OK, I guess this video counts as controversial since it's got a comparatively high dislike ratio and double the comments of the last episode of Bad Weapon Academy which also has double the views. So let me respond to some responses I've gotten. 1: Your data is bad and you should feel bad I know. I wanted a higher pool of matches and I wanted to test this out while also using a Flamethrower with each weapon. I even wanted to do a few with the Scorch Shot and Phlog for the hell of it, but I just didn't have the time. I might make a follow-up video some time in the future, and by then I'll try to come up with some better data once I'm not under as much of a hard time crunch where I have to get out two high effort videos out in a month. 2: You are a Sniper main, that means your video is invalid because you are clearly biased I made every effort to divorce myself from my favorite class, who I barely get to play anymore to begin with since the vast majority of my time in TF2 is now spent focusing on making these videos, and I didn't even mention anything about Sniper until about 13 minutes into a 17 minute video. If that mere mention suddenly invalidates everything I said previously that had nothing to do with Sniper, then I can't help you there. On the issue of bias, Pyro is easily the class least affected by the Scorch Shot, and he's also the class that happens to use it, meaning it might be worth it to consider your own potential biases as I did. If you spend the majority of your time playing Pyro with the Scorch Shot and don't see how it's annoying to fight against, then maybe there's a reason for that. 3: You complain about the Scorch Shot, but you main Sniper and Sniper is overpowered I won't deny that Sniper has balance issues. I don't think they extend so far as to make the class on its own overpowered because I think that would require a lower skill floor. A bad Sniper is just about as good as the other team not having a player on their team which I don't think could happen for an overpowered class. Now, in the case of those select few really, really good Snipers, then problems start to emerge. To begin with, I think Sniper is not punished enough for missing. He reloads quickly and passively and has a large ammo pool so he can stay in one spot without having to make himself vulnerable by repositioning, (all issues shared with the Scorch Shot, with the exception that a Pyro on the move is far from vulnerable at close range.) As Zesty pointed out, quickscoping is also really fucking fast. I don't think Sniper's balance is perfect, but that's not what this video is about which is why I didn't go on a tangent about Sniper's balance despite what a hot button issue it is in the community at the moment. 4: The Scorch Shot isn't the most rewarding weapon, look at the Sniper Rifle and Direct Hit This was poor wording on my part. In terms of raw damage, obviously the Scorch Shot isn't the most rewarding unless it hits the entire team at the same time while they're all on fire or something. However, it does the most shit with a single shot. A Sniper Rifle, with a single shot, just does damage, a fuckload, sure, but just damage. You don't get stunned and have damage over time inflicted by a Sniper Rifle, and the bullet doesn't bounce in the air so it can headshot you twice and inflict damage over time to your nearby teammates. In terms of the sheer amount of things that hitting someone once accomplishes, I don't think there's any competition. 5: I use the Scorch Shot because it's fun, what's the big deal? Can't you just leave it alone and let us have fun? The idea of game balance in multiplayer games is to ensure that everyone, not just the person who uses the most powerful tools at their disposal, is having fun. If your fun is coming at the expense of everyone else's, then that's bad game design. It's not inherently bad to have something overpowered in a video game, but it is in a multiplayer game if it's 1: Easily and readily available at any time, and 2: Incredibly easy to use and abuse. Something like an Ubercharge is obviously overpowered, but it takes a long time to build up and needs to be used tactically. This doesn't apply to the Scorch Shot which is why it's poorly designed, not fun to fight and needs to be nerfed. 6: You're misusing the term "stunlock," it's a fighting game term, not an FPS one I've often heard the term "stunlock" applied to things like pre-Jungle Inferno airblast or many mechanics in Overwatch (part of why I never touched that shit,) and so applied it to the Scorch Shot. I understand its origins in fighting games, I just didn't realize the term was that restrictive. 7: You are just mad because you are angry Yes but in five minutes I'll stop being angry, but you'll never stop being a Pyro main.
I 100% agree with everything in this video. The scorch shot could have been just fine as a sort of "practice" detonator, but they HAD to make it the biggest crutch.
@@Spanishdog17 like using weed. Your tf2 “family” will be really uncomfortable with it, maybe they’ll even say something about it, but you know what it does for you, and fellow detonators can respect the skill it takes
I feel like if this guy was trapped on an island and the only flare he could use to signal for help was just the scorch shot, he would just try to survive on the island
Wrong. He would start a fire of course to start his little island survival life he gets a fire going to y'know cook some food, get heat. Then he jumps into the fire and starts burning alive see you'd think he'd be screaming in agony from the flames but he's actually happy because this is where the scorch shot comes in. He shoots himself with the scorch shot while burning alive and mini-crits himself for the ez free kill.
That's kinda funny as well, as it means the spy knows he's too stupid to pull off some plan to kill someone like him, and that's always funnier than them raging about how it's not their fault as it just isn't tired at this point.
@@davidmingle5910 More damage than a soldier vs the tr_walkway bots (with ideal settings). Not in any practical scenario. Who cares about tr_walkway bots? When discussing game balance you should only be concerned about real game scenarios and in a real game people are not going to stand still so they get hit by the mini crit, and they will seek a medic or any one of the myriad other ways to get rid of afterburn.
@@ihatethis103 Try playing the game instead of trusting what some youtuber says. You can even see even in this video how players are not getting hit twice, only the bots that are standing still in tr walkway are getting hit twice. It's not a stun, it's a knockback. Even reved up heavies can avoid the second hit.
@@Hedning1390 do you think i didn't played? Of course the players aren't gonna stand in the same fucking place they're going to run, of course It isn't Common this thing happening but Just cuz It doesn't happen Very often doesn't mean It still should be in the game, by that logic soldiers Rocket should have a chance to wipe out the entire enemy team and Just cuz It doesn't happen Very often It should stay in the game
I remember using the scorch shot BEFORE the gun mettle update. You know, when it had the explosion radius of the detonator, a little knockback, and none of the crits. I loved that thing. I'd occasionally get called a shitter because the other flare guns were meta, but now I'm a shitter because it IS the meta.
The thing is I hope this weapon gets nerfed not because I hate it, but because I love using it. As a Pybro style pyro, the explosion makes it a great tool for harrasing anyone trying to take long distance pot shots at my engineer, but the bouncing flare stunning and be able to mini-crit like it does is undeniably stupid
As someone who also loves the Scorch Shot, hard agree. Long-range flare explosions are fantastic, I love it. But the bouncing flare is just way too strong, and I agree on it being undeniably stupid.
Same here, the scorch shot is the ultimate defensive secondary tool for pyro and should be used as such, much like how the detonator is the same but for offensive use. The stigma it has for braindead spam is undeserved, because it's not braindead just spam, which, like it or not is a big part of TF2. The scorch shot is a good method of force multiplication for defense in a similar (but not as effective) way to the sentry gun, letting you further disuade people from pushing in. After two shots of the scorch shot, any unprepared offensive will be sent retreating to rethink their choices. This is why I think it should have lower splash radius and splash damage, and halved afterburn duration. This way it would work just as well as a defensive weapon without being wayyyy too powerful
Fun fact, in TFC, pyro had an incendiary rocket launcher as one of his weapons. I think this was the inspiration for the flare guns. Or also the cowmangler. "The Incendiary Cannon is a weapon in Team Fortress Classic games and is only used by the Pyro. It launches rockets that set targets within its blast radius on fire, even through walls. The rockets fired by the Incendiary Cannon are as fast as those fired by the Rocket Launcher [the biggest major difference], but deal reduced damage. Unlike the Rocket Launcher, it does not need to be reloaded. In all its incarnations, the Incendiary Cannon is the only weapon that can set targets on fire at anything other than close range. While the player can rocket jump with the Incendiary Cannon, it will not propel the player as far as the Rocket Launcher. On the upside, it will do much less damage than using the Rocket Launcher would. The amount of ammo consumed by the weapon depends on the game; in Quake Team Fortress it uses three rockets per shot. In Team Fortress Classic, it uses one rocket per shot."
another note is that the scorch shot actually deals the most damage to buildings out of all the flare guns. the normal flare gun deals 30, detonator deals 23, but the scorch shot deals 36 for some reason.
@@violetchan6402 To be fair, buildings can’t be lit by a dragon’s fury, so it’s only fair to allow it to be able to fight a building with decent damage, considering it’s a primary weapon. In the case of the scorch shot, a secondary item, there’s literally no reason.
Funny thing. Dragon fury is.... bad Another pyro can repel the dragon fury shot with an air blast, i dont fucking know why and when i first did this against a pyro it melted my brain
Flare Gun: Rewards good aim with long-ranged damage, which is important for a close-ranged class. Scorch Shot: Rewards shooting anywhere within a 5 mile radius of an enemy with making them want to delete the game
As a pyro main with the tiniest bit of skill and some actual respect for enemy gamers, I despise the Phlogistinator with a *hehe* burning passion. After seeing the numbers on this, I'd sooner use the Froschenverfer.
I have a fond memory where there were four snipers along the balcony in 2fort. They were wreaking havoc but two pyros opened up with scorches and kept them suppressed. There was much burning and running
I use it on Bots (MvM) or Bots (Casual), as they're not real people and I don't need to worry about if they're having fun or not. Aside from that I just feel bad though, what right would I have to complain about it if I used it a lot?
And then on the other end of the spectrum we have the sand man, making you basically a noodle for the reward of slowing down one enemy occasionally if you hit a point blank shot with the curved projectile, so ye :D
When your goal is to win in tf2 while playing by the rules the scorch shot is the best gun for that task. It's not like your cheating this was intentionally put in the game and people aren't toxic for using it. It's like calling soldier mains toxic for rocket jumping because its really effective or saying people who main sniper are toxic because sniper is such a good class. Seriously, sniper is kinda op. My man is just salty because he got roasted by pyros one to many times.
@@dogmeat1414 so does the scorch shot. It does take a bit of skill, maybe less than the flare gun but you do still need to aim. To get the most out of the scorch shot you need to hit all your shots and make use of mini crits.
almost every time I see a scorch shot pyro on the other team ill switch to the manmelter for the hundreds of free crits. there's something satisfying about picking up 12 crits in under 10 seconds and then two tapping the scorch pyro with said crits.
Here’s the thing bout secondaries for pyro Yea, you can use one of the 2 skill based flares Yea, you can use the fire rocket launcher Yea, you can use shotguns Yea, you can use a can of uselessness But me? I think I like my J E T P A C K
I usually use the scorch shot, but I switch to jetpack as soon as a sniper i killed starts complaining about "muh op weapon, muh coward no skill"; so i fly to him and burn him with my flamethrower
I wonder what the scorch shot would be like if the flare had a speed penalty, forcing the pyro to have to aim way more ahead of their target and allowing the enemy to predict it better.
might as well make it a true area denial weapon: retain knockback on hit, reduce explosion radius slightly, remove the damage that it deals on hit (i.e. it only sets people on fire) and reduce projectile speed. change its interactions with phlog so it doesn’t go crazy (maybe a reduced charge rate). that way, scorch shot pyros can do the thing they always wanted to do: irritate enemies to no end, but without killing them (which may be a fate worse than death)
Or maybe not have the annoying bouncing thingy.. the main reason it overpowerd. Spamming it is inconvenient, but literally killing a light class with ONE flare is a absurd
That would be a very terrible idea for pyros. Pyro is a mobile class that depends on fast speed. Slowing down is basically entirely against what the classis supposed to do. Imagine a scout pistol slowly you down as you fired. It would essentially kill the weapon.
@@compatriot852 the flares already fire at an extremely fast velocity I was thinking of making it about the speed of a normal rocket or a little less I suggested this mainly because i feel like the scorch shot wants to be a sorta fire explosive Like a rocket launcher for the pyro But the issue is it does really perform differently from the other flare guns Although simply removing the bouncing flare should be enough I feel like it would be interesting if it perhaps had a slower projectile speed forcing it to be used more as area denial Of course it would need something to maybe help it perform a little better in that aspect Like increasing the explosion radius slightly but reducing the after burn slightly to compensate
The fact alone that the Scorch Shot can one shot light classes makes it over shadow all the other flare guns. At least with the flare gun you have to combo it, and the detonator is just completely over shadowed even with its capability to jump higher.
people are like 'that's unrealistic lmao' or straight up don't include the afterburn reset into their damage calcs. Guess what? If you AIM with this thing, you can pull off a rocket juggle (yes that's right) on a MOVING target by shooting their feet, which bounces them up in the air, stuns them a bit, which is more than enough time for the shot to land and REINFLICT AFTERBURN. This adds up to more than 125 damage if you don't get healed fast enough, and can be somewhat uncommonly pulled off in a choke.
@@QuokkaCore no it’s not, the detonator is balance around the fact that is use for control of masses is not supposed to be used for burst damage and you are probably using it wrong if you think that.
@@QuokkaCore overrated? i never see it really being talked about or used much, especially cause the regular flare gun or shorch shit are much better. flare jumps are flashy as hell though and i like that, i use the detonator if i feel like having fun. in the hands of the right person (not me lol) it can also be a fantastic utility for moving around without as much of the predictability of the jetpack.
@@QuokkaCore but the powerjack doesn't give you some additional vertical mobility, plus it isn't as good as closing the gap between you and your target as the detonator's flare jump is. you can not like using the detonator, but you can't deny that it has some valuable utility to it that, once mastered, can make you a powerful opponent. although i personally prefer using back scratcher or axtinguisher over the jack, so i guess that affects my opinion on the detonator's flare jumps..
@@nexusthenormie5578 hard disagree. The detonator is great for AOE damage and the mobility is just a cherry on top, plus it already opens up a lot of routes for the pyro
Reserve Shootet was the most annoying weapon in the game then it got nerfed and balanced ( it is good on Soldier but bad on pyro ) . Hope same happens to Scorch Shot to .
@@chinthescrew4907 i think the reserve shooter should be changed to give it some uses on pyro, obviously not the ability to crit by pressing M2 and M1 but it's kind of weird that they are still able to equip it.
@@vivelespatat2670 kind of weird to have yet another counter for the classes that pyro already counters though? Like, maybe trolldier or parachute demo...
I think you're mis-using the term "stunlock" pretty significantly here. In video games, a "stun" effect is one which temporarily stops the affected character from moving or taking any actions, such as McCree's Flashbang (Overwatch) or Ashe's ultimate (League of Legends). The term "stunlock" describes an event in which one or more characters are affected by multiple different stun effects in rapid succession such that they cannot control their character at all for a dangerously long period of time. An example of this is that, in many fighting games, every attack that connects stuns the opponent for a brief amount of time, such that chaining attacks together in a very precise manner leads to "combos" that can stunlock the opponent for a significant stretch of time, dealing damage all the while. The scorch shot does not stunlock, at least not on its own. Technically speaking, it doesn't even stun. All that the scorch shot does is knock up the target, temporarily limiting the target's ability to control their movement, but in no way hampering the target's ability to aim, shoot, use items, or take other actions. The scorch shot is definitely an example of a crowd control ability, an umbrella term which includes everything from stuns to knockups to pulls to disabling effects, but it is not in and of itself a "stunlock," nor does it have a "stunlock ability."
@Coolie_O It doesn't give you a speed debuff. you can never accelerate while in the air (air-strafing is arguably a glitch, and negligible anyways) outside of the scout's double-jump, which you can activate at any time, even immediately after being hit by the SS. the knockback it deals is no different from explosive knockback. It bumps you up into the air very similarly to a single sticky being detonated at your feet
one day i was using degreaser and panic atack and someone said to me "the old meta,you have my respect" this was the only good thing someone has ever said to me when i went pyro
@@lenakarlsson2404 At this point for me, the only way to view the Scorch Shot positively is from a perspective at which the user is being disadvantaged.
@@mikethegoo yes , the weapon mannmelter,which was served as a niche alternative for airblast, has became the absolute counter to scorch shot as his aoe extinguish and earning crits per burning player when doing that
I like the music but it kinda makes me feel like this video is going to cut away and become a creepypasta video since Silent Hill's ost is used all the time in those vids.
@@toniotrussardi8126 nah, this community in particular has took this practice to the entire new level so much that even the most deviant Keanuchungustards would tremble.
@@Anemeethious You still have to do work with the Cow Mangler. There's still a reload time, and a charge time to fire the one shot. You can probably do twice as much single target damage with the Scorch Shot in the same time you get to fire and reload the Cow Mangler.
Now I feel guilty about the time when the scorch shot was the only flare gun I had and I didn’t know it was so busted. I don’t even remember if I used it that often, but still
I remember WAY back when Meet the Pyro came out, and our Pyro main Ryusuta hated the Scorch Shot because it was underwhelming....my God how the game has changed.
"Such blatantly poor weapon design, that I don't even know how this thing made it through testing" Let me just get a laundry list of dogshit weapons right here...
As a flare gun pyro I'd say that the flare is really good for the puff and sting (aka a one on one fight) but the scorch just dominates at everything else
I don't agree. Scorch shot is better as spamming and dealing AoE damage, while Detonator is much better for mobility, and Flare gun and Manmelter(as long as you have crits stored) is better for single target burst damage. Shotgun is universal and quite good against enemy pyros. I find Scorch shot just inferior to specialized secondary weapons, but is easy to use and spammable and can be quite annoying for certain classes to deal with(unaware snipers, revved heavies).
It's more skill based than brain based, so kinda accurate. The items that are simpler are more reliable and efficient at their job, while gimmicks are usually worse and don't do as well.
@@auraguard0212 Because it's the easiest. Most unlocks crumble just because of the mere existence of random crits. The rest are not balanced for the game 12v12 (standard casual), and lose because of the impossibility of banal spam and aoe for many targets.
as a pyro main, pyro is literally not viable unless you run the scorch or the jetpack. Since they nerfed combo pyro there's literally no other way to be more useful than say, a demoman. I don't like having to use it, but it'd better than not playing pyro.
Even with things like the negativity bias, you really shouldn't have to neuter what you find fun, if you do find it fun. I personally believe that the huntsman, while it doesn't stack up to the scorch shot in any way, is an annoying braindead spam weapon that only ever ruins my fun, I don't wish it deleted from the game and its users banned from playing. Just, if you find using the scorch shot genuinely fun, knock yourself out. Just don't equip it only because you want to fuck over that sniper who can actually aim
@@matthewzakrzewski1797 Or you could respect yourself AND other players, and consider its annoyances when deciding whether or not to use it. There are different things in the game that I hate to deal with, so I stopped using them myself. Unless I'm getting spawn killed, or the last round our team was getting rolled-over.
i just started playing tf2, and im not really that good at the game, i usually switch to the scorch shot when i keep dying, sort of like a "you know what, fuck you" kind of weapon, i do realize its extremely toxic but getting dominated by the whole enemy team really gets to me sometimes
@@shetodeto3021 ah yes TF2 has this weird thing about it where everyone either has 1000+ hours in the game or less than 100. You’ll get there no worries
Wait what is the rhetorical counter to "why would I care about my enemies having fun?". Why on Earth would I care about the god-like sniper on the other team? Why should I be instantly killed upon peaking out of anywhere to just think "well at least he's having fun!"
tbh i try to use the scorch shot as a tool of "messing around" basically i dont try to hit at all but i actually do when i hit snipers because "insta-kill infinite range hitscan" is hard to counter unless you use it, mostly because "switch to sniper to be assaulted by scouts and soldiers since they assault you" is a thing i have happen often lol
People exaggerate how annoying the scorch shot is to fight. Literally every class has broken weapons that overshadow the others yet competetive tryhards seethe endlessly about a little handcannon because having to actually dodge a projectile or position themselves better is too much of a foreign concept for those egotistical jackasses to comprehend.
@Coolie_O Exactly, the scorch shot has a faster projectile speed than the DIRECT HIT while also having a way bigger splash radius. It’s literally fucking impossible to dodge unless you’re a scout or the flare explodes far enough behind you.
It’s not an upgraded rocket launcher by any means; it replaces instant damage with damage over time, which you can remove and heal from. Unless your entire team is in fireball formation for some reason, it will not do as much damage as an actual rocket launcher. I do agree that to emphasise this point, the direct damage from the flare should be further reduced to, say, 30% of stock flare, but keep all of the other effects. Now you have a weapon that is specialised for harassing people, without having it outright kill things.
sorry that your replies was override by a jackassk called uber d who probably didn't watch the video, but I respect that. as long as you're only using a weapon to counter another weapon that's unfair to fight against, you could be using the valve rocket launcher for all I care
I absolutely agree with the statistics and your point that the Scorch Shot is broken. There are no ACTUAL drawbacks to using it, and it ends up being a mini rocket launcher. However, I think the delivery of this video hinders your argument. Being clearly irritated and calling scorch shot users offensive names makes your argument seem like it comes from a place of finding a certain aspect of the game annoying, and less like a collected list of things that make the weapon broken. I completely agree with your argument, but I think you would get less people saying “ur just salty lmao” with a different presentation.
@@priestoffern1608 But Machina can just pierce through 4 people. And if we exclude hitscan weapons then most impactful projectiles will be Huntsman arrows and Crusader's crossbow syringe.
@@pupkins000 However, if you line up in a line and see a machina sniper, your basically asking for it; you don't even have to hit someone with the scorch shit; just spam the ground in the middle of a group
@@TheDarkCatYT Isn't it what rocket launchers, grenade launchers, sticky launchers and Detonator more effectively do? No one complains about them. Scorch shot is easier to use, more spammable and novice friendly and potentially can do more damage than Detonator if you caught multiple people in its AoE and bounce, but it doesn't make it superior to other, specialised pyro secondaries and especially to other AoE weapons.
@@pupkins000 that's the issue; the scorch shit is super fast, easy to spam, and requires zero skill. Ontop of doing damage it does maximum afterburn. Also with like a grenade launcher, it rolls if your shot misses. The scorch shit can hit even if you don't hit someone. The fact that it's so spammable with zero skill is the issue in the first place
It really isn't incorrect though. Sniper has a counter for his two main counters: spies and enemy snipers. I wouldn't take a sniper main's word on another of his counters being "broken."
@@captaincanti It IS broken though. Using the scorch shot on an enemy sniper is effectively removing sniper’s main class function for literally no downsides due to the way flinch works. It’s comparable to the way the old pomson was where it completely shut down spies and medics. Basically, there shouldn’t be a weapon that essentially tells the other player to pick another class or uninstall the video game, it’s complete bullshit. As much as I hate the Danger Shield it’s literally the only way to deal with this annoying piece of shit.
@@sheacorduroy5565 Snipers can make an entire enemy team have to play around them due to being able to one shot literally anyone at any given moment. Why shouldn't there be classes and weapon that snipers have to play around? You shouldn't have to go demo or scout constantly just to stop some asshole with good aim from wiping your team.
I feel like the scorch shot wouldn't be so hated if it could just pick a lane: if it wants to lock down a radius, reduce damage and/or afterburn while removing the bouncing flare If it wants to be able to hit targets twice, it should reduce the radius This is coming from a huge scorch shot fan
I dont care enough to find it again but someone made an awesome video of using the scorch shot creatively. A lot of the stuff only was possible with the bounce, but still I would leave it to suffer in a moist, mold filled barrel of vinegar in its current state.
actually, if it wants to pick the lane of area control, the bouncing flare would not be a bad thing (as long as the initial hit has greatly reduced damage, and the bouncing flare does even less). It’d be a unique thing that increases area denial.
@@nathangoodwin8733 Braindead WM1 pyro mains claiming that FSOAS' points are invalidated by him being a sniper main, and grasping at straws trying to justify their use of the scorch shot.
@@numbersstationsarchive194 But he overestimates the impact it has on games. It has not once ever been a major problem in any of the games I've played. Its more of a annoying weapon that bugs you.
Not gana lie I used to use the scorchshot then I realized how off my aim was with my flare gun, sniper, and even pipes. When I started to use the flare again it all went back to normal and I started having fun
With the degreaser, flare gun and the Axtinguisher You feel like you are playing a Devil may cry level when you manage to do all sorts of flashy stuff with combos.
Once I was a lonely young sniper loitering at the other end of the map. After 100 unchecked potshots ( 5 headshots :-) )this flaming ball suddenly hit me in the face. My body started shaking, I was burning from head to toe! The impudence! How dare this no-face monster spoil my fun. I was furious. And my anger has only grown stronger with time. I will raise an army of the outraged to get you erased. Begone FLAMEBOY.
From the wiki: "Flare guns and burning arrows apply 7.5 [15 ticks] seconds of afterburn... Additional hits from these weapons will restart the duration of the afterburn." In your video: 20 initial damage, 4 damage from first afterburn tick, 26 damage from mini-crit flare drop explosion. Followed by 19 (???) ticks of afterburn for an additional 76 damage, which should be impossible from a single scorch shot hit. The weapon is currently bugged and is stacking it afterburn instead of resetting it. That's the only reason it can one-shot a light class.
@@endangeredspycrab1932 then don't show them any mercy either, this means they are relying on a bot to win the match, instead of their own ability to play.
After watching this video and learning more about the Detonator, my performance has increased so much when I managed to get the detonation time right, so thanks Fish! Finally found my TF2 weapon!
@@techedbirb6663 Yes, they totally do. Spies are a pain in the ass for everyone and their mother. And snipers tend to be just as irritating. Even if I do like Sniper as a character Especially with all the sniper bots that keep flooding servers and ruin the fun for everyone. So yeah, I’m totally fine with spamming the fuck out of the Scorch Shot just to single out the snipers and spies 😏😉😜
"It's just W+m1 without the W, I just want the Scorch Shot to be fun to use and fun to fight" My guy just summarised why Sniper is an Anti fun class shortly after saying he's a Sniper main
Dress your sniper up as an archer, equip the huntsman, cozy camper, and whatever melee to be on you way to have a fun time as sniper and fun for enemies to fight. As a pyro I love seeing a huntsman sniper because that means I get to practice reflecting the arrows, and if I die I feel like it was more fair.
@@meepic2553 having the scorch shot actually be lethal requires it to be a direct hit and to have the afterburn not negated or diminished. Otherwise it's mostly an annoyance. The 2nd shot can be easily avoided as long as you aren't a heavy or a sniper with tunnel vision. I'm not saying the scorch shot shouldn't get nerfed, it definitely should when you compare it to the other flares, but it is hardly as bad as they are making it out to be. Oh and there are those body shotting snipers that will never go for the headshot but just repeatedly aiming for any part of your body to get that 50 damage per shot.
Weirdly enough I never really minded the Scorch Shot. I don't use it myself, but I've never been actively bothered by it like everyone else seems to have. Odd.
As someone who went from using the scorch shot to using the shotgun I have one thing to say: I used it so much almost completely out of how good it felt to use (and also how dope it looks) It was always satisfying to see that thing bounce off of enemies and whatnot But i switched to shotgun cause i learned how much less useless pyro feels when he has that gun instead It's satisfying to bounce a flare and ignite people, but nowadays i've come to find finishing off a fleeing COWARD with a shotgun is much more enjoyable, than any other secondary Edit: (note, i went on a bit of a rant..) Okay why'd you have to go and say it counters snipers so well Fuck, i hate snipers so much and now i _want_ to use it just to ruin their day for ruining mine Dammit dammit dammit You have no idea how frustrating it is when a good sniper shows up I suck at sniper, and every single fucking time a good sniper does appear, i have to play the game drastically different Avoiding ALL the sightlines i might get shot from, and playing that way is just not fun at all It feels like my access to 66% of the map just got cut off, and trying to deal with the sniper accomplishes nothing but further frustrating me Cause they've usually got a team around them and there's no counter to sniper except being better than them at their own job And now that you've said that, and now that i'm thinking about it I think i'll go back to using it when ever a good sniper shows up, sorry pal, but now i have a way to return the frustration they deliver
Also, if i were to redesign the Scorch Shot I'd split it into two guns One that bounces, and one that explodes Not gonna bother going further with this idea, you can figure out for yourself what that might imply Also-also 90% certain there's no stunlock It's just the flare knocking players into the air Also, your fix doesn't seem to change much, i reckon it can still become annoying easily
@@spartanwar1185 Wouldn't even really have to split it. Primary fire bounces, secondary fire explodes. Uses the same ammo pool for both. That gives the Pyro a way to still use the Scorch Shot without it being quite as directly powerful, because they have to choose "Do I want a bouncing flare or do I want an exploding flare?" I mean, I stopped playing TF2 right around the time the Scorch Shot came out, so I'm a bit out of date on what it's like. My two main Pyro loadouts were fairly simple, but I thought they were fun. Backburner, Manmelter, Sharpened Volcano Fragment. Fairly straightforward Ambush Pyro. Backburner does a lot of damage from behind, great for catching people off-guard. Manmelter lets me extinguish my team without expending too much fuel for my flamethrower. Sharpened Volcano Fragment because 1: it's embarrassing to die to it, and 2: I've gotten a few kills off of the afterburn because people thought they could tank one melee hit, only to find out that, nope, they were just low enough for the afterburn to get them. Stock Flamethrower, Detonator, Sharpened Volcano Fragment. Fairly straightforward Attack Pyro. Stock Flamethrower because of the better airblast. Detonator for being obnoxious at choke points with detonated flares. SVF because of the same reasons mentioned above. Sometimes I'd mix things up a bit and go with the Detonator and Backburner together. Brutal amounts of damage, but no real ability to help the team because, well, I'm then a Pyro who never extinguishes teammates. Alternatively, Stock Flame + Manmelter was a good combo, my go to for flare-spamming a choke point. Alt fire to extinguish teammates on both weapons, letting me be helpful, all while also letting me chuck infinite flares at my enemies.
@@DakalaShadeWhy have 2 weapons? If you want to choose, make it commital. Make 2 weapons, one with a bouncing flare and knockback on only burning opponents, the other with splash damage. Call the other one the he'll raiser or something.
Why you so mad about snipers just get someone to go spy or scout and tell their o my job is to keep that sniper dead Someone: well but sniper can use the razo- SPY HAS AN GUN more specifically the ambassador If the spy knows how to fool people with disguises he can get close enough to a sniper to do an max damage headshot followed by an bodyshot and the only way the enemy team can stop you is if the 1 shot you between the shots wich very few can do The sly can also use the dead ringer to not die and keep killing the sniper util he changes classes to pyro I did this like 5 times already and the sniper always gone pyro right after and I just change back to engi
Well, just to play devil's advocate, using the flare gun exclusively deprives it of its most advantageous use as you said yourself. The flare gun is best as a finisher, as you said. If we wanted to make a more accurate comparison, you'd instead need to play pyro normally with both flare guns. Your methodology simply isn't good here. Ignoring the bullshit associated with the Scorch Shot, a flare gun that is better as a standalone implement but worse as a finisher isn't an inherently bad idea. As for light classes, let's look at some of them and what they can do about the one-shot problem. Scouts: Can very easily run to spawn, get to a dispenser, or run far enough to find a medkit. They are also unlikely to get hit directly with a scorch shot flare since they are the most mobile class in the game. Honestly, its their fault if they die. Snipers: Get the longest time to avoid it out of everyone if they're playing right, also have things like the Cozy Camper and Jarate. Also probably closest to a dispenser or supply closet. Spys: Dead Ringer, Spycicle, or just cloak with the invisiwatch. Cloaking decreases status effect times substantially, afterburn included. Engineer: Shouldn't you be near your dispenser anyway? All of these classes have a weapon or something they can do to deal with it. The problem with the scorch shot isn't so much it's damage output, its the fact its fucking annoying.
I intended to run the same test while using both flare guns as well as a flamethrower, and potentially even the same thing with the Scorch Shot and Phlog for an added bonus, but it would have delayed this video even more. Trust me, I wanted better data, more rounds especially and more variables, but I can't spend all my time working on one video.
Oh no I get that, I was sure there was some reason you didn't. However, I felt it would have been prudent to point it out. I don't like the state the Scorch Shot is in either. I think it has an intended use of being a more stand-alone flare gun, but it simply does too much. It needs some fundamental changes to put it in a good state.
After watching this, I'm gonna put my flare gun in the closet and start using the scorched shot. Thank you for opening my eyes to such an amazing weapon!
honestly, simply removing the bouncing double-hit mechanic and keeping the radius when hitting a wall or ground would be nice, even if it would stay op to farm your phlog, this is the only problem to me, you should not be able to one-shot anyone with a single flare shot.
that would just be a worse detonator. also hitting the same person twice with the same shot is never in the users control; only happens if the enemy stays still the whole time.
Ehhhh, you have to get super lucky to one shot a light class with a flare. Compared to a soldier, whose primary weapon gives him the best mobility in the game, and if you take the direct hit onetaps light classes instantly with no chance of not dying just because you got hit, while having a better fire rate, the scorch shot is annoying for spam, but not much else
Pro tip: If you don't want people using an overpowered weapon, making a video explaining why it's so overpowered and then demonising them for using it probably isn't the best way to go.
I was playing on a casual server once and was using the regular flare gun. I set a man on fire with my flamethrower, threw him back against a wall with the airblast, then hit him directly with the flare gun for a perfect crit combo, killing him almost instantly. "Was that a scorch shot?" 'No' "Good man." That sole interaction brought me to *scrap* my only scorch shot, for it was right there that I understood just how sick of scorch shots many people were.
12:38 False. I've used the scorch shot for 1.3k hours and I had no idea The Scorch Shot was this disgustingly broken. The first time I ever heard someone complain about it was when I first found your channel. The reason? I'm not one who has ever spent that much time looking at weapons' stats with a super keen eye. I started using the scorch shot because I tried the other flare guns and didn't particularly enjoy using the regular or the detonator. I consciously made the decision to use the option that's "less but more reliable damage" because I am more comfortable utilizing splash damage than gravitating toward maximizing damage output. It's the same reason I use the Liberty Launcher. I assure you, for many of us it was a playstyle decision rather than a blatant troll decision. I spent years of my life actively avoiding EVER TOUCHING the phlog because I wanted to avoid being the absolute asshole you seem to be calling me NOW. I have since started using other flare guns because I care about this same stigma. I appreciate everything you do to break down TF2 weapons and this video is no different. In fact, I appreciate this one potentially even more than any other because it opens my eyes to why this weapon is balanced so unfairly. I just wish that you took a step back in terms of how aggressive you were about it because I don't think most of the people that use it are the horrible monsters you make them out to be.
Ditto, Fish kinda has a stick up his arse. People aren’t villains for using a weapon in a game. Keep the ad hominems out of statistical gameplay analysis.
@@ToxicBastard That’s a dumb excuse. If you said to play community servers you would have a point, but some people like to play casually while not being fucked over by randomness.
i don't hate the scorch shot at all in fact i love it when the other team pyro start to spamming it since that mean i can pull out the manmelter hold down right mouse and get 18 free crits ez counter
Yeah but that’s kind of the problem 1. It’s basically saying fuck you for not playing manmelter pyro 2. If you end up killing the scorch shot pyro with your “well deserved” crits, you now have many more crits to destroy the enemy team.
@@arbitrary_thoughts Its an instant vibecheck button for anyone that dares to go close to a pyro, even if he is out of gas for his flamethrower. Love to use the thing.
I recommend comboing it with the dragon’s fury, it absolutely destroys anyone in range of it since the dragon’s fury has more range than a normal flamethrower, and has high dps. Then when you combo it with the panic attack as a finisher, it’s brutally satisfying.
@@jakman8515 I mean you could just use it as a tool more than a weapon, kinda like Tide Turner Demoknights and Sticky Jumper Demos, Detonator can be really insane sometimes
if the scorch shot does get reworked i hope it keeps the stun/knockback, since i use that to combo with the dragon's fury a ton and it lets me pull off some sick juggles. i like the idea of making it a combo tool/pseudo airblast and less mindless to spam
Losing the AOE and the second explosion would make it a good item for inflicting stuns without being massively annoying as it currently is, and makes it take a distinct niche from the flare gun and detonator, of which it is the best of both
the stun is super bullshit and easily the most unfun part about it. at least airblast sends you somewhere, but this piece of shit stops you in your tracks as you're running away and the bastard spamming it has the time to stun you a second time and completely fuck you over this is not okay
@@somerandomgamer8504 I keep trying to reply to this but it won't let me so this time in short. yes I prefer soldiers doing that, it allows for attempts at surfs. It's simple knockback yes the scorch shot still sucks way more. It's straight up immobilisation, like if you had a weapon entirely designed around paralysing people *cough* Sandman, Natascha
I don't know if Imma gonna feel insulted, complimented, satisfied, divisive or whatever the case since I'm a pyro-main... Imma leave this comment here and edited after watching the video to give my thoughts and opinions. The edit after the video: First of all, nice video Mr Fish, it is nice to see you giving us entertainment and exposing your arguments in a calm way. I've maimed pyro for over a 1000+ more or less so Imma give my arguments and opinions by the lenses of a default/usual Pyro main The idea of the SCS (imma abbreviate the Scorch Shot like that in this comment) was not bad yet, like you said, it has so many uses that immediately ruins any chance for new players to learn other ropes, like reflecting projectiles o dismantling sticky traps. However, I appreciate the fact that the SCS can deal really well in case of spawcamp by Demo and sticky spamming certain points, like the same choke point. The knocback must be (In my opinion) something that only happens when you hit someone directly - Not stun lock, but push them away to trow off their positioning, as well this thing need to be turned down on the splash damage and the afterburn - Oh! And don't let the fire of flares count building MMMPH. Even if they only put this on the SCS, they just took a lot of reasons to use it in the first place Again, the main reason the SCS is awful is because in its current state creates bad habits, even in your video you could a show the potential of SCS by using it a a flare to scare big groups and made them divide, yet a lot of the footage is just "Look, SCS it's only to spam at people even when the flamethrower could achieve a faster kill" but, You know what's the most amazing and accurate thing of the SCS? The horrible people that abuse it. One thing is new players, since them can overcome bad habits and discover the wonders of the other flares or the reliability of the good old shotgun - Even the partial mobility of the jetpack and even the gas passer, which you can use as an assist or phycological tool to scare people away. As pyro, your kills must be mostly people that overextended and/or are out of position/flanking, even to play at the advantages of enclosed environments. While new players can discover these facts, as****es pyros (the main reason maining pyro gives a bad name to a lot of us... Or the furry reason but that another topic) already knows some if not all of this information, yet in the crusade to ruin fun the SCS gives them a tool due the unbalanced details. Paired with the horrible Phlog, a stale tactic (W+M1) and even a pocket and you have a fever for unfun games and newer pyro mains in formation to see them wanted to replicate their "style", either by going full on rage or at least, to only use the SCS Anyways, any comments or opinions are well received and thanks for giving me some of your time, dear reader :) ❤
@@NeonWasInUse What K hate about the Scorch Shot is that same reason. Give no other reason for new players to try other flares and get stuck into that thing, making them just rely on spamming it and not even aiming it. Personally, just by taking away the fact that can knock back you if you don't get hit directly makes it more bearable But even more personally, I still crave for a nerf on the phlog. That sh¡t is really *REALLY* unfun to play against in some cases
@@metalslug55516 I think the Phlog is balanced imo It requires Pyro to be strategic about when he uses his flares as he's open to getting completely DESTROYED by classes you'd normally counter until you can build your crits like Soldier Demoman Demoknight on top of your current weakness to Heavies, Engineers, and Snipers. even once you do build up crits, most classes can easily just stay out of your range. It Makes Pyro play a much more hit and run based playstyle until you can build those crits, and it's actually surprisingly fun! You should try it sometime! Or you could just use the Scorch Shot, throw all your dignity into the bin and completely invalidate any real skill involved in using the Phlog the Phlog doesn't give the Phlog a bad name, the Scorch Shot does.
@@NeonWasInUse The main Nerf I want in the Phlog is either a Mini crit boost instead of crit (you can make the MMMPH meter requiere less damage if you want) which will kind of destroy the gun, just like what happened to the Reserve Shooter. Still viable in some cases but mostly left behind. Either that *OR* just make that afterburn due to flares does not count or at least gives half the amount of charge required. This would destroy the spammers and still leave the Phlog with the playstyle that had in mind when they made it, as well it keeps the option to kill pyro by staying away without still being a source for future fritz. This gives you the option to run away as a light class or to go "F**k it" as a heavy class and kill the pyro - and medium classes like demo, other pyros and even gunslinger engines have both options This also gives the pyro the option to think "Should I risk it with my flamethrower without airblast and charge even further my MMMPH or retreat with all the charge I have, resupply and try again?"
Requirements for fighting Pyro as Scout: Maneuvering around the pyro, staying out of flamethrower range, hitting shots while juking potential flare shots Requirements for fighting Scout as Pyro: Hit 2 Scorch Shot splashes.
not really; if you land 2 scorch shot splashes one after the other, you die and the scout goes to find a health pack. Much better to use the flamethrower, or a shotgun if you are confident in your aim. Scouts are not supposed to run at pyro anyway; pistol shooting is safer, and if they feel lucky they can try and meatshot them after landing some initial hits. It’s the same concept as scouts vs sentries, pyros vs heavies, and everyone vs snipers on an open map.
Requirements for fighting Pyro as Scout: Bait an airblast/scorch shot so you can double-meatshot them into oblivion Requirements for fighting Scout as Pyro: Maneuver around corners and get the drop so they can't double-meatshot you into oblivion This is ofc assuming the scout has > 200 hrs, as per the scout's creed of jackasses
The value of Scorch Shot is often overly dramatized, at best it's a great utility tool but instant damage will always remain king, reason why Pyro is lacking compared to his fellow attackers Scout and Soldier.
Honestly the Scorch Shot is the defensive Pyro's weapon of choice. Destroys stickies, reveals spies, is one of the only weapons in the game that can deal with snipers, and can help stop a push from happening.
The problem is that pyros shouldn’t be dealing with snipers, you should be dealing with your job of dealing with spies. Snipers should be dealing with snipers. Each class has a role for a reason. It’s a team based game.
@@Wondereggguy, so the good sniper should go fuck himself then? He shouldn’t play the game because he developed the skills after hundreds of hours of playing? Do you understand how asinine that thought process is? A good player in any class is debilitating. A good spy could cripple an entire team by haunting the engineer and back stabbing essential team members, a good engineer can hold a choke point with a well built nest, a good medic can keep his entire team from dying by managing healing and the Uber economy of a game. Good players do their jobs well. If good players are being put against bad players, that’s not a gameplay balance issue, that’s a matchmaking issue. A good player will, and should, always stomp a bad player in an FPS. Because they are better at the game. That’s literally a no brainer.
@@Wondereggguy also “there’s not much you can do”? Uh spy is a thing. If your team comp can’t have a good sniper or good spy, the counters to a class, then yes you’re going to have a bad time. That’s like saying I can only play paper in Rock Paper Scissors and keep losing to scissors. Yes. If your team doesn’t use the well established counter classes, you will get destroyed by that class. That’s how the game works. If you keep running pyros into an engie nest like it’s D-day, you’re never going to get anywhere.
@@starscream8989 why do you like it? Not judgmental, I legitimately want to know why because I don't remember what it does. And the official video demonstrating the manmelter is from like 4-5 years ago I think.
treat others how you would like to be treated. sure the scorch shot is very fun to use for new players but it is horrible to fight against and makes the game not worth playing if the enemy spams it
![[TF2] The Scorch Shot Is EVIL](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
