You're confused on the Maxwell Technologies dry electrode process. It's perfectly compatible with Hibar. Dry electrode deposition is not the same thing as solid state battery or dry electrolyte. A liquid electrolyte is still required. Dry electrode deposition eliminates the solvent used in "printing" the electrode on the substrate, and also eliminates the drying time and the energy and pollution associated with drying the electrode "ink" and evaporating the solvent. Adding the liquid (jelly) electrolyte is an entirely separate process that comes later. Of the two acquisitions, I'm more excited about Maxwell Technologies. It's more of a breakthrough in future battery manufacturing and should lead directly to the million mile battery. No shade on Hibar, I'm sure Tesla found something innovative there too or they wouldn't have bought them, but we don't know yet what "secret sauce" they've got that impressed Tesla. Electricautonomy.ca reports: "In addition to having facilities in North America, Hibar also holds major manufacturing facilities in Europe, South Korea, Japan, Malaysia and China. It’s the latter location where Hibar has sunk in its roots. In 2003, the company, seeing the exploding Chinese market for battery technology and coupled with the behemoth manufacturing industry, created a subsidiary company, Hibar China, to manage Asian production from its two head office locations in the country. According to a company brochure, the Chinese market accounted for over 50 per cent of Hibar’s business in 2014." This puts the acquisition in a whole new light. Hibar may already have the battery production capacity that Tesla needs to expand it's business.
@@dlwatib This is very true, the two technologies are compatible and there we should be careful not to confuse solid state batteries with the Maxwell dry electrode process. Well done for pointing this out!
The problem with Tesla is that they are burning so much cash, they constantly need investment. They are lucky (or is it Musk's and it's team skill) to keep the investors in the game
@@baokhanglacasse8778 They are not burning cash. Their Q3 2018 to Q2 2019 yearly loss was 650m. Half of that loss was due to all the one time investments made in Q1 2019 around international shipping and raven. They are about to double their battery and car capacity in china. They make money on each car, all they need is volume, which requires more manufacturing capacity for batteries and cars.
@@_PatrickO you are talking about 2018-2019 only, but I'm talking overall, without constant cash influx from multiple investors during their journey, they would have a HUGE debt lol...
Maxwell DBE technology, Dry Battery Electrode, is a method for applying slurry to the ELECTRODE surface without using liquid solvents. The cells still require filling with liquid ELECTROLYTE. Maxwell and Hibar technology should be fully compatible.
Bo McGillacutty are you serious?! In Australia lithium is produced by mining, digging and processing the Rock , and concerning pumping, its a disaster for the environment because the water is pumped from the soil and dried at the surface which doesnt benefit anything
@@carholic-sz3qv Get a clue. It's toxic brine under toxic dry salt lake beds where NOTHING can live other than some microorganisms. What aspect of your life DOESN'T require extractive industries? Why don't you set an example by living off the land with nothing but stone tools.
@@nat3llite Yeah, when they are going specifically at deposits instead of open pit mining. Instead of making bricks they will extract ore =) Worming their way through strata rather than disrupting the surface.
great and first mover video - but the maxwell tech is "dry electrode" not "dry cell". thats simplifying production so maxwell-hibar-groeman will probably work together on a brand new line super effective line with no solvent and drying-owens - but a capacitor inspired 100% dry, very fast 16X spacereducing line.... but you are the only one with a video on this with is unusual. If its true you are exceptional fast and well informed!!! :)
@@frontseatgamer Elon needs a exponential disruption in batteriecell manufacturing more that anything ells. All his ideas, plans,cars, self driving and designs will not materialize without becoming the worlds ultimate monopolized exponential batteriecell disrupter and leading the way into the 3th automatic manufacturing revolution. Panasonic is holding Elon back and that is just something you dont wanna do ;)
Mining is a logical next move for Tesla, especially given the lower cost of Lithium mine deposits at the moment. They could largely be automated as well.
As far as i know there is alot of Lithium "ore/salt" mined, the problem is the next step, processing of it to get it into form that is required for battery manufacturing.
Maxwells supercaps are best for regenerative breaking while the lithium is for range also using capacitors will protect lithium’s and increase range with
Tesla is a different company from the big three. GM, Ford, Toyota and VW makes decision in a snail pace. Tesla's decision making is similar to it's car acceleration speed.
Tesla.runs on electricity created by coal burners all things electricly powered run on dinisours.if you want to be truelly efficient put a solar panel on the roof .tesla will start to pay for themselves in 2065 as coal runs out.then there will be a solar panel on the roof.but before that there will be a generator under the hood so we won't have to be inconvenienced by a charging station..This will be available when the novelty on driving a purely electric car wears off.or it will be an option.i carry a generator which has got me out of a jam 30 times since I traveled .a friend of mine has an international patent for trailered solar panels that are in use to charge batteries.smaller trucks can work evidently eventually but a logging truck wouldn't do so well. A tesla powered yaris there ya got somthing..the motor runs the back wheels and when it's battery runs out there's no wait at the charging station.thats stupid simple.while it's underway with the engine it's charging the battery,and when it's charged you go pure electric.
I think that is the play they are making. Eventually we may see their 'primary' business as 'energy' (batteries, solar, grid-assist) and transportation as a 'secondary' but still important leg.
@@servant74 Which could help de-risk their business if they become an OEM. But I don't think Musk wants to be an OEM, he wants to dominate the industry and sees a chance to do it.
Tesla batteries represent the HEART AND SOUL of their business, which is why the class action lawsuit addressing the software update earlier this year that fraudulently cut Tesla owners battery capacity by 11% is so concerning. They lied stating that it was done to protect battery health and overall longevity, but it was really pure COA in order to both protect their own interests as well as prevent more fires. Their choice to deal so underhandedly with their own battery issues should cause most people to have legitimate trust issues in regard to doing business with them as, again, batteries represent the very core upon which their business is built.
Hadn't Elon announced plans to scale up to 1 TWh (Terrawatt Hour) battery production..? They definitely need that number to power everything that they plan to make..
Correct. Maxwell technologies has a dry electrode deposition process, but that's not the same as a solid state battery. A liquid electrolyte is still required. Dry electrode deposition eliminates the solvent used in "printing" the electrode on the substrate, and also eliminates the drying time and the energy and pollution associated with drying the electrode "ink." Adding the liquid electrolyte is an entirely separate process that comes later.
That is correct but super caps don't use electrolytes, there electrostatic caps not chemical batteries. that being said the dry process can be used on the anode/cathode since the electrolyte is a separate component/step.
Tesla is ahead of the competition by several years with what we currently know about Tesla. With what they have cooking behind the curtain, once it’s all unveiled, they will be a company that’s as strong as Apple, Google or Amazon.
Pun Jab I - Both had debt until they paid it off. In fact, Apple was very near Bankruptcy when Steve Jobs returned in 1997 & had Bill Gates bail Apple out (Gates owns 15% of Apple as a consequence), & the iPod (11/2001) & iPhone (6/2007) are what finally returned Apple to profitability www.lifewire.com/history-ipod-classic-original-2000732 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_(1st_generation)#History Amazon didn’t make money during its “growth phase” either. www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/a/NASDAQ_AMZN_2000.pdf www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/a/NASDAQ_AMZN_1999.pdf www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/a/NASDAQ_AMZN_1998.pdf www.annualreports.com/HostedData/AnnualReportArchive/a/NASDAQ_AMZN_1997.pdf You can find the rest here - www.annualreports.com/Company/amazoncom-inc
Tesla does not have an inordinate amount of debt compared to other automakers. It has the same debt to cash ratio as GM (5:1) and better than Ford (7:1). This is amazing in that Tesla's business model is extremely capital intensive. Just manufacturing an ordinary vehicle is capital intensive, requiring maybe a billion dollars of investment per model. Add to that, Tesla is building a supercharger network, plus it's also building its own sales and service network and not relying on dealers, who are ordinarily responsible for raising their own capital. Add to that, it's also building several other capital intensive businesses as well: battery production, solar panels, solar roofs, stationary storage products.
What are the bottlenecks to battery production - number of battery lines, raw materials or something else? On the face of it, it seems that if you are constrained by the number of lines then just add lines so there must be other reasons. Any ideas?
Raw materials are not a bottleneck to battery production. You can add more lines, but it’s more important to optimize the production on the lines you have - Getting ~35 GW/year instead of ~23 GW would be a HUGE boost in production. That would “unconstrain” present production of cars & Powerwalls. electrek.co/2019/04/14/tesla-gigafactory-1-battery-cell-production-issues-elon-musk/ Once you’ve done that, adding more “lines” would really make a difference & allow production of Y’s, Roadsters & possibly trucks or semis.
I live in Reno and work at one of the hotels that houses many of the Panasonic and tesla employees and let me tell you tesla wants those bastards out of gigafactory 1, from what I hear Panasonics contract is expensive and inefficient
Now they changed to Tesla Toronto automation ULC due to acquired by Tesla . Iain McColl , former CEO step down and retired.However "Hibar" name continue as brand not a company name.
@@CookiePepper Tesla still has to get back the purchase cost of these two companies. At the same time, the materiel cost and production costs are fully borne by Tesla and not another company (i.e. Panasonic). I don't think this 'vertical thinking' is as great a financial decision as everyone is advertising. Tesla hasn't yet shown itself to be an expert in anything except public relations and massaging financials. There needs to be a proprietary moat they can take advantage of, which they don't have.
What is most obvious is the current battery production is not being met by Panasonic. Tesla probably would have sold a lot more cars and storage if it wasn’t depending on third party battery supplier. We could see the first telsa produced battery in China GF, as the don’t have all the regulatory rules as in USA.
@@pw1974 Panasonic was losing money along with Tesla for every unit they sold. That's why Panasonic didn't piss additional money down the Nevada facility rathole. Outside of Tesla, Panasonic is a profitable company, including in battery manufacturing. Tesla isn't profitable in ANY of its businesses.
Tesla should build a new addition to the giga factory about the same size that they make 🚗 at now and use this technology to make a lot of battery’s a real lot think abut the scale of the-manhattan project
Not true that Hibar and Maxwell's techs are not complement. When a typical Lithium battery is made some of the lithium is lost during the first few charge cycles to create protective layer over the anode. The solution would be to over fill a battery so after the first few cycles result with 100% lithium totals. That however is not possible as the extra lithium would react before the battery is complete. Maxwell's tech allows for this to be done with out the reaction issue and Hibar as precision filling tech.
This is why Tesla is staying ahead of the game. Other companies think they are competing because of their large manufacturing plants. But it doesn’t matter how many cars you can make - if you don’t have the batteries to put in them.
And just when I thought that Tesla was embracing *_Solid State_** battery* technology, they are buying a company whose expertise lies in dispensing flammable electrolytes faster, more precisely and more economically than anyone else.
I drive a Tesla product. Most interesting piece of engineering in the World. Where are the competitors in this space? This purchase shows, TESLA, is aware and buys for longterm domination in manufacturing of power storage. Regardless of stock price. GM in contrast bought back $14 billion of it's own shares instead of technology like this company offers.
Should have been S in 2012, normal door X in 2014 and Roadster on S/X platform in 2016. Then 3 in 2018, Y in 2020, Pickup in 2022, Semi/Truck in 2024, Bus/Coach in 2026. Then refresh/update starting from S. A Roadster on the S/X platform would have been a hypercar from the start without creating a new platform. The X could have had rear hinged back doors to aid entry without the complication of gullwing ones. That would have brought the X out a year earlier.
So this possibly explains the slow vehicles production, at some point in the plant assembly the battery pack is installed and unable to speed up the process due to battery production problems! I mean this no secret but it explains the complex of making EV's. Potentially if battery was not an issue in the plant, tesla will deliver goal expectations and exceed! 👉! Right?
Capacitor energy densities, including Maxwell's are too low to be useful in vehicles. Tesla probably acquired Maxwell for their dry electrode technology. (That is not a solid state battery.)
Hibar and Maxwell are compatible because the Maxwell tech focuses on the production of the electrode using a "dry" process instead of using a highly toxic solvent ink to print the electrode. The Maxwell tech does not get rid of the electrolyte, so the Hibar tech would still apply.
I really don't understand why they arn't getting into electric locomotives. The rolling resistance is hundreds of time lower. By extension energy requirements are exponentially lower. Battery weight is of no concern. It really seems like a no brainier.
Is it just a coincidence that the Teslas Professor with the 1M mile battery has just been announced and both are in the same country, maybe these new cells would be made by Hibar?
That’s a long bow to draw. The problem for auto companies is the “1 million mile battery” (which is only true if you make the battery pack big enough) is only around 200Wh per kilogram. That is not energy dense enough and would add significant weight to the current tech. Weight is the enemy of EV range. The “1 million mile” battery also contains much more cobalt, making it significantly more expensive to manufacture. It’s a great achievement, particularly for stationary storage, but it won’t be appearing in Tesla vehicles any time soon.
The 1 million mile battery chemistry that professor says he formulated has a lower energy density than the current Panasonic cells. It also has a higher cobalt content, when Musk says they want to develop cobalt free cells. So there is no way that chemistry is being adopted. But that didn't stop Musk from tweeting about million mile batteries to gin up investors.
@@TroySavary Based on what we know so far yes, but they could be tweaking the recipe for better results and less cobalt? Or they could easily find a market for such a long lasting battery in thousands of applications outside of tesla cars. Storage, Rockets, Mars, phones,laptops,hybrids?
@@RemoteSpeed007 Cobalt is extremely rare, and comes from conflict prone areas of Africa mostly. It would be foolish to rely on it more in a time when everyone is working to rid batteries of the metal.
@@EMichaelBall Correct. 7:50 to 8:10 he talks about the Hibar jelly role not being compatible with Maxwells dry battery technology. I think, although I could be wrong, that Maxwell's new tech is dry electrode not dry cell.
It is funny watching every car maker clone tesla design features. They will never make a car better or cheaper than a tesla, if they make it similar in look and design to a tesla, it will always look like a cheap knock off. There is going to be a lot of downsizing and bankruptcies in the traditional auto industry as they learn no one is willing to pay money for a car that gets no software updates, has less range, and has much slower charging.
I think you are confused about what the Maxwell technology is. Maxwell's technology breakthrough is about Dry Battery Electrode (DBE), not Dry Battery. They have designed a dry system to produce the electrode, that removes all of the solvents that are currently required. Maxwell batteries still require a liquid/paste electrolyte. So these two technologies (Maxwell - Hibar) are in perfect synergy.
Mining is historically not the cleanest of industries when, for example, using diesel powered drills, trucks and other vehicles on site. There is however a clean way to do it that mining companies have ignored or neglected. The Boring Company use electric drills when boring tunnels. Looking at Nouveau Monde, a mining company in Canada, they are all electric in their mining processes and more companies will have to follow in the future. Tesla has a huge advantage since they have Elon Musk that thinks about using his companies to benefit each other. Using Model 3 batteries to power the Boring Machine, using Tesla vehicles to transport materials to and from the sites, and so on. It takes time because there are a lot of moving parts and more to come. The Semi Truck and other future vehicles will be late as a result but reinventing industries takes time, especially if they are working against you.
The presenter said that Hibar's tech could fill 120 cells per minute. One machine then can barely do one battery pack per hour..... gonna need LOTS of machines!
Yes sorry that was what Maxwell sells to its customers according to its website. I expect Tesla will push them to boost that, and yeah lots of machines
For me it looks as though Tesla doesn't really want their battery design but their manufacturing prowess. They want them to integrate their Maxwell solution into a their new battery production facilities, probably near gigafactory 3.
It will be exactly like Grohmann in germany. Tesla couldn't get the equipment it needed fast enough and couldn't get the customization they wanted for a reasonable price. So they bought the company to make sure the company worked on their stuff and delivered it first, before working on equipment for other customers. By buying hibar, they get priority over all other customers and can get all the customization they want at cost, instead of paying a high markup. They money they pay for these companies is less than the markup they would have paid to get priority over other customers if they didn't own them.
When are these "entrepreneurs" going to produce something affordable for poor people that will make their lives easier instead of fleecing the well-off with tech that is cheaper and easier to produce than the previous fossil fuel based stuff.
@Pun Jab I oh, come on cheer up, it is not that bad... just 4 months ago it was at 190, right now at about 230.. and 4% is not tanking, just a little dip.. and highly unjustified and unfair, so probably will go up the next few days, you'l see.
Just to let everyone one know Maxwell technology and Hibar are fully compatible. All lithium ion batteries have DRY electrodes. However in MAKING the electrodes involved wet solvents which must then be dried in ovens which take a lot of space and time adding significantly to the cost. However the Maxwell dry electrode refers to how the electrodes are MADE eliminating the drying ovens so reducing the battery costs. These new electrodes are then used to make a standard jelly roll lithium ion battery. When Maxwell tested the lithium ion batteries using their new electrodes they found that the batteries performed better across across most parameters. Giving better power density and greatly increased power cycling. This will probably plus other improvements form part of Tesla upcoming million mile battery. Finally super capacitors are not really much use in an EV as all they can help with is peak power (when the car is accelerating or breaking VERY hard) Tesla currently does not have a problem with slow acceleration! Peak power is achieved by using lots of cells in parallel. So for example if a Tesla car had all its batteries replaced with the same weight of super capacitors. The super capacitors would have 10 the volume, cost 10 times as much and only be able to power the car for about 5 minutes!
On the track, Tesla has had issues with battery temperature, and consistent high power output in endurance situations. As a result, they haven't performed as well on the track as the 0-60 and quarter mile promise (should be completely crushing Porsche). This may be changing if the plaid S prototype unofficial Nurburgring time is indicative of where we are headed. In any case, it seems a reasonable hypothesis that supplementing the battery with a small supercapacitor would solve all of these problems. I'm wondering if that's what's in the plaid prototype! What do you think?
@@Seehart Hmm, I am not convinced that any super caps will make it into either the plaid mode model S or the roadster, but I could be wrong. The only reason that I can think of adding a super cap to an EV is to prevent battery wear. Some ICE cars use super caps save battery wear when automatically restarting the engine after every time the car is stationary. But then again with this upcoming million mile battery, battery wear will not be an issue. My guess for the plaid mode model S is that they have totally redesigned the battery compartment and motors with improved cooling using lessons learned from the model 3. I also think they have added another motor to the model S. If you think about it, the V3 super chargers allow the car to be charged at 1000 mph. If you can put that peak power into the battery you can also in theory pull that amount of power out of the batteries when accelerating. The roadster has a massive range which needs a giant battery which should be able to handle the peak power I think.
@@louisbarman those are really good points, especially the V3 charge rate. And if the roadster had a supercapacitor, I can't explain why it would have the excessive range. I think you're right.
...on the other hand, if Tesla announces that the roadster range is reduced to 300 miles (along with slightly improved performance), I'd take that as a strong hint that they're adding a supercapacitor.
4:45 Tesla has to expand this Aqusition (after the merging process is complete) Maybe. A Sister Gigafactory right next to the main one that churns out Batterys 24/7 365. Automated but Monitered. That helps fron people getting hurt from these Batterys.
Unless you convert all possible mining operations to electric. Recently saw a mining operation that had purchased electric dump trucks. These retrieved a large % of their energy by regenerative charging every time they drove back down into the mine pit while also saving lots of money on break parts and service.
Tesla at its heart is a battery/energy company. The current 'cash cows' are the transportation sector, but they need to get battery production in-house to really complete the vertical integration. IMHO the Battery segment can be a larger company than the transportation portion, depending on how Tesla plays their hand. I look forward to seeing how it comes out in the wash. Right now, batteries are the nemesis of all EV manufacturers, and no-one else is really as vertically integrated as it looks like Tesla can be if they can secure the ground, do the mining, refining and battery manufacture. -- This is what Ford did in the early days with their own foundries to feed their own factories... It served the well for years.
Cathode and Anod is what I think Maxwell decreases cost and increases quality on. I believe the electrolyte gel allows for the transfer of elections, am I right? So this acquisition just provides a cheaper way to add electrolyte solutions to batterie cells. That’s my take.
For me it seems that the Battery Solution is to use both types of batteries. The new dry cell Maxwell batteries for Rapid quick charging almost like a capacitor. ( remember that when he Lan was younger he obsessed about utilizing capacitors place of batteries) And standard batteries the long-term denser energy storage. An appropriate combination of the two should allow for Extraordinary rapid charge rate with relatively dense long-term energy storage at temperatures that are acceptable and sustainable. Most of the engineering bottlenecks that electric cars face can be relatively easily solved with a combination of the two
A couple conflations to clear up. Maxwell battery tech is dry electrode, not dry cell. It's just a much better/cheaper/greener way to manufacture the same kind of gel cells that Panasonic currently produces. Hibar adds the ability to fill the cells with electrolyte more efficiently. Together, Maxwell+Hibar increase quality and decrease cost, without significantly changing the basic architecture of the cell. In other words, there aren't two kinds of batteries to combine. Maxwell also knows how to make supercapacitors. Combining a supercapacitor with a battery is the combo that does what you describe. Better regen and more instant power without overheating. A supercap in the roadster (supplementing the battery) would make it unbeatable by any ICE car.
@@Seehart thank you for clarifying with a better understanding then I have. It's been years since I was in the Production Logistics game and followed this stuff religiously. Most people wouldn't realize that a small detail like that mattered enormously. Thank you it's nice to hear confirmation that my general assumptions on Tesla's plan could be correct. Considering what appears to be a thorough bass knowledge of these Concepts what is your view on a variable usage battery pack? My thought was to use 1/4 of the battery at a time. The only issues I would see would be a lifespan and complexity of execution issue. A million mile lifespan is an impressive goal yet not ridiculous considering the potential for self-driving rideshare. The new testing facility should figure out all of this out though.
1:00 I’m not sure that it could apply as much to laptop batteries. most of them are too slim for cylindrical cell batteries and use LiPo instead to get a custom shape.
