THE CASE FOR FEMALE SPACE MARINES: 28 Mag Challenge! 

Another great video Ian! Interestingly my 7 year old daughter has started playing 40k this year and has created her own successor chapter to the blood angels (the Peace Angels); she just assumed half of her marines are female (she has named many of them and made character sheets for some of them). My son and I didn't want to correct her and neither did our local GW manager when my daughter was painting/playing in the shop so her chapter is mixed gender. Her female lieutenants wear helmets - so do her male ones. It really makes no difference!

" _I guess that my female Space Marines could be from_ […] _amazon planet_ " - so, does that mean that they have terrible working conditions, or that they're often deployed for union-busting..?

Many hobbyist forget that they can do what they want with their hobby. They do not have to wait for GW to give them permission to make a female space marine. I have been in this hobby for 30+ years and I have encountered a handle full of female space marine players over the years. I've never witnessed other players making fun of them or refusing to play the army. This fixation with gender inside a Grimdark fantasy game has been a bit odd to me. Everyone can make their arguments for or against, but at the end of the day the hobbyist has the power to make their vision come to life. That is the true power.

I personally think that all space marines, (regardless of what gender you decide to make them) should just wear their damn helmets. Doesn’t matter what gender you are because even in the grim darkness of the far future, safety should always come first.

Since I couldn't find anyone mentioning this: isn't one of the main aspects of the power armour SM wear that they can be mixed and matched together however available anyway? Basically so that if need be a marine could replace a broken piece of armour with one from a fallen brother? So even from a logistical and logical perspective female SM would wear the exact same armour as their bretheren. My headcanon is that there had always been female SM but no one could tell the difference and they are referred to as brother as well internally just because it's the traditional way of addressing each other. "Brother Maria will be in charge of fotifying the 32nd district."

I've developed a fascination for one of the more obvious forms of this toxic masculinity, and that being Male Disposability. The most famous example of Male Disposability is "Women and Children First" aboard the Titanic, followed closely by the fact that only men are registered for the draft. Mad Max: Fury Road loves playing with this theme as well. We are naturally predisposed to seeing becoming a Space Marine as a privilege, hence our framing of the question as "Why are only men allowed to be Space Marines?" But being a Space Marine is truly a sort of tragedy, it is a supposed elevation of humanity that is instead a loss of humanity. In-universe, it is an honor beyond all comprehension, but out of universe, we (hopefully) possess wisdom to see it as the tragedy it truly is. If we reframe the question to "Why are women immune to being Space Marines?" the case for female Space Marines in-lore as a necessary element of the grim dark future can be made. As mentioned in the video, the technology nessecary to create a Space Marine out of a female is introduced by the new way of things surrounding the return of the Primarch, and the Astartes are eager to increase their recruitment pool. Being a Space Marine isn't actually an honor, it's a tragedy, and the 40k universe would be enriched by imposing this horror on all humanity, not just men. I suppose the opposite could be argued. One might say "Space Marines are the perfect embodiment of how Male Disposability harms our society and culture and this enriches the satirical themes of 40k". But that prevents me from arbitrarily designating every third helmeted Space Marine in my army as being of female origin, and that's a bummer lol.

Gw should just flesh out the sisters of silence, they're way cooler than space marines and could really use some love. Imagine if they did Cyber Mastiffs, Excrutiatus Squads and Captured Psykers!!!

coming back to this for a breath of fresh rational air after all the female custodes “controversy”

Slightly tangential, but I've *always* found it weird how few-and-far-between the female Imperial Guard models are. These folks are meant to be our Colonial Marine stand-ins - where's our Vasquez, Ferro, Dietrich? Not technically a marine but where's my goddamn Ripley? There's not even a vaguely canonical reason behind this, and it's always bothered me, right from childhood. They don't have to be sexualised, just throw us more female heads please.

With the upcoming release of the Ursula J Creed mini, I think her head would be a perfect example of what you could use for a kitbashed female space marine. I'd love to see GW release more non-conventionally attractive heads like that.

A lot of the comments are making me think that people didn’t watch the video

They are always calling each other brother. We indeed are already blessed with the Sorroritas. Yes, satire. That thing you make a yoke of something. Like i find it a forcefull yoke to make everything inclusive. Sorroritas has the decree passive, making them exclusively female. The Guard is everyone's soldier, female and male. Let the Astartes be a male only thing, for genetic fitting compatability. It makes more sense.

Lovely video covering it all. In general 40k in LORE is far more female represented than many believe, just look at the armies on who can serve as standard: - Space Marines (Male only) - Sisters of Battle (Female only) - Talons of the Emperor (Male and Female, split between Custodes and Silence) - Imperial Guard (Male and Female) - Mechanicus (Male and Female) - Knights (Male and Female) - Inquisition (Male and Female) - Imperial Navy (Male and Female) - Eldar (Male and Female) - Dark Eldar (Male and Female) - Tau (Male and Female) - Chaos (Male and Female, with the sole exception that Heresy era Legionnaire Veterans are all male) - Genestealer Cults (Male and Female) - Squats (Male and Female) - Harlequins (Male and Female) - Orks, Tyranids and Necrons do not have any gender. The issue isn't lack of females in lore. (Just look at the Tanith) The issue is lack of females in MODEL. I don't think it's "required" that Space Marines need to be both to be 'right'. It's just a quirk of the setting, and only forms a small part of the Imperium. If Cawl could figure out how to make females into Marines via the Primaris process then the Imperium in lore ABSOLUTELY would do so. So I'd be fine with that. But I feel people are overfocusing on the Marines side and ignoring how much louder the call for Guard female models should be, where they are far more obvious as females and in lore are a VAST quantity of the force. Yet I can only think of 4 models off the top of my head that are female (Severina, that one random Tanith model, and Warrior Women and Rocket Girl.)

Honestly im just a regular nerd, love warhammer. And I just can’t see any way for female space marines to work. I honestly don’t even understand why when we have the completely badass sisters of battle and sisters of silence. I really don’t see any angry little boy sexists I just don’t get that talking point. It just doesn’t make sense and why!?!? We got the amazing sisters of battle. What we got now is perfect. We got the stronger physically men being the Brutish space marines, and we got this sweet very faith-based, mentallly strong warriors of the sisters of battle. It’s perfect. Why mess with a perfect thing.

Well, to be honest I was a bit araid of this video, but it was well-rounded. I don't think that I am an angry neckbeard or a sexist or anything like that, but I don't want this change to happen. For me, marines are the space monks and sisters are the space nuns, and this is fine how it is. In the other hand, would this logic mean that we need men in the sisters army as well? They are all women after all. And I don't think anyone wants misters of battle :D But of course anyone can convert anything, or create any headcanon they want, no problem with that.

Likely the other former male space marines wouldn’t hold any sexist attitudes either and accept them as fellow warriors. They regularly see traits they honour in Imperial Guard units and on rare occasion recruit them to their scouts. No reason why females wouldn’t get same chance

Right. This is currently my favourite video on the internet. Thank you!

We don't talk about how fucked up space marines look out of their armour often enough. Part of me wishes that instead of just a straight upgrade to old marine models, Primaris would have been like an astartes version of ogryns. Someone's attempt to breed bigger, better humans backfires into a "race" of deformed and basically lobotomised mutants, destined to be abused as draft animals and cannon fodder by their fellow humans.

If you see the 9th edition cinematic you can see GW's strategy here. They are going to raise Sister of Battle to a level of prestige as Space Marines. This way they can have their cake and eat it. Give female characters a killer place and portrayal, don't piss off some of your current fans who will feel you are bending to outside pressure. You also have 8 foot tall Sisters of Silence. There is a ton unsaid about them. They will eventually be revealed as being a genetic engineered creations. Why piss off a chunk of your fan base when you can already have spaces for really evocative female characters? There is no win for them to having Female Space Marines.

to me its not about misogyny or hating on women, but rather the exclusivity of the factions - they've made SoB 'almost' like space marines - including ridiculous war suits. Why mix it? I know SMs are poster boys of the franchise, but maybe Sisters need just a bit more spotlight then? We have all male faction (SM), we have all female faction (SoB) and we have mixed ones (IG) + Mechanicum which can discard gender alltogether and Assasins, which can be fluid to some degree. Its a perfect balance in my opinion.

For a lore perspective I think you hit the nail on the head in your previous video; 40k is less of a cannonized work and more of a setting. GW is free to say what they wish but *far* more importantly so are you. If you tell me your white scars army is all female under the armor then sure. I think it'd be far more interesting and useful for GW to give us female guard. From a model perspective I'll never forget something the friend who got me into the hobby used to tell me. I had asked him if it was OK that I was using all beakie helms for my vanguard vets in my Raven Guard army because it was the aesthetic I was going for. He told me very plainly, "Never let anyone ever tell you what to do with your toys, they aren't spending the time to build and paint them, and they're yours. You do whatever you like!" It's stuck with me and I always pass it on.

I have no problem with female space marines IF there is a female primarch. 1.All the lore problems that arise stem solely from the fact that the primarchs gene seeds induce mutations that overwrite the human genome with those of their primarch, the primarchs being male means that someone with an XX would be overwritten into a XY. You could start as a female but you certainly wouldn't end as one 2. releasing female marines that would be socially coded as intensely masculine qualities would not sell particularly well, meaning they would want to sell them as attractive female coded which is kind of antithetical to the astartes aesthetic. So from a purely financial standpoint supporting and producing a range for niche of a niche is a bad idea. This becomes a non issue if they take after a female primarch. 3. Just accept that some people won't like your custom lore pieces, and do what you want. My chapter is the result of an emperors children astartes jerking off into some salamanders geneseed batch, making the guilded serpents a green and purple colored chapter of greedy reptile loving marines. I respect the opinion of anyone who thinks my homebrew chapter is dog water and would poison the lore if added.

i watched this again after being reminded of terry pratchetts 'monstrous regiment' (very good novel, might even be something for your bookclub) aaaaaaand anything id write would be a spoiler ill just say its kinda fitting for this debate

I once adapted the sisters of purification for a female who wanted into a deathwatch RPG game. “As the upgrades to become a space marine were designed with men in mind the mortality rate of female recruits attempting the upgrade was found to be significantly higher than with the men… eventually it was deemed too high, therefore conventional astates forces were ultimately banned from drafting/recruiting women. Sisters of purification are sisters of battle who decided to prove their devotion to the emperor by attempting the highly dangerous procedure to become astartes. Due to the low volunteer rate combined with high fatality rate the sisters are a constantly understrength unit, never being able to field a full ‘chapter’ of personnel.”

The most obvious reason is as mentioned is that they would look almost identical, if you take female bodybuilders who obviously run testosterone they begin to look and sound like men, this is women who've started taking gear far later in life than prepuberty, so to begin the conversion from child to astrates as a female they would be almost indistinguishable

If the narrator can be wrong, this means the Squats are coming back. (I'm not weighing into the female space marine debate, not my fight, I just want my f___ing Space Dwarfs dammit GW.)

I’d personally rather the Sisters of Battle get more attention instead of more space marines

So what you're basically saying is that a female space marine is... nothing special... just another bulky abhuman in armor. What's the point of that then?

This video is well-researched. Despite the difficult topic, your message is clear and on point. Ten points for Gryffindor!

We already have female space marines they're called Sisters of Battle and they're hot

I think you were too quick to dismiss the satire argument. I don't see what justified the 'but this shouldn't stop us' conclusion. Just because the lore grew out of trivial 80s market decisions doesn't mean that the lore as it stands, with its satire, isn't worth preserving. There's a risk, isn't there, of watering down the horror of the Imperium if these kinds of changes are encouraged?

IMO: occasional appropriate head swap on a character model. Don't think it'd be unreasonable for a few space marines to have less rugged aesthetic looks, it's more common in certain chapters such as Blood Angels.

easiest argument against female space marines remains: 1) the selection turnout would be close to zero, and that's just bell curve performance, since they are selected from the most right performance quartile -> there is nearly no overlap.. 2) testosteron? how female does a female space marine remain if continually being dosed with more androgens than the average powerlifter pro?

I dislike token female armies and would like to see more mixed-sex armies... but I tend to interpret Space Marines as scifi 'Warrior Monks' and Sisters of Mercy as scifi 'Warrior Nuns', so the gendered approach seems unobjectionable to me (I'm not attached to it... but it just seems to flow from that conception of the army). That being said, I also like the idea that female Space Marines are like female dwarves in LoTR... maybe they've always been there, but maybe you just don't notice that a massive seven foot superhuman that can crush your skull with one hand (and is mostly seen entirely encased in power armour) happens to be a woman (because Space Marines don't even look human, gender is not always obvious). Space marine lore also seems like a big missed opportunity to me as well... if you tell me that these superhumans are based on the genetics of twenty bioengineered primarchs, then I want to see twenty entirely unique biologies... not just the same idea over and over with tweaks for flavour. Maybe one of those superhuman armies is formed up of huge bulky hyper-masculine 'Warrior Monks', but is it necessary for the other nineteen to be the same? There's got to be other ways to design a superhuman.

This is everything I've been saying for year.... if you want females space marines....have Female Space Marines. how is having more choice a bad thing? they did it for storm cast and missed the tricked with the primeris for 8th. Also sisters are awesome in their own right with their own flavour so why not both?

Ian - I do not agree with your conclusion. First of all - you are not being fully honest here - If female space marine would virtually be the same model - then what's the point of their exictence? Why do you need female space marines to a genderless person that every space marines essentialy are? And then - the very next step for such models to be distinguished is to objectualize - so boob-hair-waist-makeup. But we closed that route. So what's the point? Especially that Rouge trader era demale marines ARE OBJECTUALIZED - they had boob-hair-waist-makeup - so argument of their existance is also invalid. Why someone that wishes for female space marine - can't just assume their helmeted marines - are females? In my opinion - there are no substantional need to make specifically female space marine. Instead I would prefer further development of a Sister of battle - with more armoured warrioirs with boob plate or not (because why not? Why female can't look like female?) Not to mention that using real world logics into warhammer is flawed by default.

I played Eldar, and I loved that the Eldar Guardians (at least the 90s metal-ones-with-plastic-arms) had some female warriors in the mix - but the aspect warriors were all male, except the all-female Banshees.

I cannot agree more. This is a common discussion I've had with friends and seen online for years and I think that GW kind of dropped the ball by not just saying that the work Cawl put into creating the Primaris meant that female aspirants were now possible. Even if taking old lore into account where I'm pretty sure they stated it had been tried but failed and said there was still a high attrition rate in the conversion, but now there are Astartes that started out as base female. Astartes are not human, they are post-human or supra-human. And there was always the kind of idea floating around that they were quite possibly eunuchs/castrated (whether that be chemically, psychologically or surgically), redundant organs removed and replaced as part of the process of being turned into purely a living weapon. My thought was not just that they are Agender/Asexual, but that due to all the invasive physical and psycho surgery they are pretty much beyond gender and sexuality; and Astartes that started out as female would not change this in the slightest. I also do not think we need feminine/sexualised armour to tell them apart, because they all go through the same horrendous and brutally invasive medical/surgical/psychological procedures to turn them into the huge malformed monstrous killing machines they become and side by side you probably couldn't tell them apart. Standard Astartes Power Armour throughout. Although I don't think they are male or female, I still think they lean on the masculine as part of their warrior monastic "brotherhood" as social construct/structure. TL;DR: Cawl fixed it, there are marines that started out female, you can't tell them apart because they all look a bit frankensteins monster and wear the same clothes; and they all call each other bro just because! PS, This is just my personal head-canon on this well trodden subject. For anyone out there that doesn't agree or does want feminine looking female space marines or still doesn't want them at all, well you do you. They're your toys. Take care folks, happy gaming/hobby ;)

I’m currently working on a home brew chapter and am planning on incorporating female models alongside the standard male heads. My thinking is it helps to make them unique and breaks it up depending on the size of the army if you have uncovered heads it doesn’t look like you have a bunch of clones. Still working to flesh out the background though. Anyway love your videos, you bring a well reasoned argument and level head to discussion of these topics. Plus you don’t sound like statistics professor and have production value which always helps.

Personally I'm a fan of space marines being all Male because I like how they are coded as a all Male warrior monk order. Simular to how I like how the adepta sororitas are an all female order of warrior nuns and it would take away from the feel of them if they included males (sisters are my favourite faction) I really do want more women in 40k. More gaurd tau and eldar models as female. But I feel you loose the whole teutonic/ templar knights feel. I do love the satire of 40k and I dont want it too disappear i guess. I'm open to other oppions and I hate the sexist arguments against female space marines.

Hey Ian. Followed your painting for many years on dakka dakka. Blundered into your RU-vid channel and I am *really* impressed. Clear, concise... couldn't ask for better. Going to recommend it to my 40k buddies. Keep up the fantastic work!

I love your solution: "they would look the same as a male space marine in armor". I think that this illustrates just how wrong many of us are about the "ramifications" of having female space marines, ie there really wouldn't be any ramifications at all.

Idk It makes sense imo that women are rare in the Guard and aren't Space Marines. It makes the setting more believable, they would prioritize making males the "warfighters". PDF's I could see having a higher population of women as you don't want to export your civilization's lifeline as it were. It takes two to tango and all but women do the heavy lifting. I also like the glib utilitarian feeling it gives. And as any over-committed nerd would say "It's been established continuity, please, don't change it.🤓"

I know there are a billion opinions but might as well add one more. I think it's all down to effort. Kitbashes like The Great Clean One or Loyalist versions of Traitor marines are still incredibly well done despite not being Canon™. If someone wants female space marines, go for it, it will maybe diversify the hordes of primaris slightly which is always a good thing. Lore wise, you could always use the canon of the second primarch being a women and go from there but I doubt there will be official minis. Love the video by the way Ian

This is the first I've seen of anyone saying there should be female space marines in a way that wasn't a joke. I've been involved with this hobby for a decade...

Anyone in favour of female space marines is missing a major point of the Imperium, namely that it's a very obvious send-up of catholicism, which has highly gendered ecclesiastical roles. Space Marines aren't male-only because of some contrived lore reason, they're male-only because they're a stand-in for monastic orders. They're warrior monks. And monks are exclusively male. Sure, you can make an argument that they take other cultural influences (roman legions, crusading knights, and so on) but these historical influences were also exclusively male. Why argue for the inclusion of progressive 21th century egalitarian sensibilities in a society very firmly based on the most oppressive parts of medieval Europe? What does that achieve? How does that make the setting better or more interesting? The fun of 40K is that it's The Holy Roman Empire In Space, rather than just another version of "What if Star Trek was grimmer" ala The Expanse/Stargate/Battlestar Galactica/Babylon 5 etc. The setting being hyper-masculine to the point of parody is part of its specific aesthetic and part of what sets it apart.

I have a weird relationship with how I view the possibility of female space marines. I'd say it's just that I don't trust GW to do it right but that aside I have no problem with people kit bashing female marines (be they realistic or 'stripper' in design) and I have even included female marines in a fan reworking of the setting with a different set of 40 legions (but I digress) where I'm trying to explore different concepts, one of which being female marines. I've taken an approach similar to that stated in the video where 90% of the time they look just like male marines the remaining 10% are those who just look more like their Primarch who in fact is the only one who is meant to look conventionally attractive and even then that's more in a Fulgrim sense sense than anything. I'm still trying to find a theme for them as I want them to be more than FemMarines

Thanks, Arbitor Ian. The materials you provide are tremendously valuable for my perspective. I was a stanch believer in no-girls space marine chapters, because I believe unique traditions can be restrictive, therefore creativity has to work around it and produce unique outcome. Such as ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have "men army" due to its infamous civil war, and they opt for women only army. I think that is archaic, unique, weird but fun narratives to work around. What do you mean no men army? how about a personal retinue of preachers, archo flegallents, crusaders and peninent engines? the borderline scrapping the law and making inquisitor twitches is interesting narrative. That applies to space marines as well, the boys club be boys club. But what about their chapter serfs? What if they have no librarians due to genetic luck, they have to utilise a sanctioned psyker, astropath, or navigator. May be a rising engineseer, assassin, sister of silence, inquisitor, a wondering knight to compensate their already diminishing forces. You present very well about GW's perspective and its business orientated conundrum in its 80s. I think it's an interesting creative process in that time, and certainly, it will be an interesting process in the future. cheers.

What makes you think you could tell the difference between a male or female space marine? All the mods happen before puberty so why would breasts be encouraged to develop on a non reproducing combat individual

I feel like we deserve story where there’s one one token space Marine; armor less; chapter less, who’s stuck around normal humans and learns to be a human being again. It’s writes itself really.

One of the core ideas that has carried forward from the Rogue Trader days is that your army is your army; you do what you want with it. While GW are the arbiters of the official cannon they have ,very consistently, left the door wide open for players own interpretations (you essentially pointed to this in the video all be it in slightly different terms). So if people want female Space Marines they should make them as they see fit, which I guess is the point behind the 28mag challenge. As for asking GW to make it cannon that Space Marines can be female I think this might be missing that previous point; that your cannon is greater in importance than official cannon. Where I do think there is a bit of a genuine grievance is lack of appropriate female heads and other parts (for a number of ranges) maybe we should be looking at third parties or the community (STLs) to create the heads you suggest in your video, if GW won't or can't make those? The only thing I disagree slightly with in your video is that I don't see that making female power armour look different to male power armour is an issue. If female Space Marines look exactly like their male counterparts then that just seems a little boring honestly. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for thongs, but some differences to denote that the person underneath is different is too good an opportunity to miss for the sake of realism (which isn't really a driving force behind 40k anyway). Great video Ian, keep 'em coming and can't wait to see your take on the subject!

Someone tell me that Vasquez from Aliens isn't a space marine missing her power armour. I've been playing since Rogue Trader and can't see arguments against female space marines as anything other than guff.

I'm a bit late to this but according to the lore the reasons for no female space marines are this. 1. Male horomone levels are necessary for successful implantation of the geneseed (This is why Astartes are recruited in adolesence not childhood) 2. Even if that wasn't the case candidates need to be in the .01% of the .01% of humanity physically speaking in order to have a chance to survive implantation. That means that candidates who could survive the process would almost universally be male due to human sexual dimorphism. 3. The limiting factor in creating Space Marines is not lack of candidates but lack of geneseed, which means due to reason 2 that even if a female candidate could be found and successfully implanted, the juice would not be worth the squeeze due to the geneseed wasted in order to find her. There's already a purely female power armor wearing faction in the Sisters of Battle. Women are included in every level of the Imperium except in this one instance, female Space Marines add nothing to the 40k lore other than ticking a box on a DEI spreadsheet. As an aside there do need to be more female minis but that's not a lore issue that's a GW issue.

You could have a bald headed screaming space marine male face, just don't paint a 5' clock shadow on it. BOOM women space marines :) I simply don't know. Use a sisters of battle helmet? I guess? On terminator armor? Paint it like the sisters of battle or silence with a few of these, boom entire female army.

Really informative Ian as usual. Love how much you know about the lore and commercial decisions etc. Which is kinda what I assumed happened in the first place. I’m still not 100% for adding them but this video really put forward all the reasons to add them in a great way. Ultimately, it’s not really a huge change now primarines are about and surely given the state of the imperium right now, being able to double their genepool would be a game changer! I kinda just don’t like that people who aren’t for it get labelled very quickly as sexist neckbeards. People can have reservations about changing the lore, (even if there’s counters to those reservations), without it being politically motivated or involving misogyny. Ultimately if there’s a big enough demand, GW will follow the money! Thanks again! Good luck in the competition!

If "recruited" as children and augmented in the ways described, I seriously doubt bodies assigned female at birth would grow breasts, menstruate, or become pregnant. All of those things require hormonal activity in the body that Astartes probably wouldn't have. If Marines are given testosterone in their enormous cocktail of drugs, an 8 year old girl could grow up to be an 8 foot Space Wolf with full beard. Looking at it from that perspective, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference, and they would just call one another "brother" because there's no differentiation. It's possible that Angron was born female.......

For me... I don't like to have a female space marine... instead, I want the sister of battle to be more diverse in their own way or expanded further. Its like, if space marines are exclusive for men then fine, so we might as well fully use the sisters of battle's gender exclusivity by giving them more diversity and additional development of their lore.

I initially was adverse to the idea of female space marines but the more I thought about it the less it bothered me. This led me to the same conclusions as you. that all the growth hormones and all the training would result in a similar body type as their male counterparts. Like you said; Space marines are functionally asexual. Reproductive organs are superfluous and breasts for example would likely be genetically modified into more muscle tissue or other more meaningful organs. Again I agreed with your conclusion that they would look functionally the same as any other space marine, possibly with slightly more feminine facial features for the ones without a helmet (also likely battle scarred variations). If they add them to the setting I hope they remember this and that they don't sexualize them. I also hope they add more female variants to imperial guard, again with armour and uniform unchanged for standard guard, maybe with more female body types for less bulky uniforms (like the Catachans) for example.

I agree with many of the topics you bring up here. Space Marines are post human really, they are even described as such. They're taken prepuberty, pumped up with stuff and organs and so on. To me of course there could be female space marines, they probably just don't look too much like a regular woman we would recognize does. Features being hardened and such, to become an ultimate weapon. Just like how the male space marines are not typically human either, they've been enhanced beyond belief.

One very simple and very pragmatic reason for why there is no female space marines is that space marines are designed to be perfect warriors, so that include the fact that they need to have the stronguest bodys and males are naturally physically stronguer than females, . PS : Sorry for the broken english, i am not a native speacker.

I would rather more Sisters of Battle players than more Space Marine players.

An assumption of something from a young child who doesnt known the lore doesnt change the lore regardless, what you're asking for GW to change when they already have sisters of battle and the reason why ...it just doesnt begin to equate.

I actually saw a shapely female Inquisitor with curves put on Terminator armor and basically look no different than any Grey Knight running around in one of the comics; I think it was called ''Will of Iron'' and it involved a female Inquisitor hunting down a rogue Dark Angel.

I really dislike it when activist say the "fans" what something, because its disingenuous. The fans want Sisters of Battle, it's the activists who want female Space Marines - who look exactly like male Space Marines, making female Space Marines entirely pointless.

THIS IS GREAT!!!!!!! xD... I think a hobby is and the community around it is ever evolving, changes or updates in the lore/setting shouldn't be a problem I have to confess to Arbitor Ian, you are my favorite WH 40k channel since I found out of your existence, well research topics, well edited, to the point, clear and not exaggerating anything, you treat the hobby with great care but not unconditional devotion, I like your historical notes about previous editions, business decisions, "changes" in the lore, evolution of the market, and all of it... I really didn't know about the satirical connotations of the setting in its firsts editions, something lost in history and translation from fans I know in Colombia I just want you to know I also discussed your videos with editors and writers (not fantasy inclined) in my country and they found it very interesting, most if not all of them assumed that many things about the business and IP creation process were completely different but found out they were pretty much the same I have learn so much from your videos, that I actually more interested know in the setting than in the last 15 years I knew of its existence... hope the best to your modeling challenge sorry for rambling!!, I just think is great work, keep it up I will surely keep watching all your new videos

I would think an option would be more diverse Sister of battle models. Some more sister regiments like the guard with some sisters in robes or less ornate armor or maybe some more Primaris sisters or maybe some even more ornate armor. There a lot of different kinds of zealotry in the universe so they could have all sorts of different religious symbolism and inspirations.

very good points. a headswap is all you need unless your marine wears a helmet

Oh dear, as well as my last comment disappearing, there is still that whole matter of allowing hobbiests EQUALITY as well. Equality to enjoy a hobby. Equality to relax with a hobby. Oh, have got to female Space Marine this because someone is telling me to, is hardly a nice thing. Please let us enjoy our hobby!!!!!

I just wanted to make sure you know that while the lore says we can't have "Female Space Marines" that doesn't stop us from having Women & Nonbinary Space Marines they just have to be AMAB Transpeople. Until such time as we can have AFAB people included which I really think should have happened already.

The reason for why not is a simple biological one already stated in the lore. the real question is why are people obsessed with them? I agree female power armoured warriors would be super cool....... oh wait....... they did that The only reason for making space marines female is to satisfy the anti sexism crowd. Dont give me the sexist little boy nonsense, sororitas are super popular and everyone agrees there should be more sisters of silence too and more female guard would be cool to have. Why is it ok to have a full faction of all female battle nuns, but the moment we say in the lore space marines are just men people have an issue. Its a setting of unfair, biggoted space murderers, why are people trying to make modern day progressive moves? You start doing that too much and you get rid of the dark charm of the setting

I honestly couldn't care either way. They could bring back Sanguinius for all I care. So long as what ever is done, is written in convincingly. I'm sure Cawl could do it to be fair 🤣

The way that you deconstruct arguments and then construct solutions is very refreshing. Could GW not just assign one of the lost Primarchs as female??? This would be a great twist.

Another thing about hight. Space Marines are giant by Terran standards. By Martian standards they would be tall. Human height would be greatly influenced by gravity conditions during development.

So I will admit to being opposed to this in large part due to not wanting to change the canon. Not because i'm sexist but because I am just used to it the way it is and the aesthetics as established are really nice. That being said! While I don't really want female space marines and think the justification for there being none is adequate I do actually see a case for female custodes. Space marines are mass produced based on established male genetic templates, so yeah I get them having to be male, particularly when technology and science are as backward as they are. But Custodes aren't made that way. Each one is basically hand crafted genetically, it's all done to the most exacting standards and the technology is far more advanced. So the explanation for space marines shouldn't really apply with Custodes. I get that we already have the sisters of silence but logically speaking I feel female custodes are perfectly reasonable, there probably wouldn't be many of them but making like a character or two who are pointed out as being female and mentioning it happens every now and then is fine I would say. Female space marines are also redundant in my view as the Sororitas are all female and at the same time have their own unique niche and characteristic in the lore. I've heard impassioned cases from Sororitas fans that makes female space marine is boring since they would end up just being exactly the same as male space marines and not unique but the Sororitas have their own special orders, their own rules, their own history, their own abilities. Having them as the foil of sorts to the all male space marines strikes me as perfectly fine.

The Philip Gibbering art, from his own website, is his fan art of what he thinks an Astartes should look like under their armour, and even though he's worked for GW it doesn't reflect what the Lore and background says they look like. Especially as his armour lacks all the systems, cabling and other materials you'd find between the outer layer of power armour and the wearer.

Well isn't Sisters of Battle female space marines in way, there have been said that you can just say there are a female in the power armor, another argument was made once that a female that would go though the space marine process would end up looking like the males.

I’d like male sisters of battle. Come on not every faction needs to be all inclusive. There are several factions that don’t consist of all men. I think the fact that Astartes are a brotherhood is part of their identity. Why remove that?

The inherent problem with female space marines is twofold. 1. Back in the day being a soldier was basically being male in our heads. Even to the degree that the inclusion of the SoBs was "super progressive". 2. The current agenda does not really want female Space Marines. You have made it very clear that they would basically be the same as a male marine, and I agree. They would, most likely be the exact same, down to growing a beard because of the hormones. But the current agenda does not want female Space Marines, they want *feminine* Space Marines capable of the same feats as the conventional ones. That however would be a lie, just as it is a lie that any female is the same as a male. For a Space Marine, they are neither male nor female. As you said, it can easily be argued that they are not even human anymore. So all in all I have to agree with your argument. Still, I'm old and I like the SoBs as their own thing, devoid of men just as much as I like the SMs as purely male. IF GW were to integrate SMs with XX chromosomes I would not be against it, I just would like them to be exclusively female orders and physically incompatible (different gen seed) with their male counterparts. They would look the same but the gen seed could not be mixed etc. obviously because the genetic setup would be XX...

Space Marines are grafted with genetic material of theirs primarchs which were all men, so in order to have female space marines you would need to have an female Primarch and then you would need to rewrite the lore. You could write in that Guilliman decided to make his own primarch, which was a female and that female space marines was grafted from that primarch. Guilliman is probaly the only one with perhaps enough knowledge for it.

If you're going to have female SM then it stands to reason (if we are trying to eliminate any and all gender boundaries and eliminate sexism in 40K) that we have to have Sisters of Battle whom are men. Silliness. Femininity and masculinity can both be a part of 40k and we can celebrate their differences as being equally important but with different roles.

"How much does it change the setting?" Quite a bit. One of the most distinctive ways Astartes talk to each other, is by addressing each other as "brother.". "Battlebrothers", "Brother Chaplain...", "Brother Librarian...", "Brother Captain...", etc. It'd completely change the dynamic they have amongst themselves if you have to start throwing "Sister" into the mix - it could also get pretty confusing with Sisters of Battle already being an army, especially in books that feature both female Astartes and Sisters of Battle. I don't see why people need this, Space Marines and Chaos Marines are the only two armies that're male. Everything else has females in their ranks (Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Chaos Daemons, IG.), are genderless (Tyranids.), or are literally just fungus. If it were to be done, though - yeah, they wouldn't be too different - just look at female armour throughout history, it's pretty much always identical to male armour in design, I doubt they'd be the same build, though. Sexual dimorphism just means men are able to put on more muscle mass than women, so I doubt they'd be bulked out as much.

Here's my thing: I think that introducing female space marines into the setting would detract from the Sisters of Battle. The SoB are bad ass ladies that don't NEED no fuckin' enhancements. The fact that they aren't enhanced makes them *way* cooler than all the ISMs (even the Salamanders) and almost as cool as the CSMs. That's my only issue. I guess it really comes down to what the tiny amount of female WH40K fans want out of the setting. If they want full equality, then female space marines are the way to go. If they want to hold on to something special that's even cooler than space marines, then GW should just stick with SoB. Either way, as long as the fluff isn't cringey (she's got help), I'm here for it.

I really dont understand calls for female space marines. There is already a female power armoured faction (which I own an army for, because they're cool), I don't see how also retconning in female space marines will do anything other than further divide the hobby and cause more internet drama. Arch low-key can't wait for GW to do this- it would be great for his channel. Why feed the trolls? Warhammer is for everyone, not just the radical types who demand this sort of thing.

If you want female space marines, then let’s have male Sisters of Battle😀

Ah yes, shilling and insulting anyone who disagrees all in the first 10 seconds while blatantly disregarding both settled lore and logic. You should be ashamed mate. If ypu want to make a case for the subject start with logic and lore reasoning, if you cant do this you are probably wrong. And for the record, previous wrongs are not a motivation for further wrongs. It is just another wrong

I don't believe in "female Space Marines" as a concept, but I have no trouble with someone making their own. If I were still a kid, I wouldn't knock that, and would probably be impressed and pleased. Making your own thing is entirely in keeping with the spirit of the hobby. However, that doesn't mean there are no problems with women Space Marines. The first big thing is: why? Why have female space marines unless sex/ gender is important? The video argues that Marines are asexual so, effectively, "why object? what's the difference?" The trouble with this is, if sex isn't important to Space Marines, then what do you *gain* by inventing female space marines, who are exactly the same as the male? If sex/gender IS important, though, you're automatically conceding that arguments against female space marines might have legitimacy (you can no longer bandy around words like "sexist"). Furthermore, you're stating that female space marines bring something *different* to male space marines which poses the question, "what is a space marine?" The second big thing is that female Space Marines conflict with the "lore". It's a problem with all made- up worlds that, as the creators increase the specificity with which their world is described, they simultaneously reduce the breadth of possibilities within that world. At this point, having female space marines means not merely adding to, but radically changing, a universe. So we don't merely gain, but we also lose. Is it worth it? [To be fair, the video does suggest that they could be a 'new' invention alongside Primaris, which - fair enough - wouldn't have to mean the deletion of any existing lore] Additionally,, we have "Sisters of Battle", a female aesthetic faction which mirror the "Battle Brothers" of the Space Marines. While in lore, and in rules, the Sisters are human and not enhanced, they have a similar look, their own rules, and, being the Space Nuns to set alongside the Space Monks that are the Marines, the "female Space Marine" niche has already arguably been filled. Warhammer is the battle of the twisted over-the-top archetypes. That's why it's so accessible. Battle Brothers are a male archtype, mirroring historical organisations. Female Space Marines would have to reflect a female archtype of some sort, and nuns were clearly a good match. Finally, the Eldar (and Elf) armies have always been supposed to consist of both men and women. Few factions are, these days, male only (obviously, Orks and Necrons don't really count, Tyranids have no sexes, and I don't know about Tau). Imperial non-Astarte's forces can be whatever you want. The 40k Galaxy is not massively sexist. Rather, some 40k fans are massively intolerant of sexism, which they themselves think it's a good thing, but which in fact leads to them tilting at windmills and which carries all the usual downsides associated with the term "intolerance". Look at this very video. The creator has come to the conclusion that a female Space Marine would be indistinguishable from a male, so what is the point in making the Marine a woman? The only point is an abstract ideological objection to the idea that anything could be male-only. It's just *so* 2022. So zeitgeist. I just respectfully disagree with all those who want women marines.

Your first explanation of "Cawl made primaris geneseed that works on girls" was literally my exact thoughts when I started working on my female space marine chapter project about a year ago.

I'm not the biggest fan of this video, hoenstly. You seem to both paradoxically places it as not important and super important at the same time? If you come to the conclusion "this would change nothing but it needs to happen anyway" I wonder what you've been arguing about. You say no to the idea of lore being important for female space marines but you then use it as excuse for the sisters of battle. I would have liked some consistanty there. I think that saying "why does changing lore matter" is a little frustrating, I think it devalues any empathsis placed into the lore or the story if any base assumptions can be changed at a moments noticed. If tomorrow they retconned it so that the emperor just, got up and left the golden throne after making a full recovery I'm sure it wouldn't be considered good writing. A lot of people dont like primaris marines anyway, so making that the reason for female space marines likely wouldn't make it any more popluar. You state at the end that "if nerds want to have them then the bussiness decision is easy" while you also admit right at the begining that its a contensious issue that a lot of people wouldn't like. You also just call all of these people sexist so, I suppose that helps you with ignoring them. I'd love to see a sorta response to "The Outer Rings" comment about cannon and retconing, he puts forward this take where he suggests that the changes are incredibly small compared to the entire setting for the majority of its existance. I'm sorry if all this gets me labled as "the wrong sort of hobbiest" but I just don't feel this innate need for female space marines to exist, and I find the constant discussion about it a little insane?

For adding them by Rowboat Girlyman I’d be OK with. Retconning in any setting I’m largely against.

OK, I hope this doesn't come across as overly negative, because that's not my intention, but I don't really understand your point. In the first part of the video you argued against the points people make for all male sm but you didn't really make an argument for female space marines either (unless I missed it and if I have I'm sorry.) And in the second part you said that model range wise nothing would change. So if gender doesn't matter to sm, and if they are basically a-sexual anyway (btw. I really love the line "their gender is space marine") and if they'd look the same then why bother? I just don't see any benefit to it beyond being a "gotcha" towards the neck beards, especially since gw encourages you to come up with your own lore and chapters anyway, so we don't need their "go ahead". If it's about the pronoun you could just say, that space marines are reffered to as he/him because thats what the average citizen in 40k perceives them as or that he/him refferes to both the male gender and the space marine gender in 40k, at least that would be my head canon for a custom sm chapter with females.

If you saddled me with the job of 'explain why there are female space marines now' I'd handle it thusly: 1.The Emperor was on a really tight time table to do the Great Crusade. Making geneseed compatible with both genders would take to long as he judged it, he picked males because he had already done some of the work in making the Costodies and could save time this way. When he made the Primarchs, he was basing the template on himself and had no interest in screwing around with it and taking time he didn't require. (The entire biological argument isn't worth going into when it's not required.) 2. Cawl had access to the Emperor's (and his research teams) notes, 10,000 years, near infinite resources and has zero sense of 'is this a good idea?' a lot of the time. During his work on Primarius he took a look at doubling the recruitment pool, since that's a clear net gain. But it would require more effort than upgrading what was already done, so he initially stuck with the male template to work out most of the engineering issues. This is why the legions worth of Primaris he had stashed away were all male. But he saw no reason not to keep going, because +50% recruitment pool is a heck of a perk. 3. Cawl had enough time to 'fully' develop this Type-2 geneseed during the long wait for Gulliman to get back, but wanted a field test on his less ambitious work first. This accounts for the delay in distribution. With the situation somewhat stabilized (so there's time to talk it over with Gulliman) and half the Imperium inaccessible for recruitment, Cawl pitches the Type-2 Primaris geneseed to Gulliman to make up the numbers gap. After through examination and potentially outright asking his father (likely for political reasons) on the subject, Gulliman gives the nod for a new founding. A solid chunk of the new chapters, being derived from existing genelines, want to honor the legacy of their Primarchs. Some of them are outright told 'yeah, we don't know jack about your Primarchs' (This being an opening for traitor legion genelines and the lost Primarchs.) but assured it isn't corrupt. 4. Cawl is still working on a 'Type-3' adaptation to make a universal geneseed applicable to either gender, because it's Cawl and he can't leave things alone. Part of why it's still in process is that he wants to 'upgrade' conventional geneseed rather than make yet a third variant. (This opens the door for later development if/as desired.) In terms of thematic weight, I'd lean into the idea that you have to sacrifice a fundamental part of your humanity to become a space marine. They are universally barren and Cawl never answers if that is by design, or simply something he didn't consider a priority. The contrast between them and the sisters of battle needs to be clear, so I'd lean towards the secular viewpoint on them (Not all, just a trend.) while also leaning into the Sisters considering these marines as de-facto mutants. The Sisters by and large would consider the faith of these marines weak, as they need inhuman enhancement to do what the Sisters can do with Faith and Zeal. By and large I'd have the chapters reactions to them be more of a by chapter thing. The Dark Angels are the paranoid nutjobs they always are, the Ultramarines are indifferent about it, etc. Mind you, if you told me to do the Job I'd also tell you this is an idiotic decision, but if I'm being paid I'll do what I'm paid to do to the best of my abilities.

Well, I hate to be blunt, but in a situation where human lives are a currency women are more important as mothers. If you'd like to add it for whatever reason go for it. But the logic of "it keeps with the setting..." no, no doesn't.

Two of the Primarchs are considered "unknown", "lost" or "expunged"... What if they were the Emperor's daughters, not sons?

I think this is also a valid argument even though its ridiculous... "Removing gender exclusivity somewhat ruin the purpose of having gender in the first place" In different context, yes, I do see how its pointless but it also points out as to why bother having female space marines when it doesn't even matter? If we identify their gender as a main characteristics then it shouldn't be as any different then. So having female space marine can be seen more of a discrimination to both gender appeal. But this would also be used as counter argument to it as to why we should push it more when its possible and it wouldn't matter at all. The argument just circulate itself when presented so I can see why it doesn't brought up. Although, from what I've observed nowadays in regarding with gender inclusivity... people can often see why a sudden appearance of female counterpart start popping out of nowhere, and that is to appeal the audience, which is what people are tired of. Just as mentioned in the video, apparently, it did not sell, so having a female counterpart today would be obviously seen as appealing to newer audience.... which isn't wrong, but people will wonder as to why the decision was suddenly made now, when they've added a lot of stuff in WH40K universe throughout the years and none of them just downright say it. Overall, I think its possible but its logistically too late and GW miss an opportunity in allowing female space marines to be added. People would see it as pandering to female audiences than promoting gender inclusivity.

7:20 I wouldn’t agree it’s toxic there’s definitely emotion and about fighting the fight to protect or save the Imperium same with the Primarchs having child soldiers is well a given in what kinda world it is same with the Custodes but they are far from toxic

The main problem I have with your arguments, which are excellently formed and persuasive, is you attacked the person rather than the issue 'The wrong kind of nerds clutching their beards in dismay?' Not to mention comparing the maturity level of GW's creative team to a bunch of adolescents acting out a fantasy. I recall Robert E Howard was accused of the same (after his death). I honestly think debates like this would ends far better far more often without references like that. Attack the problem not the person.

I mean I would SLIGHTLY disagree on the headswap option. There ARE some badass battle scar lady head options even from ForgeWorld for the Escher Head Upgrade Set and Stormcast Eternals would fit right in for a Space Wolf squad.

Also, at least for now but in my opinion for a very long time, the hobby will remain predominantly male, and having a faction based on brotherhood is a really nice thing. Also I want to say that I speak as a Drukhari/Craftworld/Ynnari player

I don't know where my old comment is but here is the remake answering the video: in-universe: It has been said several times that space marines are always boys because they have more compatibility with the genetic seed because the primarchs are all men and they have very little chance of surviving the process without mentioning the tests they are given. So you ask that the empire spend resources on something that is obviously impossible. retcon: You say it as if it were something minor or an event that can be re-contextualized when the space marines are the poster-boys of an almost 40-year-old IP, the rogue trader game that has an Astarte makes it clear to you that all of them They were born as men. aesthetics: You yourself say that in appearance they would not be very different from the other marines so why do it if you want women in cool Power armor then ask for more things for the sisters of battle or sisters of silence or even inquisitors. fandom: You say things as if it were the popular opinion when most of the comments correct your argument and those are the nicest ones, how about admitting that you are of the minority opinion. politics: With all due respect, brother, if you are the one who insults someone who disagrees with you, something very common in the Western media every time a bad product comes out, you are the idiot politicizing the issue, not the general consumer. PS: If you want female characters with Astarte aesthetics, why aren't you going to Age of Sigmar? I mean, their counterparts, the Stormcast Eternals, have women in their ranks and it's not something in the background. They have figures and official art that makes it clear that they are women.

I think one of the arguments that people dont respect is the very notion of a male zone as it were. We are obsessed with ripping everything down around us in the name of inclusion, yet we still maintain female exclusive facilites and places (such as gyms for example). Many male characters in fiction have female fans, but I would argue are aimed at males, as a way for those kinds of people to engage. Point Im making for 40k and marines is with females in all the other imperial institutions, female marines are not needed anyway. The notion of woman cant get into the game is rubbish on this premis, as they play what they like, and have access to female guard (3rd party companies do even more amazing work), eldar and SoB. Cant we just let things be: let marines be a male club are indroctrinated psycho killers. Let the SoB be holy woman purging all before them. And guard can be whatever you want really, so whatever culture you desire. Also we have the Sisters of Silence as well, and is noted in the lore how marines respect these mortals for fighting so well whilst being unaugmented. I suppose the argument for "why not female marines" also doesnt ask its mirror: why so we need them in first place? And on that last statment in video, I dont think majority want female marines, I would argue its a minority. And all it is inviting in GW to rip everyone off with some overpriced conversion sprue (im looking at you cadian head sprue that increased cost by 1/3)