I think you dont need the Ideal Setup. The nice Thing bout TBC is, you can Play whatever you want, everything is viable. But every RU-vid Pro Talk bout the BEST. I dont get it. And after this Videos people wont Play hat they want to, they Play most DPS, Best Tank, Best Heal.
It’s still that way mostly. The meta is cool to think about and min/maxing a raid is important to the top tier guilds in the world. But for the rest of us that just wanna play and raid casually the meta is less important.
@@knarf427 I like being top dps too but I would never reroll to a class I don't enjoy because it does more dps, or ignore inviting a class that does less dps than others to a dungeon or raid...
@@thorbeorn4295 That is only good to a certain level of play though. Once you reach a certain level, ignoring the meta is harmful to your group which isn't fair on the other players
Interesting to see this list now that we know the dmg capabilities each class can do. Like ele shaman actually being one of the worst dps in raids while ret paladins are abolute pumpers in single target. Fury warriors doing insane dmg (which nobody originally believed which is kind of insane to me). Arcane being the best caster dps, and warlocks being slightly lower than expected, and survivial hunters actually pumping really hard as well if they can consistently melee weave during the fight.
An Arms warrior's Blood Frenzy is only physical damage not ALL damage, and I am pretty sure it was a tooltip bug, and only affects melee attacks, rather than all physical damage
The way i understood his thought process was that, when 3 warlocks all get that 15% buff it equals the same as you would have 3.45 warlocks in your raid instead of just 3 but, yeah, in the end its still 15% overall dps increase.
Yep, things change once you get into t5-t6. Mages start dropping off in sunwell. Locks just become better caster options all around by that point so you usually just bring the 1 mage. Enhance shamans get really strong by t6 as well. Rogues with glaives are competing with warlocks without problems against demon targets. Which is a lot of BT, and all of sunwell. Marks hunter although still kinda niche does strong dps once you get some good gear. My buddy mained marks and could compete for sure.
Thanks, Boss! This Tier List is actually much more helpful than those looking only at throughput. I'll most likely lead a Raid myself and as I barely remember TBC this helps a lot with preparation for recruitment.
Power levels change A LOT between tiers. For instance with 2p T5 mages become top contender on the DPS metters, be it only for 1 tier. Also I am pretty sure that warglaives rogues will do competitive DPS as well.
Rogues are gear hungry m8 . They do fine without warglaives . They are useful ppl don't take rogues because the players that roll rogue suck at the game . IDK why ppl complain about rogue anyway . They are op in pvp and can prolly get superior gear from arena
Min/Maxing in WoW is pointless at character creation. Play what looks the best to you and spend your Min/Maxing time on endgame gear where it actually matters. As someone who is 41yo and played about 6-7 MMOs with' WoW since closed/open betas on and off with breaks, all I can say is play what you want and what you enjoy the most. Fun = longer time played with X class and Y spec = better geared = better ingame experience = less chance of reroll etc etc. I mean the super hardcore playerbase is what, 5% of the total? Even Kevin Jordan said that the hc represented like 0.3% in Vanilla who cleared Naxx. But many content creators trying to make it sound this is the regular norm. Sigh.
Unfortunately due to many people only caring about DPS meters, most pugs will consider Ret dps and shadow dps to be D rank. I'm not sure why so many people ignore the utility of classes and only think about straight damage capabilities
I'm actually interested how shaman tanking is going to work if rockbiter gets nerfed to the ground, you can't spec into parry without losing a massive amount of threat, and earth shock no longer generates threat
Combat Sword rogues, played correctly, and with enough haste pots, the DST from Gruhl, well timed wind fury from a shaman, and stacking hit to the hit cap - would typically lead DPS in most single target boss fights until almost Mount Hyjal. The mistake folks made with them was not understanding that most damage with a rogue comes from (1) white damage from never letting slice and dice drop (2) DOT from keeping rupture up at 5 dots at all times (3) DOT from deadly poison on your offhand. if you are playing this right you should be doing well over 1K on tank and spank bosses by the time you have a few pieces of T-4. Also, the most important rogue rule of all for DPS - don't fucking die.
Rogues: Combat maces/sword with Dragonstrike is BiS untill glaives - any Rogue doing PvE will be BS and LW crafting the maces as there is nothing comparable, the spec is a hybrid mace/sword spec with a sword OH
@@SullenJazzhands i do think that Chimera shot and overall talents makes MM really strong at least from what I tried. Also remember that volley is spammable!
Could you do a video showing what changed for classes as patches where released? Like what classes for better and which got worse on the latest patch that TBC classic will be released in
I remember my ret pally being my main alt that got a huge buff going into patch 2.2 or so. I had mostly t6 gear and still wasn't all that good beforehand. When the big sunwell nerf (along with that buff I assume) came I was competing for best dps on every single boss.
In Vanilla TBC we killed Archimonde in Hyjal with 1 paly tank, 3 BM hunters, and a Resto Shaman when the raid was current content. Your ranking of demo lock is a head scratcher. The FG does a shitload of damage. Its the best early lock spec until around 23% crit when you move onto full ruin/ds. Even after a good demo lock will be close to the top of damage following BM hunters and destro. The only hurdle with demo is pet heals and when you get 2 pc tier 5 and bribing a paly/druid healer friend to make a target macro to spot heal your pet for mana pot payments. It will do VERY well. its a crazy strong spec to play! For those of us who have PLAYED TBC we know this to be a fact! >8)
Okay, but that dps is ruined any time the FG can’t get behind the target. That being said, top warlock dps in TBC t4 was actually affliction, but the skill cap with that spec is much higher. Just because you saw one demo lock near the top doesn’t mean that demo is strong. I remember seeing rogues top damage in t4 on some pulls, but that doesn’t mean that the rogue competes with a warlock if they are equally geared and skilled players. For those of us that actually do the math and have the ability to properly evaluate data, we know that the true best dps spec, as the stated goal for this video, is in fact not demo ever, unless you want to count locks without gear or skill
I used to be copy from 60 camp, but after this I hope they start fresh servers to give everyone a fair chance with rerolls and the economy. Pallys/Shaman also getting a fair chance to get to end game with everyone else. The economy seriously needs a reset and hopefully a better bot detection system. I would definitely eat the reroll if it means a better server life. Short term pain for long term gain.
Same, even though from the start i thought fresh servers are the best idea from the game integrity PoV. At least when TBC servers are open we will have month or two of decent economy ...
Taking away what people have grinded in Classic is just unfair and in the long run hurts integrity of the game. When u do that people will play way less next expansions beceause they have no guarantee they will keep what they achieved. U say a fresh chance is fair, i don't know how is it fair on people who sunk days into leveling alts in Classic or grinded gold and items like TF or T3 sets. Maybe u can set a pretty high gold cap for transfer like atleast 10k and probably more like 50k or even 100k so there is no way it can affect 99% of playerbase but u can't take away people's characters and items.
@@Mason1968PL But when you think about it...no one promise you TBC to begin with , Blizzard is not obligated to do so, it is your own wish and nothing more then that.
@@Mason1968PL There not taking it away are they? I hear this arguement all the time, blizz never promised you tbc.. they promised you classic, if they create fresh tbc servers and not progressive you still have that gold on classic..
"It's not fair that I can't take all my gold and my gear into tbc" why isn't it fair? Noone promised you progressive tbc nor progressive servers.. they promised you classic wow.. and you have it.. if they create stand alone TBC servers you still have your gear and your gold?
I'd have loved to have some sort of debate between IDS & deep holy priest - but seeing them as a 2 of, I would assume that one is from both specs ^^ Great video as always mate, cheers!
warr and rogues do good dmg providing the boss mechanics allow it. It's not that they do bad dps, it's just that so many mechanics favours ranged. But if they can stand and pump on a boss, they are very good.
It really depends on the gear, by the last two teirs rogues with warglavies are on top very close second are fury warriors and so you will see raids that are packed full of them. The early raids are a cake walk anyway so really no need to ever stack hunters and warlocks but without extremely good gear the melee heavy raids do have a slower harder time early on, so I am sure you will see the guilds going for world firsts do the first couple of clears as ranged and then split raid with alts to gear the melee ready for later teirs. BTW there is a very very good chance that a fury warrior or rogue will be top dps in even the early raid teirs in hardcore groups this is because there is infact much better pre raid physical damage melee equiptment from crafting and dungeons than caster.
You never see ''raids packed full of them'' as first you need to aquire the damn claives and they are pretty rare. On top of that, i would argue that its a minority group who clears the raid to begin with.
I don’t like tiering specs in TBC, because that’s the good thing about TBC except some nieche specs have a raidspott, mby you stack only certain of them but almost every spec has it’s purpose
It is also extremely misleading as for example warlocks might spec rather widely among the three trees considering that lower destro is subpar and what demon you end up sacrificing. Warlock is more like a class in TBC and less like a spec-confined role. Though I admit that few other classes are that less defined by their talent trees.
@@Stutzi152 SB destro is not viable but best. THe other specs especially in earlier tiers are doing just as well but then lag behind, still capable of competing with other specs and just fine to clear the raids.
@@adrianmlodzik7713 Dude you will able to kill muru with Poison SP rogues if you want too, it’s so fucking easy, but if you talk about tierlists there is nothing even similar to SB destro, because of the 20% Shadowdmg debuff, for fire actually being viable in raid you need a fire mage which if we go about best specs again you won’t have in raid
@@Stutzi152 Actually BM hunters are fairly similar in power so theres that. And im sure there will be raids with fire mages so there shouldnt be a problem.
@@internetalpha5173 yea iirc it applied 2 stacks of 20%? nature damage taken to the target but i think rouges could also steal some of these stacks with poisions
@@stupidcomment6571 I get your point, although I can never agree on calling Warriors op when something like Mages exist :P I mean, ya, Warrior is king of dps and best tanking class, but pretty much sucks in every other part of the game, be it leveling, farming, solo PvP etc. So I think it is actually ok, that they are top tier in raids. Mage, on the other hand, just dominates all of these categories and is still insanely good in raids. So yeah... If I had to choose a topdog in Classic it would not be Warrior :P
@@chocrikir655 No because you literally can't stack more than 3 of anything. if you stack more than 2 you are probably hurting your overall raid performance. More than 3 then unless you are switching for every encounter, you're definitely going to underperform. This is completely different to the Classic meta of "as many as we can find" for Warriors.
@@dairallan You are not wrong, but the main reason for that is the cut to 25. You basically get in all the important support/tank/healing roles and stack the best dps for the rest of slots. In Classic there are a few less supporter that actually matter, so getting in things like Shadow or Enhancer is definately refreshing. But other than that you still stack the best dps, but there are less spots to fill them with, so you rarely see more than 3 of each. If TBC was 40, we would also see all these extra 15 spots filled with Hunter/Warlock
"It's a 15% increase to shadow damage, with 3 warlocks that is a 45% increase in damage from those warlocks." That is not how percentages work. It's just 15%.
45% of 1 warlock dmg is the end result. depends how you you look at it. Each warlock doin extra 15% dmg, add this all together you get 45% of power added on top of the pack of 3. Other words, you started with 3 warlocks, now you got 3.45 warlocks. Or 15% total damage increase. I guess its a backwards way of looking things but there it is.
Classes are evenly matched in most part. About some of them imo. Prot pala is good but is nowhere near druid or warr when it comes to boss tanking. Rogues are on par with ret if the player knows what he's doing . I've seen rogues top the meters . Alot of ppl think that if u get the glaives ur gonna be top meter from them on but if u have no clue what ur doing u will stay at the bottom. Yes you can get glaives but guess what. Everyone else gets t6 and overall a spike in dps
There is a 870 dps difference between a Beastmaster and a Ret if that tells you anything. I would take one of each B, C, and D then 2 of A and stack S.
i have to agree BM hunter is S Tier BM hunter begins to rule in pvp and pve starting of TBC expansion 14 years ago my hunter facepalm the keyboard and pressing 3 buttons can easily be top dps
Your tier list is different than other channels. I've been playing TBC on pservers for years and I disagree with your list. Resto druids have always been S tier because Lifebloom HoTs are ridiculously OP. There's a reason why resto druids are always at the top of the healing charts. They also have excellent utility. Ele shamans are A tier, Arcane mages are S tier, moonkin are B tier but lower than all the other B tier.
One of the problems with ele shamans in early tier dps is that since your dps is so rng and therefore bursty, with no threat drop, you can have threat issues at the beginning of pulls. They Also have mana issues if you're trying to max dps because of the mana cost of chain lightning, especially on longer fights like gruuls. On the upside eles go LW from the start to get the LW ele set, so they not only provide hero but drums, too. Overall they're decent damage early but fall off in that regard, but remain in very high demand due to class utility buffs to the stronger caster dps classes. They're also very fun to play in dungeons because of chain lightning and hero. Decent at world farming because of their ability to mobtag when eles are contested. I could non stop farm water eles in terokkar for dozens of pulls in a row to the point that id often bully other classes out of the area, and decent at PvP contesting due to burst.
I mained an ele shaman in retail TBC, if you know how to gear they don't fall off as hard as people think. I was consistently top 4 in my guild through SSC, BT, and Sunwell.
Also - your raid is full with just your A and B tiers, if you are doing one of each A tier and one of each B tier your your 25 raider team. Why include those descriptions at all if you weren't going to balance your rankings around them to give actual numbers to include?
Shadow priests do a sick load of damage not sure why everyone is sleeping on them. it’s only up from here boys. Fire mages should be a b or C honestly, with how scorch works fire only gets better the more fire mages you have, of course this takes away from your other s tier pics as well as the “need in raid” specs so mages eventually get sat. my guild when progressing in sunwell sat both our fire mages for a extra shaman and a spirit demo lock for the warlocks and spriests
Hello ,thx for video . It was very helpfull. I have one question . Can I continue to play my classic lvl 60 character ?? Or new lvling proces needed ??
@M S wrong that's not how it works. Classic realms will be automatically converted to tbc with the option to transfer to a classic 60 capped realm if you want to stay 60.
Hey Meta, kinda random but your accent sounds very similar to Alex Turner’s from the Arctic Monkeys. Maybe it’s my un-attuned American hearing and I’m way off, but are you from Sheffield or near there (that’s where he’s from)? UK accents are so interesting and varied, I could be super wrong lol
MetaGoblin welp, that’s my bad foreigner understanding of UK accents. Cumbria is closer to Scotland than it is to Sheffield right? I wasn’t even close haha
Not sure I'd say shadow priests are the worst dps in a raid, I'd put them above ret pally, druid dps, and most of the melee dps for that matter at least until end of BT content.
S= Hunter, Lock A= Mage B= Shaman, Rogue C= Warrior, Druid, Shadow D= Retribution Special mention a Rogue with both Glaives and Dragonspine and played optimally is King. This is logged, tested, and proven just hit the wayback machine.
Let be more specific. S=Beastmaster, Destruction A= Fire Arcane(T5), Combat(glaives, dragonspine trophy) B=Elemental, Combat(non-glaives, ds trink) C=Arms, Fury, Boomkin, Feral, Frost, Assasination, Shadow, Retribution (Horde with pocket healer) D=Retribution(Alliance) D
@@CSSX80 there's no difference between Horde and Alliance Paladin now that they both get Seal of Blood. www.ign.com/articles/the-burning-crusade-classic-will-have-more-changes-than-original-wow-classic
yup, but the value of warlocks is increased by 15% in general making warlocks more powerful when paired with the debuff. I think you're correctly pointing out the erroneous math that was supposed to underline the huge increase.
I have two questions i hope you can answer. To ensure a raid spot as a Shadow Priest in TBC would it be worth it too roll a Draenei? (Have a lvl 60 Dwarf in Classic) Are there any new TBC private servers inc.? Just to mess around with before TBC classic is out :) Thanks in advance. Awesome videos!
@@buttonmashers7133 they get an instant big heal desperate prayer which is similar to lay on hands. They get chastise which is similar to hammer of justice And on top of that stone form Go look at the racials on wowwiki
@@buttonmashers7133 no, they don't. only humans and dwarves get Desperate Healing. all priests got fear ward though, so that's something. look up the wowwiki - don't spread misinformation.
The fact that Warlock isn't S tier shows me a lot. Their damage with a S Priest and E Shaman in the group is second to none except end game Hunter and Warrior with armor pen.
For all the people saying we just grabbed whatever we could find might have worked back then but now in modern times they gonna picked meta classes for raiding
Any race playing any competitive arena spec can achieve high rank. Is it better to be undead? Yeah, but it's not going to be the thing that makes or breaks you getting to high rank or not. Mace stun meta becomes a big thing in tbc for warriors so you have a slight edge against those comps that an undead wont have, but is rng dependent.
I'm a holy priest and hoping there's room for me and another priest I enjoy healing with. I'm willing to go shadow but damn I love healing and I can't wait to see if priest ends up beings more fun than shammy.
If you have another priest that goes shadow you will have a great time. Priests synergize so well with each other spec wise that it's hilarious people say to only bring a few of them. Stick with your priest and you'll have a great time.
Why would you take 2 prot warriors, 2 prot paladins and a bear?! Seems to me the 'bring 2 of these' and 'bring one of these' subscripts are nonsense ;)
I actually want to argue with u in terms of Subtitle Rogue, because of the Hemorhage. Yeah, you might say that 10 strikes easily will parish in few seconds, but hey - extra +42 damage per hit, especialy for Druid's are insane. If u have 2 rogues in raid Hemorrhage will be always on the target! Yeah in terms of single target DPS Sub rogue not better then Combat for obvious reason, but in terms of long distance average DPS of our melee member's was about 3-5% more. U are right that TBC is more distance DPS prefer patch, but if u have no options Subtitle is not that bad.
Tanks (2): 2 X Druid or 2 X Paladin or one of each. Healers (8): 2 holy priests, 2 holy paladins, 1 resto druid 2 Resto shaman, 1 disc priest. DPS (15): 3-4 BM hunters, 3-4 Destro locks (what ever you have 3 of, you have 4 of the other), 3 ele shamans, 2 shadow priests, 1 survival hunter, 1 Boomkin, 1 enhancement, 1 arms warrior. 2-8-15 setup. You can argue for a few of these spots, but this feels about right. isn't Feral druid the strongest tank in TBC over all? best tank pre-raid, all the way to Tier 6, where the paladin and warrior finally catch up? that's what I read anyway. it was my understanding that warrior tanks get benched in TBC. hmmm...
You might need to read the mechanics of Illidan again to remember that he can't be tanked by a bear druid, at least not if you don't want your raid to suffer hard. So you need a decently geared warrior/paladin tank at least for that fight, which coincidentally is the hardest fight before Sunwell ;)
You can argue with a lot of things here, first of all you will need 3 tanks most of the time (some bosses even 4, can be the ret with OS tho) - So tanks (3) - 1 Paladin, 1 Druid and 1 Warrior, 2nd - you will never need 8 healers, most of the time 5 or 6 will be fine (mby even less with izy pizy Classic TBC difficulty) and those are 1 CoH/Spirit Priest, 1 RDruid, 1 Hpala, 2/3 Rshaman, 3rd DPS Spots - 1 Arms, 1 Rogue (yes for imp. exposed armor), 1 Enh, 1 Ret, 1 Ele shaman, 1 Boomi, 1/2 SP (dipends on the healer setup you can go 5 healer and 2SP or 6 healer 1 SP), 1 SV Hunter, 3/4 BM Hunter, 3/4 Destro WL (Mby 1 Affli if he knows what he is doing) and 1-3 Mages) ------- (3)-(5/6)-(16/17) purfect setup!
@@bigbobfox91 there is 1 rogue :) or I did put one, might have removed it, but yeah, the should have been 1, there is room for 1. and then take out a healer or something.
Bro you should have look into the classes a bit deeper you always talk down retri paladins most likely because 90% of the retri are extremely bad however its not the class the player on a good hands it can be in top 5 dps in 25man. Here I must mention that its depends heavily on the bis grp setup with feral / enchan shammy.
Why bring any Holy Priest or Resto Druid when you can bring one more Bloodlust Chain Heal? Why bring any Mage when you could bring a Warlock instead? Im curious if Imp EA will become meta in which case there’s no way warr tank is the way to go.
Best to have a balanced healer set up for the armour buffs they provide in their heals for example. Plus they bring different dispells and cc. You need a mage for intellect buff and ritual of refreshment. Plus dampen magic buffs etc.
@@MetaGoblin ofc if a fight requires dispell or such, you can bring dispeller as needed. As for mage buffs, there’s no need to bring mage inside raid; just get the buff outside raid and let mage stay outside :)
@@thomasbrandenburg3489 mage can also bring 2% spell crit to the entire raid by wielding Atiesh. Percentages in tbc are way bigger than in classic because of the stat changes. Keep in mind mages are the third on the meters and once they get further into tbc they are going to get closer to hunters and warlocks.
@@van7915 atiesh isnt raidwide, only partywide. And while 28 crit rating gives 2 percent crit chance at 60, its less at 70 - Atiesh wont be replaced in Kara (prolly havent actually gone over the math) but will be replaced soon enough into tbc. Unless there’s a point where mages overtake warlocks, there’s no reason to bring a single mage if you care for the most optimal setup.
