The Best Touring Kayak of the Year?? | P&H Virgo Product Review 

Thanks! I appreciate it!

Thanks Shannon! I appreciate it. And yes... I'm looking forward to trying some more P&H kayaks now! I was really impressed.

Glad to hear it!

My pleasure. After trying the Virgo, I'm looking forward to testing other P&H kayaks! My expectations are high! :)

Thank you! Will do!

Thank you! It's nice to hear that the videos are helpful. I'm enjoying doing them as well.

Thanks Jeff! I'll tell you what... the wait was worth it for the Storm! What a beauty paddle.

Thanks! I think I'm back to normal... whatever normal means. :)

My pleasure! I was at Canoecopia for the first time this year as well. Great show! Hope to see you there next year!

I was looking at a P&H Virgo, but settled on a Sitka LT. They're both great boats. The plastic used on the Eddyline's is probably more UV resistant than poly over time. Thermoformed kayaks also weigh less than poly boats. In this case about 7 lbs lighter. I don't believe you can move the seat on the Virgo where the Sitka allows you to move the seat to trim the boat. The P&H is not as expensive as the Sitka. Availability of boats these days seem to be the big issue if you're looking.

@@filbilly I love my Sitka LT. Great boat.

Thanks Rick! I would love to review more of these types of kayaks. You're right in that getting review boats of this nature has been very tough. I'm hoping that the companies see these gear reviews as valuable, so that I'll be able to get my hands on more of them to test next spring/summer. We'll soon see!

Rick, as someone who has actually paddled a Virgo MV and LV, and owns an Eddyline Sitka LT. I can tell you this- Around where I live (Lake Erie), Eddyline's are just "pretty boats". People buy them, are disappointed when they want to get further into paddling, and sell them. I am trying to sell my Sitka LT and it's hard to get anyone to buy it. American Northwest kayaks (Eddyline's) are known for having a lot of keel, hard chines, and symmetrical hulls. If you enjoy more challenging waters, this will not be the best kayak shape to be at ease with. If you want to glide and look pretty, Eddyline is what you want. If you want everyone to tell you your kayak is pretty, buy the Eddyline. But what I can tell you about Eddyline's marketing is that it's all kind of crap.... they reference "Greenland" influence... but the majority of people do not actually want a Greenland kayak, they are very difficult to use, but it appears that Eddyline customers are not aware of this. They talk about points of contact and fit, but when you do proper paddling which uses leg drive, your seat will move backwards on you. The seat twist screw will not lock the seat in place- they will tell you to put star washers to make it lock, which still won't work. Some people put screws through the seat and into the seat rail to make it stay-negating this sliding function all together. Also they talk about how you can move the seat forward and backwards for trim.... but it doesn't stay in place anyways, and more to the point, think about this: most sea kayaks do not let you do this...there is a reason. So let's say you are out on the water and conditions change, and you want move the seat, you have to pop your skirt off, move the seat and reset your footpegs while out in conditions....sounds risky and not easy to get those footpegs adjusted becase you have to unlock them and move them with your feet then relock them....while exposing yourself by having your skirt popped off. It's just a gimmick for marketing, and you won't do this in the real world. And once you have moved your seat, your leg braces don't move with the seat, so it's a different feel at that point. Also Eddyline rear decks are really high up, so laying back on them is very hard to do even with their accessory back band. You can't lay back at all with the stock back rest as it's very high- which also may require the use of a high backed PFD. The kayak is simply not for advanced maneuvers involving anything lay back related. I feel that the Sitka LT was "nervous" and harder to control than the Virgo. I would not put a Virgo and Sitka LT in the same category. I feel that the Swede form Virgo is more capable in rougher waters. Eddyline skegs work reliably, while P&H are not reliable and need constant maintenance. The Virgo has an actual usable low rear deck to lay back on and easier to re-enter the kayak from the water. The Sitka LT is going to be lighter and shinier, but I doubt as capable as the Virgo. The problem with P&H in The United States is that they are really not represented that well as Pyrhana (the "P" in P&H) is the USA rep and you can't get all of the P&H accessories in America, so you have to buy third party accessories from Seals or other companies.... which are decent brands by the way.... you just won't get the direct support as the UK gets. P&H's are more "tested" designs it appears, just look at Eddyline's owner's photos vs P&H's owner's photos. The people in the Eddyline's are typically laying back, not in proper paddling positions, and almost always on flat water. The P&H owner's are out on the rough seas and circumnavigating countries and talking about 8 day straight adventures on the ocean. It's a stark difference! For the $2400 Eddyline is charging, the P&H Scorpio would be a much better kayak and suited for rough waters for about the same price- also known as one of the best "all around" kayaks made. Don't get all caught up in the ABS molded shiny kayaks, there are only 2 companies doing this..... the top 3 real sea kayak brands P&H, NDK SEA Kayak UK, and Valley, do not use these materials. They use the traditional -repairable- materials like fiberglass, kevlar, and carbon fiber... and in P&H's case with their rotomolded kayaks, they can be plastic welded for repairs. When things go wrong with dropping an Eddyline, they can shatter, and that is the end of it's life- a minor repair will be very difficult to match up nicely and will be an immediate eye sore in comparison to the rest of the kayak. Traditional kayak layups (fiberglass) are designed to be repairable when something terrible happens. Just as a sidenote, the bulk of the people that I paddle with largely own P&H's and NDK's, with a couple of Valleys in the mix. There are a lot more Wilderness Systems on the beginner end out there. There are very few Eddylines. I wouldn't say that an Eddyline Sitka LT has a similar purpose to a P&H Virgo at all.

@@akirarex Thank you for all this! It’s not clear from my post, but I do have a Sitka LT. Last spring, after a couple of years with a recreational kayak on flat water, I decided to try to “up my game” with a more capable boat that could better withstand weather and help me grow as a paddler. I was unable to demo anything because of COVID and researched online, drawn to the ABS boats because of lighter weight. Honestly, I didn’t have enough paddling experience to get much out of a demo anyway (and probably still don’t). I got a Sitka LT just before everything got sold out. I like the LT, but much of what you’ve written wrings true. The seat won’t stay put. The foot pegs are sturdy but difficult to adjust on the water. The decks are higher than I expected. I found the seat back to get in my way and replaced it with a backband. People compliment its beauty! For my use on inland waters it really is miles ahead of my rec kayak, and I enjoy paddling it. I haven’t come close to reaching any limits on the LT yet, but I can see from your post that it will probably end up as a transitional boat if I want to get Into heavier water. It’s rare to get this kind of perspective from someone with experience, so thanks again for your post.

Stay tuned! I'm about to test the new composite Virgo! Can't wait.

Great to hear you're happy with the purchase! Thanks for sharing!

Cheers!

Awesome to hear! Glad I could help!

Thanks Miguel! Glad the videos have been helpful!

That's great to know!

I like that saying! :)

Agree 👍 been called a paddle snob.

But you don’t only date it, you sit on its face

Great to hear, and thank you for sharing! Happy paddling.

Great to hear it was helpful! I don't think you'll be disappointed with this boat!

Cheers!

I've heard many people mention the Eddyline Sitka series over the summer. I'm looking forward to testing one of those kayaks at some point soon.

Great to hear you're paddling again, and enjoying the Virgo! Thanks for sharing Martin! I haven't tried the X500 yet, although I can't wait to do so. Have a great 2022!

Edward, which of the two has better cargo space? Does one have larger hatch openings than the other?

Thanks! 👍

Well put! And with that... enjoy the fall paddling!

There is a glass version of this boat.

I am looking forward to trying some Delta kayaks. I've never had the opportunity.

@@PaddleTV I have a Delta 17 I could make arrangements for you to test out.

Just got mine today. Feels as amazing as it looks.

It's been hard to get my hands on sea kayaks to review this year. Everything has been out of stock. I'm hoping to test a bit more higher end gear over the next while though. Cheers.

I value truth above partiality, so I’d really enjoy your comparison of a pygmy wooden boat and the premium synthetic models that are more abundant. I love the portability/paddle-ability ratio of the Pygmies. So seaworthy, but eminently manageable for the single paddler, in terms of loading and carrying.

Thanks Richard! I haven't ever tried a Pygmy wooden kayak, although I do love the looks of them. I can definitely see myself building one at some point in the future.

Delta is your boat! If you are over 5'10" I'd go with the Delta 17. The build quality is superb, a totally high end product thousands cheaper because it's thermoformed. Same for Eddyline. Thermoform is considerably lighter and STRONGER than composite (weak) and rotomold. (tough) I dropped mine from the top of my SUV right on the bow and no crack. It is abrasion resistant, has the sharp carved lines of a composite, glassy smooth finish, and light weight.

@@keithmoriyama5421 I've been eyeballing the eddyline's from a distance (I don't want my Boreal to get jealous!!) :-) i'm having trouble with my elbows, mainly from carrying the kayaks, and not from paddling (though, it doesn't help). my doctor told me to lay low and give my arms a break. but, kayaking season is too short as it is...ain't gonna happen 'til winter! 🙂

285 on the HV references max paddler weight, not total capacity

@@Cornpone really? I can have more pizza and take some gear paddling? Woo hoo! What’s the total capacity on that puppy, if you have it at hand? I’ll scrounge around for that.

Cheers!

Small... but fun!

You're absolutely right. The Stratos and the Virgo are similar style boats. The Virgo is about $500 more expensive, but it's lighter and better built. For example, the thigh hooks on the Stratos have a lot of bend, while the thigh hooks on the Virgo are reinforced and are ultra-solid. There are a lot of little upgrades on the Virgo. Both great boats!

@@PaddleTV Over here in the UK I found a dealer selling both and the MV is only £46/$64 dearer and the HV £150/$208 dearer than the Dagger 14.5 which is the same price for S or L versions. So would probably have gone for the Virgo had they been around at the time I got the Dagger. Not enough difference to change though. Regarding the braces I liked solid ones when competing in slaloms but I don't think there is too much difference in control between ones with a little give and hard ones which people feel the need to pad when paddling in shorts. P.S. I still have my original copy of The Playboaters Handbook bought around the time I got my Perception Whp-It.

Thanks Craig! Ask, and you shall receive. I just did this one for you. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JxltHqHfECo.html Ok... maybe I didn't just do it for you at this moment... :). Cheers.

It could work, but it has limited stowage space. I think you'd be better off going with a kayak that gives up some performance and has more volume for storing gear. The HV version of the Virgo would have more space, but I'm not sure how much more. You could also go with a slightly longer sea kayak (15' - 17') that has good storage space. The P&H Scorpio and the Delta 15.5GT are worth looking at. So many to choose from! :)

Totally! That's exactly how a kayak like this should feel! That's the difference between a recreational kayak, and a performance kayak! Enjoy!

@@PaddleTV My Virgo is on order! Can’t wait to get it and get out there. Now i want one of those Lendal Paddles as well…Hey i work hard so i deserve it! :-) Finding one in the UK isn’t quite so easy though. Any ideas?

I would definitely choose the Virgo. For two reasons. The outfitting is much firmer, and provides better control, and the Virgo just seems to carve more smoothly. It's a slightly higher performance boat. I don't know if you saw it, but I tested the Virgo on some real whitewater this past fall. Here's a link - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sPMQWfsxh0o.html. Happy paddling!

@@PaddleTV Well your input is enough to settle it for me then. Now it's just down to the Virgo or the Prijon Enduro. Your videos really help me with decisions when demoing isn't an option, and I've passed that on to manufacturers. Let's get your butt in a Prijon!

Hi Kelly. Good question... the 14.5 wouldn't necessarily be too short for Great Lake kayaking. It depends on what you're doing. If you plan on covering a lot of distance, you might want to go for a slightly longer kayak. I'm about to head down to North Carolina to test the P&H Leo, which is a 16' kayak, that is supposed to be very maneuverable as well. Something like that might be a better option for you. It comes in 2 sizes, and so the smaller one (MV) might be good for you. The flip side is that at 14.5' and with plenty of rocker, the Virgo is highly maneuverable for a sea kayak. If you do a lot of surfing on the Great Lakes, this might be the right choice. What kind of paddling do you typically do on the Lakes?

@@PaddleTV thanks for your reply! Well, I'm just starting to paddle Lake Ontario, and surfing is really only decent in the fall, from what I hear (or nowish, but I'm not sure I want to get splashed in the face with these water temps :) So 3-4 day backcountry trips, day tours, and surfing when I can. Perhaps a Scorpio is better for me? Or the Leo, as you mentioned. I'm 6', 170, so probably MV?? Or upper end of LV?

I couldn't agree more! Kayaks are a great thing to buy used, and it's also great to know when you buy a new kayak, that there's a good second hand market out there, in case you decide to change boats.

good question. I would say they're both around the same speed and stability. The Virgo is more playful though. It carves better and is a bit more maneuverable. It also has some small 'upgrades'. For example, the thigh hooks on the Stratos are very flexible, while the Virgo's are firm, which gives you more control for high performance paddling. Even the grab handles are a little better on the Virgo, as I had one of the grab handles break on the Stratos. Basically, you get a slightly better made and slightly higher performing kayak with the Virgo, but that's why it's almost 50% more expensive! Both are GREAT! It's hard to go wrong with either.

yes, you can paddle any touring kayak without the skirt if in calm flatwater and if not putting so far on edge that water comes in the cockpit.

Why would you want to? It's safer with one and you cant get the best out of this type of boat without one. There are more suitable boats for people not wanting to wear a skirt that are slightly wider and have a higher back deck. You won't be rolling or edging without a skirt so don't need the low back deck as much.

As Josh says, no problem padding it without a skirt in calm water. It would be better to go with the 'bigger' size if that's the case. It will be a bit more stable and offer a little more freeboard.

Exactly what I am wondering. Just bought new Stratos 14.5L. Love it.

@@Cascadians -love mine too mate

The Stratos and Virgo are very much in the same class. The Virgo is about $500 more, which is a chunk of change! What you get for that $500 (in my opinion) is a lighter kayak, which not only makes it easier to carry, but improves its performance a little (faster accelerating, easier to turn). The Virgo also has some 'refined' design elements, like the reinforced thigh hooks, the skeg control system, and the day hatch in the bow. Overall, they're both great boats, and I would be totally comfortable (and happy) taking both boats into most paddling conditions.

@@PaddleTV great feedback. Now if I could only find one of the two.

@@PaddleTV Thanks for the comparison. The skeg control does seem much better on the Virgo, and I really like the sail hole already made. Would have to paddle them both in same hour to compare. Stratos has better colors! Manufacturers tend to play catch-up with better features so the future looks bright, if the world can survive long enough for production to resume. Really appreciative your videos and responses.

Awesome to hear!

Glad to help!

:). My pleasure! Really... it was a pleasure to paddle it. Look forward to testing more P&H models! Cheers.

Ah yes! I paddled the Trident a lot when it first came out about 8 years ago. It would be fun to test it out now, as I'm sure it has changed, and I now have more to compare it to. Cheers!

You're absolutely right Mark. I didn't understand this myself until after I did the video. I was fooled because one of the other differences between the MZ3 and CoreLiteX is that the skeg on the MZ3 is a basic Rope & Cleat. For some reason, I interpreted that this was the main difference between the two.

It can surf and roll.

I have no doubt that this kayak would be great for wave surfing and for rolling, even though I didn't test either. Yup... I regularly use the peroxide trick. It works very well as a preventative measure, or if you catch it very early.

The Volan and Virgo do share some similarities in paddling performance. I love both of them! They give up some top end speed for maneuverability, but that's what makes them so fun to paddle!

Plumb bow turns into a submarine at times.

@@PaddleDogC5 That really depends on the hull design. I have an Epic 18X with a plum bow, but it picks up buoyancy rapidly. However, it's designed to surf. My CLC 17 has a raked bow that's really stable and tracks better, but she really pounds when going into waves. Neither of them maneuver well in confused stuff like British kayaks, but they do cruise better.

P&H was ask about their "PADDLER WEIGHT" their response is that's paddler and gear.

@@PaddleDogC5 Thanks for checking! The HV model looks like it's rated for 285 lbs....and bigger feet. However the HV adds more width along with its height. Still, they're handsome boats.

@@wisenber my Current Designs Solstice is rated for 450 lb.

If you're looking for a kayak that will perform significantly better than your 10' rec kayak, and are willing to give up a little stability for it, this could be a great choice! I would recommend going with the HV. It will feel a little too big in the cockpit area, but you'll gain stability from the extra volume that it provides for your weight. While I don't want to push you away from this kayak, a good intermediate step would be a 12' sit inside recreational kayak like the Wilderness Systems Pungo, Jackson Kayak Tupelo or the Liquid Logic Saluda (which I just tested 2 weeks ago and really liked). These boats would be a major performance upgrade from the 10' sit-on-top, but they are easier to handle, easier to transport, and a little more stable. That being said... I love the Virgo, and so if you're game for a big jump in speed, it's a great choice!

The kayak I used was a sit inside kayak would that change your recommendation? Thank you for your response.

Hmmm... I would go for the large if you would prefer to have a kayak that had more space , knowing that you're going to give away an little performance (edge control and such). I think the MV will fit you fine though, if you want a kayak that feels a little 'sportier'. Leg length was my biggest issue, and I've got long legs.

@@PaddleTV thank you for your reply. Yes I’m thinking the large is the better option . Many thanks

I'm 6' with 34" inseams. Curious what you would consider "long legs", enough to bump up to the larger ones?

You don't lose too much when going from a 14' to 12' of the same model. The general characteristics are typically the same. The 12' is likely just a little slower (but more maneuverable), and has less load capacity for multi day trips. The flipside is that it will be a little lighter and easier to transport.

I love kayak camping, so because of the lack of capacity, this one is out for me too. Also, regarding the new Kokatat vest, I need lots of pockets for a marine radio, gps, compass, cell-phone, knife and whistle. I currently have a Kokatat vest which holds all of those things.

Yup. It doesn't have lots of pocket space, that's for sure.

@@PaddleTV This one does: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-1yqfwuAsqDQ.html

Try Liquid Logic’s 14.5 Inuit. Similar boat & BIG foredeck bump. Good big guy boat! I don’t think it’s in production now, but plenty on the secondary market.

Why?

Haven't tried that one yet, but I'm looking forward to now!

@@PaddleTV they all seem to be fairly similar. Just interested in the scorpio for the higher capacity.

Thank you! Cheers!

Unfortunately, that seems to be the battle with most kayaks these days... I know that Appommattox River Company is a P&H dealer in Virginia, but it doesn't look like they have it in stock. It's worth giving them a call to see if they can bring one in www.paddleva.com

I've paddled with whales and Sea lions, which is amazing, but intimidating. I haven't had any scary encounters with sharks. When paddling with whales, I tend to knock my kayak with my paddle every few strokes to 'let them know I'm there'. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do, but it makes me feel better :). With sea lions, I just give them LOTS of room. Sharks... keep your feet in the boat if you're paddling a sit-on-top water :)

@@PaddleTV I used to paddle daily with my huge Newfoundland dog right next to sea lions. They will leave you alone if they know you don't have fish. If you are fishing, sea lions will follow you and try to steal your catch, even jump into your kayak.

@@PaddleTV thank you! Fantastic to get a response from a prestigious youtuber :D!!! I have been nervous ever since a sea lion followed us for nearly an hour staying on a few feet away then juped out of the ocean at us as we docked 😅 as a begginer it was very nervewrecking. Thank you!!

I would love to as well. I've tried contacting them to get a review boat... hoping to hear back at some point.

There are dealers throughout the US. If you go to the P&H Sea Kayaks website, they have a 'dealer locator' feature. The bigger question is whether or not there is a kayak in stock! It seems impossible to find kayaks in stock these days.

I had the same question as you. The answer I got was that it has the capacity to hold a paddler up to 220lbs, along with any typical gear a paddler would take. This kayak doesn't have a lot of storage space, and so it wouldn't be the right choice for a big expedition. It could handle all the gear a 220lb person would/could bring for a short kayak camping trip. Not a perfect answer... but the max capacity that you get from most kayak manufacturers are just estimates as well.

They are harder to find in Canada, but they are available (on normal years).

@@PaddleTV well MEC claims to carry them but they don't. And there is absolutely no brand support in Canada.

We have P&H in vancouver at coast outdoors

@@karenthibodeau6528 Canada is a very big country. A couple of dealers on the west coast does not make this brand readily available in Canada. Even though we have the Great Lakes and seakayaking is popular in Ontario, there is very limited access to most high end seakayak brands, even Canadian brands like Seaward. There are some brands available though, I bought a Zegul last year. I'd would think about trading up my 14' Venture for the Virgo if they sold them in Ontario.

I hear you. Weight is a real factor. Even though this isn't a heavy boat compared to many other kayaks in its class... it's still a big and heavy object to load and unload.

I haven't seen any composite at that price point. Sub 3000 is basically all plastic (rotomold or thermoform) new retail only

There are value composites on the market these days. I found a comparable composite for $2400 on the second site I searched for.

@@nunyabidness3075 Please share these then as I haven't seen any new inventory composites below 3k CDN

This is the "Corelite" model, which is P&H's term for their plastic-with-some-sort-of-foam-in-the-middle. So yeah it's not carbon composite, but is stiffer and higher performing than most single-layer plastic kayaks. (There is a single skin version available, for a couple of hundred $ less.) Homeboy in the video didn't mention this but it's why it looks pricier than a normal plastic boat.

@@thisisstupidtoo Does it look pricier? It is pricier, and it seems light weight for plastic given it’s size (I haven’t researched that). Carbon composites are generally lighter though. I’m all about weight. The other reason I prefer Carbon composites is longevity. I paddled with a guy the other day who was in a ten year old boat that looked nearly new above the water line. He could easily sell it for more than he paid, and ten years from now still will be able to do so.

It's a 14' foot touring kayak with rocker, and so it's not going to track as well as a longer sea kayak without rocker - and so I guess it's all a matter of what you're comparing it to. For a 14' kayak, it tracks well.

@@PaddleTV you bring up a good point regarding the more pronounced rocker.

Can you explain why you think it's biased? What are the poor consumer assumptions?

@@PaddleTV limitted test area, small lake, no wind, no current, no competition to compair to, he loves and slices, he loves everything, come on!! give me a break. I own 5 kayaks 8 canoes, 22 inch width and stable, but not everyone else will gague them like me because of body size,experience, and feel factor. Boat and bike does the best reviews of kayaks I"ve seen here with two or three boats compaired.No one boat fits or suits everyone like every shoe is unique. I think the representation here is insulting.

Every review by every reviewer is biased. These reviews are much better balanced than the sponsored ones.

@@jonbrouwer6578 take a course in consumer annalysis and read consumer reports

​@@jayglass5831 making a personal attack on a person on your assumptions of their knowledge only makes one look foolish.

Why?