas or attacking the same target with multiple bombs in a surgically precise manner, whether using satellite guidance or those targets being illuminated by laser beams, wether chasing the mim-104 patriot system or any other air defense system or any high-value targets like military installations or industrial facilities... although theoretically (after excluding the possibilities of converting these small diameter bombs into stealth munitions), shooting these munitions is not an impossible task, but it is a very expensive approach, and therefore these small diameter glide bombs delivered by the obsolete extended family of the R17 Elbrus missile system could flood the area of operation or the area of responsibility of the patriot battery, with intensive shower🚿 of those smart inexpensive bombs... Anyway we hope very soon all of this will be put to a real test...
Some inaccurate info here. Patriot replaced HAWK not Nike Hercules. I was a HAWK radar mechanic in the 80s and was about to go through re-training as a Patriot mechanic before I left the Army in 87.
The complete lack of mid-ranged air-defence sounds jaw dropping, to be honest. Stingers won’t reach any mid-altitude drones, that you can produce by tens of thousands. So you literally have no way of reaching them - they’ll just fly above your head and keep slinging bombs and FPVs on you with complete impunity. No way - other than with your own planes. It says a lot on how much US relies on air dominance. Which is alright for someone like US - but what Taiwan is supposed to do in such a situation? Sounds like a giant hole in defences, just waiting to be exploited if nothing is done soon. What Taiwan even have against mid-altitude drones?
Then you have to be mildly impressed, Israel has an air defense that even the United States does not have operational so israel has developed simplified 3 layers of air defense 1 Iron Dome that operates against targets between 4-70 km 2 David's Sling which operates against targets between 40-300km Mach 7.5 this is a significantly better air defense system than the Patriot, this was developed because Israel was not satisfied with the performance of the Patriot system Finland has adopted David's Sling instead of Patriot this system, but not delivered yet 3 Arrow system that can act against targets out to 2400km (Arrow 3) different tasks but this reaches a speed of Mach 10+ This has been purchased by Germany as part of the European Sky Shield operational in 2025 the largest arms deal in Israel's history So Israel has roughly calculated 3 layers of the air defense system that takes down most things, even manoeuvrable, gliding craft / missiles that go at Mach 5 or faster this was shown by isrel on april 13 when they shot down 99% of the massive missile attack from iran fired 170 drones, over 30 cruise missiles, and more than 120 ballistic missiles toward Israel and the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights
Well done Battle Order, well done. Once again you really outdid yourself and this video about the MIM-104 Patriot is no exception, i really liked especially how you used well-timed America-related jokes during the explanation. Soldier of Team Fortress 2 would be absolutely proud for your inclusion of patriotic language.
And people wonder why I hate flying. Get mistakenly smacked by an anti-air system and you will watch your moment of expiration as you tumble down down to it.
Militär und Geschichte mit Thorsten send me here to leave a Sub :) Your scripts are very nice an i like the crossover content with Thorsten very much. Thank you!
In 1989/90/91 we were making 817 missiles per year. The issue was PAC-2 required hardware changes and was introduced in 1990. There wouldn't be the ability to make the new warheads in the US until December 1990, but luckily Raytheon had already contracted Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm to make them in Germany because they were gearing up to make full missiles. Things were already in the process of going so they were able to ship the warheads back to the US for full assembly. They ramped up PAC-2 production from 9 in August 1990 to 146 at its peak in January 1991 after they started making the full missiles in Germany as well. In recent years the US Army been procuring between 147 to 387 PAC-3s per year, 230-252 per year in the next few years.
Patriot unit sees a unit wiped out by enemy drones and CAS. "Aw sorry, I got important things to protect like generals and their lobsters. Should have seen those drones. Git gud noob."
IMO the french-italian Mamba system with Aster missiles is better for complex environments : Much more mobile and quick to set up, less logistical burden, 360 detection and engagement, from small drones and helicopters up to medium range ballistic missiles. But the Patriot retains the edge at long range and against longer ranged BM.
It's a dubious argument to try and compare air defense systems based on range. Thr US/NATO use a tiered defense structure with Patriot part of the LowerTier IAMDS. Ive never worked on the Aegis program and PAC-3 is near and dear to my heart but Aegis is fucking SkyNet. Its scary AF.
I didn’t really compare the ranges of different air defense systems, other than the show the difference of the BMD vs. ABT range of the PAC-2. I compared maximum engagement altitude and where along the ballistic trajectory they can make BMD intercepts.
