Tesla Battery Degradation - The results using real data and why the Plaid is the worst Tesla 

I would fully support this.

awesome PhD work! best of luck with your candidacy

in the interest of saving the world and everything we're told - that we have to buy a 100,000$ car or it's our fault the polar bears are dying - Tesla sure is preventing competition to learn about the data, manufacturing and maintenance practices. Wouldn't we expect to know about all this data so we are better suited to decide the best ways to help reduce carbon???

@@captainLoknar with that logic all data should be public. Should all patents be revoked, so everyone could manufacture low carbon items?

@@meSOOlame if someone demonstrates they can do it better they should be issued a new patent. Just off the top of my head I think I've achieved more than the whole IMF, the green initiatives of the neoliberal parties around the world and Gretel Thornburg the past decade. But my whole point was to expose Tesla and their owners as hypocrites. Capitalists virtue signaling as environmentalists

That was my guess. People buying the more expensive car don’t care about battery life

Oddly enough, take an ICE powered performance car, use that performance a lot, and it wears out sooner too :)

​@@PiDsPagePrototypes buy BMW M, drive it like a mad man and it costs the price of Plaid in repairs during that time.

Just cope in the comments

Btw Plaid. Pronounced Plad. Not Played.

L2?

Jesus. I had a M3 long range in Hawaii. 35k miles and was down to 282 at full charge

Sounds like my '15 90D. Bought with 50k miles and 264 RM. At 140k, it is down to 258-259 RM. 50% Supercharge, Level 2 charge at 8 kW.

​@@ssing7113 this is common mistake. Tesla will show you range at full charge based on your driving habits - not actually battery degradation. This is very important to know. On top of that - dont charge your care above 85% unless you are going to long trip right away. After all you are at Hawaii - how much range you need per one trip?

Tesla doesn't take into account driving habits on the range when charging or at the top of the screen. We have another video debunking some of the myths about the range display.

The bigger the battery, the longer it´s lifetime is. It is the same as with Laptops and other devices.

The bigger the battery, the more of its energy is needed to carry it self around.

Leaf has horrible tempeeature management...

@@ABa-os6wmThe Leaf has NO temperature management at all.

Yes. You are also always pushing a little battery as full and as empty as it can manage. Also for the same motor power the smaller battery is pulling a higher 'C' rating meaning its working a lot harder. I think even with temperature management Leafs would still have degraded horribly.

I think the MEB lifespans should be fine cause most of these cars are around 170-300 HP so maximum like the Standard Range Model 3. So I dont think they will have more than 5% over 100k miles.

It's somewhere on tesla info. 6:24 shows headline and date. You can move frame by frame with , and .

It is, but if you go to the website, this data is nowhere to be found. It seems not to be publicly avaliable.

@@Piimentayeah, I was looking for it myself and I thought already I’m stupid ot what.

We look at some of the outliers briefly in the second video in the series and temperature doesn't account for them, but we'll be looking at it again in the next video

From the research I’ve done, high battery temperatures lead to physical cell casting stress and higher chance for pack failure. Supercharging in the afternoon on a hot day to 85-100% is the absolute worst torture to the battery pack and delivery drivers who do it daily have had to replace their packs around 100K miles in a few cases I’ve seen.

Wondering the same thing. In Australia here temperatures are extreme, I will never buy outright an electric car however I would lease one so I am not stuck with a dude car at the end, I can just give it back.

@@mylesgray3470 Link to the research? I'm seeing anecdotes whereas TeslaInfo's "not really" answer is derived from the data. Very interested in the further deep dive myself as well, but I'm curious what makes you dissatisfied with this answer.

Degradation definitely levels out to minimal post 100k miles, drops off a lot after 50k.

@@wakeywarrior so the battery life is nearly infinite? Please explain why that should be the case. A new battery degrades faster than an old worn out battery? Please explain why that should be the case. Both of these statements are false. An old battery wears out faster than a new battery. It’s just that the wear does not manifest as loss of capacity. It occurs at the molecular level and performance remains relatively constant for most of the time until it really starts falling off a cliff or dies suddenly. There is a huge difference between useful capacity and remaining life or degradation. Imagine a hypothetical battery that gets exactly 100 cycles and experiences zero capacity degradation during that time. The lack of capacity loss will make the analysis in the video trick you into believing there is zero degradation after cycle 99. But obviously after cycle 100 the battery will completely stop working. In fact the battery experienced 99% degradation after cycle 99. Again, so you believe tesla batteries degrade then stop degrading and last forever after a while? People want to know how many miles total to expect out of the useful life of the battery. They want to know when they will need to buy a new battery. Imagine if the batteries that appear to stabilize are actually hitting their failure point. What if the reason why you don’t see the trend continue downwards is because after a battery reaches 60kwh or whatever, it fails before it hits 59 kWh and hence the trend doesn’t have much 59 kWh data because the batteries are all failing? You have to be really careful making statements about degradation and remaining life of systems that are highly nonlinear.

just another "real life test"..

@@izoyt Yep. Ironically, everybody wants to know how long the battery will last, but it appears they excluded all failed batteries from their analysis. Where is the plot that only looks at batteries that have failed and logs the number of miles driven until failure for each?

Unfortunately there's no way to see that via the API data we have access to.

There were a few outliers that were way off and that may be the dude with the model 3 in an apartment..so mostly supercharging? Apartments usualy have level 2 chargers now so if you are driving a model 3 and still in the hood, with no home charging options, you were made for the hood.

Not only is "only supercharging" most likely bad for battery life, it costs a lot more than charging at home ( unless you are grandfathered into the free supercharging like my wife's 2016 model X is ), so that's two reasons to avoid doing that more than you have to.

kWh

Thanks for letting me know most of the used market are full of duds.

@@altSt0rm I would say if you're looking, check what the mileage says at 100% charge. Don't just look to see it say "100%". You have to switch it to miles and see what that says. The Tesla community also isn't helpful here because they all say the same thing "just switch it to percent and don't focus on the miles" but my car had abnormal battery degradation but Tesla wouldn't do anything until it was under 70% because they considered 87% of the max capacity "normal" at 20k miles. Also, Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that exaggerates their range figures. So I've learned to subtract 20% from the max capacity for daily use because they only recommend charging from 10% on the low side, up to 90% on the high side. Then subtract an additional 15% if you plan to drive on the highway at speed. If you do the math there, that's closer to a real-world figure for range.

Tesla is by no stretch of imagination the only company that exaggerates the range of their vehicles ! 😂 Also what ICE vehicle,for that matter, actually returns the mpg advertised ?😂

@@stephencrowther524 I'm a Honda guy, my previous cars like my Civic that was rated at 27mpg hwy would easily get me 32mpg hwy if set to 70mph. My Acura MDX was rated at 27mpg hwy would get me 27.5mpg set to 75mph on the hwy. My other civics that were rated at 36mog would easily get 40mpg+ on the hwy. Maybe other ICE brands don't advertise accurate fuel economy, but that's not what my comment was about. My Tesla was drastically worse than advertised even at better than the rated 220 wh/m. As for other EV brands, I can only go off of reviews I've seen online for range tests. Kia, Chevy, Hyundai, etc all seem to do better than or at least meet the range expectations set by the manufacturer in the real world driving.

@@RobertoMezquiaJrwhen Stephen brings up ICE cars - totally irrelevant to anything you said - he reveals his childish anguish lol.

Exactly! It's also another important information regarding battery longevity, theoretically speaking it should affect all batteries but LFPs are affected less. There is a video on youtube where they do a drag race between two Tesla models that have the same claimed acceleration but the one several years old, ends up accelerating significantly slower (by significantly I mean it was easily measurable, it wasn't a big difference or a big deal)

We're doing a few follow up videos to answer questions raised, the next one in on hyper mileage cars up to 250k miles, but a more detailed look at batterys and factories is also in the pipeline. As for the outliers, we've taken a look at a few low readings on the hypermile video and there's nothing obvious about them, I guess there could just be bad batteries in the mix, and we do see the same cars reporting low capacity repeatedly, but we also know the process for calculating the capacity extrapolates some values and at the extremes can cause noise. What does seem to be the case is that the 30% degradation limit is rarely being threatened and I would be surprised if many have their battery replaced because of degradation and not because of signs of serious pack failure.

Plan to sell mine about a year or 12-15k miles before the warranty runs out.

@@jruerph That's the inevitability...

Thank you. Sadly not as we don;t have access to the data in the same way on those models.

Fitting a line makes assumptions about the data which may not be true.

If you want to know where a car was built you can look at the VIN, our website has a VIN decoder but there's a letter just before the number that tells you the factory, F is fremont/US, C is China, B is Berlin, in Europe we don't get any from Austin Texas

The 22 uses AMD HW instead of Intel, that's more important

There are more differences. LG Chem is better at cold temperature. Pana can deliver more power, this also means it will super charge a bit faster.

We'll put it on the todo list. If we can identify the battery we should be able to do it.

@@Tesla-Info The MY 4680 pack is the worst Tesla battery with respect to charging. It has anecdotal evidence indicating higher degradation so far. Looking forward to any data you can put together. We have one if you need any details. Model Y AWD standard range 4680.

You don't say which model or how you got an 11% figure, but the charts a 2021 LR would be in the range 71-76kwh using the API method we, tessie etc use which is a wide spread and 11% would be at one end of that. We'd suggest you follow the advice here to calibrate your BMS and balance yur sells which might help tesla-info.com/guide/tesla-bms-calibration.php

@@Tesla-Info Thanks. SR + , LFP

My Toyota Corolla has 396,000 miles and still runs great without any repairs except a $50 water pump. How well do these vehicles do at 400,000 miles. My Toyota Corolla will still go 380 miles per tank, how about the battery cars at that mileage?

@@Bryan-Hensley Just like my 1994 bmw 318 tds takes 5 minutes to refill and i refill it anywhere; and it gives off good heat in winter, i don't need to wear a blanket with the heater off, like many do in the cold...

@@josepeixoto3384 we will probably get shadow banned from this channel. Many of these types of people live in echo chambers. They don't allow logical intelligence people to intervene and mess up their fantasies.

​@@Bryan-HensleyBut can you make your own fuel for your corolla at home for free?

@@JustifyJustin nope and you can't generate power for your EV for free. I tried that crap. Each of my solar panels do good to produce 75 cents per day in power. They only work well for about 4 hours per day. I live in East Tennessee and we have hazy days 80 percent of the summer, which cuts the output of my 250 watt panels down to 70 watts. I'd need a half acre of solar panels to even think about changing an EV, and on top of that, I'd only be able to charge in the afternoons.

We're working on some updated charts including rated v displayed range and looking at % differences as well as absolute. We'll see if we can show the % or kwh change from new along side that.

Depends if the getting superchgd or overnight chgd

Oh my god!

Leafs are notorious for their battery degradation but it sounds like letting the car sit unused for months was what actually killed the battery in your case.

@@FrostyAUT good to know. Will stay away like the plague

@@FrostyAUT yes

Can u cite your data source

API data

You can benchmark your car using the guide here, we do use the API and we explain the results as part of the output. (There's also a video which shows it in action) tesla-info.com/guide/tesla-battery-capacity.php

We've another video that looks at the hyper miles in more detail, including examples up to 200k miles

@@Tesla-Info Yep! Watched it already. I'm assuming this isn't all drivers, yes? Just people who opted into sharing data with Tesla?

After having my wife's model 2016 75 kWh model X and keeping it limited to 80% for daily use, per Tesla's recommendations except when going on road trips, I was a bit surprised when I got a 2022 model 3 SR with the LFP cells and they said to go to 100% once a week.. Hers has 70k miles now and mine has 8k miles and hers has gone from 220 to 215 or so miles of range, but mine ( never supercharged ) has gone from 265 to 260 in the much shorter time and mileage.

@@phillipsusi1791 the curve isn’t linear. So don’t worry too much about that. It will probably drop off to hardly anything. Also be aware the LFP battery due to chemistry has a problem calibrating and determining exactly how much battery is left and ‘slips’ in its estimate quicker. So run it right down and charge it right back up again. Also the mileage estimate isn’t a great measure of battery health.

@@wakeywarrior My wife's model X didn't lose those 5 miles in the first year, or even two, or three, so I'm a little concerned that it seems to be faster so far on my model 3. When I'm driving around town, I'm less worried about how accurate the range is and more worried about long term life, so I might just decide to screw keeping the range accurate and top up to 85% a few times per week to get longer life. And what do you mean the mileage estimate isn't a great measure of the battery health? That is *the* measure of the battery health.

Sounds like you could write a wonderful research paper on this

You dont need ML. Just basic statistical regression.

All of which they are exposed to more over mileage generally...so it's a reasonable, if not infallible proxy.

How do you check your battery degradation - by the estimate range at 100% charge vs EPA rating?

@@PaulPushkarov The Tessie app calculates this with Algorithms. It's not 100% exact but it's astonishingly close to reality. I think that's also how the data was collected for this video.

If you visit our website you can provide some data and we'll calculate it for you, we've been doing it for several years and Tessie have either copied us or come to the same conclusions completely independantly..

Good point. A Tesla usually gets tons of heavy acceleration the first 5,000 miles because of the instant torque sensation. Once the first set of tires is done things usually calm down. So the rather steep decline at first could be an indicator for the toll that aggressive driving takes on the battery. Should have gone with a super capacitor…

That's a very good point, and it's still a major hurdle in 2nd hand EV sales: the fear of getting a lemon. One would hope that the number of outliers is small enough for manufacturers to assume the risk; basically guaranteeing the battery for a certain remaining capacity after a certain amount of miles.

I do wonder if those outliers are a result of being in cold conditions, since that would affect the battery year-round, though not sure if this is accounted for in the data

​@@kaasmeester5903 there should be a stated test what the capacity is. Not bot comparing it with ice engine health. Its like only looking how much fuel goes into it because it is a very very very important information for evs. The last part only as precaution 😅

@@gir1258would be very interesting to see for example Nordic only data and how much the cold & therefore less range and more cycles affects the degradation.

We'd be speculating, but the LFP batteries which are now frequently used as the smaller battery is a different technology, and the larger batteries are often in the more powerful cars and maybe subjected to harder use.

Possibly the smaller packs with reduced heat load have similar or the same thermal management system as the larger packs.

And have you been charging past 80%?

@@rkgsd rarely but not never

@@thedownwardmachine I've always thought constant Supercharging is a little harder on the battery than say level 2 40amp/10kw charging. Unfortunately, many EV owners don't have access to home charging. It also depends on how far down the battery is drained. Better not to go too much less than 20% remaining.

@@rkgsd I agree, otoh a 300mi battery charging 20% to 80% effectively only has 180mi range between fill ups, which sucks. This is why 500mi batteries are actually important and I want one.

The only way to know is force Tesla to open up their API so open-source community can collect informative data to form an accurate conclusion which will never happen.

@@GBR9794 they might tell somewhere what the data actually represents. But it's in their interest to make the data appear favorable, of course... And obviously they don't want competitors to get too much insights.

Arent APIs public? You just have to know how to use them.

I actually meant the opposite. The 85 battery cars suffered from something known as Batterygate where a software update dropped the range and charge speed on a lot of those cars giving them a bad reputation. Tesla have reversed much of that and the battery now looks pretty normal compared to others.

You could probably research it, it’s likely hidden by their respective companies though

Based on the data, just like you said, it likely can be correlated to aggressive use vs battery makeup with exception of the China battery which seems superior for the data set.

Be sure. My Model 3 LR with 100K miles /165K km degraded only 5,5% at this moment and the degradation even went down from 6,5% to 5,5% in the last 30K driven! I am only driving in Chill mode, never accelerate fast, my lifetime average usage over the 100K mi is 150Wh/km or 242Wh/Mi.

Yes, outside parking is a problem to ALL cars. Look for a car shed or solar roof in any case. If you own some PV you also can climatize your car which is good for you, the interior and batteries too.

Well, if you asking from the point of battery dergadation, than probably no. It will not be heated enough because battery is not exposed to direct sunlight.

Calendar ageing - degradation is a function of time x temperature x state of charge. You can't do much about the first two, but you can keep a state of charge on minimum of what you need.