NB. In case the video (and video description) wasn't clear, the $1.3M here is for two distinct charging stations, one in Ohio and another in Pennsylvania. It covers four dispensers that can each charge two EVs at one time, for a total of eight stalls funded. This is the minimum for any site with NEVI funding, which must have the capability to deliver 4 x 150 kW (or above) at the same time.
I am glad to see chargers being installed in truck stops. They are the ideal location for chargers because they have food, traveling supplies, and restrooms available 24/7/365. But I can not see how they justify the high fees for charging when the government paid for a large part of the cost of installation. And I contend that the chargers bring them business in their convince stores and restaurants. Just as 7/11 added gas pumps to their stores to sell more cigarettes and soda 40 years ago.
Happy 2024 Steve! Pricing seems steep, both in the installation costs and kWh! But at least they are available. The Twin Cities are still fairly barren except for Tesla, despite there being an abundance of EVs.
Happy New Year, Allan! Price for energy, yes, although I'm hoping it's introductory pricing as others have suggested (not unlike early Electrify America stations in 2018/19). In terms of installation, as Walter/tNAC pointed out, ~$600K is likely only a portion of the installation costs. A single networked HPC dispenser can easily approach six figures, so two sourced from the US and all of the associated installation work/amenities will quickly rack up. What will be *really* interesting is comparing sites in Pennsylvania, where a wider range of site hosts were chosen using different hardware providers. Tesla is in the mix there as well, with bids typically 2-4x lower than others, so I'm keen to see how those sites shake out. Interesting times ahead!
Thanks, Steve! That first failure to connect makes me think back to some of those "reliability studies" because I know from my own personal experience that a number of failures to activate that I've encountered have been due to an improperly seated plug (this is outside of the Bolt EV's socket that requires support). At this point, I can tell at the point I've plugged in whether I got a good connection and am likely to have a comm failure, but I'm not sure whether the people conducting these "studies" would recognize that. It just goes back to my assumption that a decent percentage of failures are due to user error, though I suppose that could be blamed on CCS1 plug format, which can be hard to seat properly.
I think that's very likely the case. I must have plugged in several thousand times at this point, but there are still times I think "that feels off, but let's give it a whirl" and it's 50/50 as to whether the connection happens. Definitely user error in this case and the first time in a year that I haven't succeeded with Autocharge+ on the first attempt. I suppose it comes down to the fact that we're entering a period where the next wave of buyers doesn't care about the intricacies of charging and we need to design for that, whether that means automakers/dealers, charging hardware providers, CPOs with clear instructions, or even having someone on site to help with payment, as might be an option at P-FJ locations. I'm trying to reposition my thinking there, even if so much of the remedial action is relatively simple (try plugging in again, reset the app, try to reinsert the payment card etc.)
@@plugandplayEV Yes, that's been my experience as well. It's typically a 50-50 shot at activating. My frame of reference, though, is defaulting back to gas pumps. Here in California (maybe nationwide now?), we have vapor seals on all of the gas pump nozzles. If that seal isn't properly in place and compressed, the gas pump won't operate. To my memory, there are no warnings or error codes; it just won't pump. The user needs to know that and reseat the nozzle before they can fill up. So in some ways, it's interesting that people are holding EV chargers to a different, higher standard than gas pumps when it comes to usability, and likewise, the expectations for EV owners to know how public EV chargers work is higher than the expectations for gas car owners knowing how gas pumps work, which is ironic considering EV owners only have to use public chargers far less frequently than gas car owners need to use gas pumps.
That’s extremely expensive. 😭 The only incentive for people to move to EVs is to save cost on charging, so at $13 for a 25% charge, a full tank would cost $50. That’s not good at all
These are only for long-distance driving convenience and it's probably intro pricing, pending broader market competition. Ceteris paribus, at that price I'd use these at most 5-10% of my driving and I cover some distance.
Steve -- thanks for reporting on really important news like this, while just about EVERYONE else wrestles with each other over posting thousands of additional cybernonsense videos.
Notice the blue poles around those chargers. It is a great idea to stop collision damage to the chargers. However, around me, the chargers were damaged from scumbags who stole the copper out of them!
Thanks for the video Steve - Great to see canopies, window squeegies, etc. Price/kwh is high, but should be sorted out as more competition enters the charging space. This is getting a lot closer to what EV drivers will expect to see with charging.
Thanks, David. Good point that the pricing could easily be a pilot (no pun intended). Electrify America started out with charges that often reached into $20-$25 for 40-50 kWh initially (2018-2019). EA has tweaked pricing several times since then and it wouldn't surprise me to see other CPOs do the same as Tesla opens Superchargers and drivers have several options on any given stretch.
Nice to see you made it down here! I'm hoping that the price will drop if usage increases since they're probably trying to pay off fixed costs and/or demand charges
Price wont be dropping for any charge network. The minimum viable rate for an extremely efficient company to be profitable is around $1/kWh. I can count the number of extremely efficient charging network companies with the hairs on The Rocks cranium.
Just a flying visit but I'm glad to see the Midwest pushing ahead as others twiddle their thumbs. Should make Ohio and Pennsylvania rather pleasurable places to traverse for EV drivers over the next year or two, even if it drains their wallets for that convenience.
I too am concerned the existing price structure is an attempt to dissuade non GM customers. I am not privy to their balance sheets, but it does not appear in line with what markup they put on gas for ICE.
Autocharge+ has become quite a valued feature, especially as the Electrify America activation process seems to be heading in the other direction. Much easier to direct new users to just plug in and let the car/station do the work.
@@plugandplayEV time for the taste test! I have driven that stretch of road. There is pretty much nothing other than pilot stations. It's their best chance ;-)
1:20 I use a car scanner on a trip to get a sense of when the pack is warmed up. Love the '24 IONIQ 6 for its OTA updates for the nav and other systems.
I've apparently misplaced my OBD reader, otherwise I'd be right there with you monitoring the pack temp. As a rule of thumb, though, preconditioning running for 20-25 minutes on approach to the DCFC is sufficient to get the pack to that sweet spot of 68F.
A SHELL OIL exec told me once that a brand new gas station with store & car wash with 8 fueling positions from a lot of dirt costs them about $1.25M in California. !
Hey Steve Great video...glad to see these stations rolling out. I presume that you are using Plug N Charge from EV GO? The price is a premium for sure but I factor in the reality that my at home charging is really inexpensive so in the overall scheme of things my annual cost of operation for the car is really low so the extra cost of DCFC is really not a big deal. We look at the fact that we have always travelled and did road trips so even with those costs factored in the overall cost is still far less than an ICE vehicle. Really appreciate your videos and the work you do regarding EV adoption. Happy New Year buddy! Mike and Ally 🇨🇦
Thanks, Mike, and Happy New Year! Yes, always Autocharge+ (EVgo lingo for Plug&Charge) these days. If it's convenient, I'll pay this and let the free EA plan and cheaper L2 destination charging soak up the expense. We're easily around 4-5 cents per mile at worst on our 50K Ioniq 5 miles, so it's not going to break the bank to stump up for a canopy charge every few thousand miles 🙂
I’ve been needing to go up and down I-75 between Tampa and central Ohio several times over the past 2-1/2 months. There are four of the Pilot/Flying J stations along my route plus a couple other EVGo chargers. The crazy price is burning through my $500 EVGo credit in a hurry, but they sure are a lot nicer than the EA ones that mostly don’t work. I do wish they’d get the price down to something around or under 40 cents. If not, I’ll be avoiding them rather than preferring them when the credit is used up.
@@jerrymildredpetersen3177 It's a project that's moving pretty fast and GM will want to stoke sales for newer Ultium models as the Bolt inventory dwindles through Q1. I wouldn't be surprised to see discounts announced by spring.
Informative Video, thanks Steve 👍 I feel Pilot/Flying J should have distinguish themselves by having pull through stations - on all sites. We have lots of pull in chargers already (and with Tesla stations opening up we will have more) and we need to start catering to all those that want to pull a trailer. I looked at my local Pilot/Flying J locations that are expected to get chargers in the future. They are not particular attractive to a family road trip (lots of diesel trucks and not much else). Canopies are fantastic though (but like the pull through parking it is only available on a few selected sites).
Thanks, Ernst. I suppose it's a Catch 22 in the site selection process... cover the Interstate every 50 miles but it has to be right by the exit... that doesn't often leave many more options than gas stations and fast food restaurants. Toss in 24/7 amenities and you only really have the truck stops remaining in most locations. On balance, I'd accept a couple of minutes with the noise and fumes for 15 minutes in a reliably accessible and clean facility while the vehicle charges.
I saw. Your post on PlugShare Steve . Millersport oh is close to my home town of Newark ohio which was settled by Newark New Jersey people. It. Would have been nice to see you in person. But I am glad you got to all the locations.
@@markfitzpatrick6692 Happy New Year! I wasn't certain I'd make it down this time but I managed to squeeze in an early morning visit. Literally drove, charged, took some photos/video and buggered off! It's on my resolution list to share location a bit more in 2024 and connect with anyone who wants to grab a coffee. Hope to catch you in 2024 :-)
@@repat1000 I meant to add my visit to the 8-stall EA station that's only 20 miles from the London Pilot but opted to keep it shorter. Worked well, twice as many handles, and sort-of pull through spaces that might make it a better option for trailers (although it would block a charging stall).
That is my location in Hilliard ea. they have Tesla superchargers at Meijer down Rome Hilliard rd that can change the Mach e and lightning with adapter. And ev go has a location on same rd in strip shopping center delta units. Kyle Connor used. Them on his lucid cannonball from ny to la
For the Pittston, PA location, they probably only put in 4 because of what is already in place locally. There are 8 Tesla Supercharger stalls in the shopping area near the AAA baseball stadium and 4 CCS plugs in Scranton at the Sheetz (with more planned nearby on I-84 and in Scranton closer to I-81 when the WaWa gets built in the next year). More than 4 stalls at the Pilot would be overkill.
Thanks for the context. I've used the Scranton EA site a few times and find it pretty inconvenient. Having to drive through a downtown area to get to a travel charger is a significant downside. It's also busy, at least based on the weekend travel I've done through the area. That said, the Pittston Pilot doesn't address all those issues either. It was a busy stretch of road when we visited last week, which I assume would be several times busier outside of the holiday week lull. No canopy makes and a small fast food/gas station option makes it essentially the same offering as the EA at Sheetz. Tesla has only a V2 Supercharger serving this exact area, although the V3 in Walkes Barre and Clark's Summit coming soon (also NEVI-funded, so potentially an interesting comparison point) offer some local alternatives. Rivian is also going in with its soon-to-be-public DCFC option right next to that V2 Supercharger. Thanks again for the thoughts. It made me realize that this segment of PA could be a really informative spot to watch with all the main players and funding flowing into one area.
Walter at The Network Architect Channel has been following a lot of GM Energy/Ultium installations at Pilot / Flying J locations. They all seem to have just 4 stalls for now (but mostly pull through for trailers). I'm pretty sure, within 3 or 4 years, they will all be in need of expansion. Including this one. By 2030, every EV driver will be demanding much larger fast charging sites, as the number of EVs on the road will be about 10x today's number.
Just to clarify, the $1.3 million (rounded up) figure is across the two sites I used, which would be eight charge stalls. So approximately $650K for each station or $163K per connector. Not making a comment on the value or pricing as I'm more interested in hearing from others, but I didn't want the costs to be misconstrued here. Thanks for the thoughts.
@@plugandplayEVI don’t know if you can find this information. But could you do a comparison to how much it costs for Tesla chargers to be constructed, and how much per kilowatt hour? That would give a good example if the tax payer is getting their money’s worth. Thank you.
@@plugandplayEV Having a Tesla, I can tell you that your data is wrong. No one charges to 85-90% his Tesla (because this is what you imply by charging 70%). No one ends right at 10% or less every time during their trip. Usually the charge is 50% SOC or less which represents about 15-20 minutes of charging and that’s enough to get to the next Supercharger. In 6 months of ownership I supercharged my Tesla 20 times, of which once I added 82% once because I was at a restaurant having lunch and once 67% because then I would spend 4 days at a place that had no charging capabilities, so I needed to have enough juice to come back to charge. The rest of the charging sessions were between adding 9% SOC to 51% SOC.
I would expect more stations especially being so close to a major highway. Even NY did better on the Thruway than this surprisingly. As for price, the more we get up maybe we'll start to see competition but expected for now.
In my more generous moments, I think that they're erring on the side of spreading funds out to cover the required corridors first, with the potential to expand as more funds become available and/or EV adoption accelerates to pick up the tab. Applegreen Electric has at least offered four dedicated 350kW units, so power sharing isn't a driver consideration, but they missed an opportunity to really knock it out of the park for NY in my opinion. The sites were being fully renovated but no shelter, pull throughs, or dedicated walkways were added into the plan. The layout replicates a lot of problems that EA locations have exhibited, including dated hardware. By default, the locations are great and I applaud the power levels (while Mass is still installing 1 x 50kW on the Masspike... again!), but I do think there are aspects of the P-FJ/EVgo installs that will be more compelling.
One thing bout the money. Although the awards are known, the build costs are not. By my napkin math, I think if u add PFJ pm staff & OWL fees, it is a little south of mil per canopy site & more like a smigin under $800k w/o. The NEVI is just a portion of build costs with some OpEx thrown in. In the case of GM & PFJ, they r adding coins of their own to go big.
For sure, though I do think the public nature of the awards will saddle every NEVI site with the burden of proving its worth. Fair or not, we know how much the companies involved got from the feds to get these stations online and there will be many more this year to compare how effective each provider (and state agency) was in deploying these funds.
Great video ! It’s great to see that DCFC stations using the federal money come out in the wild. As for the people who complain about "taxpayer money" spent, I would like to underline that those money come mostly from the blue states, not the red states. The same "taxpayer money" repair the bridges and roads in the red states, despite the fact that their red representatives voted against the Infrastructure law. $ 1,3M is not even enough for repairing 1/3 of a mile of an interstate road.
If they’re looking to differentiate themselves, the canopies are a big plus. As a Tesla driver I could see myself paying the premium to charge under a canopy during wet weather. It’s something most Superchargers in my area don’t have. I hope the canopies are the rule rather than the exception for Pilot Flying-J. It’s a little upsetting to see from the Network Architect’s channel that most of the Mercedes charging sites won’t get canopies (at least at Buc-ee’s).
I just joined something called Bluedot that advertises a flat $0.30/kWh for fast charging on EVgo, Chargepoint, Blink, and EA. $0.56 is gasoline-level pricing, but 30 cents is much more reasonable. Plus, I'm taking a Bolt road trip in April, so it will come in real handy then.
Thanks for this, I'd heard about the app but assumed it was another here today, gone tomorrow EV startup. They seem to have some backing so I took another look and signed up. Will give it a whirl with to stabilize EVgo's ever -fluctuating pricing on our next trip.
It’s probably better for the time being that locations like this don’t have the NACS because these other wonderful cars may find themselves in a position of having to wait in line for Teslas that are charging up, although if memory serves the pricing at the chargers in these videos Are slightly higher than what Tesla is charging. Not far from the Pittston location in Pennsylvania our ChargePoint chargers next to Tesla superchargers and I frequently see Teslas charging at a slower pace on the non-Tesla chargers I assume because the rates are less expensive than Tesla. This is an example of charging slower being better and paying less is better and avoiding idle charges from Tesla. Also, the proprietor of the local store “Target” in this case benefits because the longer you are there the more money you’re spending. Thanks for the excellent video 🙏⚡️👍
Right, Superchargers open to non-Tesla models do typically charge ~ $0.50/kWh but that can be lowered by the membership plan at $12.99/month. Not cheap but would pay itself back over the course of a full road trip on Superchargers or frequent local use. Pittston is quite close to cheaper CCS stations but can't deny the convenience of proximity to the Interstate. Thanks for the local perspective.
I think canopies are a pretty big necessity. Just for the convenience and the protection they provide from the elements. Also, they would allow lighting to be installed, which would help from a perspective of feeling safer in the late evening/night time, especially for women travelling alone. Just one man's opinion.
It's definitely becoming something to navigate, and made all the more stark by the fact that some models will use these sites for free (as I do with the Electrify America sites going up in price, to be fair). I do expect prices to settle eventually and home charging stands to be improved by the flexibility of TOU rates, once utilities here pull their fingers out, but for now that means balancing cost and convenience when deciding where to stop.
We will see what happens when Tesla supercharger sites start opening up. Already, in my area, the magic dock rates for non-Tesla vehicles are far less than this. Hopefully, Tesla will create some competition and drive prices down. That said, in rural areas where there is only one charger around, I would much rather pay ripoff prices and have the station remain running and profitable than have the station just disappear entirely because it doesn't get enough usage to generate enough profits to cover the operating overhead.
For sure, thanks for the suggestion. I'll most likely be back in Ohio at some point in the spring or summer, so I'll be sure to plan in a return visit to assess upkeep and performance.
In terms of being worth the money, I have mixed feelings. I know people keep referencing Tesla's V3 Supercharger bids being about 1/5th the cost per dispenser as these sites, but I don't think that's a valid comparison. Each one of these dispensers is worth four V3 dispensers in terms of power output (throughput of site), and each Delta cabinet is roughly the equivalent of a V3 cabinet. In addition, we know that Tesla is subsidizing to some level in order to gain access to sites, so their bids are likely at or below cost. As a result, my starting point is breaking costs down by site power/throughput, and then accounting for the additional amenities. So for sites like these (say $650,000 on average), they are costing just under $1,000 per kW of installed throughput, but in the case of the first site, it has a still somewhat unique to charging site canopy. I think that if people actually itemized the cost of an installation like this, they'd be surprised at just how quickly the numbers approach $600,000. Permitting, site design and engineering, etc. can easily exceed $100,000 on their own. When I looked at estimates for resurfacing a parking lot alone, that was close to $100,000. Likewise, an engineered canopy can cost another $35,000 to $80,000. So we're halfway to the total cost, and we haven't even estimated the cost to install the chargers themselves.
I recently visited a Pilot charger for the first time, and was less than impressed. The cables were heavy and hard to maneuver. Shared dispensers means that only 2 out of the 4 parking spaces have the charging port on the right side, and if they're taken, you're forced to stretch the cable to just barely reach the charge port. The price is also quite expensive compared to other DC fast chargers in the area. And, the activation itself was very finicky. It took several tries and several minutes to get the charger to work. Then, when I returned to the same charger a few hours later to charge up again for the return trip, the brand new Pilot charge failed me altogether, and I couldn't move to another stall because the other stalls were all occupied. To get home, I decided I had had enough of the Pilot chargers and would try my luck with the older 50 kW Shell Recharge a couple miles down the street and, if that failed, I'd hit the Electrify America a couple miles further down again. To my shock, not only was the Shell Recharge available (it has only one stall and is nearly always full), but everything worked perfectly. The cable felt so light and easy to plug in. After tapping my RFID card, the charge started on the first try, within seconds. The speed may be slower, but the charging experience felt so much better. And, on top of that, the price was cheaper than the Pilot, and I was in a walkable town center with better food options. So, newer and higher powered is not always necessarily better. Now, if only the Shell Recharge could somehow expand their site to have more than one stall...
Unsure about that choice of hardware. 200A on right side is clearly not compliant -- will underperform 150 kW target for 400V cars by far! - and reading that screen is that 500A cable already derating dynamically due to temperature...? Good gosh this is a miss.
It's a concern, but would require the right mix (or wrong, I suppose) of EVs to expose the limitation. When we tried similar units in the IONIQ5 and XC40 Recharge, for example, the Volvo was still maxed out and the IONIQ 5 wasn't below 150kW for long. For individual charge sessions, these dispensers are solid in delivering whatever the vehicle requests. We'll have to see if the 200A second session limitation is much of a real-world frustration as more EVs test the stations.
kempower satellites would be a lot more flexible in placement and could probably put more in. prices were highway robbery. delta generally arent most robust units either.
I would expect more from the operator. Both sites have the chargers on an otherwise fairly useless piece of asphalt to the station(or truckstop). These need to be pull through for trailering. More & more EV's are tailoring & need charging more frequently than those not pulling a trailer. Operators make all truck 7 auto pumps pull through even when over 90% of cars are not towing. Can you imagine ICE cars being required to back in & on the proper side for refueling? I am very disappointed in the requirement from the government to fund these sites. Four stalls---only if your car is able to use a cable from either side. So far non are. That means only two sites at this location for charge ports on one side & if you have to maneuver then being in the drive through lane makes tha a real problem. PISS POOR design for locating the chargers. EV's are being treated as the bastard step child of the auto world by nearly all of the charger location builders. Yea, design takes some effort. So far no one is putting the effort into sites. NONE.
It's more about throughput. How many EGMP cars or trucks with 100+ kWh packs will a public V3 stall service in an hour? That's where we'll really see if Tesla has the chops to be more than a closed ecosystem for its own models. Beyond that, 24/7 amenities and sheltered charging add some value too.
1:51 - And that's why I bought a Tesla Model Y Long Range. I don't think it's necessarily the best EV. But last week when I was in another state and needed a quick charge, I found a supercharger with 10 stalls, backed in, started charging and never even had to take out a credit card. How damn difficult is it for the rest of these guys to get charging working???
To be fair, this is the one time I've had a misconnect with Autocharge+ in over a year. And I think it was my error. But I certainly wouldn't dispute that it's far simpler to hook up a Tesla with Superchargers. Activation time is much quicker too.
Seems unfair that the feds aren’t giving my local Gas And Sip the free charger. Maybe they should give every gas station in the country a FREE charger.
Gas & Sip can apply for funding, just the same as any site host that meets the criteria of being within a mile of an Interstate exit. Or if they don't, subsequent rounds will open up to non-Interstate adjacent sites. There's $5 billion in the budget, so plenty of charging stations to go yet :-)
Port placement and photo opp, as much as anything else, but I do appreciate the sentiment. It was early morning for 15 minutes and I was with the car the whole time if I needed to move, but this is a reminder to emphasize and assess accessibility more in this kind of video, thank you.
The lack of foresight in having a stall EV charger at a truck stop. There should be plenty of room at a truck stop to have pull through chargers. How are people pulling trailers supposed to charge their vehicles?
Commercial vs. residential, of course, but yes the average price of home electricity in Ohio is $0.14/kWh, so $3.22 for the same energy is quite the gap.
@@plugandplayEV see i have never seen a commercial residential bill. so i would have no idea. it just seems like a tad bit of greed thrown into it. i mean they are charging about 45 cent a KW. I can see double but triple. #wowwow lol
@@plugandplayEV I know if I ever get an electric car. I need them to work out the infrastructure a tad bit more and the supply chain issues i.e. parts, out of dealership service and the right to fix.....IMO the government dropped the ball on this and elon need to take a steve jobs type of break from tesla. they need some car guys. he has had enough time to build quality vehicles by now but i digress.
Tesla was awarded funds in PA, so this really comes down to the state's individual choices for its infrastructure. For whatever reason, Ohio gave most of its round 1 funds to Pilot-Flying J, so this is what we'll see a lot in Ohio. Comparing to neighboring PA will be informative. Thanks for the perspective on how people outside the EV bubble see the bigger picture.
Too expensive. If your EV averages 3.6 miles per kWh, it costs about $0.16 per mile. ($0.58/kWh) If you drive a Toyota Prius Hybrid, even with gasoline at $4.00 a gallon, you're looking at closer to $0.08 cents per mile, roughly 1/2 the cost. To be competitive with a good hybrid, electricity needs to be closer to $0.28 per kWh. (Assuming, the hybrid gets 48 MPG, and the electric gets 3.6 miles per kWh) If you can charge at home for less then $0.15 per kWh, the EV costs half what the Hybrid does. Overall, if you do most of your charging at home, the EV is by far, the better choice. If you do a lot of travelling, or, you cannot charge at home, you might consider a good Hybrid.
Good points, thanks. Everyone's use case is a little bit different and there's a big difference between travel charging and what people would use for their daily routine. Pricing will vary accordingly and how much you can (or must) access either extreme will determine whether an EV saves money or costs significantly more than an efficient hybrid option.
People nowadays will just not want to spend 15 minutes or more charging car batteries to 100%. But as this technology improves, it might not take any more time than with gasoline.
I think it's worth considering the difference in charging as a passive process, while fueling is an active one. So yes, 15-20 minutes to charge is longer than 5-10 minutes to fuel, but you can take care of other business (restroom, coffee/snacks, groceries, sit down meal etc.) while charging happens. Fueling is something you do after those activities are done, so it represents additional time at the stop. Charging still takes longer, but it's not the voided of time that those who haven't done it assume.
Definitely waiting on massive efficiency gains from the pure BEV Industry which via Aptera is a very real prospect actually. Not offering up installed solar for the entire service station is a truly awesome disservice to the taxpayer. Might have even helped with that cup of coffee but probably not. Either way "grid reliability" should always be the goal as Tesla already does and so too will be true of Rivian. Ford and GM are rolling out product for their dealerships ... at some point even they might get rooftop solar religion. In the meantime actual fuel prices continue to plunge upon the USA which given fuel economy still rising to include far better hybrid drive systems now and i think many are asking serious questions of pure BEV in the USA given upfront expense and replacement battery costs. Still this is how USA transportation works now by and large excepting Class 8 Trucking. Buc'ees making a huge move into fuel retail to include charging stations as a consequence.
I love having chargers in truck stops so that I can stop every two and a half hours to charge and have a place to relax and spend money on food and refreshments for 45 minutes while my vehicle charges, assuming the charger is working, and then continue my journey and arrive 4 hours late than I would have, after another stop or two. Probably better to get a car made for adults.
The truth will become apparent once a large section of the public is committed to EV by purchasing electric vehicles and home charging systems. The price of electricity will go right through the roof, and they will also start applying road use taxes through these public charging stations . If the charging port allows two-way communications, it will also charge road use tax in your home.
only thing I hate is Pilot-FJ seems to have kept its super high price ..... since the tax payers funded all of the installation costs (especially on that non-canopy site)... and all that is left is maintenance and power.... really does feel a bit like a rip-off to still have the $0.20+ delta (or in the case of one PFJ where I stopped that was 500 ft from a EA station..... that was per minute.. making like a $30 delta in fill up)...... i dunno.... but at least it will get more chargers out there.... but still.. with gasoline at $3.11/gal ... the max the market should be is $0.37/kwh if we want price parity with gasoline.... Ohio is $2.80 today.... which is $0.33/kwh
No, as the video explains each site cost between $600-650K for two dispensers with four connectors. So the combined $1.3M funded hardware that can charge eight EVs at any one moment.
The reason gas stations are required to have good fire suppression systems is because internal combustion vehicles catch fire quite frequently. According to IEEE Spectrum, the number is 1,530 fires per 100,000 ICE vehicles sold. For EVs, this number is 25 per 100,000 vehicles sold. Other data shows that over 4,000 gas stations catch fire per year in the US. And half of those are caused by ICE vehicles catching fire. Meanwhile, that data on EV fires is old. Since then, the new LFP type batteries have become popular, and they reportedly don't ignite. And manufacturing improvements in non-LFP batteries have brought the rate of fires much lower than 25 per 100,000.
GM Charging.... One HIGH Price. At $0.59/kw, that works out to $19.88 for one "gallon" of electricity. 33.7 Kw = 1 gallon of gas/energy. $0.59 x 33.7kw = $19.88 !!!!
Wait until a majority portion of the US cars on the road are EVs. The state and federal levels will impose crazy additional taxes for charging the EV vehicles and even more taxes for the size of batteries in the car. That $.58 per kilowatt will double or even quadruple in no time at all. I own an Ioniq5, Model Y and Ford Superduty Diesel and a decade from now, I will look back on these days as the goid old days when electric was cheap😢.
Expensive - and unjustified since taxpayers subsidized the installation. Also partially obsolete from day 1, as almost every EV will come with NACS inlets within another year. Authorization seems a bit slow, but at least they stations work. Bottom line: a mediocre result. Not the best deal - by far - that we could have gotten. I bet Tesla could have installed Superchargers with magic docks for less money. At this point, eager as I am to see more EV charging sites, I think the rollout should be put on hold for 6-12 months, and then only resume when new installations can include some NACS cords (50:50?) The rules should also cap (for a year or two?) the price that subsidized stations can charge.
Tesla should get the majority of NEVI funds so they can install as many V4s 800v chargers opened to all as they can. And they do 16 stalls build outs (and very quickly), none of this 4 chargers crap. Otherwise, all the red states will do absolutely nothing with it.
Tesla will get funds to build sites in Pennsylvania, so we'll have a good chance to compare. Remember that solicitations were underway before Superchargers were accessible in any meaningful way, so there will be a lag between what's opening now and the majority of NEVI-funded sites, many of which are likely to incorporate to the J3400 standard. Also worth noting, Tesla itself has precisely zero 800V Superchargers open at the time of writing, despite the fact that Cybertrucks are already hitting the road.
@@plugandplayEV They don't even have any V4 chargers installed yet. All they have is a handful of locations with V4 stall/dispensers installed. But the chargers are still V3s. I suspect it IS due to the Cybertruck and it's 4680 batteries and their dry coating. Remember that the the Model Y using 4680's from Giga-Texas had a horrible charging curve and they no longer make it with the 4680's. I think that they are very concerned with the dry coating not being able to hold up to super fast charging. In fact, I hear rumors that the Cybertruck is not even supporting the NACs standard (which is based on the CCS standard but with Tesla's connector) yet. It's using the old Tesla proprietary standard software/firmware wise. So owners can't even try to charge it on a CCS 350kw charger using an adapter. Which tells me my suspicions are correct. Hopefully, as they get a little more data on Cybertruck charging in the wild (which currently appears to have not too great of a curve, meaning it's being limited) they can slowly start ramping up the curve if there are no significant issues. And then finally start to allow 350kw charging, leading them to install the 800v chargers to match the dispensers.
That's unbelievable..you are paying 17 cents per mile for electricity. I'm paying 14 cents per mile for gas driving my 2002 Chevy full size conversion van.
@@plugandplayEV you know the price won't decline. Just as soon as the owners of the chargers see the others charging that much, they'll increase their prices. TVA announced a price hike for this year. I think it just went into effect the 1st.
@@Bryan-Hensley Absent price fixing/oligopoly, competittion breeds price adjustments. Columbus, OH is less than 20 miles from this station and offers 50+ alternative DC charging stations, ranging from $0 to a little more than the this Pilot pricing. Travelers can already select their preference based on location, cost, and relative convenience.
They will work great until the money runs out and will become just like all the alternative cng stations that were built, useless. It's easy to spend someone else's money but when it's time to become self sufficient maintenance usually ends and it just becomes a tax loss write off or sold off to big oil, chevron, shell and bp are buying cng and ev stations as fast as they can get them.
Five years maintenance minimum to comply with funding requirements, which takes us through 2029 for the first wave, 2030 for most. By that point, EV penetration will be so far along that any entity failing to maintain its charge stations will quickly become irrelevant. Drivers will simply avoid that brand and head for the one that delivers. Fait accompli, at this point.
And this is why I drive Tesla, Tesla is already self funded and not locked down by government and they just work. I did a lot of research before buying the Tesla a few months ago, sure I had lots of options and really would have liked the Mach E but charging infrastructure is what made up my mind. Having owned a chevy volt for twelve years I wanted to go all electric this time. I already have a CNG pick up and the local station is now owned by chevron and the low cost cng is now more costly than petrol. I've seen this before and will happen with the govt. funded stations again. It always does. Only works when someone else it paying for it. @@plugandplayEV
@@plugandplayEVWith a government program. 5 year maintenance may mean that it may not work, but it is still standing there. The brand may not care if it works ,as long as they received the sweet install money.
Pilot-Flying J is building out a nationwide charging network that will cost substantially more than the amounts they receive from this funding. If you think that they're willing to sacrifice a generation of customers for a few million dollars, I'd question that rationale.
@arihanagibbons4485 The Mach-E will have access to the same Tesla network in a matter of months. There are plenty of reasons to buy a Tesla ahead of other models, but private charging is no longer one of them.
How about the government ponying up the dough and then letting states + local private enterprise run with it? Still not a good arrangement? Genuinely inquiring, not being flippant.
What a rip off. Tesla could have added 30 charging stations for that kind of money, and charged users less for charging. Is that two chargers or four? Many of those with two cables are just there for redundancy and can’t charge 2 cars at the same time.
Four active stalls, yes. These dispensers provide simultaneous charging (in theory 150kW minimum continuous to all four for compliance, if the vehicles can accept it). The power level is significantly higher than Tesla Superchargers and the amenities are more consistent, though I agree Tesla would have squeezed in more stalls for the money. Ohio didn't grant any NEVI awards to Tesla but Pennsylvania gave them 12 contracts, so there will be more comparative "bang for your buck" stations when PA has a mix of both.
I'm not especially happy with $20+ billion in US subsidies every year to keep fossil fuels cheap and plentiful myself. But hey, we all get to choose our grumbles. Have a lovely day and thanks for the comment to bring this to a wider audience 👍
If anything, they're actually avoiding CHAdeMO. Most of the EVolve NY locations have at least two CHAdeMO connectors but the one that received NEVI funds is the first to be CCS1-only.
Right now it is cheaper to drive an ICE 4x4 full size pickup than to charge at one of these sites. WE paid for these sites. WHY are they so expensive? Are they going to cry and say there is no EV demand now if people refuse to use them due to the stupid high costs? Money has been thrown at these sites by GM, and the public and we get 4 stalls. I would love to see the cost comparisons for other types of installs to compare the install costs. The public is gettering screwed. These are bare bones minimalist installs of just barely what we need and not enough stalls. Well at those prices only the math challenged will be wanting to use them. So maybe 4 stalls is more than enough.
If that's really the case, how do you explain the 23 other stations of the same kind that Pilot-Flying J built with no government money in 2023? Or the 200 more in their plan for this year?
@@plugandplayEV It is true there is a lot of funny money floating around out there right now. But it is a valid point not all are part of the NEVI spending. Costs to the consumer are just too high. What they are installing is the minimum most ICE drivers would expect at a fueling stop. If they keep pushing public charging costs up consumers are going to balk at EV's for sure.
Please stop saying government funded, the correct is taxpayer funded. The government does not have one nickel, every penny comes out of your wallet. So we had 1.3 million for this one station and they had to stop funding free meals for some of our school children. I don't object to this at all, part of future, I just hope they are charging enough to repay the full cost of building this. Some day this will be very important for EV owners.
Another govt money throw away...no pull thru...money better spent educating the public about how to use, drive, and charge EVs. Example; You don't have to stay with the car while charging. Car should automatically be identified and card charged; hate to say it, like Tesla. As long as govt is involved it will always be a dollar short and a day late.
Driver doesn't have to stay with the car charging, they can use Autocharge+ to plug in and walk away to use the facilities. In terms of canopies and pull through, the vast majority of Tesla Superchargers don't have those either. The government is only really involved in dangling the financial carrot at these NEVI sites, while the planning and construction is down to the site host. You can see another 23 sites much like this that were installed by Pilot-Flying J across the country without any federal funding, so this assertion doesn't really hold water.
Charging an EV while traveling is neither as quick nor as easy as filling an ICE car with gas, and it's not as cheap as one might expect. An EV makes more sense if you can do almost all your charging at home overnight.
Yes, assuming that cost is the primary motivator. What people spend on driving an EV varies so much across different use cases and models that it's tough to apply a one-size-fits-all cost analysis to electric vehicles as a whole.
At least with my experience, most trips that do require charging, the trip length is only a little bit more than the range of the car, so I don't have to charge on the road very much. This keeps the total trip cost pretty cheap, since most of the energy is still coming from the home charger. For bigger trips, public charging costs are more of an issue, but in general, the longer a trip, the less often it gets taken in the first place.
It's less egregious than it might seem, at least traveling here in the Northeast. EA has pushed up non-member pricing to $0.56/kWh or $0.64/kWh in most locations, while many interstate travel plazas cost between $0.58-$0.62/kWh. I also recall EA's pilot pricing costing me $20-$30 for a basic 40-50kWh charge in the Bolt EV five years ago, so there's room for member rates or regional pricing to be integrated as they listen to customers. "Low" is definitely the wrong adjective, though!
62 stations in the Toledo Metro area and multiple under construction. Pilot at 5820 Hagman Road will have one just like this before the year is out. Enjoy!
It may well be, especially with some hybrids on higher MPG at current prices. The difference is that gas prices are much the same within a defined area, whereas electricity ranges from complimentary to $0.64 per kWh. Home or workplace charging is typically where the savings are, then it's down to the driver to decide between cost or convenience on trips away from home.
The Tesla Supercharger network is much cheaper. Where I travel it is usually 35c/kwh for a Tesla Supercharger vs when I take the same trip in a CCS car it’s 50c/kwh or more if there are connection fees. Additionally the SC network is more plentiful so I can arrive a home with close to 0 charge and charge at home for 12c/kwh.
@@dvwatts The value here is that the customer can decide. If the price or stall count wins out for their journey, they may choose the Supercharger. If they're traveling on a rainy evening late into the night and the alternative is a Walmart EA station or Supercharger is behind a hotel with questionable amenities, they can choose the convenience of a 24/7 facility with a canopy an guaranteed restroom access.
This is why Tesla owns the EV space. Charging any other EV just licks cockroach poo .59c/kwh makes the car as expensive as a gas car to drive, maybe more. Why go through the trouble?
Superchargers will be open to everyone this year so drivers can choose the model they prefer and charge where they want. Choice and competition is a good thing and I thank Tesla for driving the market forward.
I'd like to know how many miles you got for $13.00? In Ohio at $3.00 a gallon and a car that gets 35 mpg you can get 140 miles and about 3 minutes time to pump it !! Thanks but no thanks !!
Would you also like to know about the 850 miles I did to Columbus for less than $10 thanks to three years of complimentary charging? Seems like that might offset this $13, somewhat. Pumping gas at whatever price they force me to pay that day, to fuel a vehicle that can't put down power immediately? Thanks but no thanks!
Complimentary 🤣= free right !! NOTHING IS FREE !! Someway we ,the tax payer ,paid for this AND the rebate for buying an EV !! As soon as you had to actually pay to charge that thing all you did was complain about the cost !!🤣🤣🤣Stop every two hundred miles for an hour to go another two hundred miles ,,,,NO THANKS I'll keep my gas guzzling, polluting poor little corvette that puts down enough power when I want it !! And another question ,what happens to those batteries when you have to replace them ? Just throw them in a dump ?? What about if they catch on fire ? Can the local FD use water to put the flames out ?? And where do they get the crap to make those batteries ?? China ??@@plugandplayEV You drive what YOU want but you are not saving the world by driving an EV !! Enjoy driving your appliance!
Tens of thousands of miles for free, yes. Courtesy of the Germans/South Koreans, as it happens, but ignorance runs rampant in that's comment so why stop there? Salty, perhaps, as I'm sure the gas pump has never read $0 when you fill up every week (which you have to waste time on, while I can wake up to a full charge). The further keyboard diarrhea of anti-EV bollocks says more about your thought process than any fact-based rebuttal to the grab bag of wingnut talking points. Drive what you want but know that it's a relic that won't be around much longer. 👋
Most charging happens at home, overnight. I don't need to think about it, just wake up to a full charge. Wasting time on a weekly trip to the gas station around home isn't on my to-do list.
"Calculating the cost of U.S. subsidies for the fossil fuel industry is complex because the incentives stretch across the U.S. tax code, but estimates range from $10 to $50 billion per year. The oil industry counters that the support is needed to ensure ongoing investment and reliable supply." (Reuters, March 2023)
I will never own one of these EVs. I just purchased a new ICE SUV that should last eight years and then I will get another. After that one is ready to retire I will retire my keys. Plus America will just get fatter eating junk and drinking sugar water while charging.
Agreed. This stuff should be left to the private sector to figure out. This is a great example of how inefficiently the government spends money. Thats a lot of money for only 4 stalls. The tax payers pay to install the things. Then they give you the middle finger and slap some of the highest charge costs on them so they pay more than gas.
This is a public-private funding mix. The NEVI award most likely is not the full cost of the site(s), so Pilot-Flying J is putting in a portion as well... and PFJ also sets the prices here, which is nothing to do with the government piece.
If EVs are so great then why in the world does the government have to use my tax dollars to pay for chargers and bribe individuals with tax incentives to purchase the vehicles?
Same reason they use my tax money to spend $20+ billion a year shoring up the supply of fossil fuels, probably. To foster innovation and incentivize multi-national corporations to invest in sourcing from places that don't want to destroy us. Hang on, that only applies to one of our scenarios...
