Glad to see they aren'trunning the coolant loop through the stator before the inverter like on the S/X. Perhaps this is a big part of the reason why the Model 3 can better handle being thrashed on a racetrack without going into thermal protection. Folks like Jack Rickard suspected that this was part of why the Model S had thermal problems under heavy use.
Reminds me somewhat of when Corvettes were overheating a few years back, the engineering answer was to reverse the water pump direction so flow went backwards. This kept the critical parts in contact with cooler water.
Keep in mind this motor design (PMSRM) is way more efficient than the motors used in the older S/X which were induction. An induction motor has a lot of loss in the rotor that PMSRM doesn't, so no need for such exotic cooling techniques.
Another amazing video - thanks for all this! Makes total sense that they cool in the order penthouse->inverter->motor/gearbox, given that that's increasing order of heat tolerance. I guess the only thing I don't see here, unless I missed it, is cabin heating. Looks like there's no direct linkage between the glycol loop(s) and the cabin? Just purely resistive, then?
Yes, same as S/X; a PTC resistance heater only. Sadly, They couldn't be bothered to add about $15 of parts to add a heat pump function. Even Nissan Leaf has one. As far as using waste heat in the cabin though, there just isn't enough. In fact in cold climes, they need to add extra heat to keep the pack warm.
Ingineerix Leaf has a heat pump because it has a small battery and it matters. With the large batteries in Tesla, it’s mostly not necessarily. Edge cases, sure, but generally not.
I've seen some 'This Old House' videos talking about heat pumps with "Inverter technology" (Whatever that is) supposed to be able to scavenge more heat at lower temps than just plain old heat pumps. Probably still just an added heating element somewhere. Makes one wonder though. Still wold be a good idea for down to 40s temps and then just boost with elements below that.
Tuttomenui some top of the line heat pumps are smart enough to know how much colder they can go below 32°F before freezing up totally by monitoring dew point, refrigerant pressures, airflow, and such
Just came across this from 2 years ago. I'm amazed at the countless number of coolant hose connections, "Y" pieces, "T" pieces, clips, clamps, brackets, etc, and all made of plastic for lightness. This thing will be fine for a couple of years until the plastic becomes brittle and then it will leak like a sieve.
I would be surprised if under normal use there are any leaks within 10 years. Most cars now days have plastic tanks on the radiators, plastic valve covers, etc. and they are not all breaking down and leaking 2 years later.
The internal combustion engine (ICE) automobiles have evolved at a glacial pace since the early 1900's. Sure improvements and innovations were made, but Tesla has taken a clean slate approach and completely upended the industry. Once I drove one, I knew there was no going back.
Awesome videos, I love learning more about the inner workings of my car. Hope you make more! One thing I'm curious about is what the cabin air filter looks like and where it is.
Replying years after the video was made but found it very interesting and informative. I would have liked a slower pan of the camera and pulled back some times as the camera movement and rotation especially moving front to rear and back was hard to follow. Any idea what the min and max temps are and what the min and max pressures in the system are?
You'll have to hold that camera way back so we can see where you are at, and don't have a headache like we are playing DOOM3D back in 90's ; ) And pointing at the locations with your finger would be super helpful.
I wanna know how the air-conditioning in these cars work... Is there a Compressor that is just ran from a electric moter? Or what? I can't find anything on Aur Condition of the Tesla.
5:10 Tesla is modulating probably "a bit" of DC over the AC signal. DC on AC motors heats up the stator windings without rotation. In fact, it produces a "brake" torque to standstill. So THAT means, Tesla is modulating a DC current on the motor AND have to increase the AC current to compensate the "brake torque" with higher "drive torque" - as far as I suggest. Maybe some experts know more and comments are welcome. :-)
Can you explain me about the air conditioning system used in Model 3, the details of the compressor used in air conditioning system, how it is powered up?
It uses power from the main traction battery to power a separate, small, electric motor connected to the compressor. Similar to an electric air conditioner for an RV or "window unit". Except it's more like a heat pump for your home that can be reversed to create heat or cool air.
Thanks for the video, was wondering what your thoughts are on potential rust. You've seen the internal workings, and potential areas that could rust. Do you feel the car will stand up to harsh winter conditions and road salt?
Well, I'm not a materials expert, but I can tell you that all the steel used appears to be fully galvanized. Paint coverage and sealing on panel joints appears to be well done. Since most auto manufacturers have now switched to galvanized steel, rust is just not as much a problem as it used to be. (And while I currently live in California, I was born in Detroit)
So there is no direct path from the battery or motor cooling circuit to a air to water radiator? It all passes through HVAC? Or are the two blue hoses on the four way valve used to do that?
Enjoying your videos. Thanks for sharing. I live up north in a harsher winter environment and have been researching battery heating in the model 3. At 5:02 you mention the absence of a battery heater. A Tesla document filed with EPA mentions use of an inline heating element to raise the pack temperature. Could this be a hidden part you’re not seeing? Thus not requiring waste heat and actually draw directly from shore power or the pack to heat itself?
The 3 uses the drive inverter to heat the pack. It just operates an in intentionally inefficient manner (while moving), or by just circulating current while stationary. The cool thing is, no additional heater needed, just some crafty software. Another trick they use to get the cost down and reliability up.
So all cooling goes through the AC system, meaning that all cooling requires the compressor to be running. Ignoring cost and weight, wouldn't it be better to have an additional loop to pass the glycol coming from the battery directly at a air-glycol radiator instead of having to use the AC system? Because the AC is limited by the power of the compressor, I've heard about 7-8 kW, so about 21-24 kW of cooling giving a COP of 3. The battery alone at 250 kW supercharging would produce about 22 kW of heat considering 56 miliohm internal resistance I've read online. The system I'm asking about probably would give a good increase in cooling capacity for situations that require a lot of cooling, like using the car on the track then supercharging it (I'm not suggesting everybody does that 🤣), what i mean is just increasing cooling capacity without having to use a beefier AC system.
The system can already do what you describe, even the older systems. There is a 5-way valve that can be configured to cool passively (radiator), dump heat into another system (such as motor to battery), or actively cool using the compressor. On the newer systems there is a heat pump with many more configurations, which still include a passive radiator loop.
Well done, thanks. I was wondering about the creature comfort A/C. I think you ran by it quickly near the end of this video. Do you know...is it a conventional compressor? I was wondering how that compressor was propelled. Is there a service system motor that turns only the compressor? Or does it provide mechanical motion for other devices as well? A co-worker remarked that it may be an all-in-one design with the motor and compressor in the same housing, and that does seem pretty likely because we couldn't think of anything else that an auxiliary motor would be used for in the car. Thanks again for the very well done video.
Hey Ingineerix , Thanks for the great video! Suppose the A/C system had a leak and wasn't cooling the cabin properly would the cooling of the battery and powertrain also be negatively affected?
Yes, but mostly only for supercharging. The BMS would see the high-temperature and reduce the charging speed to protect the cells. It's worth getting the A/C fixed if it's not working though. One of the most common sources of leaks in automotive A/C systems is the compressor seal, which doesn't exist on a Tesla, so this makes the system way more reliable. I'd say usually the A/C system will outlast the rest of the car, as long as there is no mechanical damage, etc.
@@Ingineerix Thank you very much! The SC recently fixed the issue and I believe they replaced a seal or o-ring, honestly I'm not exactly sure of the term but I'm glad that it didn't damage anything else. Really appreciate your advice.
So the glycol coolant is cooled entirely through the AC system and not just assisted by it? No coolant radiator to upgrade if you wanted to improve cooling capacity, like with an ICE car?
No, the heat in the glycol from the powertrain is shed to the radiator or sent to the battery pack if it's cold. The A/C is used to chill the glycol going into the battery pack so it can be chilled during supercharging.
Ah ok, thanks. Makes me wonder if a higher capacity radiator with high CFM fans could help with the thermal issues even further, even though they are already much less on the 3 than the S.
The pumps are brushless and have no shaft seals, and since there are low thermal deltas, I don't expect any problems, nor really any needed maintenance, save for cleaning the radiator fins maybe.
Hello, did you happen to observe the Glycol type used? (standard Automotive Polyethylene or Polypropylene -non-toxic industrial & often hydronic heat pumps )
I didn't see an actual radiator, only the fins on the heat exchanger on the motor. Is there a radiator and fan that you didn't show? Seems like during DC Fast charging the batteries will be generating a lot of heat from their internal resistance. Does the Model 3 rely on that chiller as the sole point of heat bleed? The base Model 3 (50 kWh battery) will have less cells to disperse the DC fast charging energy thus raising the C rating of the battery activity (unless they throttle it more.) I believe the Bolt folks have claimed under DC fast charging in a very hot location, the Bolt starts whiring its radiator cooling fans at max speed to try to keep those stressed cells cool.
Pretty amazing camera work considering the cooling system never goes out of frame, loses focus, nor suffers from camera shake. Tell us about your camera rig please.
I am far from a "professional" videographer. I am just using a Pixel 2XL and (sometimes) a hand-held gimbal stabilizer. I try to do as many of these in one take as I can, that way I can avoid having to struggle with the editing. The one take method has taught me a lot though! My problem is finding the spare time to setup and shoot something, even with one take it's still time consuming.
Thanks for the video. Some questions regarding to the frond-end cooling. Are those 2 blue hoses are from and to radiators? Then standard radiator and condenser are used for this application? Maybe on your other Model3 videos.
I added the blue silicone hoses, as the original radiator and it's hoses were damaged in the accident that totaled this car. My "radiator" is a Honda heater core.
Any idea how many miles consumed to get it from 80F high humidity outside to 70F inside overnight and parked (11pm to 6am)? I'm thinking like less than 30 miles?
Hey Ingineerix , Very nice video indeed. Thank you. I have one question about the white material over the corrugated pipe in the junction area with Quick Connector. Do you know the reason why is it there ? To improve the tightness level between QC and pipe ? Also do you know which material is it ? Thanks a bunch for your feedback.
I am a new M3 owner and now that summer temperatures have arrived I am experiencing the automatic cooling that the car does when it heats up when parked. I understand this can be disabled but I am wondering if there is any harm in making this change? Thoughts?
whats the name of the connectors? they must be rather good quality, if they can be taken off/on rather useful, I know ice cars connectors are prone to all sorts of issues.
Where do the AC loops drop their condensation? is it channeled somewhere specific? I want to know where the water puddle from the AC will appear under my upcoming car.
The amount of glue at 1:20. That's crazy! It even looks like they tried to wipe the squeeze out off. Unless this is the crashed chassis and someone did a repair on it?
Ingineerix Interesting. It looked like squeeze out from the bonding agent they put between components, but if it's sound damping material, WOW is it dampened. Thanks for the videos!
Trying to figure out simply if I use a car cover to block sunlight and the Model 3 is trying to keep the cabin from overheating, does the car cover block any heat escape or required air flow? Because it looks like the cover is getting sucked into an air intake vent below the windshield above the frunk.
The area below the windshield is the fresh air intake for the cabin. It would only be used if recirc is not enabled. I would imagine a car cover would overall result in less heat in the cabin, so should be fine. As long as the car can draw air into the radiator in front, it should be ok.
How is the radiator connected to the circuits? Does the 4 way valve control this? Has somebody made a circuit diagram of this cooling system? I’m trying but can’t figure it out. Great video btw!!
I will make a diagram at some point. Yes, the one electrically-actuated valve (actually more then 4-way) acts like a series/parallel valve for the 2 cooling circuits, and also can bypass the radiator.
Ingineerix: Very awesome! That's the right way to do that valve! Each item has different needs at different times and in different conditions, so having all options available is in my opinion either necessary or close to it.
It's been brought up in other Tesla forums that the service interval in the OM is brake fluid replacement every 2 years or 25,000 miles and battery coolant every 4 years or 50,000 miles. Some asked about the cost and was told that Tesla service charges $199 for the brake fluid change and $900 for the coolant change. Those prices and intervals seem excessive to me. Could you comment on the subject? What type of coolant is used and how hard could it possibly be? I thought the actual friction brakes in an EV are minimaully used so why the need for frquent brake fluid replacement?
I would probably adjust these based on my climate/use. Where I live (SF area) and the car is stored indoors, so less temp swing, I would do brake fluid every 4 years and coolant should go 8 years. Brake fluid is Hygroscopic, so eventually it takes in moisture and starts becoming an issue.
Also the A/C can't heat the cabin? Originally I thought it would be a heat pump and be bi directional... however it seems now that cabin heat is just simply a resistive element.
As AC tech I wonder why they decided to left it without heatpump. I wonder if the recycling of the waste heat from the motor and inverter is used to supply the heating system of the cabin and could replace the savings of a HP?
I've heard never but have no way to verify that. On previous Tesla models, they had no filter and the fluid is replaced every 50k (after initial 10k replacement during break-in period). It's not oil, but transmission fluid. I believe the filter is to allow for a much longer life.
It's just to filter the fine metallic particles created as the gears bed in I would think. I was surprised by how much 'swarf' was on the magnet of my 104k mile Nissan leafs gearbox plug when I checked it recently, the entire magnet was coated. There is no obvious gear or bearing noise but I'll definitely change the fluid soon , probably twice over as there's very little in there anyway.
Sadly, they chose not to do this. I think the nominal cost would have been worth it. There isn't enough waste heat from the powertrain because it's so efficient, but a "standard" air-derived heat pump would be useful, especially in milder climates. I suspect Tesla just wants you to preheat your cabin while on "shore power", that way it doesn't cut into your range as much. Other EV makers such as Nissan and Kia chose to add them, but of course it matters more on those cars with much smaller battery packs.
The corrugated split-loom is not used for strain relief, it's designed to protect the wiring from chafing, abrasion and pinching. The wires are strain-relieved inside the connector housing by a silicone boot and crimp on each line. It's a well-proven design.
I am replacing the motor in my 2018 Model 3. How much oil and coolant is required, and what specs are they? (old motor was removed before I got the car, so I have no idea how much was drained out)
Both front are rear DU's use Synthetic ATF-9, and the total capacity is 2750mL. Coolant is Tesla G-48, but any "blue" glycol-based pre-mixed coolant is fine. Add as needed to coolant reservoir fill line.
This is great. Thanks a lot. Do you have any idea how much coolant is used in the model 3? My research tells me that the Model S uses 27 quarts. Is the Model 3 roughly the same?
They are compression rings to ensure the tubing doesn't come off the barbs in the fittings they are pressed on to. They aren't overmolded, I would say they are heat shunk tube sections, or just cold expanded with some sort of tool. They are not soft, and the tubing is on the barbs so tightly, it cannot be rotated.
What is your estimate of cooling/heating total hoses length. I want to calculate hoses total surface area relative to heat losses in cold climate due to not been isolated.
This will be very difficult. There are a lot of components, and parts of some hoses are corrugated, and others run in an enclosed area so will transfer less thermal energy. The hoses probably have nothing on the thermal sinking capacity of the big aluminum castings in the drive unit where there is a heat exchanger. I think any estimates will be wildly inaccurate.
Yes, for the gear oil in the drive unit. However unlike a gas engine which quickly contaminates and degrades the oil because of fuel and combustion going on which gets into the oil, a fixed gear does not really contaminate the oil in the same way. You may have some wear materials from break in and over time, but those are minimal and can be held by a typical magnet as in many cars, and the oil is not otherwise affected. Because it is a fixed gear and closed system, the filter and oil can be used for a long time without needing replacement or degrading the oil.
It wold definitely not catch fire. It would active cool, but likely would shorten the battery pack's life if it was stored at this temperature all the time. But since the highest recorded temperature on earth was only 56.7 °C (134.1 °F), it's unlikely to experience that temperature unless you park it in an oven. Strangely enough that temperature was recorded not all that far from where I live; over in Death Valley, CA. (~500 miles)
@@Ingineerix thanks alot for the info. Seems to be operational most of the time except for those few extreme weeks here in kuwait. Death valley has the Guinness record for the hottest temp because they disregard areas with asphalt since its not fair to compare asphalt with desert soil. Asphalt temp in direct sun in kuwait reaches 159F (i measured it with infrared thermometer) crazy temp I'm afraid it would blow up my workplace if the lithium batteries expand LOL
The Asphalt gets that hot because it absorbs a lot of infrared. Once you park a car over it and the sun is blocked, there isn't enough thermal mass there to heat up the pack via convection even to what you might find it at during supercharging. You need to heat the pack WAY higher than that before it's in any danger of exploding. Generally anywhere you can park a car with a tank of petrol/gasoline and not have it explode, you can park an EV.
@@Ingineerix i forgot a phone in the car and it snapped the back cover because the battery expanded. That incedent made me pull the brakes on buying an EV until i make sure that doesn't happen if parked in direct sun. Your info sounds really good. Appreciated.
The inside of the car is a greenhouse! The glass allows IR in, but no air movement to cool the inside. Not a reasonable comparison unless you park an EV inside another car! Also, the phone has no way to cool itself. There are plenty of EV's all over hot climates in the Middle East and they do not explode.
I assume you mean the cabin blower motor? It is a brushless design with the controller built into VCLEFT, so I can't imagine this will ever need replacing, it should last the life of the car. If you did want to access it, doesn't look like too difficult of a job.
@@Ingineerix I went the rich rebuilds route and bought a totaled TM3 with a blower that is making a horrible sound and getting jammed sometimes. I tried blowing it out and no luck and looking at it with a boroscope and didn't see anything. I really have to get at it and it looks like you have to take apart the whole HVAC assembly in the service manual to get to it
@@sparc5 It just removes from the HVAC case with 3 screws from the left side. Yeah, you might not be able to get to it with the dash installed, I don't know. Sorry, this is one of the gambles you take on salvage.
I saw on another video that they use 134a, which is a high global warming potential gas, rather than the new 1234yf that most other car companies use. In Europe, you must use 1234yf in ICE cars, but I don't know if that requirement holds for EVs.
Sorry, I missed talking about that, yes in my video the 2 front connections on the 5-way valve (blue lines) are the radiator loop. The 5-way valve can either send the coolant to the radiator, the chiller, or both. In the beginning of this video you can see the 2 black lines on the front of the superbottle that feed the radiator: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dxPDT843nOw.html
I want to know how much wat pulls and how much ampere is used for my model compressor ( Tesla Model S (2012-2015) OEM A/C Electric Compressor HVCC Part# 1028398-00-E ) Salam ealaykum warahmat allah wabarakatuh Hi, how are you? I hope you are fine I have some inquiries for my model tesla model s ac air conditioner compressor 1028398-00-e ؟1I want to know how much amps is consumed and 2- I want to know how many wats it is consumed؟ I am a student in the college, so I asked you this question to me that the teacher wants to know that. He told me to search and search and I did not find any specifications for this model.
Sadly, they chose not to do this. I think the nominal cost would have been worth it. There isn't enough waste heat from the powertrain because it's so efficient, but a "standard" air-derived heat pump would be useful, especially in milder climates. I suspect Tesla just wants you to preheat your cabin while on "shore power", that way it doesn't cut into your range as much. Other EV makers such as Nissan and Kia chose to add them, but of course it matters more on those cars with much smaller battery packs.
The long-range 74kWh pack only has a total of 4,416 cells. They are larger in diameter by 3mm and taller by 50mm as compared to the conventional 18650 type used in the Model S/X 85/90 pack which used a total of 7,104 cells. The total glycol-water coolant used in the system is 15 liters, of which about 6.6 liters is used in the pack itself.
Emmanuel Rovirosa (no clue, not a useful answer here) I'll *bet* that you can go a stupidly long time, since there's nothing to sludge the system up, or introduce particulates
Alexander Riccio the differential itself has a small amount of friction and therefore will introduce particles eventually. Well that's my experience from off-road trucks. Most change their diff oils every 25k miles. For my me I'll probably do the first at 25k then every 50k after that. That is of course if I can find the filter and correct oil.
However unlike a gas engine which quickly contaminates and degrades the oil because of fuel and combustion going on which gets into the oil, a fixed gear does not really contaminate the oil in the same way. You may have some wear materials from break in and over time, but those are minimal and can be held by a typical magnet as in many cars, and the oil is not otherwise affected. Because it is a fixed gear and closed system, the filter and oil can be used for a long time without needing replacement or degrading the oil. It could really be for the life of the car, or maybe at least a couple/few hundred thousand miles. The differentials or rears in trucks can go 50k to 100k and those are not really closed or sealed systems and are still exposed to more contamination. Truthfully people have gone into the few hundred k without changing without issues. It is just 2 gears meshing without contamination. As long as the temps do not get extreme as the result of proper cooling.
You cannot use conventional coolant! It must be a phosphate based OAT engine coolant. It comes pre-diluted, you do not add any water! You should be able to locate any Blue colored coolant spec'd for a recent model Japanese car, that is the same stuff. Do not try to roll your own!
@@udai4k From what I can see, it's 50%, but it must be with de-ionized water! I've never seen it offered as a concentrate due to the possibility of not having the same dielectric constant.
@@clintcarter5218 Yes, the 2 on the passenger side are electronics/powertrain cooling, and the one on the driver side is return for the battery circuit.
Back when early Model S's were having problems because of lack of that, professionals in the business explained the need for that to Tesla back when Model S didn't have one, and Tesla realized they were right and added it. Also that little ground pin, too. I've continued to read reasons for that filter since then, as well. Having no engineering degree-level education nor good memory, I don't remember the details.
All transmissions cool with oil through the casing walls, this just has an all encompassing system that can put the heat back into the battery and cabin when needed. And that one oil filter is just insurance for life that no small particles will mess up the gears or bearings.
You still need oil to reduce friction with 2 gears meshing, just like in a rear pumpkin on a rwd large truck. This also helps cooling. You need the filter to collect what minimal if any contamination there might be, but probably mostly to collect and minor wear materials from break in a use. Like how you have the magnet in your drain plug.
This is a filter to make sure the drive unit lubrication system is clean, so the drive unit can go without needing lubricant changes for life. Without this filter you'd need to change the fluid, so having the filter actually reduces maintenance. This is just the synthetic lubrication that cools and lubricates the drive unit, so it never gets hot like a normal internal combustion engine oil system does. This is why the Tesla can state there is no fluid or filter changes needed for the life of the car.
