TEN PROG BANDS WE HATE | with YouTuber NOTES REVIEWS 

I'm relatively new to Andy's channel which I found because I'm a drummer, and so glad to hear of yours. Great conversation btw.

I almost always want energy and that means I almost always want Magma.

The second-best prog band behind only King Crimson. Sill Life is their best,

One of my favorite band which I think should get more love. I think a lot of people mess up with VDGG thinking their early 70s trilogy is best represnting them. However, it's their 2nd trilogy of Godbluff, Still Slife and World Record which is really where they peaked. And from that trilogy, it's Still Life that keeps to amaze me and make me really go nuts. It's an album I really care about. Every song is just to die for.

Godbluff is class

VAN DER GRAAF and PETER HAMMILL have great albums, not easy listen but it's worth your time. I can't stand GENESIS, i tried...but no

My favorites are Genesis, ELP and VDGG. Pawn Hearts is one of the greatest prog album of all time

he was in TD for 9 months (1969-1970) and one week in 1973. Klaus's best work is as a solo musician

For a bit of Klaus Schulze in a band situation, Go by Stomu Yamash'ta is worth checking out (if you haven't already).

​@@passenger62 Forgot that, but I have that album too and it's essential. By The way, I also forgot The Cosmic Jokers.

I agree completely, Michael. And, although I find nice moments to Mahavishnu, RTF, Herbie Hancock, I have only found most of the Miles Davis offshoots only moderately interesting at best.

That’s an important point. They have a lot of live recordings that are really excellent.

And someone like Robert Wyatt had a lot more chops than the first Mothers drummer Jimmy Carl Black. And the first Soft Machine album was much more than just pop with some psychedelics. Even Zappa's Freak out sounded tame compared to SM's So Boot if at all/ Why am I so short / A certain kind....probably the most experimental out there avant rock ever recorded up until that moment.

I think Third is great too 👍

Yeah, Third is wonderful

@@FreeBrunoPowroznik Yes Third is great - especially 'Slightly All The Time'.

Troublemaker

that's just elephant talk

Those would be the top 5 best along with VDGG-thats been my top 6 for a while now.

Got me for a ..while

My heart stopped 😅

Good choices. I've only heard Klaus and soft machine.

I hadn't heard those other acts either. I thought Soft Machine's Bundles was brilliant. Softs was great too. And Klaus Shultz on Stomu Yamashta's Go! was excellent.

Very true. Ploughing through a discography on Spotify isn't the same. No anticipation. No bedding an album in because you can just dial in something different the instant you dislike a track.

I've often thought that I'd have a much higher opinion of Camel's _"Snow Goose"_ if I had heard it when it was released (1975). But I didn't come across Camel until _"Stationary Traveller"_ was released (1984), and then I worked my way backwards in their catalog. By the time I heard _"Snow Goose"_ it seemed fine, but I didn't feel it was particularly great.

Great...one of the best prog RU-vidrs out there IMO

Ditto.

I'm "not a fan", but there's a certain old live concert video/movie from "back in the day" that... well, it's great! I can't remember when or what. I think I have it on a hard drive somewhere. Need to watch again.

Love when they add the avant garde and jazzy elements. Saw them live in NYC. Really good. I've seem some live clips from the 70s, amazing stuff.

@@ElrondHubbard_1They’re amazing live.

VDGG is Top 5 best ever for sure!

I have never seen the point to all these subcategories as dividing lines in an already divided idiom.

Agreed to nearly all of this... though I wasn't really disappointed by SF's inclusion -- I can see some people may not like it. I may add that Mike Ratledge is one of the most unique keyboard players, who sounded amazing as a replacement of a guitar player (and much 'darker' -- to use one of Andy's expressions -- than Keith Emerson, for example), and a tremendous composer. By the way, I actually think that Henry Cow could be included in a list like this.... though, again, some may argue it's not really prog.

Gary, I agree with everything you said. And he said it very well. There’s an element of looseness and soft machine that’s different from so many of the other bands. Yet they still have direction in the songs. I love the term fusion and I typically use the terms fusion and jazz rock interchangeably. But when it comes to soft machines middle. I tend to view that as jazz rock maybe because without the guitar it doesn’t have as much of that electric fusion sound that we associate with the term period bundles is definitely a fusion album to my ears. And third and almost 4th are absolute masterpieces. I could come up with 30 other bands that deserve to be on this list before soft machine. I was always raised to think of the Prog big six as Genesis Pink Floyd, king crimson yes ELP and soft machine as the big six of Prog

Just one additional comment and a general statement about critics in general; and what happened in prog, fusion and jazz in general. (If you have to label Henry Cow at all, it would be Progressive. Their first album was closer to the Mothers than anything that SM did, although SM Vol. 1 does have a quote from Absolutely Free and Zappa and the Mothers were both initially produced by Tom Wilson, but Wyatt didn't have many kind words for Wilson as a producer). As a matter of fact, the first HC album reminded me of a direction the Mothers could have entered after Uncle Meat. (I am incredibly disappointed that Hatfield and the North and National Health are almost never mentioned as fusion influencers. Just great albums and players.) I also think Emerson and Brian Auger were convinced replacements for lead guitarists. The guitar was ubiquitous, but you also had groups like Egg, Back Door, and Etron Fou Leloublan who functioned quite well without a lead guitarist. But, I think history and the bias of critics (especially people who came to this music after it was developed) is a large component of some of the perspectives I am seeing. I am 70 and grew up when these bands and players were emerging. I never heard a rock groups blend free jazz and rock as well as Soft Machine (that includes the Mothers, who I loved). Zappa solidified his fan base with One Size Fits All-great album, but less daring and less chaotic than his earlier stuff. (Live, he was still extraordinary of course). KC released two albums that I didn't appreciate until years after they were released (Lizard sounded like free jazz, but very shambolic). I ran across Soft Machine, Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, John Cage at roughly the same time. So the barriers between music were not as categorized as they seem to be now. I think Prog and Fusion started to decline when they formularized themselves. And they started repeating (I can remember one of the main criticisms of MO being that the second album was pretty much the same formula as the first, which I found basically true.) Everyone repeats, but it was very obvious with MO and King Crimson in certain albums. But it was still great stuff. But creating a stable system is not really progressive. The landing points issue sounds like a desire for a hook, which seems anti-progressive. Finally, and this was a problem I had as early as the 1970's; prog audiences seem to have a real need for control. For me, I hit a tipping point when I read a comparison of Sun Ra and Magma in Archie Patterson's Eurock Magazine. The author compared the two together and ranked Magma higher because they were better organized. I have seen both live, and both were legendary...but Ra covered so much more than Christian did. Ra could go anywhere. That set a pattern I could start to see. Progress, in general, crave predictability and the general moderation that mainstream critics love. Hence, I think I see Andy's problems with VDGG: by the way, Hugh Banton is a virtuoso keyboard player. He just isn't, as Bruford described Wakeman, an arpeggio King! I honestly don't understand why they have such a problem with the need for structure/coherence. I found it interesting that none of Andy's best jazz albums were truly free jazz albums and he thought Peter Brotzmann's Machine Gun was just intended to shock. It represents, to me, a profound misunderstanding o 49:10 f free music. Maybe I have it wrong, but I think there is a need for comfort that I think compromises them a bit. I have my limits too, but I love music that stretches my ears and defies my expectations. Kudos to Andy for mentioning the John Lydon album, btw. I agree punk was ridiculous, but Lydon isn't. Andy did mention a group of bands that were spinoffs or directly influenced by the Software and one thing I noticed was that they all had prominent guitarists. VDGG doesn't have a dominant guitar as well. I don't know, but I have noticed a special place in hell being set aside for bands that don't have a smoking lead guitar; I don't think it's my imagination. Rock is incredibly guitar centric. Any band that does not have a guitar is suspect. Miles Davis doesn't have emotional peaks; John Coltrane does. But comparing SM to to Coltrane is ridiculous. They are functioning in different worlds, although some pieces on SM 4th and Side one of Fifth do enter the world of John Coltrane. I think they have well developed prejudices against SM based on false analogies with the Mothers.

I came back to this video because I wanted to follow up on something that’s been stuck in my head and that is Andy’s comparison from soft machine to the mothers. And then I see your very eloquent addendum to your original post, which I enjoyed very much and I think you do a really good job of teasing out what is happening with their lack of engagement with soft machine. For Andy, to say soft machines, third album is a poor man’s version of one of Frank Zappa‘s albums misses the mark. And I am a huge Frank Zappa fan probably a bigger, Zappa fan, soft machine. I have tons of his albums, but even though he plays in more sub genres than almost any musicians ever lived, he still frames even his solos in a direct controlled point moving forward. Where soft machine are more comfortable, and frankly innovators in solos and compositions and frameworks that are more aleatory, drifting and even meandering. I which intern can be every bit as enjoyable as Frank Zappa’s music, but coming from a different perspective.

@@garygomesvedicastrology Re: Henry Cow, being progressive. Could be, but their hardcore fans say they have their own category, 'Rock in Opposition'. I know more than a few of these fans...

I believe you.

Honestly, this was the hardest collab I've ever had to do. Thinking about a prog band I didn't like????????

If you say you love all prog then you are not prog 😅

CA.EL is a great band,i didn't hear everything, but 70s stuff is very good, more some jazzy/Pink Floyd combination. Love CARAVAN too

Saw Marillion in their very early years at the start of the eighties when they played clubs and small theatres, I never got into them tbh but my mate bought all their records up to when Fish left.

You're not the only one who doesn't get Gentle Giant.

Same here. RRHOF is mostly a joke, as most awards-based organizations are. They contribute nothing and simply are riding on the coattails of greatness so they can feel elite and hobnob with legends. I stopped caring about awards more than 20 years ago now.

Dream Theatre are amazing musicians in search of a song.

Very pleased to get Notes on here...yes RU-vid legend!!!

You are absolutely right!!!!

AGREED! So underratted. Two groups that sound a bit like them (Cuz they Have the same singer / guitar player ) are Idoit Flesh and Free Salamander Exbit.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Dream Theater are a bit Marmite like I think. I have all their albums and they all have great tracks but also some so so tunes. Great musicianship though. If they'd stayed with the lighter sound of Images and Words they would have been much bigger I think.

I'd have Sky over Camel any day!!!

I loved Dream Theater when I first heard them. I bought three albums in quick succession and played them loud and then...the other shoe dropped. Musically their ok, but lyrics and vocals are dreadful.

I am not an English Speaker so I might not get a subtle Twist: Why is Genesis a Copy of Marillion the Original? Genesis is the Prog Band I love to hit on. I mean if I could do what they do I would not do what they do. Peter Gabriel as a Promoter of others Music can not be underrated. I owe him 2 Bands I promoted once in my early Twenties. And he made Youssou N‘Dour a World Star. Phil Collins made some really good Jazzrock Fusion. But I really do not like any Genesis Records. But please help me out with that Genesis/Marillion Joke. It is a back to the Future DeLorean Thing!

@@erikheddergott5514 Back in the day, early Marillion were accused of being a Genesis knock-off. Usually by people who hadn't listened to either. For some reason, Boy George and Kajagoogoo fans loved to hate on prog.

@@davidmorgan6896 Okay, I might have to ask what an AVO is. As said: Who does your Sentence blame to be the Copy? That NME/Melody Maker and a big Crowd of German Speaking Journalists did not like Marillion back in the 80ties is a Fact.

An AVO is a court order you take out to try and prevent someone from having close contact with you when you fear for your safety, so It's Marillion I'm disliking, not Genesis. Especially when it comes to tracks like Garden Party that sound so much like Genesis it's creepy and disturbing. Early Genesis, on the other hand, from Nursery Cryme right up to Trick of the Tail can rightfully boast to have one of the most consistent runs of musical excellence in the prog genre. If someone can't be thrilled by a song like Firth of Fifth, then it doesn't even come down to liking or disliking prog, they just don't get music, period. Even so, whatever songs gets you off, it's a great thing to love and enjoy music of any kind. @@erikheddergott5514

Well, Lydon said he liked VDGG. I personally never heard him mention Can. Hamill is more likely, to me at least.

@@garygomesvedicastrology I remember Lydon interviewed by the time PIL was making the "Metal Box" (1979) saying how Can was more exciting than most of the british prog bands - and I remember it very well because that's how I discovered this german band and later bought "Ege Bamyasi"... To me, PIL's repetitive music ("Albatross") as a lot more in common with Can’s obsessive rythmic patterns than with the narrative structures of prog compositions...

​@@garygomesvedicastrologyFunnily enough, I've only just checked out a list of Lydon's 12 favourite albums, where he lists Tago Mago by Can as a favourite, but no Van Der Graaf

Bruno, He probably didn't mention Genesis either, or the Nice, but there was an interview in which he said he liked one Genesis song and loved what Keith Emerson did with daggers in the Nice when he and Emerson met. You can like attributes of a band without putting them on your favorite ten albums list. I really loved Can between 1973 and 1979, but I ultimately found them a bit repetitive for me personally. The only VDGG album I really enjoy is Pawn Hearts, mainly because it's their most adventurous and I was a free jazz fan as well as a progressive fan. Tastes are a personal thing and I don't base my own personal tastes on what people I like happen to like. I thought PIL was interesting, but not as interesting as, let's say, This Heat, for example. Can were Stockhausen students who saw the Velvet Underground and said we can do that better. It is a bit dismissive, I know, but that's kind of how I see them now. My view might change over time. The dis of Soft Machine in this exchange irritated me, but they are entitled to their opinions. I just think they are incredibly wrong in their assessments. Music doesn't have to have a conclusion, but if you don't hear levels of excitement in SM, you aren't listening.

​@@Tacotac64Calling VDGG narrative is a bit of a stretch for me to be honest. Bottom line: John Lydon was pretty open minded. So were a lot of punks. I am not trying to establish a lineage of influence here. Influence can be what attracts or repels you, to be honest. I would do everything I personally could to avoid playing guitar like Neil Young, for instance, but I like a few of his ideas. We're products of our aesthetic environment.

“Dream theater emphasize skill for the sake of skill” is what people say when they don’t listen to or understand dream theater

Marillion seems to be nro1

Marrillion is Andy Edwards’ most hated Prog Rock band.

Big Big Train? They're great!

Grendel is a fine track. Apart some Genesis Supper's Ready similarities towards the end there is nothing derivative. Ok, drummer isn't Phil Collins for sure, but fantastic guitar work. Great lyrics, that murky feel of hopelessness...love it.

Early Marillion was great. Then Fish left.

I second this comment! I'm a VDGG fan. And I consider the band learned a few lessons in songwriting during their hiatus and came back with 2 masterpieces: Godbluff and Still Life. Andy! Check these two out!!

Van der Graaf is the best band to divorce your wife.

I haven't listened to vdgg in decades, but now really want to hear Godbluff again. Easily my favourite of their albums.

@@user-cj4df7vs7w I like to say that it "isn't first date music."

@@aaronhayman8558 "Last date music" is always the best haha

I talked about them in my epic history of prog series

yep...same here