Talkernate History - Red Storm Rising 

Ludendorff was killed in 1918 as shown in the great historical movie Wonder Woman

"At least we don't name ships after our mother in law"~The commander of USS Reuben James, flashing a signal to his counterpart aboard HMS Battleaxe. A light moment in a serious, dark book. It's actually used in Military Academies as required reading.

A talkernate history episode less than a month after the last? A miracle!

50 kingfishes heading towards us? Huey Long rises

I love how you guys can go off on a wild tangent for 20 minutes and then, without warning, just jump back into the main topic of the video

I feel like you guys REALLY downplayed the buildup to the war. They spent like 15 chapters arguing and bickering over that.

You guys should look into the 1980s trend of a resurgent Japan, starting with "a Japan that can say no" and books like "The war in 2020"

This Book and Video Game caused me to join the US Navy and fly in P3C Orions as an AW acoustic Naval Aircrewman... Helped me be #1 in "A" school as I already had a concept of what to do, believe it or not. This is still my favorite book! One thing that was discussed in the book was Prairie Masker. That was Classified even when I joined in 1989.

What’s funny is that the pilot of the F-117 shot down over Serbia Dale Zelko is now friends with the LT Colonel that was commanding the missile launcher that shot him down.

Su-152s did see service into the 1980s but as self propelled artillery only

I remember hearing that in the Entente Plan 1919, they planned on using bombers to paradrop soldiers into battle in conjunction with massive tank advances with hundreds tanks

I love this alternate history story. Got me into Tom Clancy and alternate history. Always off topic as always you two.

I was in the US Army Infantry from 1987-1989 (Peace time, I know). This novel was to have taken place while we were actually serving and became required ready for us. The way we trained to fight the Soviets was exactly how this book had the war going. This novel and LOTR are my two favorite books of all time.

Never clicked on a video faster in my life

If you look into the declassified documents you will see that both the US and other countries operated on the basis of meeting force with force, they did not want to move away from a conventional armed conflict unless the other side did so first. Also, the Middle East was always considered a potential World War III battlefield and strategic moves were taken to defend and stop the Soviets in their invasion of the Middle East in such a scenario.

"POSITIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I positively hate this ----ing place." "NEGATIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I don't like this ----ing place." "SHORT ATTITUDE CHECK!" " ---- it!"

16:41 someone has been reading Hot War

Uh, you do realize that the "cartoonish villain" plot that leads to war in this book is pretty much the actual motivation for Japan attacking the US in WWII, right?

I'm going to suggest Future war: 198x, a "generally" realistic ova about the cold war going hot in 1988. If you haven't seen it yet I highly suggest it for another cold war video reference!

God I loved this book. I was really young, I didnt really understand what the weapon systems were but the human drama carried it for me. Larry Bonds Vortex and Red Phoenix are just as good

Hey guys you should read "The War in 2020" by Ralph Peter's. It's a work of speculative fiction that explores an alternate history where the Soviet union persists until 2020, but its horribly corrupt and about to collapse in the face of a massive uprising by its islamic population. The book mainly details the U.Ss attempt to prop up the Soviets as a part of a wider cold war with a resurgent japan It's full of crazy shit, like depictions of wholesale use of chemical weapons in a modern war, a flesh eating plague, and the torture of a computer (I'm fucking serious)

My body is ready For Tangents

Speaking as someone born after the end of the Cold War, the Tom Clancy-style thrillers have always caught my attention as something that the readers of the late 80s and early 90s thought at least somewhat plausible, and something that was really unique to the era and not really able to be replicated today (until recently when China was able to assert itself as a viable foil to unchallenged US global hegemony). If you’re looking for more work by Larry Bond, I highly recommend the novel “Vortex”, which was written in 1991 and takes place in a world where the attempts for South Africa to peacefully transition out of Apartheid completely and catastrophically collapse. It’s definitely a refreshing departure from the typical Cold War thrillers.

I hope you guys do Fatherland by Robert Harris sometime. Just to let you know, the movie doesn't do the book much justice. Mainly because the movie is a bit rushed and sets the point of divergence in 1944 after the Allies lose at D-Day (sound familiar?) while in the book, the point of divergence is that Operation Blue is successful and that Reinhard Heydrich survives assassination. Not to mention that the book has much more world building. What good I can say about the movie is that it looks good for a TV movie. Getting all of those SS uniforms probably wasn't cheap.

Can we have a discord?

50 missiles?, Thats a normal Tuesday for the Belkans. Also Ace Combat 7 has the whole satellite Warfare aspect to it. It very well executed the chaos and confusion caused by it

Red this book a couple of times, some years apart.....EPIC BOOK!.....Even had Red storm rising game on Commodore Amiga! lol

Couple points. Harpoon, well indeed having been adapted to a computer game, is more famous as a table top war game. Clancy used the Harpoon reference book well writing The Hunt for Red October, and in a 1986 interview at the NSA of all places, notes how useful it was, compared to most more clunky military texts he had access to at the time. He and Larry Bond used the Harpoon tabletop game, to simulate the war at sea shown in the book, hence why he credits Bond with assisting him with the book. Ronald Reagan began eating Jellybeans, as a way to quit smoking. When he was to be inaugurated in 1981, Goelitz produced Blueberry, a new flavor, to allow for an American flag display of beans to be present. During the Iran-Iraq war, several Iranian AH-1 Super Cobra helicopter gunships, engaged both Hind helicopters, AND at least three MiG-21 fighters. Last, well indeed Tom Clancy's game studio, Red Storm entertainment, had his assistance with some of it's first titles (Rainbow Six, Rainbow Six Rouge Spear, Ghost Recon) by 2002, Ubisoft was licencing games with the Tom Clancy brand (Indeed, his name by then was it's own brand, same reason it dwarfs the title of most of his books) and in the 2010s, they bought the rights to the name entirely, thus, today the series of ever less serious games that stain the Clancy name... (If you cannot tell, this irks me to no end)

A true sign of Sino-Soviet relations breaking down, the Chinese tell the Soviets, 'No means No!'

Keep up the good work! I definitely always looking forward to the next episode.

The main battle tank does everything. It's anti-tank, it's anti-materiel, it's anti-personnel, it's anti-EXISTENCE!!!!!!

Iceland and it's strategically important location was enough of a big deal that it was invaded by Britain in the spring of 1940 (at the same time as Germany was invading France). It was then occupied the USA a year later (6 months *before* Pearl Harbour and the official entry of the US into WW2).

I don’t know how you guys don’t have more subscribers. It’s amazing to me how much useless you guys know. You guys are so fascinating to listen to. I hope the videos keep coming.

I read that the Politburo was actually split on whether they should launch an attack on NATO. This was in the mid 80's when they went through 3 Secretary's General, and it was obvious the USSR was going to fail. I was in the RCN then, and recall the Soviet Navy was being more aggressive than normal, observing our operations. A TU-95 flew directly over our ASW task group at 300m, in the Barent Sea. A Kresta class cruiser steamed right through the middle of our TG while a RAS serial was underway. Both were very not normal actions.

SO HAPPY TO SEE YOU GUYS POSTED

Love this book, thanks fir taking the time to do this, Quick point on your grief with the motivations, the people that decided to go to war lost one third of their country's fuel and were attempting to buy their continued personal power with the lives of their citizens...so for politicians, not unlikely

Awesome! I just got the book as a Christmas gift and it’s awesome seeing this video! Thanks guys! SSN is also pretty decent too!

oh man, yes! y'all deserve more subs btw, always classic content!

Just one point, I just reread Red Storm Rising, and the justification they give for the lack of WMDs in this conflict is that a bunch of Warsaw Pact states straight up tell the Soviets they're not cool with their countries being left uninhabitable. I dont think its realistic, but maybe the authors had the increasing auonomy of the Warsaw Pact Nations in mind when they wrote this.

You guys should do Red Army, it’s a NATO-Soviet War from the Soviet perspective

Red Phoenix from Larry Bond is pretty good too, Korean War 2 electric boogaloo

So, reason behind the 116th Panzer Divisions jump in name: So, German 16th Infantry Division, after the Fall of France, it was motorized and split in 2. 1 part had an added tank regiment and became the 16th Panzer Division (first to reach Stalingrad), the rest formed the 16th Motorized Division. And then later in the war, the 16th Motorized was upgraded to an armored division. To carry over the traditions of the unit, it was named the 116th Panzer Division. Thats not 100% air tight, but...thats the best I got from what I know.

36:58 I see you're going through on the plan to make sure to talk about the Baltic states so that multiple World's Strongest Man champion Žydrūnas Savickas doesn't come after you.

You say it is an absurd notion they would do that than just buy oil, but they damn near poisoned a major piece of Europe without asking for help in Chernobyl.

I always like how you guys insert pictures of jokes you make into the video, gives me a laugh

Great guys. Tomorrow is my math exam and you upload another episode of my favourite podcast. Guess that's one hour less of studying.

talkernate history talking about WW1 balloon busting in a WW3 video love it.

the whole "ghost rider" thing is very interesting when you figure that no one, outside the military, knew what the F-117 was when the book was written.

You guys should 100% do an episode on Fear, Loathing and Gumbo. It's loooong, but imo the single best piece of alternate history made

Love to see you guys talk about another Cold War gone Hot but staying conventional with the game World in Conflict.

So I admit I’ve reread this book a number of times. You guys got a number of things wrong about my beloved book but you guys still did a great job with the commentary.

Yay! You guys are awesome!

I was working in India on work experience when they got ride of the 500, 1000 notes. It was mild chaos no one had cash for like 3 months , there were massive ques to deposit the old notes in the bank and even roots took 4 months before it got back to normal. It was such a mess because they have 3 hour notice and didn't even tell the banks. Had to wait for 1 hour to get 25 pounds worth of rupees because there was a 25 daily limit

Are you folks planning to cover Sir John Hackett's "The Third World War"/"The Third World World: The Untold Story"?

Always excited when you guys make videos hopefully this is not the last before the Corona virus kills us all

Damned, I have this book,I'll be back in a week once I finish the bastard. EDIT:Nah I can read that later, just lemme go through this real quick.

Hi, Had fun listing to this. I think its almost 20 years ago that I read the book. I read it in Swedish so perhaps they mistranslated some things. But I remember that I enjoyed the book. But as you guys mention the reason for invading the west and destroy NATO and then to invade the middle east for oil is so silly. They could have come with a better reason for it. IIRC Able Archer was close to trigger a war between the WP and NATO. But it was only a command post exercise. Regarding the best tank during WWII it think in all around I think it was some of the Sherman models that where the best tanks. And there were so many of them at least in the mid to later part of the war.

I love talkernate history sooo much

Taking Iceland makes sense as it's radar can provide early warning of backfire raids into the North Atlantic and planes based out of Keflavik would be able to intercept those Backfires. And the fear of a massive raid like that in the book is just the scenario is why the Navy built the F-14 and the Aegis ships. BTW, resources, the denial of access to resources like oil, tin, scrap metal are why Japan went to war. Iraq invaded Iran over a disputed oil field, Iraq invaded Kuwait because of a dispute over unpaid loans. And the idea behind the limited war is the same for the US, we wanted to keep any war in Europe to a limited conventional war. We did not want to attack Moscow directly for fear of escalating to a full on nuke exchange.

was my first book i read from Tom Clancy, and have reread it twice since then, i bought it back in 89 while deployed in Germany. before wall came down. was great read.

Y’all sound like the friends I was hoping to find in high school. But even among the nerds I was a little too much. Oh well. Subbed and will watch more.

Bradley is and is not an armored personnel carrier. It's considered a IFV or infantry fighting vehicle. Just as the BMP and BMD are considered the same.

Don't screw with 50 Kingfish (AS-6). Snark all you want but that Russian strike was totally bad news.

To be perfectly fair, they mention multiple times in the book, that members of the Politburo say the plan is absurd. It's just that the army is convinced that asking for help from the west would (Probably rightfully so) put them in the pocket of the west. I didn't seem to find the scenario all together that off topic for the late stages of the Soviet Union. Also a lot of the things, like the hover craft barges and stuff, are all actual Soviet plans for invasion. I don't know I guess I just didn't find it absurd. Also, the missiles, naval warfare now is actually almost all missiles. The F-19 was the fake Stealth Fighter that someone at Testors invented to sell models that everyone claimed was the REAL stealth fighter. So it's not based off the F-117, it's just something the Pentagon said existed that totally didn't.

Stopped watching after about 7 minutes. I loved RSR and just hearing over and over about how "dumb" it was made me feel like it was all a waste of time. Sure, the plausibility can be argued, but Tom Clancy's talent to put together those scenarios was mind blowing back then. To hear hear a couple guys who didn't even know what the code "vampire" meant trash it like that was not what I expected. Got better things to do with my time. Even writing this comment seems like a waste.

I served in an Army reserve unit whose mission (should the NATO scenario Red Storm Rising was based on happen) was to fly to Reykyavik and defend the radar and SOSUS networks from Russian Marines/VDV Airborne forces. Iceland was our eyes on the entire north Atlantic. Our units annual exercise was to fly to Keflavik and force March, under fire, all the way to Reykjavik. Royal Marines played the Soviet Marines and a German unit simulated VDV. We took the mission seriously because the Brits and Germans had skin in the European game.

Well, they also said that they just plain didn't have enough money to buy the amount of oil that they would require. Some might mistakenly think that the idea of, say, Soviets invading Iran was never an idea taken seriously -- but that is wrong. Those in doubt should examine "The Crisis Game," by the Kennedy School of Government, and that is something you can now ee on RU-vid. I remember that I saw it on VHS in college.

According to Wikipedia, Nizhnevartovsk is one of the wealthiest cities in Russia thanks to Western Siberian oil. EDIT: Because of this, if the nearby refinery was destroyed like it was in the story, the Soviet economy would be cleaved at the knees.

33:13 Showing M48 Patton's as he says they didn't use M48's XD For real, both the Germans and Americans used M48's in Patton. The British used the M24 Chaffee.

I got an idea, going to take a lot of reading but it's well worth it. Okay for what might be the ultimateWWIII story, we start with red storm Rising, it talks a lot about the Naval aspects and Air Force parts, then you read Team Yankee(Harold Coyle) which deals with the ground aspect especially the armor, then you move on to Red Army(Ralph Peters) which deals with the Soviet Ground Force view of the war and to wrap it all up, you read the Third World War August 1985( General Sir John Hacket) which is an overview of World War 3 told afterwards. So, what do you guys think?

One of the best books I have ever read. I was absolutely destroyed at work for a few days as I read it all in about 2 days and nights. Literally couldn't put it down and got about 2 hours sleep for 2 nights in a row! I have read it twice and I have the audibook as well and have given that a few listens.

Regarding chemical weapons, there is a whole detailed chapter about why, at the end, the Soviet donìt use it. But when things go South the Politburo orders the use of nuclear weapons just fine. It is not true that the Soviet don't want to use them.

I was watching your last video as this was uploaded

You changed the way you say “history in general” and my disappointment is immense and my day is ruined

first book from Tom that i read, it was very well done.

They say "vampire" because the incoming missiles show as a 'v' on radar displays

SSN is a fantastic book! The book reads like we actually engaged the Communist Chinese Navy off the Spratly Islands. Highly recommend it!👍

24:40 From my understanding, the most accurate tank rounds nowadays are fin-stabilized, and apparently those don't work with rifled barrels, leading to the strange situation where rifled tank cannons are no longer the accurate option

I don’t know if there’s necessarily that much to dig into for an episode but if you guys are familiar with the game World in Conflict it’s almost a similar premise to this, about a NATO vs USSR world war in Europe and the US in 1989/ early 1990. It’s a really good game

You did a Kaiserreich episode. Now, you've gotta do a Fuhrerreich episode.

The Soviet problem with buying ANYTHING is the Soviet ruble was not convertible. Western corporations dealing in the Soviet Bloc had to take payment in product - Pepsi, for instance, took payment in vodka.

There is also the game Cold Waters, the spiritual successor to Red Storm Rising, the game. It is not as in depth and is more accessible to players new to submarine combat or late cold war machines of war.

Great episode. A few things. Spoilers follow. 1. Iceland was a legit target for the USSR because it was the middle piece of the GIUK gap which supported the SOSUS line. This was a sonar line acting as a tripwire across the North Sea. 2. The guy trapped on Iceland with the Marines - Edwards? - doesn't really do too much Red Dawnish stuff, though the Soviets *think* that's what they're doing, with one exception when they tangle with some Russian soldiers who have just killed some civilians. The side plot with the Icelandic girl was perhaps a bit much. Maybe Clancy had a crush on Bjork once upon a time. 3. I think the oil refinery that is destroyed is supposed to be near Manhattan-sized, hence the reason its destruction is so crucial. 4. Clancy more or less copied Hackett's WW3 scenario in "The Third World War". In Hackett's book, the Soviet plot to attack the West is based more on 70's geopolitics: the impression of Western weakness around the world and Soviet supremacy in ground equipment, coupled with some dastardly Soviet meddling - South Africa goes up in revolution as does Mexico - emboldens the Politburo into believing that Western Europe can be cowed if West Germany is swallowed up. Hackett was trying to raise awareness of what he perceived as critical shortcomings of NATO and the UK armed forces. Also, his WW2 experience shows: Britain is attacked from the air - conventionally - the same way it was attacked by the Germans in the Blitz years. I would love to see you guys cover Hackett's book BTW. However, where Hackett depicts the war going nuclear, Clancy does not. Coyle, writing Team Yankee, does Hackett's war point for point including the same nuclear targets. Clancy does give a pretty good reason why chemicals are not used, however [fear of the GDR dropping out of the war if chemical fallout caused huge civilian losses on the 'wrong' side of the border]. Coyle and Hackett have the cork on chemicals fully popped. Short version: Hackett's book pretty much set the template for WW3 stories in the 80's. 5. Finally, about the oil and the nukes: the ending is I suppose a little silly since the West immediately agrees to sell the Russians the oil they needed in the first place. But, FWIW, it's a new non-Soviet government. The young Turks in the Politburo and the Army refuse to resort to nuclear weapons. When the revelation about the Kremlin plot becomes more widely known, the Army actually removes the Soviet government; so, technically, it's a new ball game where the post-Soviet government negotiates the peace, like how Wiemar negotiated the end of WWI.

Rewatching this three months after the invasion of Ukraine, doesn’t seem so unlikely now

I don't know if this has been recommended to you guys before, but you should try to get your hands on a copy of If It Had Happened Otherwise. There's quite a few good stories in there that I'd love to hear you guys talk about. Anyways, love your show!

If you liked the 'nitty gritty tactical crap', you might consider taking a look at Michael Palmer's "The War that Never Was". It's a very similar premise: the Soviets invade Europe in the late-80s. However, it takes a different approach to portraying it. For one, it takes a much 'harder' approach to the conflict; no fake aircraft or unfeasible soviet invasions of Iceland. It's also a lot broader. It takes very little time covering the fighting in central Europe, leaving that to the huge amount of books that came before it. It uses those pages instead to develop many other fronts, like Scandinavia and the Balkans, as well as the Mediterranean with its fighting between Syria and Israel, and diplomatic efforts between the US and Egypt and the USSR and Libya. The US bombs Vietnam while North and South Korea whack at each other. The US and Japan take on the Soviet Pacific Fleet. It even touches on a dilemma with Castro, who doesn't declare war when the rest of the fighting kicks off. It makes the war feel like a "World War", which is something neglected by a lot of its peers. The cause and end of the war are left unexplained, which is a tad silly, but allows it to avoid some of the pitfalls of similar fiction. It isn't perfect. The prose, while adequate, isn't amazing and the fighting is a lot more tell than show. Characters take a backseat to the conflict. Few show up repeatedly, and while characterization isn't completely lacking, it's very rare, and is used to service the conflict rather than the other way around. It probably isn't the best choice to read if the technical military drivel of Red Storm Rising was a bit heavy for you, but it's still a pretty great book. It makes the war feel like a real event whereas Red Storm Rising often feels like a contrived set-piece, which is funny, because the World War III in The War that Never Was is actually an elaborate in-universe wargame.

My all time favorite book

Keep it up, kings.

I thought that, for the submarine warfare portion of the book, that the Soviets' quality of HK subs were evidence of decline. This book, Hunt for Red October, and Debt of Honor are my favorites.

Next idea for talkernate history episode idea the 2020 commission on the North Korean nuclear attack upon the United States

Red storm rising was a Larry Bond book. The only thing Clancy had any input on was the Iceland part. If you ready ANY Larry Bond book this becomes painfully obvious. It follows the same formula as pretty much all of his other books. Clancy's name was put on the cover only for marquee appeal after the success of Hunt for Red October.

Note that generally in wargaming, as was done for this book by all accounts, particularly with the rules written in the 70s & 80s the side which first uses NBC weapons is penalised so heavily the generally lose, which is why they aren't used in this scenario.

The blueberry jelly bean flavor was made specifically for Ronald Reagan

Talkernate History, can you guys do an episode about Robert Harris's Fatherland? It doesn't go into that much detail about how history diverged, but it does go into great detail describing a Europe ruled by Nazis, and I think it's probably the most realistic alternate WW2 novel I've personally read. Would love to hear your take on it!

not all parts of this video aged equally well.

Would you guys do one about the Turtledove series about the war that came early? I just read it and it seems not even plausible with some of the things that happen in it.

You sneer at the scenario but, FWICR, it is actually quite realistic for 1980s Cold War.

Honestly last Blood was much better than most think, in fact the biggest problem Critics have with it is that it's "racist" to Mexicans, even though it was meant to show how terrible of a situation it was down there, trust me I've met Mexicans who and other people who have been in cartel dominated cities and they were all like "it's about as racist as black panther."

the PC video game Red Storm Rising was great in simulating the modern submarine warfare against e.g. Soviet carrier groups...

Only a month in between episodes? My lord is that legal?