[TF2] Trickstabbing is Cheating 

stabby stabby just heard about this video on stream and immediately laughed and said "that guy sounds like he has no idea what hes talking about" lmfao

Once Upon Times 180 degrees Side Stabbing Late 2000's Team Fortress 2 Now these days 160 Degrees.

I disagree with the idea that trickstabs are cheating. In fact trickstab obsessed dead ringer spies are some of the easiest players to counter, by simply not getting into trickstab range. (Though cl_interp 5 and using lag hacks ARE cheating) But I do agree that trickstabs are over-hyped. Like I said, they’re incredibly counterable if it’s your only trick and people see it coming. I say trickstabs are the LAST thing you should learn as spy, so you don’t become overly reliant on them. I myself don’t trickstab often, and tend to use it as a wild card (though I use trickstab methods on people who fall for my disguises), you don’t NEED trickstabs to be a good/great spy, you can top score without them. Especially at range because you know... SPY HAS A GUN I tend to kill pyros way more with the gun than with trickstabs, because it’s much more reliable. Data travel time is always going to be a factor, unless all players somehow have a single digit in ping, you just can’t deal with that, it’s how online games work.

im gonna try to explain whats wrong with this take without it being aggressive back in 2009 with the scout update, valve originally reduced the backstab radius from 180 degrees to 160 degrees (while also removing the infamous "delayed" backstab swing spy had on launch in 2007. This change was designed with the same purpose in mind that this video has: spy isnt supposed to be running around trickstabbing, and it is potentially confusing to newer players to get backstabbed from what looks like the front. However, within a matter of weeks, this change was immediately reversed. The TF2 community at large, spy main or not, agreed that the change was not a good one at all, as surprise surprise, fixing a network related issue by changing something with the games consistent balance, does not infact affect the network related issue: "facestabs" were just as common as they were with the previous (and current) hitbox, and along side it? A terrible scenario where a spy would walk up behind a sniper standing still, and upon knifing his back, would be given a butterknife, despite the scenario being the totally intentional one, where a spy simply walked up behind someone and clicked for a backstab, and not being on the screen of the other player. Players could also shake their mouse rapidly, resulting in the area of their back that didnt count becoming disjointed, allowing for them to essentially have a permanent razorback, and one that valve themselves scoffed at in the blog post reverting the change: "players running around the map with their back against the wall to exploit the smaller stab hitbox". With that out of the way, it seems like you and others have claimed that spy is "more than just trickstabs". This is true, spy in high levels of play is almost entirely focused on shooting with his revolver, as it is reliable and effective against all players, regardless of skill. The problem is, trickstabbing itself not being spies main tool against players to defend himself, just makes the whole argument of this whole video pointless, because why nerf normal backstabs, something established to have been a bad idea that would not work already, in attempt to remove something that isnt really a big enough issue to be considered a "balance" factor on the class? There isnt one. Backstabs, and the backstab hitbox, on its own, is a well balanced mechanic, that offers a clear "to do list" for both players: the spy should attempt to be behind the player, indicated by his knife raising, and the player against the spy, to check their teammates, and to turn around, making sure a spy is always on their screen: the backstab hitbox allows this scenario to work completely perfectly fine, with 0 issues. What results in the janky facestabs and failstabs (by the way, what about those? is the other player cheating if the spy gets a butterknife against a players back for the same exact reason?) is something that is an unavoidable, yet iconic issue with online gaming as a whole: lag. Even now in 2023, we still dont have perfectly lined up LAN level connection, and we sure as hell didnt have it when this game was put together in '07. To put my own stance at the end here, for the year it came out and as someone whos been playing spy since then? Its pretty good for its time, and after seeing the evolution of "trickstabs" since stabby stabby first coined the term early in the games life span, it, as well as spy himself, are just part of tf2, and trying to tamper with something that valve got the best deal with long ago, just doesnt work, and most balance suggestions regarding such age old strategies, have almost always already been discussed and the case has already been closed, leaving us with the best case scenario we will ever really have with this game regarding backstabs.

"Let's Nerf the worst class in the game" - TF2 Players

Nerfing spy won't work, the way multiplayer lag works cannot make this right

Teammate when sees a tryhard trickstaber: Yeah i'm gonna melee him

All spy’s right now:L+No maidens+Cope+ sethee+ mald+didn’t ask+who cares+ get owned

Spy used to have a Knife raise time when the game came out. They removed it in 2009 for the reason of fixing facestabs. They also reduced the backstab hitbox at the same time. But that was reverted because it just made it harder to get actual backstabs. While having the knife raise time make a comeback sounds nice on paper, I think it would ultimately do very little, at best it might prevent abuse, until trickstabbers find the new way to do it. Melee hitreg sucks in general in this game and since that has never been fixed, I doubt trickstabs will.

Valve actually tried that hitbox nerf but reverted it back

Note: The title is a clickbait, what they mean to say is "trickstabbing mostly relies on network" which from my experience is true, the spy changes direction and runs behind you and just as that motion reaches your monitor the server has received the spy's input to hit your back. I don't exactly hate the spy as a class, I hate that the community has transformed its main function into exploiting hardware or suicide diving

words from heavy: "keep crying, babies!"

Sounds like the biggest amount of skill issue I've ever heard.

Yeah, I've no idea why the backstab radius is so big to begin with, I feel the third solution might be the best so people will, yknow, play Spy as intended. I've seen people wipe half a team as spy by doing it as intended, which requires good placement, acting, and patience. Yes, acting, there's a way to make your disguises work effectively. There's actual spy tutorials out there that demonstrate this and you don't need janky trick stabs. Also, Spy lag-abuse is incredibly common, lmao

Ah yes, let's nerf the already nerfed class even more

If valve is updating melee hitboxes, then they might as well port tf2 to source 2

Alright look, i can see where you’re coming from, and i want to provide constructive criticism instead of just insulting you (unlike other commenters…) Yes, server issues can make some seemingly impossible backstabs possible, and its not fair if a spy is abusing network settings to get an unfair advantage. But that’s all they are, server issues; they’re not **balance** issues. When you get headshot from around a corner, you dont blame the sniper. When you get melee’d by someone like 30 meters away, you dont blame the player. You would and should blame the server. these server issues aren’t intentional, and you shouldn’t nerf *actual* game mechanics to compensate. Its like playing basketball on a shitty concrete court in some tiny city block. When a player shoots a half court because the whole court is small and shitty, you dont ask that the player should just “shoot less farther,” its not the player’s fault the court is not up to standard, especially when they’ve been doing this for possibly 15 years. You fix the issue, not the game around it, and that’s up to Valve and modern technical limitations.

They already tried both of your suggestions before. When the game first launched, backstabbing had a wind-up. There was about a .5 second long animation that would play, with the actual damage tick coming when the knife was fully down. It led to a ton of whiffed backstabs because the enemy moved just slightly out of the way, and it was rightly removed to make the class less frustrating to play. They also tried narrowing the backstab hitbox once. I believe they reduced it from 180 degrees to 160 degrees, and it basically made anyone with their back against a wall completely immune to being backstabbed (Snipers especially). I think it was reverted within a week due to community complaint.

Great video man. I love to see talented people give their well explained opinions in this community. You've got great editing, an SFM representation of yourself, and informed opinions. Keep going and you'll establish yourself as a great TF2 content creator. And don't worry about the accent it just makes you stand out among the community.

Spy should use his revolver in situations where he gets caught, not the Source engine's weirdness.

this video was extremely well explained, and while personally overall i consider trickstabbing to just be a simple bug in tf2 players can take advantage of, but i would definitely consider it cheating if they abuse the "cl_interp" command to make trickstabs way easier and more consistent, which is just an unfair advantage to the spy, making them harder to take down (especially if they use the kunai + dr combo) but overall you did a fantastic job explaining everything! i havent seen something in tf2 explained so well in quite a while! keep up the good work!

Here’s a question I have though. If trickstabs take a lot of effort to get good at then shouldn’t people who get good at it be rewarded for it? Trickstabs weren’t intended, but neither was rocket jumping when it was first invented. I feel as though trickstabs should stay in because we already saw what happened when valve tried doing something about it back like 10 years ago.

This was really well done and I'm sure you'll go far in the future!

Sometimes when playing spy, _I saw the facstab_ I could see that the enemy was facing towards me, but the game counted it as a stab anyway

bro is ONTO NOTHINGGGGG 🗣️🗣️💯💯

Trickstabs aren't cheating, but they can be bullshit sometimes. Especially in cases when the spy somehow benefits from lag, or back when spies could abuse cl_interp commands. But trickstabs are part of the game, and we likely aren't getting balance changes anytime soon. We just learn to deal with them as best we can.

Rocket jumping is cheating because it ABUSE how the engine works and isn't told to the player Spy is already one of the worst class in the game with the only hard counter in the game It also removes some skill from the class. It's like arguing that soldier shouldn't be able to rocket jump. It's really dumb. Do we want this game like it's overwatch

trickstabbing is annoying but i would never consider it a cheater. just go pyro and airblast them

You watch trickstab compilations because you think they're really cool and you want to replicate them. I watch them to learn all the ways to avoid getting trickstabed for my next encounter of a spy main.

You're forgetting that for every bs facestab that happens due to lag, there's a clean, perfectly lined up backstab that didn't register for the same reason. The problem balances itself out

Sure getting trickstabbed feels shitty, but any mechanic with oversight is likely to get exploited. You could probably compare it to the Solider bhopping crits (i mean this as its an unintended feature that experienced players can use to their advantage). Yes it takes skill and timing, but so does trickstabbing to an extent. Same with anything relating to melee. If it's a client issue then it's always gonna feel like BS when on you're end they haven't even come near you.

Clicked out of curiosity, stuck around for the hilarity of the comments

Sometimes as spy I shake my mouse and m1 and it randomly backstabs people sometimes

You can always prevent headshots by staying out of sightlines, or briefly nullify them by using a high health class or bullet resistance. There is no way to prevent a trickstab, an interp spy does a suicide dive towards you and before their movement reaches your monitor the spy has registered a backstab with the server. Spy is in practical senses an invisible super sniper with this, standing anywhere ready to hit you with an instant kill bullet.

While Trickstabs as a whole can be a little bit annoying due to them not showing up correctly on one Players Screen I dont think that counts as cheating. Cheating in my opinion is using third party software in order to give yourself an advantage. And even then trickstabs are just not really good. The reason the Trickstab Frag Montages keep existing is because of 2 reasons: 1.People still trying to use Melee against a Spy 2.New Players Dont Melee a Spy. You have a Gun. You can walk backwards. Spy can stab you and kill you ... but what if he cant because theres 2 Rockets in his face and youre 20 Meters outside of his backstab range. The only class who really gets benefit out of meleeing Spies is Medic since the Übersaw rewards him for doing so. As for Demoknight ... hes basically the Ultimate Anti Trickstab class besides Pyro due to him just simply outranging Spy. If you decide to just shoot him in the face instead of Meleeing him theres quite frankly nothing he can do except run away or rely on his Revolver Aim. And new Players are new. They dont know the tricks Classes like Spy can pull so they obviously dont know how to react. This isnt just with Spy. New Players often dont know how to react against Market Gardening Soldiers or Trimping/Charging Demoknights. Trickstabing while it can be annoying is definitly not a cheat atleast in my opinion.

I don't think anything to do with animation timers should be touched, If the spy clicks when the backstab state is active, he should be accurately rewarded. Changing the backstab hammer unit range might be reasonable but idk. Call it manipulation of a janky engine, but I think labling more honest manipulation of that engine as 'cheating' where its built on investing time into practice and understanding is the wrong approach. Also, spy often gets caught out in the open when he walks up to an enemy to breath down their neck, clicks to stab, and as the backstab animation plays, the game registers it as a butter knife The best but highly unlikly fix would be optimizing the server data travel time to minimize differance between client side and server side connections, and putting in place measures to limit spys who deliberately change their interp to produce more coin flip situations. also make it so back hitboxes dound trail behind the player in a way where if they move backwards fast enough, the hitbox can be in front of them Spy is already the weakest class, and he suffers from inconsistancies just as much as anyone who plays against him. Not to imply that he needs a sometimes rng mechanic to function sometimes when he gets lucky, but I don't believe nerfing the weakest class because it's capable of a janky technique is the way to go, just that fixing the inconsistancies that aren't fun for either party would be better

I feel as though this is a problem of Source Engine lag compensation, not Spy himself. The idea is vaguely there, but poorly executed. And even with these “””fixes””” were added, the facestab problem would still exist due to ping lag compensation and ping differences. This would also vastly decrease Spy’s skill level, as now Spies don’t need to learn how to gain good movement and can only decloak. In casual where everyone’s practically braindead, this makes no difference, but against even semi-competent players it would make Spy even more useless then before. Sure, you could still try to backstab and do the usual, but if the team actually is smart and not your average casual team then you might as well go Sniper.

Ok, you heard the man. We need to remove very glitch from TF2, especially backstabbing. Because glitches = hacking. So that means no more rocket jumping. No more sentry jumping. No more air blast jumping. No more bee hopping. No more air strafing. None of that. Because those are all hacking. Thank you so much for marking this video to expose the disgusting TF2 players who abuse these methods and ruin the game.

The first idea you had to fix it was really interesting. Giving an actual third person knife raise animation as the Spy gets nearby would make it more visible, and I think this is a completely harmless change that doesn’t nerf anything. Trickstabbing itself isn’t overpowered though, there should be an instant backstab when the Spy is behind someone still.

Its tough, because in “fixing” trickstabs puts the spy into a situation where he can only play proactively, an example a spy walks up to a engi that just about to kill another player and the spy walks up to the engi for the stab but sudden the other player dies to the engi’s shotgun and the engi turns around, what does the spy do? Does he butter knife the engi to death for 40 dmg as the engi is able to react and shoot the spy, back up and flee or even beat the frenchie with a wrench (crit lol) then the spy is most certainly dead, the spy cant react, pulling out his gun out back up and try to take 3 at best 60 dmg shots verus engi’s two shogun shots. A spy would have little to no ability to react to a player suddenly turning around as a quick strafe to try and recover the stab would unlikely work, and if an engi walks forward swinging his wrench, a spy cant sidestep that get a kill, which would teach and engi that walking up to players to beat them with their wrench instead of backing up and shooting would be a better option I could go more but i think that spy having a reactive approach like a trick stab helps give spy’s a chance to not get caught( which lets be clear is very easy) and die instantly, is trickstabs a perfect thing now? Your video shows that it is flawed but its less a gameplay thing and more a server system and trying to fix a server problem with gameplay fixes i feel would create a spy with a lot less in his kit if he inevitably gets caught

problem: the game's hitreg is broken solution: nerf the spy

Bro played one match of degroot keep and wasn't standing for what happened to him. Edit: not that I fully misunderstand

3:50 : '8 year old method based on abusing game issues' im waiting for u to upload a video named 'is rocket and sticky jumping are a cheats?' since this mechanic was invented by accident

bro angered the weeaboos spy mains

why this korjezilla guy literally overdosing on copium in the comment reply section

Witnessing the footage in the beginning, it's disgusting. You could pretty much view this as exploiting. Back in the days in HL2 Deathmatch, people would tweak their latency settings so they'd become unpredictable to hit registration while in motion. This is pretty much abusing the mechanic of latency without tweaking anything. Your suggestions can definitely make these trickstabs less of a viable career path, pushing more for the intended playstyle of the Spy. 2:06 - hehe, that was neat

You just move away from the spy

While it does take skill to pull off, everybody hates being instakilled by a spy you're literally making eye contact with because he's still barely within your backstab hitbox on his screen.

I agree that trick stabs aren't "fair" because of the connection difference, but that doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Spy as a class is getting weaker because its primary function is to take advantage of a players failures, such as not catching the spy before he gets into your face. And as the game gets older the players get smarter and catch spies easier. Therefore by increasing the time it takes to stab you are nerfing the way they attack to hard. I do not like spy and it can feel unfair when trick stabbed, but the best way to counter it is to just kill him before he gets in range. Spy doesn't need a nerf, you just need to (for lack of better words) get good at the game and spot spy before he can get close.

What I just don't want in the game is me backing away from the spy and he still able to "backstab" me even if I am backing away and looking at him Honestly is frustrating the huge ammount of spies that think they are good at the game by abusing this game exploit and also by straight up increasing their ping/lag in order to not be hit and be able to confuse peoplr from where they really are and backstab them from 5 meters away

Why do people with little to no multiplayer game design and balancing experience want to fix or nerf everything? First "nerf sniper" then "nerf spy" what's the problem with people's mind? Can't you just enjoy the game as it is? This video screams that he got trickstabbed in a Casual game prior to this video so he decided to rant about something he probably shouldn't have

If you consider trickstabs to be cheating because of the way TF2 handles lag compensation, then headshots would be counted as cheating too. You can be fully behind a wall, but if you were not 0.2 seconds ago, the sniper could still headshot you. It's not cheating, it's simply knowing how the game works.

Im a bit late but i can feel all the spies defending their commitment to the worst class in tf2. Spy IS the weakest class in tf2 if 1. you turn around 2. if the team stays enough distance to not get trickstabbed. also, i saw a comment about no delay on sniper. playing sniper is unfair but not cheating and zestyjesus made a study on how quickly and therefore unfairly the instakill classes are

Skill issue?

TL:DR Why are you anywhere near that spy, every class has a ranged damage option to spychesk and kill spy’s with. Better question, why are you letting a spy get that close to you? A spy has lots of tells that give him away and anyone you suspect is a spy can be easily determined by shooting them. If you shoot them once, you should be able to land following shots. Land 4 good shots with the stock shotgun and that spy is toast. Now let’s look at some other situation where you are following a spy and you see he is running towards a corner, ramp, stairs, or any large open area without any of your pesky team mates around. Before he gets there a scout should be hitting him with a scattergun or pistol, a soldier should be hitting him with rockets or a shotgun, pyro is setting his ass on fire with any of his primaries and half of his secondaries, demoman has already turned that ramp into a bomb capable of rendering the whole team to chunks, heavy shouldn’t even be following instead revving and turning that spy to Swiss cheese, engineer honesty is fixing all his buildings and is calling for anyone else to go deal with the spy, medic SHOULD be hitting him with any ranged weapon he has but let’s be honest that 25% Uber is too good to pass up, sniper has already shot him (in the head if they are good/lucky) and the other spy is dealing with the exact same thing on the other side of the map.

I get the argument. However there is a major difference between getting unfairly killed and playing stupid. So what is playing stupid? Well let's look at the first two clips shown. In the first clip you are 1. Fighting a clearly competent spy capable of trickstabbing and dodging bullets. So you go to poke him, while he has 210 hp? 2. Now no matter what in this situation you will lose because you only have 125hp. 3. And even if you win, he is guaranteed to be using the dead ringer which means he'll leave as soon as he sees that he is losing. Outcome = You wasted your time as a spy to get keypicks fighting the class you are not supposed to fight while dying in the process. In the second clip you are 1. Keep chasing a spy while a medic and pyro appear to assist you with him. 2. You could've easily just stood back and peppered him with your trusty smg while the pyro and the medic chased him but decided to chase him anyway. 3. There are now 2 people blocking the medic's melees. 4. The spy seemed to be originally going for you. You must've been pretty effectively as a sniper. He will happily get himself killed as a pick class to kill you. Outcome = You died as the sniper to a spy that you were safe from just to maybe get a smg kill that you could've gotten anyway while staying safe. The spy wasn't even a threat to you after the pyro and medic appeared. The second clip was not even a trickstab which is tricking a player into showing their back. It was a circlestrafe which is based around using your movement and movement habits against you to backstab you. They tend to look even more questionable and require you to understand your own movement avoid them. Playing against a spy is like playing chess. You don't get awarded by following what the spy is doing. You get awarded by predicting what the spy will do. Just like in chess you seal your faith before you die. You made your mistake before the stab but it feels unfair because you got punished by a completely different thing than tracking the spy. Playing stupid. Everybody plays stupid sometimes and the longer the encounter lasts, the more likely this sometimes becomes.

As a Medic main, I disagree. Trickstabs make Spy a viable pick option instead of useless cannon fodder, and usually letting Spy get close to You means death either way. I like the video, but I still think trickstabs are not cheating, they are just like trickshots but melee.

I personally don't agree with the video, but the editing definitely was well done!

mr "Trimping should be patched and spy should be nerfed even further" has officially folded

All spy mains have kill aura.

It’s just a ping and network issue, if everyone had 1 ping and 0 interp (which will never be possible), trickstabs would look normal. That is the only issue, not hitboxes or anything else.

Waiting for spy mains, who will explain trickstabs is fair and not gonna be nerfed.

ok so by this logic players missing with hit scan weapons and it hitting anyway because client side favoring or players hitting people who ran behind walls for that same reason is “cheating” Also backstab hit boxes are fine as they are only with high ping is it an issue (100+ ping) because lag compensation. Either favor the spy and the spy gets to actually stab the back or favor the other player and deny a stab even though they technically got backstabbed. At the end of the day someone gets the short end so it might as well consistently be the client side for the sake of fairness.

trick stabs are like rocket jumping something you can learn to make you better and get more kill at a cost of your time and practice

i heared that most of these "facestabs" in game just becuse valve inted you to play on in 4:3 with 75 fov.Apply that to your face stab and its almost always a reasonable backstab. +only because the problem of laggy spies exist doesnt mean that spy ment to be nerfed. but he editing and sfm's was great by the way

Skill issue

As a Spy-main(beginner at trickstabbing) I do understand your opinions and possible fixes of that. BUT, let's not forget that Spy is the most Fixed class of all the time, I'd like to mention that Failstabs exists as well. Spy is an extremely weak glass-cannon, while other mercs can do something to become better, all the Spy can learn to become a Professional at his job - Backstab Hitboxes, Movement and variety of possible tricks to perform. Like, we all know what actual Spy's gameplay is useless against good players or those Heavy-mains that looking back every 2 seconds without a reason. Trickstabbing could make Spy an escape from dangerous situations. Like, we ain't got any Team Balance, so there's no class limit, everyone can just go Engineers, One Pybro and that's it - your team can do nothing against it(even with Über) while you struggling to sap all this stuff and not get caught by Pyro. It's not like I can't kill him, it's quite easy for me since I'm practicing Ambassador a lot, but trickstabs makes its perfect. Still, while all light classes could easily get their killstreak depending on their skill (Scout with his speed and mobility, Sniper is always on backlines, Engineer is mostly near their Sentry and team), Spy's life depending mostly on luck(a decent Spy I mean), Just tell me, what can you do against a Heavy that spotted you up close and already started to rew up his Minigun? Cloak away? Nope, too late and your silhouette will spot you. Dead Ringer? Maybe, but good Hevay-main won't let you rest, even if he has a large backstab hitbox. Shoot? DPS too low to kill him, unless he's on low health, but that's not likely for him. The only way to avoid being killed is trying to trickstab him or lure him into a trap(corner, box that you could trickstab him from, stairs and etc.) Melee Hitboxes are shit for every class, so first of all we need to change those. Edit: Thanks for reading this much, gentlemen.

Alternative title: How to nerf the nerfed (extra: No you do not need to learn trickstabs in order to get good goddamn it)

Самое базированное из всех видео, которые я когда либо видел! Со всеми твоими аргументами могу согласиться. Из-за этой механики Трикстабов шпион превращается не в скрытный класс, а в что-то подобие танка (Ненавижу комбо Dead Rinder+ Kunai). А если кто-то захочет сказать, что эта механика шпиону необходима, то хочу с вами не согласиться, так как шпион не должен зависеть от такой механики, по моему мнению. Спасибо за внимание!

Skill issue, also are you really trying to nerf the weakest class in the game already? I barely get trickstabbed ever, maybe because I enjoy spy myself, just learn how to move correctly

trickstabbing itself isnt cheating like not at all but some people increase their lag to basically be able to backstab someone infront of him

I think this video is amazing you done a great job! I really like the proposals you made towards fixing the facestab problem. I however think that it’s hard to argue that spy is the weakest class, I don’t think nerfing him would really be necessary. That said it is really annoying when it happens!

Room temp. IQ in this comment section

Keep the 180 radius, the HU units for rising the knife and any other shits possible not shown in this video... but the backburner and backscatter have the same radius instead the reduced 90º (? at least i guess is 90) Its the BACK isnt? So BACK it is! fair enough now, isnt? ooooh gonna cry? everything on pyro and scout is too op now? OoOoohh cry me a river! I NO-TI-CED the disguised spy, i'm doing a good job to keep myself facing him but naaah! all ok with this moronic mechanic let him facestab me a I.K ¬¬ and get even worse when counting ping on it, even if is just a lil variation is already enough to give a niiiiceee slice of advantage to let spy do it

my skill issue got removed

I think if you would have used the the word "Cheap" instead of "Cheating" you would have receive less hate because of the stigma the word Cheating has in tf2 community

1:38 1:39 1:40 NOPE! Nope! -Scout & Engineer Voice Line's.

using your logic i would then make sniper only do headshot damage when crit meter is fully loaded because quickscoping is a broken mechanic cuz valve intended for sniper to take his time to make his shot, in other words skill issue af

In all honesty I don’t think trickstabing is an exploit at all. Sometimes the spy may get lucky because of bs lag and hitboxes, but I don’t think it should be considered cheating and I don’t think that specific part of spy should be nerfed or fixed. Spy is already very weak against half of the classes in tf2. If you wanted to nerf spy, nerf the Diamondback or kunai. I feel like trickstabing more of a reward for prediction. if you say that trickstabing is a exploit, I suppose you could say the same for trimping. In all, spy should not be nerfed with hitboxes any more than he is is now. He’s a weak glass cannon and most classes on the same skill level as him will know that all you need is to start out of backstab range and watch your back. Spy is still mostly fine how he is. edit: before korjezilla channel comes and gives a copy pasted argument, do know that I am not interested in fighting with you, I have a life and want to live it, except that I have an opinion of my own and move on. Realize that you have nearly 200 comments on this channel, stop wasting your life arguing with people on the internet.

i think another issue spy has is when hes clearly behind an enemy, and it just doesnt count as a backstab?? like, i have been in many situations where spies got the backstab on me but it just didnt count? So i also think that there should be a small window where stabs from the front also count as backstabs if the spy has been on your back for long enough. and im saying that with spy as one of my less played classes

this is so well explained you just earned a sub

Dude tries to nerf the weakest and most nerfed class of the game 🤡

This is the guy who has 600 hours on sniper, and spy is one of his least classes. This entire video is obviously bias.

No offense but you seem (like many) are not veterans which is understandable, they really aren't around anymore. Trickstab tutorials have existed since the game started. To prove your point though, it was sort of thought as exploiting/abusing the system. There's tons of updates at the start of the game from valve dealing with it. But at the same time it was believed at least to players at the time I played with it Just ended up being some unique thing for spy. I always wondered if a TF3 became a thing, whether it would be fixed or it would be an intended class design. Also your idea of a delay with the knife raising existed at the start of the game but was removed as they were dealing with the issues.

The only issue here is latency of the server. You should still get to do trickstabs, but latency should be fixed so it doesn't look like a facestab.

Даaa так верно

Lag actually can often make it harder to get a trick stab for the same reason. You might lag for a second then get fragged by the enemy without knowing what happens. This also would make the kunai and big earner completely obsolete which removes a majority of spy players. I don't know if you're a spy player or not but this does nothing but make the class obsolete.

Do not let this be the hill you die on homie. This is such a crazy take. Why would you not just shoot the guy? you know, with your gun? It is so easy for most of the classes to make space away from the spy, the ones that can't should be punished for not anticipating that a spy would show up behind them. Also just to pull out the old 9th grade rhetoric class: I'm pretty sure the reason you gave for trick stabs being unfair is an appeal to nature fallacy. "Playing the game in an unintended way is bad...why? Because it just is, ok?" Trick stabbing takes a spy that can read and direct enemy movement. This is fair because the enemy player has the same core ability to influence how the spy has to play. if you whiff all your shots and get trick stabbed because you chose to stay in, or refused to leave MEELE RANGE WITH A FUCKING SPY, you deserve death. TL;DR get good, European.

Whatever. I'll just go ahead and shoot or melee the spy.

Your logic for fixing trickstabs is like reducing heavy's minigun spread because he shot you behind a wall. It's so easy to avoid trickstabs. Hell, even a good amount of fresh installs can avoid them. I think this issue just sheds light on where you may fall on the IQ bellcurve. 5000 hours and you're still dying to spies :/

Explanation or no explanation, a class where the outcome of an encounter is depended completely on there skill instead of mine is unfair, tis be the reason I dislike sniper as well

who let bro cook 💀💀💀

Trickstabs rely on exploitation of wonky game code and latency, this by definition is cheating. The fact spy cheat software works by artificially increasing the players ping to gain better access to the latency exploit should really tell you everything. Pro spies are essentialy players with enough game time to have practices utilizing the exploit to it's fullest.

we need to lower water bills or something because damn some of these people in the comments need showers

hopefully this video either gets deleted, or someone popular makes fun of it so that no mindless drones actually end up believing this 4 and a half minutes of seething over getting trickstabbed is actually relevant

I disagree with your methods. I'm a spy main, so I _am_ biased. However, please listen to what I have to say. First of all, your methods of explaining how backstab hit detection works is flawed. You gave the numbers 60 and 107.5 degrees - but what does that mean? They come from sigsegv's video (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gh5Fg5d_uBU.html), but you didn't even explain it well. The explanation for the first two conditions is true (you do have to be behind your opponent, and your opponent's centre of mass must be within the red sector you showed). However, the third condition isn't explained well. While the blue sector is technically _true,_ it isn't clear. The blue sector means your viewpoint must be in a direction within it. However, that makes little sense until you see sigsegv's video. Second, the first two methods would nerf spy into the ground. Even with the shortest time of 0.2 seconds, it would make spy so much harder to play. Many backstab kills aren't just cleanly approaching from the back and getting stabs - they're running at the opponent from the time, while trying to predict where the opponent will go (since the opponent will still be dodging incoming fire, which will also make backstabs harder, since backstabs are hitscan). Adding a delay of 0.2 seconds alongside the normal human reaction time of 0.2 seconds would make backstabs extremely difficult to get. You don't suggest adding a delay for snipers between seeing an opponent's head and being able to shoot them, so why do the same for spy? Your extended range of 72 hu is also just _wrong_ - spy moves at 320 hu/s, so in 0.2 seconds he moves 64 hu. If you wanted to account for this in the way you described, spy would have to have a range of 112 hu - does that sound balanced? It would make spy insanely powerful against opponents who don't look around, thanks to the huge range, but as soon as they _do_ inevitably turn around, the spy is fucked. The second method _was_ actually tried many years ago - the backstab sector was reduced from 180 degrees to 160. This was reverted literal days later because of how much the community (not even just spy mains I think) complained. The third method does sound plausable, on paper. But in practice, it would just make spy even more of a broken mess than it is already. Many trickstabs would fail, since they would be the trickstabs on the edge of actually being stabs. However, many more would succeed - even the example you showed in the video of a facestab was well behind the new sector you gave. Again, does this sound balanced? The problem of facestabs would still exist - almost nothing would change. However, it would make it significantly more frustrating for spies. 'Was that a failed trickstab or was it just the delay of the outer sector?' I think trying to address facestabs is a good thing. However, it just can't really be done. Lag will forever be a problem - you can't just magically make everyone have 5 ping. Either you screw over the spy that got a perfectly legitimate backstab on their screen, or you screw over the person who was looking almost directly at the spy for the whole time. There's no winning. The best that players can do is just learn the ways that spy is broken to avoid getting stabbed like that. And indeed, many have. Players just keep their distance from spies while strafing around them. This then gets into the territory of circlestrafing, which are entirely different stabs to trickstabs. (Incidentally, circlestrafing is simply just outstrafing your opponent as a spy, but it would still get screwed over by a delayed stab.) Sorry for the long comment. I'm willing to have a discussion about this though.

I usually find myself with teammates who don't know that the best way to fight a trickstabby spy is shooting them in their goddam face, instead of trying to melee them

I enjoyed playing tf2 a lot more before people starting trickstabbing more frequently

If you take away trickstabs, at least make normal stabs more consistent. So how about, make the backstab a projectile with short range (Like the back scatter), not a melee hit, and if it hits an enemy's back, it will instakill, this would take away backstabs when the opponent is not actually 100% in front of you or your crosshair, but at the same time making regular backstabs entirely consistent

this seems like a skill issue bruv nah nah nah, but seriously, if you take away trickstabs, even backstabs aren’t consistent. Yeah it can *feel* unfair but good players know how to combat a trickstab (but sometimes even turning around doesn’t work, simply due to latency issues or what of the sort.) So simply don’t put yourself in a situation where a spy can trickstab you.) of course there are things like circlestabs, which I agree can be super unfair. (You’re telling me now I have to look up too?) but I think cheating is taking it a bit too far, especially since backstabs can simply not register because of some lag bullshit or the game just refusing to work. (Which happens way too damn often.)