Testing E3D's new Revo High Flow nozzle to its limits! 

Thanks for all the input on the Highflow's wavyness! Couple points to note: - 100mm at 10mm/s makes for only a 10-second extrude move - way too quick for PID to affect anything, especially not at the frequency it's showing up. - The force ripples align well with the start of the extrude move, making it unlikely (but not impossible) that off-center extruder gears would be the culprit. It's pretty unlikely that the starting gear positions would be so similar between runs - Issue 602 is a potential culprit for the E3D Hemera, too, but the wavyness that creates is of much higher frequency, with about one wave per extruder gear tooth (0.5mm). I'm seeing one wave every 20mm or so - The load cell did see significant creep over time with everything slowly heating up (which is why in the automated test runs, it calibrates zero before every extrude move), but again, this is happening over a much longer time scale I think overall @MirageC's explanation seems the most plausible, with a heating / cooling cycle creating a resonant effect between filament flow and the (limited) elasticity in the coupling between the hotend and the extruder.

Oscillations from the PID heating control loop perhaps. Like you say, so many paramters could have been measured but where do you stop, But would be curious to log the heater drive and see if it correlates to the oscillations you see.

I have a volcano style bondtech CHT .6mm Nozzle. If i push it really hard, especially with high speed PLAs it does make the same sounds extremely wet filament makes. Sounding almost like a drop of water in an oiled pan. It only does that at the beginning of a high flow extrusion move and only at the beginning of the print. I always thought it was some PID thing, where the sudden in rush of Filament absorbs a lot of energy, the heater kicks in and overshoots a little and that causes the filament to crackle. Never thought about till you mentioned high flow noises :)

Thanks for taking the time to review Revo High Flow Tom. Apologies for the 404's, looks like you screen-grabbed whilst we were in the process of undergoing some web maintenance, these should now all be fixed. Team E3D

❤ Awesome job Thomas! I love that machined automated rig! That being said, this is the kick i needed to speed up the return of my hotend olympics series! As for your observations with regards to the initial pressure creep before extrusion run, it is caused by a solidification of the filament at the junction of the heatsink and heat zone. And the pressure oscillation when reaching medium pressure levels during the run is due to the cold filament core obstructing the path, then melting and obstructing again and repeat. Enough talk... I am getting back to work! 😅

You should try see if the wavey-ness correlates with the circumference of one of the drive gears; Could indicate an extruder issue. Also, I'd guess this is more prone to clogs.

Really interested to see whether this load cell tech gets better integrated into printers, (I know the MK4 has it, and its really the only "complete" integration I know of at this point, in a consumer machine). In addition to bed probing, I can see automated flow rate calibration, as well as automated pressure advance calibration coming, and that is really interesting, because flow rate has been traditionally something that was mostly guessed at by hobbyists. I know right now I mostly just pick a number in prusaslicer for the filament profile that seems okay, and I know that other people dont even do that. It would be especially interesting to see things like layer adhesion numbers graphed by flow rate for a certain setup. It would be orders of magnitude more testing, but layer adhesion by flow rate by fan speed would be really cool. I dont think I've seen someone directly measure how "melted" the filament is either. For example on a 1mm plain nozzle, how solid is the core of the extrudate at various flow rates? A CHT nozzle? How does that affect things like shrinkage and curling? It would be very interesting to be able to optimize for the "most perfect" print, instead of just the fastest print, especially since the fastest print is most likely complete unusable garbage.

If you clog a nozzle like this your pretty screwed. For that amount of money, No way.

The Revo system, while neat in concept, is just not for me at this time. I'm so invested in the V6 system with my various nozzles (including a couple CHT nozzles) I'm just not tempted. For those invested in Revo, it's nice that they have a higher-flow nozzle. Super cool testing setup, by the way.

I totally understand companies wanting to make things proprietary, open is ofcourse great for the consumer and having more choice. But, having more choice, ensures E3D to make less money. And in the end, that's what keeps it alive. I had a colleague who developed a fancy camera, but closed it incredibly well as China would immediately jump on it and make it for 10x less. In this day and age, you can't compete almost and my prediction is, things are going to be more and more closed source. I wouldn't mind to buy E3D nozzles, but only if the support is there and good, because that is what I would be paying extra for. ps. love the in depth analysis!

So do the waves coincide with the rotation angle of the extruder's stepper motor? i.e.: is it something related to the spindle angle such as a non-circular gear changing the pushing force as its radius slightly changes?

Thank you for covering the high flow options. I’m just switching over to Revo and it really helped me decide which nozzles I want to start out with.

I had my fair share with high flow hotends, namely volcano (ptfe as well as steel heatbreak), rapido hf, rapido uhf as well as a dragon hf. My experience was that with a higher maximum flow you get less flow artifacts like i call them. A typical flow artifact would be the transition between high and low flow sections like the windows of a benchy. As soon as the bow ends and only windows are printed you can see a visual difference on the surface. There is also a clear and very linear corelation between melt zone length and melting performance, around 0,6 to 0,7 mm3 per mm of melt zone length, number vary depending on material used and structure of the hotend, mostly where the thermistor sits in corelation to nozzle and heater. Sadly i haven't had a chance to try a cht nozzle, but may try the bimetallic cht one as im not wanting to switch nozzles for the one or two glass fiber or carbon fiber prints a month and steel nozzles are just a bad compromise in this case. Back to the high flow hotends. I dont see more stringing compared to standard flow ones, maybe its luck with retraction settings or so, but i use the same values regardless what filament i use. Personal favourite is of course the rapido. The low thermal mass in combination with high power heater and thermistor sitting very close to heater and filament make for a very quick reacting system, basically negating the need for a good pid tune. The only fluctuations mainsail shows is background noise since its the same variation as when the hotend is cold. The hotend i like the least is surprisingly the dragon hf. Not for clogging, totally fine even at 30 degrees ambient with 30mm fan, but rather for the position of the heatsink and melt zone extender. On a mini stealthburner it used 70% of the 40w heater just to stay at a constant temperature, no fans or flow involved. Thats because the hotend fan blowing onto the extender. Without fan its down to 30%. Designed a shroud to block airflow at the lower portion.

5:41 there is one like that, it's a V6 compatible that uses a copper insert with 3 bores. And no CNC kitchen it's not infringing on the CHT crap.

The slow pulses in the flow "pressure" may be due to the temperature fluctuating as it cannot keep up with the amount of heat transferring into the plastic. It could be the PID loop in the temp controller not being tuned for a high heat transfer and it falls behind, then catches up as the error grows, causing the plastic viscosity to fluctuate. Maybe monitoring temp during the test would catch that. Cheers,

Awesome video! Major props to putting in the obvious effort here and showing the first real results. Though I think you missed an opportunity to create a nice little #short - "Unsolved Mysteries of the Revo HF! Why is this pulsing???" From the thumbnail, the most interesting part was buried.

Its possible the wavy data could be the current feedback loop between the stepper driver and the stepper it self. Bouncing off the upper limit of its setting, as it regulates the current to the motor. That loop could also doing a dance with the heater / temp sensor loop trying to maintain temp as so much heat is pulled away with all that flow.. An oscilloscope would come in handy to graph the power signatures to see their phase relation to the wavy data your seeing.. Graphing the heater "On Time" vs wavy oscillation would allow you to see phase relation with your setup as is.

My Titan clone was pushing about 14mm/s3 (PLA 220C) thru my microswiss hotend when it started deflecting the mount and making me nervous. That rhythm seems to show itself on the surface of my prints, but it's more likely a stepper kinematics issue since the spacing is about 2mm. Nice work analyzing that mountain of data.

Wavyness could be torque variance from the stepper motor or from the gears and the contact radius.

you need a belt bed under that to get rid of the extruded material as it might influence the results when and if the material build up high enough to push against the nozzle

The wave in the force could be related to the PID on the temperature controller.

Thomas showing many of his skills. I am always impressed. Not to mention the hawaii shirts. Thank you, GOOD JOB :)

14:10 could be the the nozzle minimum diameter forcing the filament in the cause of this back pressure?

I think people skip over a really big benefit to the revo system that not that many other companies are doing. It eliminates a connection point in the heat zone. I don't know how many times I've had issues from filament either finding its way between the nozzle and heat break or residual filament getting stuck in the crack when I change to another filament type causing other issues. I could see the revo increasing reliability.

My revo micro (from time of preorder) with a full set of nozzles got only a few minutes installed on my voron. Swapped back to a high flow hotend with cht-clone nozzle. Was not the best Investment, but now i want to try revo high flow just the price is holding me back.

The pulsing *might* be an artifact from the extruder gear - the gears are not perfectly circular and dig into the filament to some degree, resulting in the filament to be not only slightly mis-formed but also coming in with a tiny speed differential: the effective shape of the gears is a pair of n-gons pushing, and as a result, there is a slight speed differential.

3 channels ? I thought it was 4 channels inside the RevoHF... I wonder if the Revo hotends would perform better or the same with a V6 heating block ?

The bouncing of your data that you mentioned is 99% likely to be the extruder. The gear may not be 100% concentric or the gear meshing might not be at its ideal lash so the force transfer vector probably isn't perfectly in line. The extruder is the cause of a lot of artifacts.

I could not wait for this test. Then I'd got inpatient and bought one and tested it. Sorry! But now I saw it. Great job! ...as usually. I found only one down side of the HF nozzle. I printed (vase mode) with a very viscous rubber like flex material with a 1.2mm HF nozzle (no regular option for this size) and there was constant under-extrusion and also delamination at some places. Though the 0.8 mm regular nozzle had absolutely no issue with the same material at the same flow rate and temperature.

I'm curious if there is any mixing inside both the Revo HF and CHT nozzles. Might be interesting to see how those multi-color filaments (MatterHackers Quantum and similar) come out. Distinct colors or some color mixing?

I with respect to maximum pushing force that the extruder can exert before it starts damaging the filament: I'm curious how Prusa's Nextruder stacks up. Since it has two idlers and a much longer contact area.

I need to upgrade to a high flow brain to keep up with this. Can you please test the effects of the newer high flow filaments, as this is something we can all use immediately.

s that rythmic pulsation caused by hysteresis in the thermal management of the hot end?

don't you think, the waviness is also a function of PID loop actively heating/not heating? hotter and colder temperature probably even more for less perfect PID values.

I purchased a revo voron for my 0.2. I wish it came standard with the high flow nozzle. It would have made things slightly cheaper.

What about unclogging those with a accupucture needle, though - 3+ times the work and a lot of luck? ;-)

Is the wavy effect maybe from the gears and/or the stepper motor where it's not consistent and exactly equal/even pressure over time?

High Thomas, I'm a great fan of your channel, congrats for an amazing content! I have a question around the high-flow nozzle which I've emailed E3D with no response. How does it interact with the improvement of velocity given by the input shaping technology? I have a Prusa MK3S+ which I'm going to upgrade to 3.5 (which provides it with Klipper and input shaping capabilities). My questions are: a) Does the increase in speed given by input shaping add up to the increase in speed of a high-flow nozzle (v.s the regular), or do the speeds sort of cancel each other out? I'm going to buy some Oxbidian nozzles to be able to print abrasives, and I'm unsure of buying the regular steel Oxbidian or the high-flow version Oxbidian, as there isn't much difference in price. b) What are the downsides of the high-flow nozzle? I understand it's more difficult to clean with an acupunture needle if there are cloggs, given the shape of the bores, anything else that comes to mind? Many thanks! Pedro

I would be curious if the oscillations are caused by the dual drive gears meshing

Zu meiner Lehrzeit schauten schon einige Extrusionswerkzeuge ähnlich aus vom Materialfluss her

Really enjoyed this video, I’m looking forward to more data from your automated test setup!

Like with many things, I probably won't be getting one of these, but it is interesting to see how they work

some haunted video artifacts at 14:21 :O

Are the waves maybe the reason for what was once called 602 error (i think) wavy outer layer pattern?

THanks Tom for another great video. Love to see more with the test extruder rig.

I have two questions that apply to both this nozzle and the volcano. What is retraction like? It seems to me that if you flow all that plastic around something inside the nozzle, that when you pull back a little, it won't be as effective as a straight bore nozzle. Is there any way to clean the inside of these nozzles? On a straight bore nozzle, you can do a cold pull. But if the filament is melted around the inside of the nozzle, you won't be able to pull it out.

don't you think, the drop at the beginning is caused by a drop in temperature due to the change in push of colder material? Just until the PID compensates.

For sure Interesting data! Thanks!

I wonder if it's possible in the HF if the waviness in The Force is something to do with the filament sucking heat out of the hotend? The comparisons between the HF and the Volcano are probably the most interesting, no?

could you do a test with "chunkier" filament, i can imagine CHT nozzle and alike would get clogged more easily?

Just a question as I go through boxes after a move. Can the original Anet A8 be brought back to life in 2023? Of course there would need to be some updates that can be done to strengthen the frame and other new features available now that were not out back then. Just a thought.....

That wave you were seeing could actually be the sine wave for the motors.

Isn’t the cht technology a 3DSolex patent that bond tech license?

Wavyness might be from a bent extruder/gear, making the gear move excentric, slightly increasing and decreasing speed.

wavyness in the data points seems familiar to me. are you by any chance powering hot end and extruder motor from the same power suply? in my homemade printer i noticed that heater was clamping power rails and stepper motor had momentary less voltage to work with and that produced rythmical artefacts on my prints that only showed up at higher speeds. but they didn't show up when i was building the printer , so i tracked it down to single power suply, adding separate power suply for the heater made motors work smoother and wavy artefacts disapeared

Some napkin math tells me it has something to do with the filament drive gear. the napkin math: I am estimating the ripple frequency to be about 0.75 Hz (6 periods in 80mm @ 10mm/s -> 0.75 Hz). The recommended steps/mm value from E3D is 397 steps / mm (at 16x microsteps) So we have: 397 microsteps/mm 16 microsteps/step 200 steps/rotation 10 mm/s This means at 10mm/s, the stepper shaft (gearbox input) gear will spin at (397/16)/200 * 10 = 1.24 Hz ) or 1.24 rotations/s This doesn't seem to correlate to the 0.75 Hz of the ripplel; HOWEVER KEEP READING!!!!!!!!!! since the Hemera has a 3.32:1 gear ratio, this means the output of the the gearbox (aka the hobbed gear) is spinning at 1.24/3.32 = 0.374 Hz. 0.374 x 2 = 0.748 which is prety close the the ripple frequency. This could be a coincidence, but it seems the period of the revolution of the filament drive gear corresponds to the period of the observed ripple. As for why it lines up. Perhaps the filament preloads the drive gear by pushing it against the shaft? idk

Thanks for the test. I am very much interested in the sample rate used on the load cell and if you checked for variance in sample rate timing as the the data seems kind of coarse for some parts of further data analysis?

The oscillation on the high flow Revo looks like classical PID oscillation to me. A few degrees C may make all the difference.

I really want to like Revo... but I just can't bring myself to use it because its not open or even semi open. I would be fine with Revo if they had a standing offer for others to make their own custom nozels just pay E3D some amount per produced unit... but patens just suck as they are currently

Somebody should make aerogel insulating socks for nozzles.

what if you need to do a cold pull, how would you do it with these nozzles?

Would be interesting to see other materials and nozzle diameters being tested.

looks like a hx711 loadcell, wondering if you use it at 10 or 80hz. But if you want more details in the reading (samples per second), try Adafruit NAU7802. It can read up to 320hz (think the loadcell reader in prusa new extruder use a hx717 with 320hz, but could not find any simple board with it). Maybe you could them see the waves also in more detail. Or the start ramp up, what maybe only caused by the static friction of the filament against the walls. Also wondering if the v6 force was against a full metal, or some with PTFE tube, could also explain maybe the overall less pressure for the V6, with less metal in contact to the filament.

Im guessing that you could create very fancy internal structures with SLM 3D printing, I'm wondering what you could do with that

I imagine once the parents age, someone will (if not e3d before this happens) will make a revo nozzle that you can thread a standard nozzle into. So a cartridge for your favorite nozzle. Want a revo with a tungsten carbide nozzle? There ya go. Ruby? Got it. Cht? Go get one. If that happened, e3d could still sell the cartridges

would it be possible to cast such a design?

what is the model of that small cnc he is using?

Waviness and PID tuning?

The waviness might be caused by the heating element as the strain cells are sensitive to heat.

What was with the artefacts whenever you were showing B roll of the display? Were you trying AI video again?

The default heater core is 40W not 30W as you said at 22:13

But to be correct, you would need to check the filament diameter before pushing it through the nozzle....I guess you also build your own diamter checker.... please add him to you automatisation tester... @MadeWithLayers

I'm very disappointed in you, Thomas. You didn't even build a conveyer belt to automatically carry off the extruded filament in your tester. 😛 On a more serious note, I'd love to see this repeated for ABS. I haven't seen a video that tested anything other than PLA for the Revo HF thus far. It would also be interesting to see if you can detect any difference between the standard Revo and Revo ObXidian nozzle breaks. Does the lower thermal conductivity of the steel in the ObXidian impact low?

Maybe it 's time to build a StealthBurner for Voron ?

Finally some nice content. 👍

No disrespect to you Tom but you need to design a printer for the market for sale your good in design and making a good product .I'd buy one with no doubt that it would be a great product

Just noticed a small mistake @ 11:20. It does top out with 15mm^3/s, because it's limited in the settings done by Prusa.

Appreciate the detailed analysis. Was at RMRRF for 2 days, literally opposite the nice E3D folks and had no idea that they had these on display. Lesson learned, say hello and be curious.

Is this just too little too late? The non-high flow nozzle on the Bambu Lab printers can push to over 24mm/s, and the new CHT type insert nozzles in the third party compatible nozzle assemblies can do significantly more in a very small package with a small heater.

I think the HF has 4 bores actually.

I don't have an issue with patents as long as they aren't used to lock away a system. There is no reason E3D could have a reasonable cost license to allow for 3rd party nozzles.

Bei zerspanenden Arbeitsgängen keine Handschuhe tragen. Sollte es zu einem Fließspan kommen, kann dieser sich leicht im Handschuh verfangen, dann wird die Hand mit Handschuh ins Werkzeug gezogen. Wenn das die BG sehen würde gibt es Ärger 😉

Can't really see the point of Revo, if you need swaps often for commercial purposes just get 2 machines dedicated for different parts, for personal use you can get 2 chts for the price on a possibly better hotend like a dragon or rapido or even a mosquito

If they froze the tips and warmed the main body, they could get a tighter fit and it'd be a perma-bond.

its all about fluctuation in the force

Very soon we will have 3d printed 3d printer nozzles.

At this time e3d should Just hire the German RU-vidrs for scientefic Testing. ..😂

This is going to be an unpopular opinion in the maker space but I have no problem with patents in general. While there is an argument for open source, the flip side is developing and machining takes a lot of money so if a patent helps a company stay in business to create new things I am for it. Where if falls apart is when a company sits on a patent doesn't do anything with it and just trolls other companies to stay in money. If you are not actively creating new technology or actually selling a product with your patented technology I have an issue.

tl;dr - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Still no obxsidian highflow sad.

👍

Out of the box, DOESN'T work on a Prusa.

womp womp i got twenty brass ones for five pounds

Ob-SID-e-an

Thomas, please stop saying Ob EXX Sidian. It's just Obsidian.

I'll wait for the Chinese copies.

you can diy that for free by 3d printing the shape then electroforming it, from titanium/chromium, tech defeats itself, patents

Hmm, Apple hater…

Good insights Keen to learn more from future videos

I had already seen all the videos on the new revo hf, but I knew your approach would be something different. Having tried testing nozzle combinations before, I really appreciate the time that went into this. Cheers!