Satan; Lucifer;devil.. he visited me 5times. She knows how important I am.. and I know him very well.. I knew who's podcaster, only....you Need is to get my wisdoms. The learner cannot get my wisdoms. I Love Christian but they are wrong about big horns of the devil 😈.
I’m a never Mormon listener - Mormon stories is in my lifetime top 3 most important RU-vid subscriptions. Every time I see a new notification that there’s an upload I’m giddy.
John Delhin first won me over with his content and commitment to truth, THEN John Larsen raised the bar with his incredible knowledge, straightforwardness and wisdom, and LASTLY, Carah (who I must admit took me a bit longer to relate to) has brought great wit and raw truth always with great ability to deliver. I appreciate and admire ALL of them!!!❤
Carah has impressed me with her growth in this space. She's matured and become more knowledgeable and better at making cogent arguments. Can't wait to see her in her final form...she will be a force to be reckoned with!
What is John Larson credentials he admits that he doesn't know Greek or Hebrew .the kjv is a translation from Greek and Hebrew to English and a word for word translation. I'm supposed to have faith he being correct
I'm not a Mormon but this guy john is all over place the kjv on revelations 12.9 clearly says (and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan) so which translation is john using he doesn't say where is his sources
Studying the New Testament seriously a few years ago when we started the “Come Follow Me” curriculum was the beginning of the end for me. I wasn’t afraid to look at the Bible critically because we believe it has errors; that’s not scary. Then, I got frustrated that we were ignoring so much good scholarship on the Bible, like the idea that Paul didn’t write all of the letters of Paul. The manual just ignored all of that. And the idea that the KJV got some stuff wrong, the manual ignored that too. The following year when we studied the Book of Mormon, I took that same critical lens with me and it all fell apart. Of course that is a simplified version of the story, but it was a huge part
That's all it takes sometimes--just developing the ability to be objective. And suddenly the clouds part and the ruse becomes clear. There's a reason they drill into every member that "contention is of the devil." "Contention" is really just the ability to call BS on lies.
John Larsen, I have been saying that Mormonism has its roots in the basic functions of narcissism for many years now. I would truly encourage everyone to learn about cluster B disorders in order to understand all of the different ways that narc abuse can affect people. While it is my own theory that many cluster B disorders are a response to narcissistic abuse, I have found shocking similarities between the way that Mormons come off to others and the way they function as a whole. I wish to see people set free of the damage done. It takes years to break the cycle but I believe that if the mormons truly have faith and wish to make amends that they will make the changes necessary to break free of lies and gaslighting. Edit: Check out the ancient Sumerian origin story. Annunaki.
This is so enlightening even for us Never-Mo's. This series is helping me gain a deeper understanding of my fundamentalist Christian upbringing and some of the things I was taught growing up. John Larsen is an invaluable addition to the Mormon Stories roster, and you know we all love NuanceHoe. Thank you all, Mormon Stories!
Fantastic episode!! All of my favorite peeps. I could listen all day. As an atheist/agnostic my brain doesn’t have to explode anymore trying to make sense of the nonsensical. This episode was so fun and interesting and I can’t wait for the next two!! John Larson- YOU are a marvel! Cara- YOU are my hero. Praise to the man who started Mormon Stories- Dr Dehlin. Thank you!
This was a small item on my breaking shelf, but since John Larsen mentioned the angel before Balaam, this was a detail about Joseph Smith's story that didn't ever ring true for me. After Adam & Eve left the Garden, cherubim ("sworded ones") kept them from reentering. In the Tabernacle, a pair of cherubim barred the way to the Holy of Holies. With Balaam, it's called just an angel, but it still has a sword. Its job is--similar to the cherubim--to keep unauthorized people from going forward. But Joseph's story was that angels with drawn swords were threatening him because he WASN'T moving forward fast enough (regarding polygamy). Now, I smile and think, "Joseph, you were really, really smart in so many ways, but you missed this one!" It also is just more of the "you'll really suffer if you don't get in line" dogma.
Great episode as always. One thing early-ish on was the explanation of Sheol. Sheol was the ancient Israelite underworld where all the dead go, comparable to Greek Hades. The afterlife that is translated “hell” that is derived from an ancient landfill in Jerusalem is Gehenna (taken from “Ge ben Hinnom,” Hebrew for “valley of the sons of Hinnom”), which is used in the NT for a place where the wicked are destroyed with fire and typically distinct from Hades which in Revelation is depicted as being emptied and those who are condemned are thrown into the lake of fire, which seems to be the Gehenna equivalent. Should be noted though that John’s correct in terms of Greek influence on Second Temple Jewish and early Christian concepts of the underworld, though modern hell is probably more influenced by medieval concepts and depictions, especially Dante’s Inferno.
@JohnLarsen1there was another comment correcting the usage of the phrase immaculate conception as well. Thanks for a great episode John, you’re a legend.
Love it. Good stuff. Would love to see Dr Elaine Pagels on talking about these subjects. Especially a history of the dangers of incorrect interpretation of Revelations, as John has pointed out. When cults get dark. Revelations becomes a weapon. Good stuff guys as always.
This is fantastic. And every time i watch Mormon stories or Cults to Consciousness or Nuanceho or really ANY ExMo channels, I am confronted with just how astonishingly similar Jehovah's Witnesses are to Mormons! Its insane! I wonder if John Larsen is familiar with JWs. I would LOVE to hear him rip through Jehovah's Witness beliefs!!
i’ve been big into understanding the true origin of Christian teachings, how they originated with paganism and how the ancient texts were not what we were all taught them to be: historical facts (IE the first 5 books of the bible were written circa 300 BC and are all fables) and also the origin of the concept of satan versus the concept of god. Bill Reel dismantled the concept of Satan pretty well. I am excited for this one too
Revelation was written by John during the eruption of Mt.Vesuvius. When I heard that it made more sense to me. The volcanic destruction was what traumatized the country.
Well I guess this is why the leaders of the church don't like critical thinking. Imagine if this type of discutions were allowed in Sunday school.... but nope, they prefer to promote "believe and walk by faith" (blind folded). This was a very intense and very eye opening episode. Thank all three.
I’m a NeoPagan Witch. When I left evangelical Christianity I was able to become much more thealogically (thea=goddess) sophisticated. Animism and polytheism make SO much sense.
I think some of what was said tonight is the sort if thing written about by Manley P. Hall. His book called " Magic" gets at the idea of Saturn (ie Satan) and Lucifer (Venus) being the two polarizing forces that drive human advancement or exaltation. Intelligence has a price, temptation. Ether you evolve or devolve as Brigham Young put it. I won't spoil this topic for you but it does highlight a lot of the Mormon " Deep Doctrines" that the Church abandoned in 1976 for a more Christian cosmology . I believe that Deep Doctrines are tied to the feminine or Heavenly Mother concept and could be a way to stop some of the violence and fraud Mormonism tends to produce today. Getting people to develop as intelligent Gods in Embryo is a way better option then diging up dead children by a fire pit. IMHO anyway.
"Twiddlefkery", "dumbassery" & "big horns & a 14" cock"... I'm totally stealing these terms & using them as often as I possibly can 😂😂😂Love John Lawson's attitude & no nonsense approach. What an approachable way to deal with such a heavy topic. I'm a never Mormon but raised in a religion whose traditions are still important to me only because of family but I am not religious in any way. However I love ancient history and. I have a minor in ancient history with a focus on the biblical ancient Near East, Egypt & Rome & this road Mr. Lawson is going down with all this is absolute gold. Very intelligently researched & expressed in a basis of fact that most people don't want to hear because it offends their religious beliefs. However if you truly dig into the history it's all there to see the natural progression into what things have evolved into today. Brilliant 👏🏻
Evil & Good exist because we live in polarity. In order to have a physical existence there MUST be polarities. Knowing God is to be beyond the Polarities. Think yin/yang .. non static always fluid interchanging .. the ‘Grand Ultimate’ is what yin/yang exists within. God is that which is ‘the source’, that which we are all connected to.
For some reason Christians and Jews seem to be blind to the influence of the prophet Zoroaster on their theology. The Jews in captivity in Babylon were freed by the Persian King Cyrus, a Zoroastrian. King Cyrus not only freed the Jews to return to their homeland, but gave them the funds to rebuild their temple. Maybe that's why the prophet Isaiah refers to Cyrus the Great as the Anointed, another term for Messiah? A lot of people are not aware that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic and the Jews may have developed their own monotheism as a result of their contact with Zoroastrians. We tend to think of the Jews as independently coming up with the idea of one God, but they didn't live in isolation from outside influence. Some scholars also see the Jewish ideas concerning the struggle between good and evil, light and darkness, as coming from Zoroastrianism. And then there's that story in the Gospels about the Magi coming to worship Jesus with gifts. The Magi were Zoroastrian priests. Why would Zoroastrian priests be interested in a Jewish baby? Why would the early Christians feel that it was important to include the story of the Magi seeing the Star and coming to find Jesus? St. Google gave me this information concerning a Zoroastrian "devil": Angra Mainyu, (Avestan: “Destructive Spirit”) the evil, destructive spirit in the dualistic doctrine of Zoroastrianism. Now you know.
He's not a Mormon, but you guys should really look into the work of Dr. Michael Heiser. He was an expert in ancient near east languages, and his whole thing was presenting to people how the ancients interpreted their scriptures, and make biblical scholarship accessible to everyone.
This was so good, so so good. Looking forward to part 2. I, too, notice that all the demons have huge members. And I’m all like, why is that a bad thing? They could be Ken dolls, but the artists made a choice, a conscious decision lolz
My theroy on evil is is the absence of the divine and humans have that divine spark ( intuition or knowing right from wrong ) some forgot and became dark or utilitarians. Buddist describe the divine state of mind sepprate from sociatal station, the goal is nervana. Mormons seen close to hindu krishna . 10 years out of the church and still shocked at the lies the church tells. Great job at the podcast❤
There was once Good and Evil and they were opposed. One day Good decided to give a bit of himself to Evil to make him better and so he gave him an O. Evil took the O and being evil mishapened it to his own delight. That is why today we have God and the Devil. ---- My mom's story to me as a child.
I enjoy a sort of Gnostic style reading of Mormonism where Lucifer is a noble, if sometimes misguided, antihero who is seeking to save humanity from the tyranny and evil of Elohim. Jesus would, in this reading, be an enabler of Elohim and an enforcer of that will. But since I like Jesus, I like to imagine that he would eventually be swayed to Lucifer’s side during the last battle, joining forces with him to overthrow the tyrant. Also, are we really skipping over how a pre-existant Peter shook hands with Adam in the Endowment, the sign of a deceiving spirit according to D&C. Know what Lucifer never does? Shake hands with Adam. Just saying.
Even when I was still a believing/practicing Mormon, as someone who knows a little about philosophy I just shook my head whenever some leader would proudly proclaim that the gospel solves the problem of evil. The Mormon "solution" is always to deny either the omnipotence of god (by positing that he is bound by rules) or the omnibenevolence of god (by positing that there are things he prioritizes above preventing evil), which is actually not nearly as innovative or unique as Mormon General Authorities seem to believe it is. They try to dress these solutions up and disguise them so it appears that they're preserving whatever attribute of god they're denying, but you don't have to think about their explanations very long to see what underlies them.
If Satan just decided not to tempt people then wouldn’t the original plan that he set forth be successful? No one would choose between right and wrong cause there would be no wrong.
Yeah, this one gets into an interesting thought experiment where: if the devil is truly trying to frustrate god’s plan, why not just sit back and do nothing? Then we might have to think that god is actually forcing the devil to do his work?! Ultimately, it doesn’t make sense. Myth rarely has to conform to reality.
@@OuttaMyMind911 exactly! Once you actually start to think about it on a deeper level there is no good answer. At the end of the day god chose the plan that would give him all the glory, would banish 1/3 of his children right out the gate with no second chance, and would allow the worst evil to exist. Is this the god Mormons really want to believe in?
Ex Jw Atheist here. I find the assertion that "Sons of God" in the Hebrew Bible refers to the Nephelim (offspring of Angels and human women) dubious. where is your support for that?
A great and facinating podcast episode! The first one with John Larsen I've watched. When talking about Isaiah 14:15, I think John Larsen accidentally mixed up Sheol and Gehenna. In Isaiah 14:15 it talks of Sheol, which was the Jewish equivelant of the afterlife, which everyone went to, and was an underworld place of stillness and darkness. It is Gehenna which was reputed to be the garbage dump where rubbish was burnt. It was described, particularly in the NT, as the place of divine punishment as the destination of the wicked, where they would burn in fire. Apparently there is no historical or archeological evidence that Gehenna originally referred to a rubbish dump where refuse was burnt. I have an issue with labelling any particular religion a "true religion" or "not a true religion", but each to their own. 🤷🏻♂️ I don't think the truth of a religion is truely dichotomous. Some things in any particular religion are right, and some things are wrong. (FWIW I identify as an agnostic atheist.) It seems to me that when Eve describes the fruit as "good", it is in the sense of whether it was edible/delicious or not, not in the sense of whether is was moral to eat the fruit or not. I'm looking forward to further episodes in this series about Satan.
There's a fascinating History (development of the idea/archetype) of the Devil book series by Jeffrey Burton Russell (a uni professor, not a theologian) you might be interested in.
So much factually incorrect here. First off he says “there is no designation of Michael in the NT, that’s a Catholic creation later” totally false. Revelation 12:7 - “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon,”
I enjoy most of the Mormon Stories podcasts even though I am not Mormon - but I like the discussion of scripture though can’t relate to much of the Book of Mormon. Anyway my take on the Tree of Good and Evil is just a mythology about human beings descending into a sense-based existence into a dualistic mind - before human beings were more ethereal and connected to a unity. It’s the same with the Tower of Babel - people spoke “one language” meaning they existed in the unity. But as people became more individualistic they lost their connection to “God” which resides within each person as a unity of consciousness and so people develop their own language and cease to understand each other and in a dualistic state one suffers from this separation. Anyway that is my take - old vid but I find it interesting.
If you want to know the truth all you have to do is pray, that is what Joseph Smith he learned from the bible to pray. The devil didnt like that because it meant bringing back the true church on earth again. This is why there is so much negativity toward the church. Did you ever think to pray and ask Heavenly Father for yourself which church is true? You cant knownfor certain unless you try. And I think all of you know that is the true church. You just need to open up and accept it. I know its true my testimony grew my faith lingered for awhile but now I am more steadfast in the truth by the experiences God has given me. And maybe try bringing more positivity to each other instead of negativity. Showing kindness and love I think is what we all need
"Mormonism is not a theology, it's a mind-fuckery, because people can't even articulate what their own religion is. Their minds are so tied up in knots that they can't even unpack what they are saying. It last for years. Years and years and years after people leave the church that they still are falling to these traps, these lies, this double speak of believing two simultaneously conflicting things and just switching back and forth between one vs the other. I've spent my life trying to study mormonism and I tell ya, there ain't no there there. It's really a study in psychology" this has to be my fav quote so far
