--- TIME STAMPS --- 00:00 Intro into garrisons 00:40 explanation of resistance and compliance 01:15 the basic template you should use 03:20 the armored car template 03:50 the light tank template 05:15 armored car vs light tank 06:40 testing cavalry vs armored car vs light tank 10:15 prince of terror & resistance suppression 11:30 the role of MP support companies 12:30 META garrison division 13:40 extra bonuses for suppression 17:00 recap and overview Please use the timestamps love you ❤❤❤
People always obsess about the IC cost of different garrison templates. They forget that you can just use obsolete 1936 guns in stockpile. Zero IC cost.
@@512TheWolf512 Still not worth it imho for all the factories you have to put in light tanks and the army xp for the template creation. Compared to zero factories and a little more manpower and 80 XP if you do the proper heritage trick.
When tanks don't use anti tank or artillery or anti air as equipment in a division: I sleep When armored car does the same: DO THEY JUST RUN THEM OVER??/??/?/?
When I play nations that require you to deal with lots of resistance for long periods, I use a template of 1 light tank and 1 horse. Having the 50/50 split of horse and light tank really cuts back on the amount of light tanks I need, as well as adding a bit of hardness to the garrison division.
The cheapest Armored Car is 8.0 production cost, significantly more expensive than your 2.25 Light Tank, and with the same suppression and less hardness... What's the point of Armored Cars again? Paradox should make Armored Cars have mad suppression to compensate, like 5 or something. Paradox has a habit of letting features kinda rot and become some sort of newbie traps / roleplayer baits instead of making them viable and interesting, enriching the game. I believe it's truly an easy fix, just some numbers, to make those cars viable.
Cheapest armoured car is 4 ic not 8, but still significantly more than light tank. And yes they are mostly noobtrap, one of many in HOI4. Well there is one use for them, they don’t need army xp in designing so if you skip light tanks altogether you could save maybe 1-2 doctrine worth of xp. Something I do sometimes with USA as an example.
Please note that there is a minimal damage to the garrison per activity. It would be either a piece of support equipment, infantry equipment, or a whole light tank. My recommendation would be use high hardness garrison only for high resistance area where you take more than minimal damage.
Guns can be produced from start of game, literally every single country has access to guns. Tanks, however, have to be researched. By the time you have a tank researched (if you don't start with one), you end up behind. Generally, guns are cheaper simply because you can mass produce them from day 1.
Many nations, if not most, have access to interwar tanks from the start. But you are right, if you don’t have even that and newer going to tanks then it’s probably not worth it.
@@FishwicksREAL You're confusing cheapness with pace. Yes, not all countries can make tanks right away, but it's cheaper to make tanks anyway. The point is that with cheap tanks you free up infantry equipment from garrisons and therefore you don't need to produce so much of it in the future. so it may not pay off right at the start, but it pays off in the middle term.
The difference in up front cost is indeed in favor of guns, but don't forget that this is maybe a 2x factor (5k guns are about half as expensive as 2k tanks). But light tanks take 5x less damage from partisans (80% hardness vs 0%) so the cost over time is way in favor of the light tanks. Not to forget the manpower advantage of running light tank garrison, not only do you need less, you also lose less manpower due to the 80% hardness again. Calcs for the factors: 2.25 IC cost for 1 light tank as shown in the video. 0.5 IC cost for cheap guns multiplied by 2.5 (the amount of guns per tank) = 1.25 IC cost. So it's even less than twice as cheap. And this is just the upfront cost. They take 5x less damage which in total results in about half to 3 times less expenses in maintaining garrison (5x less damage but twice the cost is about 2.5 times cheaper in favor of tanks). But they also take 5x less casualties to manpower and they also need less manpower to maintain. All the above results in light tanks being the best even with the extra buffs to horses, which was why he was so dissapointed. Edit: The reason it's so much worse is because the buff in the doctrines does not work as advertised since it should be: 2.0*1.40(MP)=2.8 suppression for horses but with the extra 0.5 they should become 3.3 per horse but they only give 3 as shown in the video, making the buff only give 0.2 instead of the advertised 0.5
I really wish I could double or even triple required garrisons while staying within the same occupation laws for small bonus to resistance target. Sometimes I have the manpower, I have the IC and I would be just willing to invest them just to have lower suppression and higher compliance. For example doubling the required garrisons gives you 1.5 * target resistance and tripping garrisons would give you 2 * target resistance without negatively influencing compliance gain. Another nice possibility would be if I could set triggers to auto set occupation laws, e.g.: 1. If has aluminium ==> forced labour 2. If target resistance at least 45% then martial law, else military governor etc
With MIO's, the light tank is going to be much better. Producing them is going to be funding tank buffs for your army, and in addition, the buffs can decrease cost even further if you stack those ones.
so this got me thinking and crunching the numbers and you can quantify the cost/benefit of using tanks for garrison the cheapest i could make (this is ignoring ways you could mix/max MIO to get production discounts) was: heavy -> 9.6 IC x40/battalion = 384 IC for 2.5 suppression 95% hardness 500 manpower light -> 2.4 IC x60/battalion = 144 IC for 2.5 suppression 80% hardness 500 manpower cavalry/InfEq -> 0.43 IC x 120/battalion = 51.6 IC for 2 suppression = 64.5 IC for 2.5 suppression 0% hardness 1000 manpower Basically this means that light tank garrison costs 144/64.5 = 2.23x IC as an initial investment, heavy tank 384/64.5 = 5.95x IC in exchange for lower losses over time if losses are X% a year then the annual saving for tanks compared to cav = 0.01X (convert % to decimal) * (64.5 - cost of tank batt * (1-hardness)) , and time to payoff = difference in IC / annual saving light tanks : time to payoff = (144-64.5) / 0.01X(64.5 - 144 * 0.2) = 20 years for 10% losses/year , 10 years for 20% losses/year, 6.6 years for 30% losses/year etc. heavy tanks: time to payoff = (384-64.5) / 0.01X(64.5 - 384 * 0.05) = 70 years for 10% losses/year, 35 years for 20% losses/year, 23years for 30% losses/year etc. unless I am way off on realistic loss rates for garrisons it definitely looks like in terms of IC it is not worth it at all. although you could see it as a investment into MIO for buffed fighting tanks i guess. does anyone know what typical loss % a year is for say germany dealing with poland? however you do also only take 1/10 and 1/40 ((1-hardness) * 0.5 manpower/suppression tanks vs Cav) manpower losses for light and heavy tanks respectively so basically it looks like tanks for suppression are only good if you have a low manpower high industry nation
Nice work there mate. On top of how long it takes to pay off you can also consider that you can lower the costs for the cavalry by all the guns that you capture and/or go obsolete. Which for all nations that get a lot of resistance they take a lot of anyway as you are conquering. So it seems it is really only worth it if having manpower issues.
Cheap light tanks are the GOAT. You can make a Light Tank with Wheels for under 2IC and their suppression is insane. I usually out 3 mils on Light Tanks and its perfectly fine. Enough to have tanks to sell on the market to Italy.
max width light tanks with military police are best suppression template. Might not be worth it to spend that much army xp on a suppression template outside Italy, Japan or Germany since most other countries wont occupy much
Anther thing if you hover over the update when you are on 1 horse and go make it into the full horse Battalion and this is already your garrison unit it will show in the breakdown of what is changing for your garrisons and going from 1 or 3 horse to full without police force you gain 1 equipment and like 17 manpower. Per division needed to fill out the garrison. My test was made with Italy techless. Its not worth going from 1 horse to full unless you have police force. Or as a I'm a new player not knowing other nations, if your nation has focus's that change Suppression. Italy has 1 (Security Militias) Adds a Spirt called Camicie Nere. Which does a bunch of Garrison changes. Garrison penetration of -10%, Damage to them by -10%, increased of 5% Police suppression bonus. which is just a eh amount. but the other two seem great for when you go armored. And the best part as a smaller nation Recruitable population factor 15%. This pushes the factor over 100% aka bigger multiplier for manpower growth effects if I understand it correct.
Last someone ran tests, MP isn't worth because even if a state needs only 0.05 division or whatever, you still lose at least 1 equipment type per damage tick (rounds up). As a result, MP saves a tiny amount of manpower and costs significantly more IC :/.
I always use cavalry for garrisons in the way this guy recommend it. I form them out of subject manpower, so the losses don't bother me in any way. The guns come from conquered stores and are usually outdated. Thus the losses of guns don't bother me, too.
My most recent game as germany I was off invading the USA when Italy declared war on Switzerland. I had no combat division back in Europe. Luckily I had all light tank MP divisions. Full stacks of light tanks. 100+ divisions of them. Moved them over super fast to the border and just sat there until Italy finally beat them or I beat the USA and ended the War. Can't remember which happened first. It's a solid reason for those emergencies to go all light tank MP spam.
Are you making your garrison division actually garrison the land with units? If so, you're using the garrison wrong. The MP units should never be produced into your army it's exclusive a UI unit.
light tanks with Wheeled suspension is 48% hardness and halftracked is 56%, are either of these worth it? half tracked reduces production by 0.15 and wheeled - nvm wheeled reduces reliablity by -20%
Does anyone know, if you have an actual division active in a region, and it has MP, does it add suppression to the area like we used to have to do for garrisons? I often leave defending units behind in some areas and was thinking of adding MP.
if i remeber there are some doctrines that adds more suppression to tanks and doing "research all" could have gotten the same suppression bonus as armored cars not to sure on that but that could be why armored cars in your video have the same suppression as light tanks
Ive been facing issues with resistance with some of the updated DLC countries, specially with chile, paraguay, bolivia etc. Maybe they added this MP bonus to help with that. Chile in particular have terrible amount of manpower and you can spend a lot of time in a war until you can form puppets (it ticks resistance until you do so). Maybe they added the mp buff to help with that? I also found my self going down mass assault more often with mentioned countries, which would make sense to put the buff there.
Would be cool if you had a recap with the actual conclusions at the end, since at multiple points in the video, you contradict what you had said previously or reach a new conclusion. I usually end these "find out as we go" videos more confused than before.
These videos aren't scripted. Everything is ad-libbed. Normally the corrections are small elements. And don't change the overall conclusion of the video. In this case the templates I showed are all valid and current meta
I used to use armored cars as Germany but when you start invading the USSR there are not enough mils in Europe to fulfill the garrison requirements while the war is ongoing
When using military governor MP-templates has a slightly less upfront IC cost to fill the garrisons compared to non-MP templates, but MP will suffer more IC loss due to support equipment disproportionately losing more from resistance activities. After a year most MP templates will be even in total IC cost compared to non-MP templates. After 2 year it will be about 5-8% more total IC compared to non-MP templates. MP reduce the Manpower required and losses by 17% but If you dont want to lose manpower then use non-MP light tank instead. They require significantly less manpower to garrison and lose 1/10 of the manpower from resistance compared to the best CavMP template and only cost 25% more total IC after 2 year(most of it due to the high cost of filling the garrison, Light tanks only lose half of the IC to resistance compared to Cavalry). I dont see a reason to go military police when you first must research it when you have limited slots and it being cost inefficient compared to normal templates and if you want the manpower then just use light tanks. All in all i prefer using 1 cav and limiting it to using old equipment that otherwise would just rot away in the stockpile instead of using up my current inf equipment or support equipment that will be useful the entire game.
For me the investment in army XP and Military factories for light tanks is just not worth it compared to the 1/max horse trick. Especially as you can set them to just use basic infantry (and or level 1) equipment that you capture a lot of anyway. Start of the game 1 horse, once doctrine unlocks full size temporary switch to proper Heritage make the template and done. It's really only worth it if lacking manpower however somehow have a lot of industry, similar to field hospitals.
How do you designate certain equipment for certain divisions? Such as I want 5o use more than one type of light tank. One for recon another for my divisions?
Tbh yeah. Sometimes just for fun i play germany and because they used them I made armored cars, tanks, best guns, some air, navy........, even super heavy tanks at the end of the game.... and also at last railway guns
There would be a break even point somewhere in the middle of that division template where the benefits of the MP support company balances against the savings. It would be interesting to see exactly where that point is. With a full stack it's clearly the best option. Then the single horse is fine. In fact any number of horses is fine as it's all the same, 1 horse or 20 in a group. But when you add that support company there has to be a point where the number of units starts to break even with the cost of the support company. edit: Well I tried to figure it out but I just don't know how to use the command console properly. I have the game started and took poland. deleted all my units of all types. I can't get the numbers to make sense. Not sure if I need to have the troops Im assigning on the ground or what. edit 2: Yeah I can't make heads or tails of those numbers. The manpower goes up and down depending on how many tanks I add, the infantry equipment also. I'm starting to think those numbers being reported aren't perfectly accurate.
Excluding manpower and losses due to resistance the break even point is between 5 to 6 cav battalions with mp (1939 mp tech). Losses shift this further to more cav battalions (7 to 10 depending on the existing level of resistance) as support equipment is quite expensive compared to infantry equipment. Anyways you should only spend the army xp to update the garrison template when you have finished the doctrine tree and the army spirits. These are much more important than having a slightly better garrison template.
The best garrison is no garrison, release the nation as a puppet, and switch dockyards to convoy spam. The bonus is, that these satellites can later be continuously suppressed, in case of Poland, can act as a temporary shield if You choose to take all of it, they receive free civs and mils from generic tree, and iirc in the peace deal, choosing to give them their cores is cheaper point wise. I was also wondering about the viability of befriending Poland and choosing to pressure all other states diplomatically and then couping.
@@red_seven_also why would you ever use tanks for garrison? I would kinda understand it if you got some of them cause wars and stuff but comparing it to cavalry its just pointless 😂
@@galilelollel9658 they have better suppression than all the other alternatives while being incredibly cheap in terms of IC per suppression. Also they have high hardness which causes them to lose very few manpower and equipment because the attack of resistance is calculated as soft attack. You really don't need to use them as calvary is good overall, light tanks are just better and save IC and manpower which can be useful if you go for a world conquest as a nation with low manpower and no puppets to drain garrison support from.
Does anyone know where to check Garrison Casualties? Edit : Nvrmind, finally found it... I've been playing this game since 2016 and didn't know that the game keeps logs of garrison casualties, until I saw it in one of feedback's videos...
Wow that's a nice point Also trucks are cheap to mass produce and you will be making a lot of trucks anyways so it sounds like a viable option for a garison template
Motorized Infantry costs ~130 IC compared to the ~50 IC of cavalry. It even does 2.2 suppression (10% more than cav) but uses 20% more manpower while only having 10% hardness. Not a good trade.
@@STAIR_WAY14 Absolutely not. If you want to use an extra production line just for the purpose to fill garrison templates then use light tanks. They're cheaper than trucks, require less manpower, have more suppression and much more hardness. Trucks are garbage for suppression. I guess even bare infantry would be better. And it wouldn't even cost rubber...
@@red_seven_ yea right, I never said trucks were the best, but just better than raw horse if you have a decent industry to fund it. I never said they were better than WW1 light tanks or armored cars. Horse still stands strong tho, my go-to together with civilian oversight. That can win anything
You okay dude? You're talking hard stats, cool, and from that side it wouldn't, as my choice of words 'head cannon' would imply i like to RP games and that's all that comment was, a small bit of light rp, a moment of whimsy/ levity if you like, nothing else...
Germany gets the perfect garrison division for free. They get the Austrian Schnelle Division after the Anschluss which is just 4 cavalry battalions with no support companies. You really should not look a gift horse in the mouth.
One of the main reasons for using tanks its because its uses 500 manpower per battalion, horses uses a thounsand, so the meta depends on what you looking for, if you want to save manpower then you better going with the light tank template, if you looking for optimizing the production cost on the short-run, then you better going with horses, but if you looking for good IC saving on the long run, tanks have hardness, what mean you will loose less of them, on the long run you will spend less on tanks
RU-vid keeps recommending hoi4 videos so I decided to check the game out again. I selected it in my library but before downloading I checked the steam page for DLC.... 3 new DLC's for $55 and two of them are rated "mostly negative". Reviews say they want $20 to add 4~ focus trees to countries that are not majors and apparently add a bunch of annoying micro management mechanics and missions geared at experienced players only. ya... nah I think I will stick to other games for now.
Tbh, I didn't buy the dlcs. This game is way cooler in game then on the videos. Also donr buy the dlcs, buy a monthly subscription in wich you pay 5 dollars a month or I think it was 11 for 3 months. That way you save yourself like over 150 or 200 dollars......... not to forget, the developers will out out more so its just not cost effective to be honest. But thats youre decision for me it is such a great game that i decited to buy myself a better PC for it and some other games but primarly for hoi4. You can try it out and see if you like it more with dlcs or not. Sometimes i play it without then cause they got to much content so that I just want a chill round without anything and just the normal game chill base.
I think hes not really well. You can see compared to his other videos, that he is a little bit less active and also more quiet. Sometimes humans put some makeup on them so they dont look like crackheads. Stress is probably a factor id say. Because if we look at our society, its really what plagues us.
