I dunno, I feel like in the pug meta especially nerfing tanks while simultaneously asking more from healers is a recipe for disaster. It's just going to amplify any shortcomings in either.
that's not really what's happening though. The whole goal is to make healers need to heal more, its not asking more from them, its jsut changing *what* we are asking from them, personally i think the main purpose of healers should be healing, not dpsing but healing once in a blue moon on the side. maybe in raids this might be a thing, but its easy for them to balance the raids around that.
@@Tantakugames In low keys, when im gearing alts i already see heals not pressing their damage buttons and spamm healing. They already cant keep up. This wont change much in the range where i am playing 13-18 but it will change everything in +7
@@Rooachie You said it in the first 3 words, "In low keys". Everyone could be op as fuck and people would still manage to fuck up "in low keys", its the nature of the content.
@@veppy4952 if youre a new Player or want to practice, while having Zero Fun, do you keep playing? I dont care much for noobs but every game needs new players to stay alive.
@@KC-py5vq Yes they should. It's what enables fun pulls for everyone else. If you want to go back to boring pack-by-pack dungeon gameplay then fine, but that shit is awful.
@@dragonetti1 no, you didn't understand his post. Slushy said healers STILL rely on tanks CURRENTLY. So why only tanks get the privilege of playing M+ like a singleplayer game?
Yes and no. Here's a simple breakdown of how all of this has gone down in the game. >Tanks have to rely on healers to keep them up >Over time tanks become self sufficient sustain machines >This causes healers to become less challenged and instead are judged on the damage they can output instead of how effectively they can heal >blizzard sees this and to compensate shifts the danger to the rest of the group >because group damage intake has gone up defensives creep up in power >healers become less challenged AGAIN and are once again judged on the damage they can output instead of how effectively they can heal >Tanks get nerfed and kite meta arrives >blizzard sees this and to compensate shifts the danger to the rest of the group >because group damage intake has gone up defensives creep up in power >healers become less challenged AGAIN and are once again judged on the damage they can output instead of how effectively they can heal You can see the pattern, Blizzard is playing a zero sum game of group survivability. As soon as the tank danger goes down, Healers have to do less healing, and they make the group danger go up. When group danger goes up they buff defensives. When they buff defensives, healers have to do less healing and they cycle begins anew. At this point, and as a life long healer main myself its heresy, it feels like we just shouldn't have healers and everyone should just have self sustain. At least at that point you can't flame the healer, only yourself.
As a tank main, I don't mind tank nerfs as much as nerfing both. DF s1-s3 I switched to healer because tank no longer felt like a privilege for m+ queuing. Idk if it's different in s4, but I really don't want them to move people away from both roles. I hope it works as they hope thru people enjoying dmg being less spiky. That's hard to anticipate from just patch notes. They could always nerf the content hard together with this.
Tanks were playing a single-playing game for most of Dragonflight, letting the other team members fend for themselves. They do need to be brought down to earth a little.
Especially since our tank healing and externals are the weakest part of our kit. Thankfully they've done a lot to prop up healing surge and some recent buffs to healing wave will help but we'll see how s1 goes
tank's sustain is getting nerfed like 10-15%, idk how that's going to translate into you just having to spam tanks 🤣 people love doomerism. Also all healers got buffed today
@@CB38096 Everyone is overestimating the tank nerfs. Watching beta and it's not nearly as noticeable as everyone making it out to be. They still need to tune dungeons for sure but the damage profiles look a little better for sure.
@@captmarvel1967it’s way less fun tho, and you are probably watching pro level tanks playing with PRO HEALERS. Now imagine when you get the average mouth breathing pug l healer… there were many times when playing pally (who needs abit of small heal assistance) where the healer had healed himself more than me the tank ffs lol. (And I’m talking like 27-29 keys)
You are absolutely spot on in this subject, Dratnos. I really hope Blizzard listens to you. These changes going through will be catastrophic for the game, so many tanks will quit and it snowballs to others quitting because they can't find groups for stuff. What a farce.
as a healer the very last thing I want to be doing is casting healing surge on a blood dk. Like that is just miserable. I think any changes to the tank-healer paradigm should move *away* from me casting healing surge on a blood dk, not towards.
I personally dislike this for tanks. A large part of skill expression for me playing a tank, is making the healer have to heal me the least. I find the most satisfaction about taking the least amount of damage possible and keeping the flow of a dungeon smooth. I hope this doesn’t make tanks very squishy and feel weak…
IDK how long you have played tank, but as a healer not having to heal even bad tanks and damage only coming from avoidable damage on dps is the primary reason healing feels so drastically different than previous expansions. the lvl if self sustain all tanks have in dragonflight is far and above pre legion expansions. No one wants to get nerfed, but tanks taking damage is better for the game overall.
@@technicolorsoultheory3924 I’m actually a healer main. I play all roles however. I can confidentially say that if tanks don’t feel strong, they will no longer be fun to play. None of this has been tested so it may not be a huge deal. But I’m all for us healers healing more, just not at the expense of another roles fun. And I definitely don’t want to be spam healing a tank all dungeon.
@@DrJohnpieceeverything is relative. Everyone’s felt bad at the shadowlands hp squish and yet within a few weeks no one cared. Same thing here. It will feel bad for a week. What you said about trying to take the pressure off the healer as much as possible is even MORE important now. Skill expression will go up imo. A good tank will take drastically less damage than a bad tank. I guarantee you as a tank, if you are good, you will get more compliments from healer and friend requests if you are good than you do right now
@@technicolorsoultheory3924 ? Did you just not play during shadowlands/BFA? Groups definitely take more unavoidable damage throughout DF than in those expansions, and healing is far more necessary than it was. If you're only comparing them to "pre-legion expansions" legion was like 8 years ago. As Dratnos said, people can play classic if they want to experience that style of gameplay. Retail going back to that shit sounds miserable.
@@Shannendetro I definitely hope you’re right. This was just my first shock reaction to it. If good tanks can still skill express through mitigating damage, I’m all for it.
There are very few moments where this is true, but it does happen.. where the group is taking lethal damage, and so is the tank. Some of the healers, cannot do optimal single target focussed healing, and aoe healing at the same time. Most do both at a reduced rate... but what this means, is that there will be more occasions where us healers will have to say "sorry I couldn't keep you up, the tank has prio or we guaranteed wipe"
> We have given every dps class 15 def abilities and 200 passive dr modifiers through talents/hero talents > We have created this dumb ass unhealable doing 3 hp bars oneshot mechanics to force players to use these abilities we have given them > We now have healers just existing out there for a couple of healing checks in dungeons > We now OBVIOUSLY nerf tank sustainability instead of redesigning def abilities OR redesigning damage patterns OR giving healers proper dps rotations so that they have something to do OR doing whatever else because fucking afk dumping holy lights/regrowths/whatever into tank is peak healer gameplay everybody has always wanted. > The tanks have also ALWAYS asked to be dependent on some healer monkey that might be asleep at the wheel > Now that we have done a great job, everyone should be happy. No tank/healer shortage can be forseen. Bruh like what is going on in the heads of people responsible for these decisions. It is like that first iteration of m+ where they intentionally kept the worst affixes, who even comes up with this stuff and how on earth does it end up being seen by general public.
yeah insane mental leaps blizz goes through to justify a change because they're scared of some strange random ideas. think they said in an interview they wanna keep the 4-6 defensives for open world content. in what world is that where you need 4-6 defensives?? people who only farm that content very likely dont even use them lmao
It's been obvious to me for years that very few developers actually play the game beyond a pretty casual level or outside of organized groups. At least not the ones making the final decisions. They have a bad habit of "recognizing" problems that aren't there or that they created and lacking the fundamental understanding of how the game actually works that's necessary to make appropriate fixes.
anyone remember sl s1? these changes will get reverted otherwise all those people praising tanks relying on healers will cry so loud once they realize that they have to wait in their pug queue forever... lol
Announcing such big changes with only a month to expansion launch is never good. They gonna need to fine tune every one of the dungeons to achieve their design philosophy of tanks and healers. And knowing blizzard , they got more chance to fucked up than get things right. Don’t know man , feels skeptical
I feel like there has to be some sort of balance in tanks being self sufficient. I tank 15-16 keys and while I understand this isn't to level keys, it does feel odd that I can just sit and tank pulls forever as the rest of the group dies and runs back. Feeling like you have control over living and dying is good though, its a hard balance to hit imo. The big question is if they actually balance damage intake like they say. As a side note. Overall the skill floor and ceiling of tanking should probably be closer for the overall health of the role. When I go help friends heroic raid by dpsing and at least half of the wipes are due to tank deaths, when you should almost never by dying as a tank in heroic raid. Then compare that with me being able to sustain forever in a 15 key, you can literally feel that skill disparity and how it probably keeps more people from trying the tank role.
I think this is a winning comment. It feels like tanks are completely disconnected/uncoupled from the group. Tank stand there and get hit in face. Indefinitely. I can see how that is fun to the tank, but it’s not really a multiplayer experience, imo.
While I do prefer having to heal tanks more, they should fix healer gameplay first cause adding a 4th bar to play whack a mole with isn't helping anyone
I agree, it's no trouble healing instead of doing dps but if the damage profile is going to stay the same this is just going to make a healer's life harder and make tanks get frustrated when the healer can't keep up because they are healing the dps.
Yea...the "I take bigger hits than any other tank, but unless it's an oneshot or I run out of RP NOTHING can ever kill me no matter what" is the entire reason to ever pick up blood. While I kinda agree removing double, triple or even quadruple dipping on the same damage event for MASSIVE death strikes made blood a balance nightmare it's litteraly the entire reason to play this spec...with this nerf death strike becomes a VERY shitty (cuz reactive instead of proactive) shield block.
And how many tanks know how to tank? How many DHs I've seen getting one shot because they let a defensive down? It is one sided today where the entire group depends on the tank, it is extremely fair that the group can now rely on TWO players instead of the tank only..
@@Gordonfreems The thing is, now if your tank is shitty your key is compleatly bricked, but shitty dps or healer is compleatly managable. After the changes if the tank is shitty key is still compleatly bricked, but now aslo if a tank is a living God, but healer is shitty key is bricked anyway cuz no tank, even bloody blood DK can't survive alone, so ammount of compleatly bricked keys will at least double
You top percent players kinda joke about the kiting meta thing(I don't mean this as derogative to you guys) because you are on a different level than most and will be able to do it just fine if it comes to it, but for us middle class players and especially in pugs, that's a role killer for a lot of us. I have been enjoying tanking again in S4 and was looking forward to play other tank classes as well, but if the meta switches to Kiting, Tanking is no longer fun to me, and I will be the first to admit, I most likely don't have the skill to do the stutter step kiting and the other advanced techniques and many other with have the same thoughts. This leads to a really bad shortage of tanks which is already a major problem... I really hope Blizzard doesn't let kiting become meta. If they do, it looks like I'll be back to a DPS Main and a Healer Alt.
He says this could lead to a lower number of willing tanks, but I'll go one further and say it can also lead to fewer numbers of willing healers. I guess it depends on how it works out.
The latter part of Dragonflight was a good example of making healing no fun, so we ran into the lack of healers queueing. This time around, it’s time to scare off tank players.
yep, also creates a bigger barrier to entry to both roles which in turn does even more of what ur point was(less tanks/healers) the ppl praising this change are dps players who dont realize their Q times just got alot fuckin longer most likely because this is a very shitty change, if you thought ur healers werent dpsing enough, then this will be much worse, removing/nerfing defensives and adding more responsibilities to healers and making tanking harder(if you got a bad healer you are beyond fucked now) i really wonder who at blizzard approved this. has to be someone who only watches top 1%ers play
@@zRidZz Apparently you didn’t play Dragonflight. They made an extremely stupid move to make healing tremendously hard when they doubled mob/boss health and player health while keeping healing ability the same. That caused a severe shortage of healers. Now in TWW, they’re going to do something similar. They’re leaving healing the same, increasing health by 60% but making tanks squishy. With the two combined xpacs, we will have both a healer and tank shortage. Your take has no context as if Dragonflight never happened. I’ve talked with other healers and they’re convinced both tanks and healers will be hard to find.
I feel like when healing, if the tank can't just manage themselves, I need to heal them when there's no other group damage instead of them just living entirely on their own. So at times I just heal the tank instead of doing anything interesting while the rest of the group doesn't take any damage. And as a tank I don't want to rely on the healer, it's way more fun if I'm responsible for myself whilst the healer is responsible for everyone else
I already had this discussion on acherus and skyhold. If tanks will feel they are at the mercy of healers there wont be tanks left to fill groups. Im not gonna rely on others to stay alive.
Same. My specs to choose from were Brewmaster , Windwalker and Ret... I tended towards monk but if I can't rely on Brewmaster to solo stuff for me, I will not even bother... So no tank for me.
I was so hyped to play Brewmaster in TWW but if I die to Rares again (like in BfA) because Stagger does not work with slow damage and when you lack heal, they simply outdamage you... I'll just play Ret I guess ...
Seems like a positive direction to me, ive played healer, tanks and dps in dragonflight and playing tank is boring because you can survive basically anything while killing mobs/bosses while the rest of the group is dead, healing feels bad because people either die in 2 seconds or just never die at all. This is a good direction for the game, making it more about the full group rather than either or. I enjoy healing when i get to heal everyone, i dont want to be a dps support, i want to be the reason the group stays alive
this is the most level-headed reaction ive seen so far, and its nice tbh. i feel like u did well at keeping it relatively neutral-ish. with that said, man did they really make tanks waaaay more enjoyable with these notes /s. nerfing self healing is totally fine and understandable, and if they did the change to death strike that u mentioned then that would be okay too and probably more fun and engaging. nerfing the defensives and overall tankiness of tanks is not the right direction, now not only will they take more damage, but they wont be able to do much about it and that is not fun. they should be buffing the defensives, especially active mitigation spells and talents if they are going to reduce the self healing. well thats a lot of crap from me, lol sry for the long post. thanks for the vid.
The changes were already made 1 day ago and i have now seen like 10-20 videos about it. My only cocern about this change is probably forcing some not very great spot healing healing specs to spam heal tanks. I feel like it would be insanely annoying for specs like Discipline Priest. Amazing video as always Dratnos!
Blizzard is absolutely fucken terrible at class balancing so. They're nerfing tanks but then say oh its because tanks are doing keys without healers. No. DEMON HUNTERS are doing keys without healers. But now, all tanks gotta now be nerfed because Blizz is absolute trash at balancing the game. Playing the game and having to kite is absolutely awful. Single handedly tanked (no pun intended) my opinion of this xpac.
If they want to bring the self healing down so the healer has to look your way occasionally I'm ok with that, just don't touch the DR or buff it in tandem. Then your damage intake can be a slow burn that you can't just heal back so your healer has to be involved but only plays a support role in you living instead of the pass/fail decider
I undetstand this must feel bad from a tanks perspecive, as a healer I’m not sure what to think, but I do know I prefer healing a tank that takes steady dmg compared to healing dps that require instant full heal or they die.
This is not for you in particular, but can we stop being naive? You are gonna get both now. Trash abilities will not go away. They still scale and they will still tend to one shot the dps and the healer.
It's already super hard to get good tanks (you end up taking bad/undergeared tanks and then depleting) and hard to get a good healer (you end up taking bad/undergeared healers and then depleting) so........I don't see how making it less fun and harder for tanks and healers is going to benefit the pugging community. Like, come on.
nerfs do not mean less fun. being self sufficient in an mmo is bad design. keys are a team sport, having immortal tanks and dps healers is not the way to go.
@@technicolorsoultheory3924immortal tanks are 100% beneficial to the community. Immortal tanks provide huge pulls, huge pulls are fun, fun is good for community. Killing 3 mobs after 4 mobs then waiting for healer to drink because some classic dev walked into retail department with their bright ideas on tank/healer gameplay is peak degenerate gameplay. Besides, tanks already have to learn the routes then do them, keep aggro, kick, cc, keep def abilities ulyime etc.
@@nickandreyev766 Immortal tanks are not 100% beneficial. You get M+ tanks that ignore the team and let them corpse-walk all day. Also, huge pulls are mind-numbing, not fun.
@@Aggrofool then just don't die so you don't have to corpse walk back, duh. Seriously tho, I have never been in a situation where 4 out of 5 players just mindlessly throw themselves into a pack, die and then repeat while tank just stands there watching. And I don't really understand what you need to pull and do for this scenario to happen. The only thing that comes to mind is 1st pull in nokhud when all of you die when the big centaur cast goes off, but that has nothing to do with tank survivability. As for big pulls, the first lust pull in soleahs gambit was the most fun I've had in m+ for a while, you pull a shit ton of mobs, but don't really have to watch out for 15 different casts and only have to do a bit of cc, kicks and maybe 1 defensive. If you want to just kill 3 defias pirates, then drink for 30 seconds before pulling 2 more - there is a version of game for you. The corpse walks are still there tho, and the tank still will not be running with you cus he's afk lying inside waiting for a res while blaming the healer
I honestly think there is a world where healing a tank is fun. We just think of Tank HP as flip flopping like crazy and every heal into a tank is basically wasted. But if the tank slowly loses HP and you have to get it back up over a period of time, it could be incredible fun. In this world you have to actually think about mana, about how much what ability heals and how to chain them etc. At the moment we basically spam group heals bc if someone is at 80% hp he is pretty much dead the next .5 seconds. Its just stupid as it is now, so everything else is probably better.
I find it funny that you think it will be any different. M+ scales. That situation will eventually happen again. But, now you can't top people fast enough and the tank will have to kite to survive. Why do people believe what blizzard says? Sometimes a dream is a dream and there is no way to turn it into reality. Not without dramatic changes to the whole game. They are chasing the dream of vanilla when trash didn't have mechanics. We moved away from that for a reason. It's alarming people at blizzard are also blinded by nostalgia to understand we moved from it for a reason. It was boring.
Ok guys, let me tell you 2 things about the tanking experience: We're playing tank role to feel like a unkilable beef pack-positioning guy. We're playing tanking 'cause we don't wanna relly on someone else to survive. So it's simple, let us have fun tanking. Plus, if you're hurting tanks, you're hurting healers. Hurting tanks and healers ruins the game, specially for new and casual players.
What makes this worse, is blizzard is literally deleting feedback on the beta forums. I was excited for tanking. Probably won't even bother to tank now.
Huge L from Blizzard, tanks are lacking in the game, this will end up with even fewer people picking up the tank role. Its also a huge dump on Healers who also is in a horrible place now with group dmg allready being insane and single target heals feeling like hitting someone with a wet sponge. HUGE L.
Blizzard you want to vary the healing experience? Then roll it into your dungeon design to alternate areas of the key that are dangerous for 3DPS/heal or dangerous for tanks.
Its annoying because i was genuinely gonna come back for TWW, but all these last minute changes are just exacerbating every single reason why I left in the first place. Finding groups outside of guilds is now going to be truly impossible or unimaginably toxic as every tank asks for more heals and every healer cannot keep up until eventually 4 million DPS are waiting their turns for the 14 tanks and 9 healers that still play.
The fix to that was in encounter design imo. There are many other ways to change the game to take away the one shot dynamic, at least for unavoidable damage. Yes increase the healthpools to make healing feel less spikey... but the tanks becoming healing sponges was not the fix imo.
Well, try to do the frost boss in Halls of Infusion without a healer. Enemy design just needs some more rot damage, not just nerfing healers, tanks and defensives from everybody.
Only the last point of health matters. Damage is a healer mechanic. These changes are going to effect healers a lot more than they do tanks, and it's worrying that Blizzard doesn't seem to understand that.
I feel like this is practically the same S1 nerf where they increase player HP, but increase Mob Damage. We've increased hp, but decreased tank healing and survivability. Which isn't going to remove burst at all. It just shifts the goal posts once again. It's the same scenario as the first with a different variable. WTF are they doing?
If tanks are ticking down but can stay in with enough attention from the healer, then I would guess that the right call in most comps is to stay in rather than kite (tank damage + ground AoE). That would assume though that this is actually how it plays out; but I would assume that these changes make tanks unhealable in a bunch of situations
Players: DKs are the most fun tank to play because of it's play style. Make the other tanks fun. Blizzard solution: Let's make Blood DKs play more similar to the other tanks so all tanks are boring.
i have played Bdk my entire wow life , if this make it to live servers i will simply not gonna buy TWW (nore should any other Bdk main if they have the slightest amount of self respect ) , these changes KILL Bdk without any doubt
Apparently not a popular opinion but I agree with blizzard on those tank nerfs, as sub 10 healer I often feel useless and have to focus on dps I chose to log in healer to mostly heal
I'm glad Blizzard is taking strides towards restoring a time honored tradition of always (correctly) blaming it all on the healer. So happy that Blizzard sensed the vibe shift and are bringing back bullying.
For me personally as someone who doesn't do the highest keys, these seem like ok changes. I will probably still enjoy tanking and I expect/hope to feel a lot more useful healing dungeons, which atm feels really bad, often not even beating the tank on HPS.
I think(?) they're looking to reduce the Healers need to dps especially in keys by increasing healing requirements, forcing us to heal tanks a lot more might not fix that. Making dps unable to sustain themselves is the healthier option. I doubt most tanks want to go back to kite meta.
Hate the DK change, DS is what makes DK fun.... and this change will make it feel as a meh heal... and DKs will feel less of a unique thing, and more like a bad Warrior
The situation is that it’s not just the fact that blizzard tends to not really get balancing correct ever, but the fact that the time frame window is ridiculously small. These changes are intellectually incompetent and delusional for blizzard to think that they are going to be able to get it done to any level of success due to how little time they have till launch, and when you take into account how good blizzard is at balancing so many specs at the same time. This is literally a monstrous level of incompetence on blizzards part, they should’ve saved this for a later patch so that it had more time to cook in the oven and smooth these changes out behind the scenes… Whoever’s in charge of giving the go ahead to do this should be fired. I guarantee you this is going to be horrid unless they have some like super AI to crunch numbers and balance this shit out and help blizzard that we don’t know about behind the scenes that they’re using that’s like god mode, Einstein, mathematical, balance, artificial intelligence god mode… If people come back to experience the world soul saga after time away from the game and they find that balance is completely broken, because the morons decided to flip how balance has been done for certain classes for over the past decade and a half on their head, barely a few days more than a month out from launch people are going to quit and think that blizzard is on a level of mental retardation that has not been seen for thousands of years within the Homosapien species…
HP went up by 60%, WoG went up by 10%.......... it already did a tiny fraction of your health, now it heals by 110/160 68% as much, or rather that this change was a 32% nerf to WoG for Prot
healers already complain enough about having too much to do. Now you're asking them to heal a health bar that goes up and down like a happy couple on a Saturday night
@@buysomerice Yeah and when they made the % hp/damage changes in df season 1/2 they said they would make damage events less spiky. They didn't. Having concrete changes right now with the intent to change something to facilitate that in the future is not a good sign. That future change usually either doesn't happen or does not go far enough.
@@iamme625 Havent played the beta much. But currently in DF tanks and healers are incredibly boring and unrewarding for both Tanks and Healers. If the Beta is making them more engaging it sounds like blizz is sticking to the game plan and im looking forward to it.
I think this is blown completely out of proportion. There's other options than never needing healing (current) or having to kite. Using externals on a tank has been the "wrong" way to play since forever.
yeah. i already hate the "you have no secondary stats at the start of an expansion" philosophy from blizzard, so i always skip tanking in season 1 of every xpac. skipped it in bfa, didn't play SL at all, and skipped s1 of DF tanking too. only play my mage in season 1. these changes just cement my "not bothering with my blood dk til at least season 2" philosophy. blizzard L.
A lot of the opinions seem like current retail opinions. I think I remember many expansions ago where tank healing was the main function of the healer. Dps healing was mostly just required if their positioning was bad or there was predictable rot damage.
Good too see another person on the doomer tank talk. Another way to look at this instead of tanks aren't going to play the game anymore is new players might actually try tanking after these changes because they were intimidated before by dying if you make 1 mistake to slowing dying over time
As is, a tank who uses their mitigation properly doesn't need to get healed. One that does not use their mitigation correctly does need a healer... now a tank that doesn't use their mitigation will just be a huge pita for the healer, escalating exponentially as the key levels get higher. They need to be making those roles LESS impactful. You can carry a bad dps. You can't carry a bad tank or healer.
@reviewthereviewer7034 it isn't right now but they literally just said they want to change it so of course it isn't that way yet. Nobody wants to get 100-0'd, so if their goal is rot, it's a good goal
Honestly I'm fine with healing tanks, on paper. In a good group I feel I can manage healing the tank more often, though problems arise when the group isn't good. Something I like about the current system is that, if a tank dies, odds are it's their own fault (or something didn't get kicked). Now, even if it's their own fault, they have room to blame the healer, even if only in their own head. Or a good tank can have a run ruined by a bad healer, unable to keep them alive even in an easy pull.
This seems like one of the few things Blizzard needs to just accept…a massive amount of the player base hates having to rely on healers. Saying that tanks and dps having a lot of ways to keep themselves alive diminishes the role of healers is true, but it doesn’t make it bad. I still have never seen a good reason why some comps not needing a healer is a bad thing. As Dratnos pointed out, so much of the talk around healers and tanks is based on super sweaty groups. If there are players good enough to do high keys without a healer, why punish them for being good? There are plenty of paladin/druid/priest players that can’t do huge dps, stay alive and offheal. Those that can shouldn’t be punished for being that good. And bear in mind, there are plenty of dps players on the other side of the spectrum that won’t use their defensives at all. The truth is there exists a massive skill gap in WoW and punishing good players so bad players don’t get upset isn’t going to help things. Making things worse for 4 people to make 1 person in a key happier isn’t a good idea. Making things worse for 16/17 or more people in a raid to make 3-4 players happier isn’t going to make things better. The end result will just be players being even more elitest when it comes to inviting tanks and healers and a ton more resentment and toxicity. If you ain’t the absolute best meta spec, you won’t get invited.
I know each person wants to be self sufficient and overpowered. I know everyone thinks nerfs instantly mean less fun or worse gameplay. the truth is it is literally an mmo. tanks are needed to hold aggro and take hits, healers are needed to keep health up and dps are needed to kill mobs before the tank and healer run out of resources. for too long in wow each person in a group has been pushed to be more self reliant and treated as their own ecosystem of defensives, damage and healing. the skill gap in this game will only get smaller if their is selective pressure for people to get better. the social fabric of this community will only get stronger if we rely on each other more.
I've never met a new player that wants all the responsibility for success on their personal skill so yes these changes should make tanking a team effort instead of good tank immortal and bad tank unhealable.
Bdk needs a rework if they are going this route since their changes tonit just plain suck. Our damage intake is not smoother making it hard for healers to heal us in time.
As a tank main, any patch where kiting is the standard expected gameplay im just not gonna take part in m+. As Dratnos said in the video, i dont pick up a sword and shield to run from mobs. I guess unless they somehow change their view on tanking, i'll just be doing weeklies and raid tanking and play other games instead of grinding m+.
They literally said in the post they do not want tanks to kite. They're just going to make them actually fun to play and take actual thought instead of being a brain dead completely self sufficient unkillable dynasty warriors hack n slash God. It's a team game, lame when a role doesnt need a team. They're fixing it. Good thing
@@gohomehero They made tanks less fun to play. Take paladin they made wings last shorter and have less cooldown reduction meaning you see it less often a nerf to fun.
@@gohomehero it's clear as day you either dont play tank or you do +10s, nothing wrong with that but dont bother spreading bs if thats the case. They say in the post they dont want us to kite but all the changes mean kiting will be the optimal thing to do. I suggest you rewatch the first part of the video.
Can someone correct me if my thinking is wrong here for the Blood DK changes please? Say you're getting hit consistently by an M+ pack, and one of the mobs in there, an enforcer or brute of some type, has an absolute truck of a hit that's coming up in 3-4 seconds. Your health; from consistently tanking the pack is lowered and your Runic Power is high, runes at 1-2. The logical choice that's coming up is looking more and more like a Death Strike, but since you can only heal each damage event one time, your consistent damage intake values are going to get healed before the massive hit comes in, depleting your RP. Based on the size of the big hit, you would ideally like to eat that large hit that's coming in, so you can heal for a ton more after, effectively having to let it go through. Am I incorrect in thinking this incetivizes LETTING yourself get smacked around and your hp pool getting dangerously low to then yoyo back up, undoing the primary goal of these changes?/ Edit: Worse still, if a hit comes in AFTER that large hit that just came in from one of the spammy rogue enemies and it shanks you for a negligible amount of damage, do you then only heal that stab amount of damage as it overwrites the healing stored form the single hit of the brute?
You aren't ONLY healing the last damage event in the last 5 seconds. You heal for 25% of all damage events in the last 5 seconds. But then those 5 seconds get erased. So now if you take more than 28% of your max health per 5 seconds (to outpace the 7% max health minimum healing of DS) it doesn't matter when you use DS, as long as you use it at least every 5 seconds. It actually incentivizes you to use DS in a rhythm and not caring about incoming damage anymore. Basically stacking up RP to counter a big upcoming damage event is useless. If you were at full health and take 80% of your max health in damage, it barely matters if you have enough RP for 1 or 3 DS. Because with 1 DS you heal for 20% of your max health. With 3 you heal for 34%. While before you would heal for 60% with 3 DS. So getting back to your many small and one big hit, if you have been hit for 40% of your health in the last 3 seconds and use DS, then you heal for 10% of your health with it. Then you get hit for 55% and another 5% in the next second after your first DS, using your second DS would heal you for 15% (25% of the 60%) no matter in which order the strikes hit you. So in total you have taken 100% of your max health in 4 seconds, and because you got a DS off inbetween, you managed to heal for a total of 25% of your max health. Before that change you would have healed for 35% with these two DS, as the other 40% damage taken were still in the last 5 seconds, so they were counted again. Funny enough, this might get us to a very weird state of sometimes not wanting to get hit between two DS. Because you would want those flat 7% max health healing. For example when you get hit for 15% max health per second, you would take 75% per 5 seconds. Using DS then would heal you for 18.75% of your health. If directly after that you manage to get another DS in, you heal for 7% of your max health. BUT if you take another 15% damage before that DS, then you would still heal for 7% (because 7% flat is more than 25% of 15%), but those 15% wouldn't count for next deathstrike in 5 seconds, because that damage event already got healed by a DS, so you would only have 60% damage taken in for the third DS. So you either want to get healed for more than 7% per DS, or don't want to get hit between DS at all.
@@Schilani Yeah not long after I made my comment I grasped how stupid my line of thinking was, but even still there are an insane amount of issues I have with this approach and it doesn't look like they're backing down from the changes. Damn shame. With the short-form main story in case "people don't like focusing on story" (ridiculous take for an MMO *RPG*) to these tank changes idk. Things were looking like a slam dunk for TWW, now... not so sure.
@@darrenzzz426 I am kinda curious at the moment if I will be continuing tanking, or if I will lean more into healing. Because basically cutting BDK healing in half sounds on paper really bad. But if they actually manage to get rid of stupid spike damage like they are saying, then that might be more interesting. Also this might make BDK a bit more complex, instead of just spamming Heartstrike and Death Strike, with the occasional Marrowrend and Blood Boil sprinkled in. Now that you can't just get by with DS, using more of your kit could be fun, especially with the changes to things like Bonestorm or Blooddrinker. Especially with Bonestorm I was a bit sad about how weak it was for the high opportunity cost.
@@Schilani I can't say I have a lot of faith that it won't be Shadowlands season 1 all over again, every change so far makes it look like tanks will either entirely rely on healers to be a whole character, or kiting, neither of which makes for fun gameplay moments for the neither the tank nor the healer imo. I don't see a world where, if this somehow doesn't turn out the way everyone in the community is predicting it to, tanking is anywhere near as fun. Many people have aptly put it in saying some version of "imagine doing everything right, pulling off your rotation in the best possible way performing the best possible combos, executing smart plays that should save the group, and still dying because fuck you". Making entire player characters feel like one half of a duo, and making them feel less than; when the other half of the duo is not around or up to par takes a massive part of the player *and* role agency away. Not to mention it completely guts your ability to perform above your peers and carry, or even produce exciting gameplay. As for the BDK changes, idk, I think thematically it's strong and cool and I'm more incentivized just from a lore, visuals and "fun" standpoint to play it more than ever. But the anchor weighing me down are these tank changes right now. Our guild tanks are considering re-rolling and some eyes are on me and I don't know if I'm ready to tackle another SL S1
Speaking as someone who has been playing MMOs for decades... tanks not needing healers most of the time is unhealthy. Healers should be primarily responsible for the entire team's survival, including the tank. Additionally, tanks being so self sufficient that they barely need healers creates a problem for every other form of content as well - ex. Delves. They can't design delves properly for all classes if tanks are invincible but everyone else isn't. They can't design world content properly for all classes if tanks are invincible. And I know that that's not important to m+/raid players, but it is important to the game as a whole.
Having to babysit the tank as well as the DPS in content where a global or 2 is the difference between someone being at full health or being dead is bad and puts more strain on an already strained role. Healers already have enough to do when incoming damage is so high that you have to full heal the entire party every second. We don't want to have to babysit the tank as well.
@@iamme625 I mean, I'm 100% willing to trade making the experience worse for the top 5% if it means the game is better for the rest. If you're pushing like 15-20 keys, you're in such an extreme minority that I can't really speak for you because you live in your own world and that world is optimized around such a different bar from everyone else that it might as well be a different game. But for somewhere in the range of 80-90% of the playerbase, having tanks be NOT so self sufficient is a positive both from a content design perspective AND from a play experience perspective. Edit: This is making the assumption that they adjust the overall game flow around this, of course. If they fail to do so, it could be bad. But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
like this already fkin exists, if a tank needs help they ask the healer.... idk wth blizz is thinking when they say they want tanks to be affected by healers more...
As a BDK since Cata(the original launch), I never thought any genius dev can think of this death strike change is justified. If this iteration goes on live, Bdk will be the saddest tank of all time. While having lesser armor than leather-wearers, no dodge, no shield block, and must spend majority of RP to be even tank mobs. I hope dev come back to senses and revert this strayed tank-design philosophy.
They created their own problem by giving every dps 4-6 defensives in df, so the answer is apparently to buff player hp every expac, increase mob health and damage, effectively nerf healers and then inevitably have to buff healers, and now they need to nerf tanks. Anything other than admit that giving dps infinite defensives was a bad idea and just dial it back, in fact they even doubled down and gave dps even more defensives. But according to some people, tanks should expect that being too good at your class and not needing healing should be nerfed because it's obviously broken despite it being easily the most stressful role with the most responsibilities by far, and the fact that healing has gotten so easy this expansion that it feels like well over half are kinda boosted by their role and this basically just punishes tank players when the weaker healers can't keep up.
