Tata steel job cuts: is Labour green agenda under threat? | The New Statesman podcast

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The blast furnace closure at Port Talbot steelworks reveals the cost of Net Zero and presents an election challenge for Keir Starmer.
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The closure of two blast furnaces owned and operated by Tata Steel in Port Talbot will result in the loss of 2,800 jobs and impact thousands more.
Anoosh Chakelian visited the steelworks to meet the workers whose jobs are under threat, and reveals what she discovered on the New Statesman podcast. She speaks to the New Statesman's Freddie Hayward.
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24 янв 2024

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Комментарии : 61

@pgf289 5 месяцев назад

Guys I know it's not always easy, especially at short notice, but would it be possible to get in outside experts and stakeholders for at least a brief portion of these chats? I think having someone who understands the steel and metallurgy industries would have really helped here, because one of the main cons of electric Arc furnaces is that they are not really producing steel at all, they just melt down old steel to be recycled, and the quality is not the same as new or "virgin" steel, as it is known in the industry. This is crucial, as if the government has decided that it wants to subsidise steel production, which is needed if they're not going to introduce proper tariffs, anti-dumping measures, or affordable electricity for the industry, then the really strategic and high value steels start from virgin steel, not recycled arc-furnace steel. You cannot make railway rails from it, you cannot make armour from it, you cannot make pressure hulls or pressure vessels from it, you cannot make many high end and exotic alloys from it. And these are the high value added areas that the UK is actually good at and should maintain competitiveness in, not producing cheap rebar, panels, and mid-strength girders.

@buzzukfiftythree 5 месяцев назад

Excellent comment. I, for one, did not realise that non-virgin steel has such limitations on its use.

@tompearce3610 5 месяцев назад

Good points and the fact that Arc furnaces have limitations needs widespread public awareness

@cammac648 5 месяцев назад

Some examples: Saarstahl at Ascoval in France and Evraz in Colorado make railway rails out of scrap in an EAF. For pressure vessel steel, Industeel in France and Belgium make all their pressure vessel steel out of scrap via EAF. Sheffield Forgemasters produce their steel via an EAF, which includes steel for armour and nuclear forgings. One of the most challenging steels to make via EAF has been automotive steel, which steelmakers in the US (which produces 60% of all their steel from scrap) and Korea claim some success at (requires very high strength on thin sheets).

@richardtuxford1812 5 месяцев назад

Britain's steel industry had only really survived this long due to niche high value markets such as those mentioned above. Losing the capability to make these steels is potentially catastrophic. Investment is needed in emerging primary technologies such as the new tech in Scandinavia, not remelt furnaces

@Pierrick2009 4 месяца назад

Having "outside experts and stakeholders" comment on the news!? Are you mad? Only Oxford History/ PPE graduates will do for the media commentariat :D

@antwnpowell 5 месяцев назад

Port Talbot voted 60% in favour of Brexit.

@colinthompson3111 5 месяцев назад

Tata Steel's energy program doesn't challenge Labour's Net Zero Policy. Tata is a private firm operating all over the world. Conservative governments have changed UK Steel so that the plants are not competing for business all over the world. Tata decides which of its many plants will do the work. If it is easier to supply the EU from an India based plant they will do that. Labour and Labour policy not involved. PM Sunak mentioned how grateful the workers should be as Tata wanted to fire more people. If Labour are looking for industries that the UK needs post Brexit, they should look at steel demand in the UK and determine if they want to create a UK owned Steel company. Because the Conservatives have badly damaged the economy, other industries will need similar consideration. Excellent video as always by The New Statesman. Hope Labour makes Anoosh the next Speaker.

@mikez2779 5 месяцев назад

i'm quite disappointed for you not to point out: 1) that brexit does play a role in this - as it was clearly mentioned by Welsh first minister 2) that steel is a strategic resource - so not having it manufactured domestically will create a vulnerability for the UKs global standing. because if you will make yourself dependant on Chinese import of such strategic resource - would you be able to stand against China when the situation calls for it?

@richardtuxford1812 5 месяцев назад

I think sadly it reflects a lack of understanding by those not in the industry. Brexit 100% is a factor here as you know. Tata are investing in sister plants in the EU with similar net zero targets, they haven't done so here because of trade restrictions. Losing primary steel making is catastrophic to the UK. It needs ringfencing/offsetting against any net zero policies

@gerwynprice4608 5 месяцев назад

Port Talbot is just part of the issue that the UK has had no industrial policy since the 70s. Thatcher pushed the economy to services in the 80s and ever since HMG (of whatever colour) has refused to give a steer leaving everything to the free market. As a result we have few "national champions" in key industrial sectors and we cannot react optimally and strategically to worldwide factors such as the Chinese dumping steel on the world market. If Port Talbot closes we will be the only country in the G20 to not be able to produce "virgin steel" with all the implications that has to our defence industries and other key sectors. So we will be offshoring our Net Zero obligations to other, often poorer countries. And regarding the lack of an industrial policy, what price to save the UK motor industry? Tata is one of the main "UK" manufacturers and as Sir Patrick Minford infamously stated the motor industry would be inevitably lost as a result of Brexit.

@buzzukfiftythree 5 месяцев назад

Excellent comment. We’re still going to need virgin steel and it seems short-sighted to shut the furnaces if that’s going to remove the UK’s ability to produce it. Sure, we need to move towards greener policies, but our need for such steel won’t suddenly disappear.

@Gareth.Walley 5 месяцев назад

Not being able to make any virgin steel in the UK is a massive own goal. Its a strategic critical resource. Recycled steel from arc furnaces cannot be made into the same high quality steel, so we will now be reliant on imports. People want a greener economy, but also want no drop in standard of living. You can't have both. Fossil fuels are a super power, and we've both squandered and misused them to have a two century long party.

@jamesprice4647 5 месяцев назад

The Tata debacle also challenges Labour Brexit policy, but they can't talk about that.

@rassyk9838 5 месяцев назад

Absolutely, The conservatives want this to be purely a net zero issue. They really dont want to talk about how they scrapped the EU protections that were protecting UK Steel and neither does Labour.

@PaulInPorirua 5 месяцев назад

This is all about Brexit. It's weak of the NS to just frame this as a Green energy problem; Tata aren't closing their Dutch furnaces, which face all the same issues.

@cybergornstartrooper2157 5 месяцев назад

Not sure but I keep hearing steel workers refer to this as a secondary process, and while I am no expert a quick google tells me that Arc furnaces are often used to produce steel from recycled sources. So it’s entirely possible that this is now just a reprocessing plant and not a steel producer. If so we would no longer be a steel producer which would be a huge mistake especially as war might be coming. Would love someone to confirm this.

@tomayris3671 5 месяцев назад

well unless your mining coal and iron, you still need imports to make your 'british' steel...

@cybergornstartrooper2157 5 месяцев назад

@@tomayris3671 that’s not my point, but according to google we do.

@waltermcphee3787 5 месяцев назад

as the rest of Europes steel producers are looking to change to green steel production using Hydrogen instead of cokeing coal, with a plant in Sweeden due to start production in 2027 the UK decides to close. Ark furnace is for recycling steel not virgin iron production for which one needs a blast furnace. Free market dogma relying on CO2 poluting production methods for imports rather than embracing green tech, lets hope that a Labour government will have more foresite.

@mcbunson 5 месяцев назад

It does not matter what the UK economy is at the moment. We can't live off the mega cities alone. There are towns up and down the country that needs a reason to exist, manufacturing could be the answer.

@buzzukfiftythree 5 месяцев назад

If the PM won’t even discuss it with the democratically elected leader of the Welsh Assembly, then what hope do we have to get a plan for the future. Subsidies or keeping the furnaces open may not be an option, but there needs to be an agreed plan for jobs in the Port Talbot area.

@gabrielc1989w 5 месяцев назад

Does anyone remember, a coal mine was reopened in Cumbria, said the coal is specifically for making steel in the UK? I am sure the government know the furnace is going to be closed and the coal was not needed all along.

@jimpmccusker 5 месяцев назад

I disagree that the UK can become an entirely service based economy. There needs to be some component of good paying blue collar jobs in primary resources, manufacturing etc. We can't completely rely on the rest of the state to subsidize low paying unskilled, insecure service economy jobs through benefits and tax credits.

@kls1836 5 месяцев назад

I second this it's absolutely asinine to rely solely on service to be a self sufficient nation.

@dondoodat 5 месяцев назад

Every other country in the world that has a service based economy also has a manufacturing base running underneath it. The Tories basically are only concerned with the Square Mile and laundering money for tax havens.

@Talushallux1 4 месяца назад

@jimpmccusker. It has. If you go back to 70s and 80s first the coal mines in the N of England & Wales. Then the Tin and bauxite mines in Cornwall and then successive wave s of car manufacturing over the last 3 decades, to the point of even 'small manufacturing' like fish processing and cheese manufacturing are all shut! Your refusal to see such a change on the British landscape is one of the problems for people to understand why the economy is in a downward spiral!

@richardtuxford1812 5 месяцев назад

This is happening in Scunthorpe too, the UK will regret losing it's primary steel making. Brexit has prevented investment from offshore investors (why would they invest?)

@britishninja 5 месяцев назад

if im hearing this correctly the labour plan is to modernise it not shut it down unless that modernisation means it will no longer need people for it to operate then surely those jobs will be back once the modernisation is complete ? unless im misunderstanding this ?

@DocNick68 5 месяцев назад

The modernisation envisaged would require vastly fewer jobs.

@Harve6988 5 месяцев назад

Everyone is making what they want of this story, whether Brexit or anti-green policies. This is really sad for the people who live and work there, but I think you got to the main point right at the end of the video - this is a story of industrial modernisation, investment and automation when it comes down to it, a story which has always involved less and less workers over time. The problem is that these skilled workers will no doubt be left on the metaphorical "trash heap" and end up in low skilled, low paid service sector jobs. Additionally, as said at the end of the video - look at the work of the resolution foundation - the green transition will have a negligible effect on the number of jobs, and countries don't change their industrial structure overnight. We are a post industrial country - we should focus on conditions for people who work in the service sector, not trying to rebuild manufacturing, in the short term at least.

@papi8659 5 месяцев назад

Tata know they can milk the Tories because of the Brexit destitution.

@johnmuckley6363 5 месяцев назад

And fsmily connections

@julesprocter9947 5 месяцев назад

Two points. Firstly, the key to addressing the climate emergency is through accurate information to all, however upsetting that may be. (Personally, I think that the move to an eco-tech society will be beneficial to people and the planet.) Secondly, this is yet more taxpayer money that the English government is looking to hand over to Tata, without meaningful strings attached. Politicians need to do more work on their moral compasses.

@Talushallux1 4 месяца назад

It's ridiculous that they haven't addressed the elephant in the room: Brexit! The same TATA steels operates steel plants on continental Europe, where they get green credits from EU! Brexit has not only made steel production expensive, but barriers and tariffs have made selling it less profitable!

@cts4044 5 месяцев назад

We all know we are in this situation because the EU never took action on cheap Chinese steel dumping. Then after Brexit the expectation was that the UK will be able to stop China and revive the industry but it didn't! Tata clearly didn't want to have to axe any jobs. It is not their general policy to have people lose their jobs. Tata is run by a large moral compass with over 66% of their group shares being given to their charitable organisations and is considered the most trustworthy/reliable employer by many.

@jeffreyamos7288 5 месяцев назад

Gosh and I thought that we had a Tory government!

@khar12d8 5 месяцев назад

The only people I can see saying we need virgin steel are unions and certain voices in the media... If as a country we REALLY do need virgin steel then I find it strange that none of the major defence companies in the UK or aerospace companies would not have publicly said so, which leads me to think it's not actually that big of a deal. It seems green steel can be used for many things.

@kerryhutchings6316 5 месяцев назад

Do popular policies automatically mean they are right?

@punditgi 5 месяцев назад

Anoosh is smart and beautiful. ❤🎉😊

@julianshepherd2038 5 месяцев назад

Making your steel is not really secure supply if you have to import the ore and coal.

@montyriviera795 5 месяцев назад

I'm not for privatising absolutely everything, it just wouldn't 'work' I'd like to see some vital industries nationalised or partially nationalised. I don't think Mr Sunak would be interested in that at all. Sadly it would seem Mr Starmer has little appetite for that either. The results? No UK steel industry to speak of, and a liberal topping of human waste poured into our waterways. I'm not even going to touch on the NHS.

@terrancehall9762 5 месяцев назад

Net zero is the future. Just need a plan.

@jonathanfreyone526 5 месяцев назад

The big white elephant in the room that the mainstream media doesn’t want to talk about, BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT!

@gavinreid9184 5 месяцев назад

so much talk about the loss of jobs, not a peep about a practical plan for after. The same happened in the 1980's. The old industries were torn down but new ones were not planned for and never arrived so those areas are still floundering. Net Zero could be a great boon if we planned for it - we would be on shoring so many energy jobs and energy production. We would be loosening the ties to the global market for oil and its products. The lack of planning is resulting us replacing dependency on oil producing countries to China who are fast becoming the world's supplier of choice for batteries and wind turbines.

@malcolmbartram5273 5 месяцев назад

Starmergeddon is coming. Port Talbot is not very green. So expect the eco loons to close it.

@peteroneill2991 5 месяцев назад

Nothing to do with going green, tory mis direction as usual.

@davidmorton8332 5 месяцев назад

First time I've not watched one of these in full. Indeed I quit after a few minutes. It just felt you'd accepted two very right wing narratives ( this is Labour's problem, it's a Green issue ) uncritically and don't have any grasp of international steel policy.

@mrD66M 5 месяцев назад

"Let's f**k the country up just to make life difficult for Labour" - next cun+servative manifesto

@peteroneill2991 5 месяцев назад

Are you a government mouthpiece, this has nothing to do with the green transition.

@philiptye1864 5 месяцев назад

The 2 presenters here,show yet again,their ignorance, patronising attitudes. As someone earlier said,couldn't someone who knows what they are talking about be used. These Q & A slots are meant to enlightern those watching/listening, they fail on all counts, just more drivel from the uninformed Westminster bubble.

@user-vc5zt9ci12 5 месяцев назад

What a load of nonsense

@patrickdegenaar9495 5 месяцев назад

Is rhis really a net zero issue? If jobs are being lost, it sounds like efficiency savings through automation. That secures at least some jobs. Otherwise everything would close in a few years.

@dondoodat 5 месяцев назад

It's not a Net Zero problem, it's a Brexit problem. We've put up trade barriers for the sale of steel into tbe EU. As a country we need steel but not enough to keep producing without selling. So the closure is being used to change the production but that wouldn't be happening this way if sales weren't low. Nowhere in the EU is closing their production down.

@richardtuxford1812 5 месяцев назад

It's quite frustrating that even the centre and left leaning media seem unable to see this is literally a Brexit issue and all stems back to a lack of industrial policy from the Thatcher era

@patrickdegenaar9495 5 месяцев назад

Is that really true though? I certainly agree Brexit is an issue, but Tata are NOT closing their plant. Indeed they are upgrading it for net Zero steel production. The issue being discussed is that by automating the plant, they need less workers. That is an efficiency improvement for the economy overall, but horrible for the workers involved.@@dondoodat

@dondoodat 5 месяцев назад

@@patrickdegenaar9495 Yes, it's down to Brexit. If they were still selling pre-Brexit volumes they wouldn't be considering closing anything down, they'd work around it. The replacement furnace will produce lower volumes and is for scrap metal reclamation. Tata have the UK over a barrel and after all the money our government has given them you can bet we'll pay them plenty more before everything is settled.

@dondoodat 5 месяцев назад

@@patrickdegenaar9495 The steel industry is going to be subjected to 25% tariffs on every tonne of steel that we export to the European Union above a certain quota. "What's even worse is steel going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will be included in the calculation of that quota, so we really have got a very troubling situation that could have a very damaging impact on our steel industry." Stephen Kinnock MP.

@malcolmbartram5273 5 месяцев назад

I feel for Wales. Fact eco loons want this.