As a small person I don't want to be locked into rolling with other beginners only. I WILL get hurt by bigger beginners whereas I will generally be looked after by bigger experienced people. Jack should have been better looked after but the Gracie standards are NOT the benchmark we should be trying to emulate.
This is a good reminder to instructors: don't be negligent and break your students' knecks. Don't do things that will permanently harm your students and be mindful of their safety.
@Bulletproof For BJJ The instructor intentionally trapped the guys arm and intentionally rolled on top of the trapped head. Those are facts. I would encourage you to learn to learn more about how the court system works. The defense attorney asked questions to Rener. The defense also had their own bjj expert testify. The jury heard everything and made their decision. Rener was part of an overall court system. He didn't wave a magic wand and issue a guilty verdict. At my daughter's school, there's a long list of things a white belt can't do. I see no reason why black belts can't also have a long list of things not to do as well. I've learned from this experience that there's a lot of bjj people who don't give a shit about safety. Especially when reading Tom's IG page comments. Thanks for the video.
Time to watch the very recent video where Renner Gracie speaks directly to Tom De Blasio about this situation. There was indeed another expert -- for the defence. Another Gracie (one of Renner's cousins). Renner reads from the court transcript to clarify what he ACTUALLY said. It appears that he was NOT claiming Gracie University sets the standards. His transcript shows that he was answering questions saying something along the lines of, "there are no overarching industry standards; every Jiu Jitsu academy sets its own standards; in my academy, this is how we do things". So he WASN'T trying to set any standard for everyone in the industry. Also, he said something hugely relevant to the case... Apparently the waiver the white belt signed want with the paper it was written on. Apparently it was such a crap document that the judge ordered that the waiver could not be used in the case. In the chat, both Tom and Renner emphasise the point that academies need to drop everything and rush to a decent lawyer to ensure that their waivers are actually doing the correct job. It didn't sound as if Renner was doing a sales job at all. It sounds like he was answering specific questions based on his specific expertise, and that his answers were very much taken out of context. It's a really valuable chat to listen to. Classified things nicely for me.
@@bulletproofforbjjI’m just catching up on this. I think there’s something missed by the JJ community regarding legal standards in the US and how expert testimony works. I’ll give some context and note that you did ask these questions, but stated you didn’t have the answers. In the US, expert witnesses are well paid. They’re very difficult to find. Most people don’t want to be deposed or testify. His fee is actually low based upon the amount in controversy and how well know he is within the industry. There is no reason to conclude that Renner has a conflict of interest under US standards solely because he is a businessman. In fact, he must be in the industry to be qualified as an expert witness. Expert witnesses must be “qualified” by a judge in the US in order to testify. In order to be qualified, they must demonstrate that they have experience and knowledge. This might involve having an advanced degree, but it also always means you have decades of experience in the industry. You’re saying that there is only one witness. But the defense also had an expert witness and always has the ability to bring a “rebuttal” witness - for example, you could have been hired by the defense to testify along the lines of everything you both said in this podcast. I suspect that you didn’t realize that there were other experts in that case. If the jury believes one witness over another, that doesn’t mean that expert witness is automatically corrupt. Instead of saying he’s corrupt, you could just say that he’s wrong about the standard and his testimony regarding the move. Or that the jury listened to the wrong expert witness and should have sided with the defense’s experts. Then you can have a rich discussion regarding the way non-practitioners see the sport. To wrap - the defense had the opportunity to also present experts who agreed with your point of view - like Tom. You mention this at the end, but clearly didn’t understand the way the case worked or didn’t realize that more than one expert could testify.
Im a white belt in bjj (4stripes, 39 years old, 58kg, 1,73m) and from the beginning on i noticed negligent/careless/sloppy on the part of the instructor but also on some students. Thats in my opinion the nr1 reason why most people quit. This situation was an accident without mean intentions but it was negligent (it could easily been avoided). I dont know the way americans do their drivers licence. In Europe the instructors have a break pedal on their side too. If you are learning how to drive, you will make mistakes and the instructor has to be mentally and physically there to react in a proper way. Many times we have luck that nothing happend while rolling and we noticed that but that is pure luck/coincidence. In our art/sport we should take things more seriously and have more responsibility on the health of others.
I'm a white belt, 53 years old and 80 kg. I've had to roll with some overzealous young white belts and I always try to protect myself AT ALL TIMES. I've been scratched and left with scars, busted lip multiple times, wrenched neck, sore ribs etc etc. I wish some instructors would actually pay attention and control the action at times when it gets out of hand. I've seen a couple of black eyes when beginners go for the straight arm bar too. So much for the gentle art 😂
@@dariusrana8487 Yeah :) keep on rolling brother! Yes, protect yourself at all times is nr 1 rule and 1a dont do stuff you dont know exactly if its gone work out or not. I like to roll hard but not everytime. If im preparing for comp. yes every time but always under rule nr 1 and 1a
It was a bad rolling back take but it’s a freak accident in a combat martial art. I’m sure this dude signed a accident waiver. That truly could be any one of us on a stack pass , turtle sit out , flying armbar, takedown, crucifix etc necks could go at any minute
Just finished this podcast and I think even having an oversight rules body (IBJJF) wouldn’t guarantee standardization. Good gyms should know what are best safety practices. As a judoka, lower belts in my dojo don’t do tani otoshi. They also get more supervision during randori. The coaches need to use classes as teaching time not more personal training time. As a student, we have to vet the gym we want to train at for safety.
I dunno man, the commitment to the roll looked fucking dodgy considering he was so low on his back and had little chance of controlling the neck or upper body - My book it was negligence but up just a lowly white belt. Gutted for everyone involved - Take care on the mats everyone!
the plaintiffs lawyer chose an instructor that would support Greeners case. the defendant gets to do the same. This is not a Rener conspiracy. Reners not required to specify how bjj is taught in australia.
Renner spoke as if there were actually industry standards- which there are not. We have since found out no precedents were set as a result of the case.
@@bulletproofforbjj Yet you claim he was hired as an objective witness, which was not the case. It seems both commentators have no legal experience or knowledge and instead of judging based on the actual facts/transcripts they are basing their comments on 3rd hand comments made online by other who lack similar knowledge.
@@bulletproofforbjj There's actually a ton of video on the subject now. In this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xjLHO6sNPL8.html Rener reads from the court transcripts & apparently he describes the standard at "his gym" & mentioned that it may be different elsewhere. Having said that, if you were going to give an opinion on industry standard, you would pull from your own experience, that's what people do. Let me put it this way, if Rener described anything different that would NOT support the plaintiffs position, Greener's lawyer would have hired someone else that would.
If it would have been to white belts rolling, it could be considered to have been more of an accident. Given the fact that it was a black belt and his instructor, puts pretty much all the responsibility on the instructor. Even though Rener did give his biased opinion on the matter (that was he was paid for) his analysis of the incident was spot on. He could have been less business like in his communication, but I guess that's just his nature. Even though he expressed the way he thinks bjj should be taught, I don't think it will change the way bjj is practiced worldwide. Instructors have the responsibility of overseeing the safety everybody on the mat ànd especially if they're rolling with somebody way less experienced.
Anyone involved in a physical sport no matter what level of skill should be fully aware of the risks that go along with it, its an awful accident yes but there's no ill intent behind it... rhats like saying my brother could have sued his teammate because their knees connected during a hockey practice.... if you don't accept the possibility of potential injuries and focus on protecting yourself then you can't get mad when worst case happens....its a horrible story yeah but asking for more than 2 to 3 mil is delusional
Thanks for making this video. It's been a very heated topic. I appreciate both points of view. I do have to admit that Rener put out some very good information and explanations concerning the legality of this situation. He cleared up some misconceptions that I had. I also thought the video breakdown of the move was excellent. I do appreciate the argument concerning "what is the definition of jiu-jitsu ". I do think safety is the key and having a responsible governing body is key. Judo has already been through this by removing certain throws from competition due to data of injuries. Also in my dojo we stay away from certain moves that have a high probability of injury. I tend to like Renee's explanations but I do cringe at times with his sales pitch. But I do agree with some more systemic teaching for safety with the lower belts. IMHO Thanks FYI: Rener donated his check to a spinal cord injury charity. Just sayin
@Bulletproof For BJJ there was a video of a phone call between Rener and Tom Deblass. It really answered every question circling this topic on social media. Granted it's over an hour but if you really want clarity on this topic then definitely watch.
The case and Renner’s testimony does not have any precedent in the US judicial system. That’s not how expert witnesses work. He cannot be cited in other cases. He would have to testify again and Tom or you or someone else could be hired by the defense to testify and rebut that testimony.
Best quote of the pod "How you do anything is how you do everything. Who cares about integrity". Probably best not to trust the "expert" who was known for selling mail order blue belts through his "standardized Jiu Jitsu program".
Bjj basics and safety course would be a good move.. there's a lot of simple things we should know to start rolling safely and reduce injuries. Kind of like going to a motorbike learners course and realising how useful/important it is to run over that which may have been overlooked. Was surprised however that the black belt didnt own his mistake.. noone teaches what he did but we should educate them not to and what could be done differently. Seems fishy anyway, would be most likely Rener sold out. Hopefully doesnt snowball or effect the community negatively.
Had the same thing happened to me; although I fortunately was not paralysed; though I am still being treated for effectively whiplash. It is apparently quite common. I was in the Gi, turtled, partner on my left side at the hips, with the LEFT lapel gripped from behind the waist on the Right hand side... effectively this is like a Seat belt. It was my RIGHT temple that was grounded, so when my 120kG partner rolled left, I took a trip to pop city. My feeling is that there needs to be some awareness when a persons HEAD is grounded... IF you are manipulating the body, because guess what, the head is connected to the neck to the body, where one goes the other must follow... Until it can't and then you get paralysed. You can't sue people for this though.
It's the best and worst at the same time. Lol I just had a major surgery and I'm thankful for the care I got but they have really ruined the financial aspects of it with insurance companies deciding everything and making insurance a requirement but having the insurance be terrible at the same time
it is negligence and Renner Gracie should not be attacked. If he had to take time out of his life to watch footage, assess it and talk to solicitors, appear in court…. he should be paid.
I think that there’s actually a much bigger picture in Gracies mind when it comes to this court case $100,000 for him is a lot of money, but not huge money, I think what Gracie was trying to achieve. At least in his state was to develop an industry standard outside of Federation control. By setting a legal precedence and using the terms industry standard, he sets a path that any Jiu Jitsu not following his programs is not legally following an industry standard therefore, taking control of how people deliver Jiu Jitsu in their own business without challenging the Jiu Jitsu community, but doing it through the courts. As we all know, there is no industry standard within the Jiu Jitsu community, every Academy run slightly different, they all have an overarching principal and duty of care to their students yet, when it comes to the way, we structure our programs on a weekly timetable, through gradings, and every academy has a different way of doing things. I believe Gracies mission in this situation, and he’s fully knows. It was too develop a legal definition of an industry standard, therefore nullifying the legitimacy of all other clubs in his area, and his state, even going as far as doing it across America. It’s unbelievable to me that someone who sells blue purple and brown belts online, and allows blue belts, to sign leases, and open Academy‘s under their affiliation, never training with that person before. I.e. Gracie garages you can go onto his page right now scroll down and you’ll see videos of blue belts, signing leases and setting up Academy‘s based off a Internet certificate. How this man Gracie was able to talk about an industry standard after he does, that is mind blowing to say the least.
The bottom guy's left arm is trapped. So that's a consideration. Then the bottom guy at the last second turns his head and the instructor can't stop as he's already in the air. It's an interesting case, I can't tell who is at fault when the student gave a weird reaction. Should the instructor know that reaction is possible and not go for this move? How much at fault is the bottom guy for turning his head that direction?
But that's where experience matters. Of course a white belt didn't know how to react. He's new. He's not aware of where this move is going. White belts are not sure how to feel, what's right and what's wrong... that's where the professors come in. It is up to the higher belt to control the situation.
Its such a tough call. Ultimately students should be able to leave every class without major injuries. The fact it happened with the instructor makes it worse in a way. It's a damn shame over all.
@@jessicaninkovic1545 Experience does matter! So did the bottom guy give that reaction because wrestlers will do insane looking things with their necks to avoid being belly up on the mat? I heard he had some wrestling background and that would make sense that he's going to do something like that. And yeah the instructor having it happen is a very bad look.
I was hoping this conversation would air. That was a tough case….While I do think it’s up to the higher belt to control the situation (especially if he is the coach) and I do think the poor dude deserves to be compensated (that’s what insurance is for after all) Reners involvement was disappointing. Precedent shouldn’t be put on one man’s perception of bjj regardless of his last name.
Wasn’t there another expert witness who was paid over $100k as well? I do think Rener should have defended Jiu Jitsu. And he definitely gives off used car salesman vibes. Great discussion you guys
This is a moderately common wrestling technique. Renner is an idiot for claiming there is any negligence involved. Accidents happen, even incredibly tragic ones.
every expert is asked how much money they are getting paid. but if you are saying his bjj univercity is the safest might be a bit much.but im not in bjj
In all contacts for there's a risk of getting hurt and seriously hurt happens and football happens in Karachi happens and Taekwondo happens and ruffling it's going to happen in Jiu-Jitsu just try to be careful and hopefully none of you serious accidents happen but they do happen I had my shoulder dislocated Judo class it happened
I trained that back take before, it didn't feel great I wasn't good at it so I haven't really incorporated it so far. Yes my coach showed it double under. But it's not a uniquely super dangerous or advanced thing. I don't even think it's the movement in grappling most likely to land someone on their head... the way this person performed it was certainly sloppy, overcommitted, but I don't know criminally negligent. Rener though is slimey
@@dariusrana8487 yeh, after he was flamed by everyone. It's like when a kid does something wrong and you force them to go say sorry and they don't mean it at all.
renner was brought in as expert to explaine what happened its the lawye job to clainm negligence. imagine if they got some ramdom black belt from a mcdojo
Thank whatever gods may be for the guy in the grey hat. He actually did some research. Rener NEVER said there was maliciousness. The guy is the black hat changes his argument. I agree "industry standard" is not the correct term, but the jiujitsu community should learn some lessons from Gracie University re safety standards. The divisions in jiujitsu community, leaking from Carlos & Helio is craziness!!
Blue shirt was better informed. For example red mentioning one expert witness when there were actually two - and at one point Red said: "BJJ is risky as fuck". BJJ is not _intrinsically_ "risky as fuck" and claim such is not good for business. Some places might train like daredevils but the local gym I go to (a Gracie Barra in Canada) is very family oriented and keeps emphasizing safety of your training partner and yourself (i.e. "so they can come train tomorrow!"). I have various health issues that make even that gym _somewhat_ dangerous to me (i.e. I have to leave ego at the door, pro-actively communicate my limitations to partners, sometimes tap to discomfort or minor pain - where others can go further to first test if it's a real threat). My understanding was that it's our responsibility as a sport to take care that preventable injuries are prevented. I've heard of black belts that put white belts in "adult timeout" if they spazz out by just holding them tightly for the 5 min or whatever -- rather than just verbal "stop" command and communicating "you need to take a deep breath and chill a bit. this is a positional spar. try to use the techniques you just learned. I'll give you a percentage of resistance that I think you can handle if you just do the technique right. Alright, let's try again, ready to roll?"
Also, to answer your question, Gracie has changed his story from his testimony to his 20 minute, video he also changed recent posts that he put up taking out things that were in his testimony compare to what he put up online. I would suggest reading the testimony and watching a few different takes on the issue to gain a better perspective. Gracie is a black belt salesman and very slick with his tongue, he could sell bark to a tree. He knows how to manipulate large audiences. This is why he talks to people like their five-year-olds it’s very easy to be drawn in to his fakeness, so I would urge looking at all of the facts and then making an opinion.
