@@zweisit is and but i mean ancient tomb was also there. For perspective cavern of souls was a 7 and tomb a 4 in a scale where they just ranked cards in top 10 style.
I actually think the fetch lands are significantly better than the duels. The only difference that duals have to shocks is two life, and while they are still incredibly powerful, the ability for fetchlands to fuel graveyards, shuffle at instant speed, and be whatever color whenever you need, they can even be card selection with the new surveil lands, i think whay fetches do is much more valuable than what og duals provide.
Yes fetches are way better duels would be fine and important but only one in a hundred cards without them with them they're easily 5 to 11 copies in a Deck
Mana Confluence gets stopped by Yasharn though. Also City of Brass is a trigger so you can still tap it while at 1 life if you have a way to win at instant speed in response to the trigger.
Honestly I like Gemstone Caverns a little better than Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, because when you top deck it with an empty hand it still provides you with a resource you can use. The other two are absolute dead draws with an empty hand AND they trigger Rhystic Study effects and are awful into Rule of Law effects.
I think it depends on what type of deck you are playing too. Turbo decks, particularly ad nauseam decks, will prefer having the rocks, as you only get one land drop per turn.
Cam is 100% right on Forbidden Orchard. It is a 1. I have never felt good about using or including it. I have cut it from every single deck I play (RogSi, Atraxa, Sythis, Krark/Sakashima).
In the MTGO vintage cube, you definitely pick fetches ahead of duals because triomes also exist. Fetches are a tier above duals in priority. If triomes aren't in the cube, it's much closer.
The new york knicks are named after knickerbockers. It refers to the style of pants dutch settlers wore...pants that rolled up just below the knee, which became known as "Knickerbockers", or "knickers.
Gemstone Mine's quality definitely hinges on your strategy, I think. In a Turbo deck, it's an easy auto-include. Once you start going towards a slower Stax strategy, it falls off pretty quick. Great video!
Few months ago I have cut Forbidden Orchard from my Prossh list, BUT, since I realised how good early game Defense of the Heart can be (to find 2-piece creature combo) so I put Forbidden Orchard back to my deck and it works- for me, at least.
We need a second part of cEDH lands. Y’all missed so many playable and potent lands- and you even name dropped some (Otawara, Gaea’s). Personally requesting the inclusion of Plaza of Heroes
I love how there's more disagreement about lands than any of the actual spells discussed in these podcasts. Rating playability of all 5 colors worth of spells? Easy. True Duel Lands? We riot!
Other lands I really like are the Slow lands. I do not play them in all decks, but in two color decks and non-turbo three color decks they are good. Most of the time they come in untapped.
In cube you usually want to take fetch lands before dual lands, not because they are necessarily better, but because they are in higher demand/lower supply. There are usually shocks, tiomes, and now surveil lands that can all be paired with fetches.
Forbidden Orchard griefing your opponent's Tymna draws and Ragavan attacks is an upside that y'all are missing. Is it as good as Mana Confluence? Probably not. But it's pretty solid.
without dual lands and shocklands, the fetchlands would not be nearly as powerful. Tapping a land for one color on turn 1 and another color on turn 2 is where this combo really shines. It's such an old combo and so commonly used that people forget just how powerful it is. If you are new to Magic, the first 20 cards I recommend picking up are a playset of shock lands and a playset of fetch lands, Oh and a playset of original dual lands if you can afford it. You can say "yeah I just started playing Magic, so I only have 30 cards in my collection so far, but that's almost a third of the way to a deck!!"
well... if you are new to magic i think most people don't even know if they'll stick for it for a longer time. maybe the also just play very casually... and then telling them to spend about 100€ on all fetchlands + 100€ on shock lands isn't what i would tell them... that's a 200€ investment for a game you might not stick with for longer. get a precon and check if you enjoy it first.... also before spending 200€ bucks on 20 cards is still not something i would recommand, rather buy a printer with that money and suddenly you can have all you ever might want. i personally would only tell someone to buy them if they wanted to collect cards or just really really dislike playing with proxies. the only real cards i have are about 3000 commons which i just use to put them into sleeves with my printed cards so it acutally feels like a cards and doesn't wobble around lol
@@dekina1198 Hopefully, if someone is new to Magic, they can be given a box of commons, and enough basic lands for 5 mono-colored decks. Casual 60-card formats still exist, but I would recommend that players start with 40-card decks, since a brand new player's whole collection is basically a limited sealed pool. After building up confidence with these casual decks, they could go on to play sealed and draft at an LGS. The value here being the experience more than the cards themselves, but for budget reasons, I recommend cube drafting for new and old players alike.
@@carlospadilla7247 exactly! I do think that the surveil lands will see a bunch more play in budget decks going forward now that we've had a month to try em out.
I run a handful of the pain lands that also tap for colorless in my Kenrith deck for one reason, Eldrazi Displacer. You need colorless mana to activate his flicker ability, and he's my backup should I lose access to Emiel. Eldrazi Displacer is also nice because you can us him to tap opponents' creatures if need be, something Emiel can't do.
I’m almost embarrassed to say how happy I am when I see a new PTW video is out. Then I get nervous that it’s gonna be about casual or something not really cEdh.. then when I see it’s a cedh topic??? Super happy. Thanks so much guys. Keep ‘em coming ❤️❤️❤️
Forbidden Orchard in 5 coloured Turbo deck is very good. Also it can be used to give other players spirits for block when they are attacked. In my cedh playtime i got a bunch of ragavans, esper Sentinels and other X/1s with this.
i feel like the print count and prices of each of these lands should had been mentioned. Because let's be real, if the land can enter untapped and provide you with options of colors, it's going to be more valuable and sought after than a land that would enter tapped especially since right now we only have about three cards available in the game right now that allows lands to enter untapped.
cEDH is a competative format, so you play the best cards you have access to, and the format is so proxy friends, 300 bucks for a dual land isn't worth it if you are not looking at collecting. instead buy a printer for that money and you have all your cards you ever want
I think forbidden orchard is fine if you don't rely on attacking and are pip intensive. Handing out blockers against Tymna's and Najela's should end up more relevant than the tokens being used some other way because them being used as blocker should come up a lot more. I'm currently running it on a midrange Jan Jansen deck.
Prismatic Vista is good in a Blood Moon heavy meta where you are always fetching for basic lands. Hermit Druid players don't play it though. Gemstone Mine is only good in super fast turbo decks where you actually consistently try to win on turn 3. Forbidden Orchard is for 5 color combo decks where you don't care about board state, you just need consistent mana to combo off.
It's funny because you would think the value of Pain Lands would go up, just as another avaliable way to use "Null-E-Blast" when it comes out. But to be honest you're only countering multi-color lower tier commanders. Most high cEDH commanders get around this like Nigelia, Sisay, or Yuriko. But it will be valuable for Kennan after a turn cycle, or if you're lucky Atraxa. Counters culling Ritual. So not having blue and stopping some early turn 3 play with a pain is not that bad. Pains will feel better in my Abzan control or Voltron Boros because of Null Elemental Blast.
In Breya, I play all the painlands due to their interaction with Forsaken Monument. Forsaken + Basalt Monolith being the important combo. (Also talismans matter more, mishra's workshop, etc)That gas only deck that tries to win immediately is the exception though.
Brainstorm is such a great card. I'm thinking of putting it back into my cEDH list. You're only really supposed to cast it on the turn you win. Gotta hold that Brainstorm as long as possible. Same with Time Walk.
@@dekina1198 Why do you think Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage? Should it be unrestricted? What would that do to the format? Brainstorm is a great topdeck late game in a deck where you have extra cards in your hand to shuffle away with a fetchland. Tutors are much better than card draw in a 99-card format, so maybe Brainstorm doesn't make the cut in most 5-color decks, but if you're playing 1, 2, or even 3 colors and you're not playing Brainstorm, you might be missing out on a late game card draw opportunity.
Gaea's cradle - 4.7 creature decks play this card Reflecting pool - 4.1 bad first, can't color fix. Still great (I love this card and am rating it higher than it should probably go out of personal bias) Triomes - 2.6 just run a surveil land in this slot Reveal lands - 1 bad don't give your opponent free info Buddy lands - 1.8 only run in 2 color decks, meh
I've killed a player with a City of Brass by blinking Derevi (Emiel + Cradle). But other than this sort of niche interaction, City of Brass is better than Mana Confluence.
I'm a little suprised by your opinion on the Prismatic Vista I find that to be at least a 3.1 at least Personally, I will have at least a few basic lands in my deck for various reasons and having something that can deck thin or shuffle the deck can be useful I do hate that it's pricey though
The price of the original dual lands I think should put them below the fetch lands due to accessibility issues and the fact fetches have no suitable alternative, whereas we have shock lands as replacement dual lands.
99% of the cEDH community is totally fine with proxies, so instead of buying a dual for 300€ you can also just buy a printer for 300€ and have all cards you ever want (to a little of extra expenses for ink and paper)
forbidden orchard is also meh if your deck wants to connect with creatures. like najeela tokens get blocked, tymna decks doesn't want them because you wanna connect to
To play devil's advocate, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a spirit from forbidden orchard for anything useful in my entire time playing cedh. There's always one deck in a pod that just doesn't care about having spirits or is way too behind for it to matter. There's also the upside that I've seen many times where people give away spirits for free to keep a tevesh from getting to the ultimate lmao. Idk maybe I'm biased because of the decks I play against all the time but I don't think it's bad.
Did i completely miss it or were the triomes completely skipped? In a three color deck i am picking triomes up over surveil lands unless it combos with something
yeah, sure. but appart from mono white decks i never see land tax in cEDH and even then, it's more used to kinda trim your deck to draw your important cards more often
Hi, coming into play tapped makes them too slow/not optimal for cEDH. A 3-color deck already plays 3 duals, 3 shocks, 7 fetch lands, Command Tower, Mana Confluence, City of Brass, Exotic Orchard, Gemstone Caverns and few other 2-colored, that comes untapped (like Battlebond ones or Modern Horizon ping lands). Then there’s handful of utility lands and triomes just don’t make the cut.
color fixing in cEDH is really good even in 5c so them tapping for 3 colors isn't a huge boon. That small benefit doesn't outweigh the drawback of them coming in tapped, even if you just run one in your 99 and then fetch it when you aren't doing anything else. That last scenario has also been taken up by the surveil lands, so there really isn't any place for them.
having a turn 1 play is pretty important in cEDH, especially if you have faster decks at the table. so having lands that come is only okey if there is another upside. and tapping for 3 colors isn't enough imo. i think the once that are fetchable can be played in exactly 3 color decks. but appart from that, they mostly only see play in budget lists
I think gemstone caverns can be overrated. While it’s a great land when it’s in the opener, if it’s not it’s almost a dead card in certain decks. For example I like to play Niv Mizzet but I don’t play gemstone because I depend on my colors way to much to risk it not being in my opener. Once I get into 4-5 color decks it can also be a little sketchy depending on your color count.
only ever saw it in 2 color decks. having a turn 1 play is pretty important in cEDH, especially if you have faster decks at the table. so having a land that does nothing on turn 1 hurts
i personally see Cavern of Souls as a utility land, not just mana. it's good if you play with some sort of tribal, like winota would but appart from that, there are not many decks that play it. maybe in tivit or atraxa to not get your big mana payoff countered. but i see it in no other decks. i agree about gaea's cradle tho
The "Knicks" in "New York Knicks" is short for "Knickerbockers". It's a name associated with the Dutch settlers of the area that later became New York. As for "kn" in general, just weird language evolution stuff. /shrug
there is an episode about utility lands. this one for specific just for mana lands. "WHAT'S THE BEST UTILITY LAND IN cEDH? - THE PLAY TO WIN PODCAST" about 9 months old
I have actually started cutting Gemstone Caverns from my lists, unless it is a turbo deck. The reason being that you only see it in your opening hand once out of 70+ games. And if I mulligan to 4 or 3 I do not want this land. In a turbo list it is necessary, otherwise it is not a good card in my humble opinion.
i personally only have gemstone caver in either decks that want to be really fast OR decks where the commander(s) have card draw to make up for the disadvantage
Fetches are definitely better in 3+ decks because it finds all 3 colours while duals only have 2 colours If i could choose og duals or fetches id pick fetches and take shockes instead
Unfortunately you can't Vamp Tutor and Surveil it into the graveyard cause you'll just shuffle it away. When your opponents do this make sure to let them and then put your chuckle on the stack.
@@Logic-cg7qy I'm an idiot, crack the fetch, get the surveil, trigger on stack, hold priority and vamp tutor. You're right, don't know why I missed that.
