Counterargument #2 is basically saying “well it doesn’t REALLY affect the game,” but if that’s the case why should it even exist? At best it’s exactly the same as fixed bullet spread and at worst it adds meaningless inconsistency that makes the game worse.
it's crazy how, despite tf2 having some of the best mechanics ive ever experienced in a video game, it has/had 3 of the most awful, unnecessary pieces of bad game design i have EVER seen, like random bullet spread, random crits, and random damage spread at one point. like seriously, the 3 worst mechanics i have ever heard of in all my time playing video games. take a game that is fundamentally skill intensive, and just remove people's ability to express that skill. or reward them unfairly.
Instead of removing bullet spread for pistols altogether, what we could do is give them CS:GO-style fixed spray patterns. So it's not random, but they're also not laser-accurate either.
man the development of tf2 mustve been so scuffed. on one hand its some genius design. on the other theyre discussing how to include randomness. when all mfps games before were super consistent and even having cybersport events, talking about quake and cs here. what was their idea? maybe, because this was part of orange box, they expected a wave of new fps gamers. so they decided to focus on fun and easy access
hey just wanted to say I love watching your vids, they always make the week go down a bit easier :). I think i agree with pretty much every point here except the response to counter argument 3 for long-distance shots. I feel like shotguns are inherently designed for close quarters combat, and in almost any case, for a class that has the shotgun equipped, they have another weapon that excels at med-to-long range encounters (pistol, mini gun, rocket launcher). For that reason, I still think counterpoint 3 is somewhat viable, but could totally be argued against from another angle.
I mean you could literally put damage falloff and essentially achieve the same result of random spread except that on average you’ll do the same damage no matter what unlike random spread.
Do none of the children that make this nonsense argument realize that fix spread gets wider at range and cause you to hit less pellets anyway? Or forget damage falloff exists?
I always found this topic interesting, as random bullet spread on shotguns is a thing in A LOT of games, and it hadn't been an issue on most of them till recent times (CSGO shotgun rework) being one case. Another way of fixing this, would be just increasing the accuracy of shotguns, having a tighter spread pattern would force players to aim better while also making shotguns more useful at mid distances. Shotguns have worked like this for way too long, maybe people just dislike change.. Personally i don't care if the spread pattern is random or fixed i still suck at aiming with them.
It’s been an issue in many of those games though. I remember in fortnite in particular the random spread for shotguns was really egregious, and basically made it so it was up to chance whether or not you could one pump someone. It’s definitely just a bad mechanic in every game.
Honestly I think the random spread debate in TF2 only exists because there's a server option to turn it off. If that option was never there, at least 90% of the complaints would vanish. I personally don't mind if it's on or off, but it should be noted that random spread has some benefits. TF2 is designed to favor close quarters engagements more than most other shooters, and fixed spread gives every weapon more range and accuracy than Valve intended when they balanced the weapons and classes. Random spread also looks and feels more natural. Frankly, learning to anticipate and work around randomness IS a skill. Even poker has a competitive scene where people can consistently win. It's okay to not enjoy it, but TF2 was built with this idea in mind.
@@QuintessentialWalrus yes you summed it up clearly and nicely, imo better than the video did ! (tbf the video gave me the feeling of seeing someone bash RBS without really considering any over viewpoints and implications) From the closed quarters mechanic, to the suspension of disbelief to preserve, you covered the subject more clearly and in more details, well done 👍
@@iUseDemFrapz RNG in FPS games just needs to go. What’s the point of even playing if an interaction is going to be decided by luck? At that point I’d just play slot machines if I liked randomness that much, actually nvm slot machines aren’t even random, cuz you’re always losing money. 🗿
The worst problem with random bullet spread is that it gives inconsistent feedback on aim. Did I hit my shot dead-on and was just screwed by luck? Did I miss entirely and luck was just in my favor? I wouldn't mind random bullet spread if the probability of a pellet being placed somewhere decreased with distance, because random bullet spread does benefit new and less-skilled players and thus is good for the health of the game. But the way it's implemented is horrible. Allow me to explain: The normal shotgun has that 9 pellet spread, right? The top right pellet is more likely to end up within an inch of where it would be placed without spread than it is to end up within 1-2 inches, and it's more likely to end up there than within 2-3 inches, etc. It's fairly simple to do. Pick an orientation at random (in dice terms, we'll say it's 1d360, so a random degree in a circle) and then produce several random numbers centered around 0 (in dice terms, say 6d6 - 21). This will produce a bell curve where the most common result is no spread, the majority of results are close to the center, and as you get further out, the probability of a pellet ending up there gets extremely low.
I know some about game mechanics. In tf2 there are a lot of mechanics that may not be explaned to players, like random crits and bullet spread. But as random crits can be clear as day when it helps or punishes you, bullet spread isn't as noticeable while having much more effect on game outcomes. A simple random crit can save a game but rarely have an effect on games other than sending players back to respawn. Random crits are kinda rare, but bullet spread is in every shot of shotgun. Sadly there was way to many times when one more bullet would have made me a winner. Havind really good aim is just not revarding in this game with shotguns,having the crosshair right on the target and hiting 3 pellets... while rockets have fixed explosion radious is kinda not fair. Back to the fact that bullet spread is heavily effect the games outcome: aggain shotguns can be used by 5 class if i'm right and in a match u may have multiple of them bringing shotguns. The fact of multiple people can use these weapons and constantly roll the dice is just not helping in the favor of game balance. (two scouts fight who wins? it should be the one who is the most skilled and well have better equipment [240hz monitor...] but no this little cheaky bullet spread mechanic can curve your bullets off the enemy and make you reggret ever choosing a shothun) there is a lot more aspects of this patter i could touch but it's already too long.,.
Still thinking that this game isn't csgo to have fixed spread, and just like you said, it can be mostly ignored, 'cause you're supposed to use shotguns in short range mostly, and then, mid range like a second priority y'know? Aslo people who argue it can make the game more realistic, but if we are fair, if we want a REALISTIC shotgun in tf2, you just die to just chip damage
Before, i thought we shouldnt remove rbs since it would remove variety. you are basically hitting 4 or 10 pellets, no in-between. I still think that, but i came up with a little idea. instead of keeping the same rbs we have now, i'd make the corner pellets a bit more centered so there are 3 damage stages instead of 2. Don't know if it would do much, but eh, it's just a theory. A RBS THEORY
I remember when I first started playing TF2 and had shit for aim, I hated using any shotguns because they felt so inconsistent and I couldn't tell if I was aiming correctly. Of course, I eventually learned that the reason for it was random bullet spread.
@@bananar1403 Yeah. It's been years since I started playing, but way back then shotguns just made no sense to me and I hated them because of the inconsistency. I would've learned several classes way sooner and enjoyed them a lot more without it.
The argument starting around 10:25 is my main issue with RBS. Even if the outcome of a fight is affected by random bullet spread less than 1% of the time, it's more a matter of principal to me. If two players are playing the exact same class with the exact same loadout over a LAN network, the only factors that should influence the fight are their own skills (movement and aim). The other thing to note is that the argument "It barely affects your aim if at all" is in itself a logical fallacy, specifically an appeal to probability. An argument based on the fact that "it's not even that significant," isn't an argument.
I love random bullet spread, it keeps the game from being the same every time i run a different gun. I think having the panic attack use fixed it cool tho, you can use it to get close and hit all your pellets
9:11 to people who say this, if you’ve ever seen a real buckshot then you would have to argue that the cone be significantly reduced. Shotguns irl also have a fair bit of range compared to their average fps counterparts.
I have said it before, but I wonder if there's a fruitful compromise in this game between those who like variance mechanics and those who do not. Like, for examples, replace random crits with random mini-crits. Now you still have exciting variance spikes occasionally, but it's more fair as it doesn't automatically one-shot you 90% of the time the way random crits do. Or adjust RBS so that each weapon has both fixed and random pellets, instead of all random (for example in the ten pellet pattern, put six of the pellets in a fixed cross or X pattern, and scramble the other four). This would allow far more consistency, but still put a little bit of randomness in there for those who enjoy that. Variance mechanics don't have to be fully off or fully on, and no in-between shall exist; the middle ground is possible for the sake of compromise. Just a thought.
1) Replacing random crits with mini-crits just kills the idea of a "rare high moment". Getting a 120 damage rocket instead of a 90 one doesn't trigger the same dopamine hit as a random 270 damage rocket would. Infact I don't think it would trigger a dopamine hit at all. 35% damage bonus doesn't compare to a 100-200% bonus. 2) "Or adjust RBS so that each weapon has both fixed and random pellets" Panic Attack
I'm fine with random spread existing, but the problem I have is that the spread variance within the cone is larger than the spread of fixed patterns. If the cone's area was the same size as the area of the fixed square (or shortstop triangle) your overall accuracy would still be the same over a hundred shots as fixed spread. As-is though random spread makes your shots less accurate on top of the variant spread patterns. I see random spread in the same light as something like mana screw in Magic the Gathering. Yes it sucks when it affects you and maybe even feels like an undeserved win if your opponent gets rng screwed, but it evens out between players over large sample sets and lets worse players sometimes get kills they don't deserve, which is a /good/ thing in this argument mind. Again, losing to a bad player who got good spread rng on a badly aimed shot will not feel good, nor is it meant to feel good. What it does, though, is give the worse player a taste of what it feels like to do well, even if they don't know they didn't deserve it. I want to reiterate that I do not like /how/ random spread is handled, but I do think its existence has a valid case from a game designer's standpoint. Just, not from the standpoint of enfranchised players, who are going to feel slighted by it in the vast majority of cases.
If the cone area was the same size as fixed then all it does is make the worst case scenario the same as fixed but makes it possible for it to be more accurate. It effectively makes using fixed spread always rolling the worst rng.
Remember when every single source of damage dealt random amount of it? (In a small range) I don't, never played that versions of the game, but it sounds insane.
It wasn’t. People greatly overestimate how much these elements affect them. In tf2, +/- 15% damage rarely affected how many shots it took for a class kill. Pyro, heavy, medic, sniper, and spy were all pretty much unaffected, and I don’t think there was a single case where it would take something from a 2 shot kill to a 1 shot kill, and it was very rare to go from a 2 shot kill to a 3 shot kill.
If it affected pipes it's hard to imagine how it wouldn't make things horrible against Soldier and Heavy for Demoman. I know it's only one class against two, but when every pipe counts... Oh well, I didn't play that so I can't tell.
@@thegoose8663 Against heavy it didn't make much of a difference. A sitting target is still easy to hit, an occasional 4th pipe rarely made a difference. Against a soldier is probably the most drastic example of it, with a soldier who is at full health and doesn't rocket jump potentially taking 3 pipes if you get unlucky and if you aren't using stickys. But if you're fighting a soldier who never rocket jumps he's probably not very good anyway. Plus you had the bonus chance to one shot sandman scouts with a single pipe. Not even soldiers could do that at a distance
in regards to the comment about bullet spread on pistols, SMGs, and revolvers I think that should remain the same as it is still consistent damage, though maybe they could implement something like CS:GO's mechanic of a fixed spread pattern that alters over time, but then have it go completely random after the first few shots instead of just the very first one. cross-map accuracy with high-ish damage numbers after a full clip just doesn't belong on a class like the scout outside of the wrap assassin, which is just consistent moderate damage at long ranges. maybe an argument could be made for the sniper's SMG but that's more of a close range option anyway for when people attempt to rush him, and at that point the random spread doesn't really affect much but it could benefit from the same CS:GO-inspired change. I don't think it'd change much to do anything with the revolver though, it's just a regular gun that's good at doing chip-damage at a distance, removing the spread wouldn't really change that since it didn't affect the gun much in the first place
If your shot gun is loaded with gravel, could make more sense like a blunder bust. I think it more of a piece of rebar used in a sword fight as a "less control" or how "resourceful" a person is using worse items making the moments of higher end weapons in there hands even more valuable. That could be a difficulty mechanic. Otherwise randomize the cross hairs to give players carpel tunnel.
i have lost so many times due to this mechanic, i cant seem to catch a break from it the argument that it doesnt actually do much is completely ridiculous - you can see from a clip in this very video that the damage can range wildly 5:10 people complain about random crits a lot because it triples damage, but bullet spread is ALSO capable of tripling damage as you can see by the 27-60 spread on a relatively close range target
I don't like that some fixed bullet spreads are horizontally asymmetric. I would expect this to be fixed if Valve decides to make fixed spread default. Currently, the fixed bullet spread is tighter than the typical random bullet spread, so I think the fixed bullet spread needs to be widened. I think that the people that champion fixed bullet spread prefer it so much because of this. Not that they were aware of this, but just the consistent higher damage with fixed over random.
2 positive things I see about random bullet spread in casual: 1. it encourages you to play closer to your opponent, making it a riskier fight with satisfying meat-shots, a competent player will keep his distance because he can aim well with FBS, RBS tells him to not use this advantage and instead play in the supposed range of the shotguns. - it uses uncertainty to make you get closer instead of only making it do less damage, meaning you are not allowed to try min-maxing its range. 2. would you rather tell a player to shoot enemies with the general rule that if they get closer and aim with the center they will do more damage? [
That moment when u they don’t know about the rigged cs comp scene. Also why is this video not about cs or random crits? Cs would have had a far bigger scene for this mechanic?
I like random bullet spread. I understand there are a lot of arguments against it, but I just like it because I am used to it. And because it probably helped me as a new player to stay alive longer, and maybe do more kills. Maybe I thought I was progressing where I was not. But I just like it
random bullet spread is on nearly EVERYTHING, yet valve only lets you tweak shotguns with the command. pistols, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, sticky launchers, miniguns, needle guns, SMGs, and revolvers. really, the only things that aren't random are melee weapons, most projectiles, snipers, and sentries. personally, i kinda don't care about shotgun spread. not because i don't think we shouldn't remove randomness, but because its a bit of an unfair buff to shotguns when everything else has to suffer.
@@turmspitzewerk i would personally take spread off of everything except miniguns, and maybe pistols because long range spam on sentries *could* be too strong on classes that aren't supposed to do well against sentries, unsure on that one. on sticky launchers its so minimal that you can hardly notice it even holding your crosshair still and spamming left click, but sure why not take it off. spy revolvers have no reason to have it and are probably the most impacted after stuff like pistols and shotguns
@@turmspitzewerk The reason those other guns have randomness is to make them not amazing at sniping, which this game tries to avoid. There's a reason the amby was nerfed, and only 1 class does good damage at long range (and is hated for it).
@@nobleradical2158 yeah, it was nerfed to have damage falloff, not to make it more inaccurate. the reason it was good is because it was one of the few weapons that essentially had no falloff. there's no reason any other weapon in the game can't get the same treatment.
the real problem IMO is the fact that the fixed spread is statistically smaller than the non-fixed. if they made the non-fixed spread the same size as the fixed then I think the difference would be way less noticeable
Random spread bullets do not fire at the edge of the max spread every time, on average they would shoot around were the fixed spread would be. If the fixed spread was the same as max random spread it would be near worst case scenario when firing at long range. The bullets would be less lopsided, but would be more spread out than average random spread bullets.
This is a good compromise IMO. The reason almost every shooter on the market has random bullet spread to some degree is because it looks really weird and unnatural when it's not there. If you had a square filled with 9 small circles, and one pellet would end up somewhere in each circle, that gives the advantages of each style. This is actually kinda how CS:GO's shotguns work -- there's random spread, but it's within a consistent pattern you can predict.
@@QuintessentialWalrus Tbh random spread should just disappear, it’s ancient “game design”, has no purpose and doesn’t make the game funny at all, at least random crits make the weapon glow and shits, funny the first few times then you start hating them too lol.
Yeah, I also thought about that. But it's balanced because it also shoots 3 rockets in very quick sequence, instead of 1. And don't get me started on Original and Standard Rocket Launcher :D
Random bloom also makes the cone of damage larger (Zesty uploaded a video about it a few hours ago) making shotguns feel even worse at any range. Not sure why this mechanic hasn't taken the Damage Spread route and just been written out of casual
@@blakjaket4472 Erm ackshuwally with fixed spread its not a cone its er pyramid, but yeah, if they were actually similar in size instead of fixed being much tighter then i really wouldnt care
@snazzymakesmusic this aint cod, tf2 shotguns arent close range 1 hit beasts they're a respectable mid range burst damage option and random spread kinda kneecaps them
I mostly play Heavy and use the shotguns on occasion and I tend to not notice RBS too much. But Scout on the other hand is a whole different story for me with RBS
THIS, I have never seen this adresses in Zesty's video or in any other video on this topic. Both scout and engi can play the game by getting big meatshots right in someone's face (or at least in mid/close range), and if these meatshots are a TAD bit off then you *might* deal a measly 40 damage to that 80 health soldier instead of the damage you should have dealt, making the encounter either way more stressful or downright unsatisfying due to a shred of aim issues. The most funny thing about it is that, main rebuttal is all about AIM but I never see anyone addressing this humble themselves. They always act like the shit as though they know when someone has a "skill issue" and its "a negligible problem to someone that has good aim". Quite ironic
@@Svettanka there is where the soda is for because when you crit(mini) it ignores damage fall off, which can do some pretty nutty damage from mid to far range.
Also real shotguns have much better range that practically any videogame depictions them having for the sake of balance, like you can still do some serious damage at 100 feet. Meaning a "realistic" shotgun could at the very least 2 tap light classes from the far side of the 2Fort bridge.
the main issue i have with random bullet spread is just how far the bullets can go from the fixed position. if it was a lot closer to the same size, i think it would be more fair.
I think it was shounic who made a video on the mechanics behind random bullet spread? either way, the video showed just how wide the spread is compared to fixed.
@Fujitachi I'm not saying crits dont affect the game or they're not annoying. I fucking hate random crits. But random bullet spread affects my game damn near constantly if I'm playing almost half the classes in the game. It's just a question of what I encounter more frequently
For something teased as "the definitive RBS analysis" in your last video and with a title citing that it "NEEDS to GO," this video really isn't persuasive in the slightest. More time is spent illustrating that it's a mechanic no one really notices than is spent making strong arguments for its removal. In the absence of these arguments, the counterarguments seem to be presented in their worst possible form for the sake of having an easy to tear down strawman and are padded with "nothing" counterarguments like #1 and #5 to make the whole seem weaker through dilution. I'd even argue that some points are misrepresented - for example the "real comments about RBS" don't explicitly shift any blame onto one's aim, one of which even hints that the key to 'get good' is to get closer. In regards to RBS, I have very little stake in the game, believing in something like counterargument #3 with a dash of #6 myself but would not really miss it were it to go. Shotguns being somewhat unreliable at mid-range helps incentivize getting closer using your movement in a close-ranged movement-based game in tandem with mechanics like ramp-up, without having to make the standard shotgun spread so large that it makes shotguns outright useless at said mid-range. The negative impacts of RBS seem constantly overblown to me, the shotgun isn't the primary source of damage for 3/5 classes that can equip it, while the 2 classes who have shotguns in their primary slot have a pistol in their secondary to use at the ranges where RBS might make shotguns too inconsistent; the Engy additionally having a sentry gun and the Scout not only having increased ramp up but two unlocks that push for meatshots. In addition, every hitscan weapon in TF2 aside from the sniper rifle has some form of spread, not only adding to the uniqueness of said rifle, but calling into question why shotguns shouldn't have said spread if the others should. These aren't exactly beliefs I would die on a hill for, but my fair-weather relationship with them hasn't been shaken by, or even really questioned by, this video.
If you want a good in depth technical explanation of how Random Bullet Spread works take a look at Zesty's recent video on fixed spread. It not only explains it, but also the consequences of both removing and keeping it.
@@AmeliaDoesYT Ya I did, gave it a full watch to allow the points to be made. I just feel a lot of the mechanical and in depth parts about RBS are further explained in Zesty's video compared to this one which has a rather surface layer.
9:10 Wrong, that counterargument is so wrong. If it was real life, shotguns, namely ones with spread would be deadly in single shots up well past the ranges this game uses. Basically slugs would out range sniper with many pelts would out range solly's max drop off. Shot guns are "short ranged" Yet if ported right to video games they would be one shot monsters from across the map because the ranges games deal with are too close.
In some cases, RBS can outright kill weapons for me, the shortstop being the perfect example as such. While RBS is far from the shortstop's biggest issue as a scattergun, it certainly doesn't do it any favors either. The shortstop having less pellets per shot and those pellets each dealing more damage means that the punishment of potential damage lost is so much greater despite it doing less damage than scout's other primaries. So while RBS may not play as big of a role due to the tighter spread, when it does work against you, the effects of it are noticeably greater. Every time I've tried using this thing, no matter how long I train with it to get used to it, I end up just using it at close range as a diet FaN or soda popper because the spread and damage falloff combined makes this thing pretty much unusable for its advertised range. Hell it's better to use it at that range because at least then if you can actually aim with the tighter spread, RBS is less likely to fuck you over, which is both harder to do than with other scatterguns and less rewarding per shot compared to other options. You constantly fight against the design of the weapon itself more so than the actual enemy team as a result. Which is why the shortstop is the one weapon that I would say isn't even up for debate for having its bullet spread fixed, similar to the panic attack, due to it functionally behaving so different from other shotguns. You are seriously telling me the shotgun best suited for point blank range gets a fixed spread, yet the shotgun that is supposed to operate at mid-range just doesn't get it? Despite it dealing less damage at close range than its competition and basically the same at mid and long range (per shot) anyway because of the fewer pellets? The shortstop is already crippled by its mediocre damage, and RBS is just the nail in the coffin for this thing to me. Thank you for reading my unhinged rant on my poor boy that valve massacred.
100% random bullet spread sucks on the shotgun weapons. However, the revolver, pistol, and SMG are balanced on the fact that they aren't 100% accurate laser beams. That just sounds like something that doesn't fit very well in TF2. They aren't meant to do good damage across the map even if you have perfect aim, because that would be kinda ridiculous. So, I am fine with the current state of those weapons. Unlike random bullet spread in shotguns, most people are comfortable with the idea of a pistol not being 100% accurate and it is kind of an assumption you make about the weapons when you first use them, that's a feature in basically every shooter. They could also make random bullet spread a bit less bad by giving them a sort of weighted randomness. I'm not a professional in random number generation so just bare with me for a second, but what if the bullets had a sort of preference for going towards the center and being much more packed and towards the center? So instead of the bullets having a chance to just all go off to the side it's more likely that they will all just form near the center. I'm pretty sure random bullet spread actually makes the shotgun pellets spread out even more than fixed spread.
My solution would be to reduce the area by which those random pellets can be placed in. Cause uhh... Random bullet spread currently makes it so that shotguns have a wider area they can hit in vs fixed spread. And it isn't a small decrease in potential accuracy, it is a large one. Now something fun with fixed spread, it can actually allow you to place your target between the pellets. Random spread however makes that a little less likely.
Nah, random crits are kind of funny. While it sucks when your opponent gets one, I’m willing to take that for the satisfaction of hitting a random crit.
@@Big_RandyTM I actually quit the game for many reasons, but random crits were definitely a huge one. I mostly played on Uncletopia though, but it was always the same maps/modes/ anyway.
Random bullet spread also fucks with the frontier justice a lot. There's been a lot of times when I only did 18 damage at medium range and wasted a revenge crit.
It is funny in that in my engineer frag video, this is one kill where I needed to use 5 shots to kill a pyro at the same distance. The shots’ damage was also inconsistent per shot. Great video, well researched and amazing analysis!
once again commenting to petition that I'd love to see differently shaped bullet patterns for each pellet-shotgun, with each shape offering slightly different styles of play. taking into account the 10 pellets that most of the weapons use, shapes such as: - A standing triangle with broader corners than the standard square, but smaller inner sides. - A tightly spaced Diamond with no center bullet, spacing the center 2 evenly along the x axis, the marksman's shotgun (but should go to like the reserve shooter (but maybe reworked to deal less base dmg but in return better reward those blast air shots) or the family business, or something that trades base damage for tighter precision, but is not to the level of the shortstop - A 5-5 2-column line meant to be spaced to reward near-perfect x-axis accuracy, but suffer if you shoot just a little left or right of your target. - 3 horizontal rows of 3, 4, and 3 pellets close together, not quite as spaced out as the panic attack, but useful for like the widowmaker for always getting some edge on targets, especially crowd shoot-ups - A center X of 5 pellets, with a tighter row of 3 on the bottom and 2 on the top giving an oblong egg shape of sorts, maybe for the BBB so it has a bit more central meat to the shots even when further away. - a wide circle of 9 pellets with a single central pellet in the center. poor spread, but meant for a weapon like the backscatter where the upclose and personal could make a huge difference (i dunno, just throwing out ideas I've had in my head since UnusualSandwich's first video on this) none of these are perfectly thought out or maybe even balanced, but I love the concept of unique pellet patterns as a replacement to RBS
The best argument for making fixed bullet spread the default for casual is the fact that Valve did away with random *damage* spread years ago, and we were better off for it. Random damage spread was awful and inconsistent, not rewarding skill whatsoever and leaving a lot of damage up to completely random chance.
The damage spread argument kicked up when you had the loch n load and direct hit able to just randomly 1 hit some classes while they were stock by pure rng. It was fuckin stupid.
The random crits are good because they aren't balanced _for a reason,_ they make the game funnier, and somehow, no matter how paradoxical it is, they make it fair in some situations (when your team gets steamrolled, and when a tryhard is getting 40+ killstreaks) Random damage decrease on the other hand, isn't a random reward, while crits are annoying and fun based on pov, random damage in any form is just... Annoying.
@@Bread-kun Yeah lol, and this is basically the same thing, random spread allows you to either kill in situations where fixed spread wouldn’t be able to, or viceversa, either way it’s the exact same thing as random damage.
In terms of game design, having players access multiple characters or options is more random than it is orderly. It is not expressly random, but it falls into the vertiginous fun that games offer. Without vertigo and chaos (multiple options for play, in this example), games become boring. That’s why vertigo in game design is so important. Otherwise we’d all be playing Ryu vs Ryu mirror matches all day and Soldier 1v1s exclusively. So, in multiplayer games, randomness is actually key to a fun experience. Promoting only static, skill based play results in a game that is boring and, in my opinion, often toxic.
True, but I'm sure you're aware that RBS isn't random in those ways; it's not another option, just a dice roll on top of an otherwise skilled interaction.
skill based play is the opposite of boring in my opinion, it’s what makes games fun for me in the first place. I fucking love going from being a dude who gets his ass kicked every hour to improving and starting to kick ass back. randomness is an important element to some games, like mario party, or literally any card game, but it feels incredibly out of place in team fortress. despite how wacky it all is, even in casual tf2 is still a tactical shooter, it’s all about setting up defenses, pushing the enemy, getting in the perfect position to cripple the enemy, and working together as a team. but adding randomness just in my opinion takes away from the obvious depth tf2 has and makes it a worse experience. imagine if everytime you used a hadouken as ryu the damage it does and the speed at which it traveled the screen was completely random, it takes away from the obvious skill it takes to play the game and rips control away from the player, and that just sucks.
If I liked RNG that much, I’ll just go and play slot machines… also this only applies to single-player (somewhat), it’s funny the first few times you kill someone out of luck, then it becomes boring, not to mention frustrating when you die to a random crit yourself, literally the opposite of fun lmao, dumbest argument ever.
@@ultra2424 Hell I hate RNG so much that I want it to disappear even in card games lol, anyway I completely agree with you man. Also Pfp Sauce (Artist)? 🗿
"It's how real shotguns work" also flops based on the fact that shotgun shells will have a LOT more than ten pellets in the shell. Those are more like a cloud of tiny bullets
why do people want class limits? it's just a really bad idea. without it, only a select few people in each server can play the class they want, and then everyone else has to compromise to some other class that they don't want to play. and nobody is going to cry over an entire team of snipers, that's just funny. if they do, idk they can fuck off to another server or something
I think people just wanted to keep random bullet spread just to keep Scout in check, but I think it's stupid and is why Soldier and Demoman have so many mains, I actually ranted about this years ago and I'm glad you made this video.
@@AmeliaDoesYT yes because valve is definitely going to rise out of the grave and make big changes to a 15 year old game instead of doing literally anything else that would get them more money
Honestly I'm torn on random bullet spread. On one hand I understand that some players dislike inconsistent pellet spread, as it makes long-range shots less viable. However, that's how shotguns are supposed to work. On top of that, fixed spread actually increases the effective range of shotguns giving them a straight up buff (as shown in Zesty's most recent video).
Shotguns can be used as sniper rifles irl. It doesn't lose strength and a pellet hitting you it's almost no different from a pistol shot. And they are reliable and accurate, it doesn't hit stuff sideways
I think you missed the most important argument for removing rbs, the fixed pattern is about 50% smaller than the rbs cone. That's a major reason why you notice when it's turned off. Zesty jesus made a short video recently about it, I dont neccesarily agree with his opinion on the topic but his explanation on how it realistically affects play is good
One thing that is never brought up with rbs on shotguns, is that rbs isn't always negative. in zestys video on the topic, he recorded an average damage spread on the shotgun. He found that about 20 percent of the time, you'll be doing more damage than fixed spread. Which is a point that is undermined, occasionally you are worse for no reason or better for no reason. Basically being soft random crits. And on the topic of it being not noticable so therefore just keep it, If it's that unnoticable then why have it.
@@Svettanka Same here, I want consistency, not a chance to do more or less. It's not needed at all, it's a worthless mechanic that sits next to random damage spread and random crits in terms of worthlessness. All of these mechanics are garbage that delute the cool balance and gameplay of TF2.
You’re not even quoting the video right: he said that “the shotguns will do 20% more damage on average”. The problem though, is that this forgoes consistency.
Short answer: I disagree with your argument, and believe that Shotgun Bloom is important to TF2's balance. Long Answer: With what we know about Fixed Shotgun Bloom in TF2, it actually gives you a tighter spread, effectively increasing your range with shotguns, which I think is something that isn't as good as people think. Pyro and Heavy aren't nearly as affected by this as they have much better secondaries (Flare guns and Lunchbox items respectively) Soldier using a shotgun forces him to play more grounded and around his team, and it's mainly used in cases where your opponent is close to a point where rockets will do harm to you, and with it being best at close range, is where he'd use it. Engineer with a shotgun, unless you are playing with Minis, plays mostly around his buildings and maintaining them, using his shotgun to deal with spies or with oncoming pushes. Scout, however, would be made far more of a nuisance than he is atm. Giving scout the ability to deal more consistent damage at mid range is a poor balancing idea, since he is one of the most pesky classes to deal with due to his on-demand maneuverability, allowing him to do decent damage at a range where he's mostly safe is a very bad idea. It would make pyro v scout incredibly one sided as scouts just need to stay out of flame thrower range and take pyro down easily. As a pyro main, i'd think you wouldn't want that lol. Shotgun Bloom, for scout mostly, is important because it keeps him in check. He should be forced to get as close as possible to deal the most damage as possible, instead of being able to do 50 damage shots from a distance where shotguns really shouldn't be the most effective. Shotguns are meant to be weapons where you want to be as close to your opponents as possible, because they're notorious for their wide spread of pellets. They're not mean to be precise. If they were, they wouldn't have bloom to begin with. Also, removing random bullet spread on pistols, smgs, and revolvers is an incredibly stupid idea, to put it bluntly. Scatterguns being more accurate with bloom off is bad enough, but with a pistol that's more accurate? Scout just doesn't have to get close to deal with anybody, he's be borderline OP. Also consider the Diamonback and being 2 shot across the map in under a second, meanwhile the ambassador was nerfed for that same reason. Point is: TF2 is a game where most fights are taken at close to mid range, and making it so that fighting distance is stretched even further would make the game worse balance wise. Random Bullet Spread is important to the balance of TF2, and I believe it should stay. Valve honestly would've removed it from casual back in MyM if they thought it was an issue.
This is so exaggerated. You wouldn't see a sudden rise of scouts peppering people for consistent 6 dmg chip from long range just because random bullet spread go turned off. Even with random spread off the pistol is still much more effective at longer distances than the scattergun, so scouts effective range would not change significantly. The only exception would maybe be with the shortstop, but that weapons whole gimmick is that it is more effective at longer ranges, and in its current state in casual its pretty meh, so buffing it really shouldn't matter. You can say things like "it would make pyro vs scout more one sided", but this would only hold true if you ignore the fact that the pyro can also equip the shotgun and have more consistent ranged dmg too? And if you want to act like pyro equipping shotgun is somehow a huge detriment to his effectiveness (its not) then you also still have to ignore the fact that even with random bullet spread off its not going to suddenly make it so pyro can enter flamethrower range against a competent scout. Any good scout will still just hold s and shoot the pyro regardless of bulletspread being off or on, it might take 1 or 2 more scattergun shots (assuming the scout just doesnt use the pistol anyways), but the pyro is still most likely going to lose regardless. Saying it will suddenly make the matchup "incredibly one-sided" like its not already is very disingenuous. Shotgun bloom doesn't really keep scout in check any more than any of the other random shit in casual. Its not like engineer/spam/chokepoints are going to suddenly stop existing in casual because his bloom is slightly more consistent on his scattergun. Scouts not going to be suddenly dominating every match and making it unplayable because he can deal a consistent 25 dmg at midrange instead of a dice rolled 10-30 dmg lmao. Its not like scouts are top scoring and dominating on every uncletopia match because his damage is slightly more consistent. In fact scout is still probably the least common class to see on the top of the scoreboard in those servers, because the greater presence of competent players in a 12v12 environment surprisingly enough, does not favor the short-ranged, single-target, glass-cannon class. Also why even mention how shotguns are "supposed" to work? You realize this only goes against your argument. Shotguns irl are still lethal from long distances, a shotgun pellet hitting you from 50 meters away would probably still be lethal rather than doing 6 dmg. Your arguments are really poor. It feels like you are just grasping at any reason possible, no matter how flimsy or insignificant, to keep random bulletspread (probably because zestyjesus said its good and you blindly follow whatever he says).
Your editing is masterful as always, if I may request, Mr SharkWhich, could you link your previous RBS video in the description so I can see the comparison?
Because allot of people actually use that as an argument lol. Just goes to show how little effort people put into their arguments just to have an opposite opinion to someone. Like Zesty
@@fujitachi The way it is presented in the video misrepresents the entire argument by framing it as "Oh TF2 should be more realistic" when in reality, there's more reasoning behind it such as balancing. Furthermore, aesthetic choices in a game isn't necessarily a bad thing.
I feel like Random Chance is best when it essentially acts as a fluctuation of difficulty where the hardest is still fun and playable if you have enough skill.
While I don't think random bullet spread benefits the game and that it's better left off, I don't think the developers were stupid for incorporating it in TF2. Shoot a shotgun in any other video game, and nearly all of them will have random spread, even CS:GO when you shoot the first shell. I'm sure the devs were just doing what was the norm and not really thinking how it could impact the game or try to spin it in a way that "it's good for less skilled players." If you wanna talk about a truly unnecessary mechanic that didn't have any reason to be in the game, look no further to random damage spread. Before Gun Metal, any damage you dealt could deal between an extra 15% more damage to 15% less damage. It's the reason the lock n load was overpowered back then, not because it did too much damage, but because it had a ~30% chance to one hit kill any class thanks to random damage spread. The only reason I can think as to why this was included in the game was because someone was really stuck in "old school" mode for the game design, and incorporated what games like Doom did where weapons also deal random damage.
"they are realistic" well irl shotguns also shoot 100% accurately within 15 meters, the spread just isnt that big for at least that distance. ofc irl shotguns are still efficient whrm shooting across a room. but game shotguns are quite different
Plz valve make game 100% skill base without enything random so evry game can feel same cant wait for it dumb valve who is makeing game for years tink thay can make videogame fun but no i play for 3.000h so i know a loot more how to game become fun for evryone
Only argument I disagree with is at 10:54. Shotguns were designed to be close-to-mid range weapons, even training mode tells you to use it as such. If you need to deal damage outside of this range you better have equipped a weapon that is suited for longer ranges or close that gap. In the case of the scout, his secondary pistol and his speedy n' jumpy boi legs. For pyro, the flare gun (or equivalent) or the thermal thruster.
The problem with RBS is that its too random. If there the distributions of pellets was such that there are more pellets closer to the crosshair, and less farther away it would make sense. But currently its just random or the diffrence is minimal.
To somewhat buff the pistols (and SMGs) accuracies, they could make it like the ambassador, the reticle spreads and becomes innacurate, shooting on bursts to maximize damage at range, and maybe lower the damage on very long ranges That could also work for the Tomislav, probably.
My response to counterargument 2 is, if the random spread truly doesn't make a difference, why is it in the game? It's just not a meaningful argument. If someone thinks it doesn't matter then it might as well go.
