The Census of Quirinius - Biblical Error #1 

Do you honestly think their video on Hell is good? They literally say "No one in The Bible ever asks to get out" have they never read Luke 13:24-27? Does anyone with a heart really think anything can justify even the chance of people winding up shrieking in unfathomable torment forever.

@@michaelflores9220 in his video “Does God send people to hell” the only thing he says is (the rich man) “never asked to get out of hell”. He wasn’t talking about all people, so your point is invalid

@@UncensoredChristian Nonetheless he and countless other Christians push the idea throughout the video that people in Hell want to stay inHell. Which has no biblical foundations and explicitly contradicts The Bible.

@@michaelflores9220 that’s interesting because no where in the Bible does it imply that God sends people to hell who want to be in his presence. That’s the simplified idea of Hell (separation from God). We can even take your example of Luke 13. It seems that they are wanting in so they can be in Gods presence but that is not the case. If they truly wanted to be in Gods presence for the sake of loving God they would’ve done so before the door was closed. Their desire to enter his presence after the door is closed is driven by their own selfish desires to not be left out. That’s the basic understanding of people who are in hell wanted to be there. Clearly they cared for their own desires more than they did God.

@@UncensoredChristian A trivial distinction.

Oh hey! I just started to watch your videos, and they are really good.

@@TheGaberGuy thanks. If it is good it's grace.

Really? That was it?

@@kidus_1010 What, you don't like happy endings, huh? Didn't you hear? The righteous will live by faith. So, the life of the righteous is based on the belief that what God said is true! Thank You, Heavenly Father, for saving us by Your grace through faith, which is also Your gift to us. Thank You for justifying us on the basis of our faith in Christ and declaring us righteous. Help us to live every day in accordance with Your will, in the firm conviction that everything You have said and commanded is the best for us. We pray in the name of Christ, amen. God bless you

@@drogi1094 No I was just surprised that this little thing was the only obstacle to his faith.

@@kidus_1010 aaa sorry, I thought it was offensive, sorry bro

So how do you deal with the major differences between the accounts?

Thank God that a lot of people have began to see Dawkins for the joke that he is.

From what I've heard Christopher Hitchens is far better.

@@stephendianda1543 Christopher Hitchens was a lot better! Watch his debate videos!

@@michaelflores9220 Hitchens was a good speaker but Harris was the best of the bunch in my opinion but despite the colorful speeches their claims were just as terrible as Dawkins' and I think a lot of people have realized that and that's why these guys are not as popular as they were back in the day

@@stephendianda1543 Terrible how?

you should check out Mike Winger's videos on the historicity of Daniel

You stole my comment 🤔

This video seems like a lot of arm twisting to fit a fake story into a preexisting narrative

He is a professional fraud. Agreed.

@@SilenceDogwood. Both

@@DBCisco Any evidence of this, or are you just calling Mr. Jones a fraud simply for disagreeing with him?

@@thomasecker9405 Yes. Would you like to purchase a copy of my dissertation ?

@@DBCisco You made an entire dissertation about how apologists are fraudulent liars?

What you said makes sense! Thank you!

Your critique is based from a modern perspective when the census systems have been exponentially made better. Watch his other video about the Census, there's historic evidence that the Roman Empire made the same kinds of Census in Egypt.

in my home country, in my lifetime there has been four census, one every ten years. Each time I was in a different city, big and small, and Ive net me a single census taker from the government. You should never ever doubt stupid ideas coming from the government or incompetence on the part of thegovernmen agents. The present perfectly reasonably arguments

Yeah, because our government always does things that are smart. I did a little more research. It seems that Luke was correct. Uncovered historical records verify people returning to their hearth, all of Rome was ordered to participate in the census including vassal kingdoms and the word translated governor does not mean the title governor but someone in a high position with governing authority. Also, not everyone had to travel at once. Most people take a vacation but the economy keeps rolling. They had to complete the census within a certain period of time, not on a specific day. People believe Jesus was actually born around August if I'm not mistaken which makes sense because people would be trying to get the census over with before the crops died so they could buy some fresh food along the way.

IP probably knows this. He's a lying grifter who makes Christian apologia for money from idiots who want their beliefs echoed back to them.

The Census in look referred to the 2BC Census done by Augustus to celebrste his Pater Patriae recognition. He was celebrating 25 years in the post.

No Luke didn’t lie

@@webslinger527 Thank you if that is true IP is wrong.

@@fordprefect5304 what? Ip isn't a lier also what are saying thank u for?

@@webslinger527 I never said he was a liar can you read or do they teach you in bible school. here is Luke from the bible. "Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child. While they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn."(NASB) So Luke lied? There is no record of any census undertaken by King Herod the Great. The Jewish historian, Josephus, does record a census undertaken by the Roman governor, Quirinius, in Syria approximately 6 CE, but that was after the death of Herod and in any case would not have applied to Herod's kingdom. A range of scholarly views about the likelihood of an otherwise unknown census during the reign of King Herod includes: Steve Mason (Josephus and the New Testament) says that the census of 6 CE must have been the first census undertaken by Rome in the region. Raymond E. Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament) insists there was never a census during the reign of Herod: "The best explanation is that, although Luke likes to set his Christian drama in the context of well-known events from antiquity, sometimes he does so inaccurately." Ian Wilson (Jesus: The Evidence) suggests that, by writing of a census during Herod's reign, the Luke gospel's author may have been trying to make it appear that he knew more about Jesus' birth than he actually did. There is a well documented and accepted list of governors (the position that Quirinius held) since well before King Herod. This does not allow for Quirinius serving a term prior to the one mentioned in The Bible. A census was called under Quirinius, Governor of Syria, however this is historically irreconcilable with the reign of King Herod.

@@fordprefect5304 did u just copy and Pace your other comment from the Comments? But Luke isn't wrong so how can ip be

Also with regard to applying this argument to the specific issue of what hegemon means... I was born in 1982. If my biographer wrote that I was "born during the second year of George H.W. Bush's time in power" there are a few possible ways to interpret that: 1. My biographer erroneously thinks that I was born in 1990, i.e. the second year of the Bush *presidency*. Or for some reason my biographer thought Bush became president in 1981 and not Reagan. 2. My biographer is trying to make a point about who the real leader was at the time (i.e. perhaps he viewed Reagan as sort of a semi-senile dotard who left the real decisions up to Vice President Bush and his cabinet). 3. A word was simply omitted (i.e. I was born in the second year of when Reagan and Bush were in power). This seems like something that would have been caught either by the author or the copyists. I'm this hypothetical I attempting to illustrate various ways to interpret what it means to say "Quirinius was governor of Syria."

Also Luke could've just flipped the whole narrative and say Joseph and Mary we're already living in Bethlehem and Jesus was born there. And say that they then moved to Nazareth. A lot easier than making up a census

@@sonoftheking1977 There’s something to that. Why also is it impossible Josephus was wrong and Luke was right?

@@coobest6416 this as well is very possible we know that Josephus got the wrong timing on other events as well.

Rome used to do this in Egypt too. Whether it is logical to you or not does not disprove that something happened in history.

That’s my understanding too. Joseph was a construction worker, and therefore went where the work was. Maybe the whole reason Joseph moved up north to begin with was because their was a temporary job opportunity in Nazareth. So Joseph met Mary whilst he was up there and got engaged. But maybe Joseph always planned to move back to Bethlehem once the work in Nazareth dried up, but once the census was announced he saw it as God nudging him to go back early. The fact that they stayed in Bethlehem for about 2 years afterwards supports this theory.

I think in context one was for governance and administrative matters and one was for the general running of every day matters.

Two things can be true. The Romans could’ve been in process of more heavy handed politically with vassal kings while not being involved in postmortem affairs. My local government is increasingly focused on internet based GIS systems while not being equally dutiful about physical road signs and address markers. In a sense being both more and less concerned with aspects of the same topic. And I’m talking county gov not Roman Empire.

A bit late to the party. But there's actually some significance to why he says this. According to Josephus it was the 6 AD census that upset the Jews. Judas of Galille led a small uprising and intimidated other Jews into not registering for the census. This uprising is probably what led to Rome easing up on their control of the province.

Are you honestly trying to compare a bureaucratic practice of a government to what to do with a single dead body of what was believed to be- a crazy Jew?

I don't see the problem. Joseph of Arimithia got permission to take the body and bury it, otherwise he would've been thrown into a mass grave. We know people knew where the tomb was, an emperor built a temple to Jupiter over it.

That's because we misunderstand the actual word used. It says there was not room in the guest room, essentially, probably because there were too many other family members in town also staying there. So they went somewhere they could have some peace and quiet for the birth. Stables were commonly the first floor of t,he family home rather than a separate building.

@@tayh.6235 Looked that up - you're right. Thanks for clarifying this! "Luke wrote that there was no space in the “katáluma.” That Greek word is usually understood as a “guest room” in a house. Luke used “katáluma” in that exact sense later on (22:11) in reference to the “guest room” where the Last Supper would be observed." Source: www.startribune.com/the-nativity-story-there-was-no-room-where/503358092/

That eas his ancestral home.He himself had settled in Nazareth.Maybe ,he had no close relatives and People had scattered during the exile

The Ansatz. What a concept. Often, only with Mathematician, do many deny that educated guess. So much for e =mc^2.

Including tragically often each other.

It's not clear but you don't get punished for ignorance

Jesus said you don't get punished for ignorance. You aren't guilty until you're made aware of your sin.

@@zephyr-117sdropzone8at the same time man is without excuse, so I would say children are saved until a certain age or threshold and then let’s say a pagan man who is pulling out hearts of captives to the sun God in Central America. He is without excuse as he is a full adult male.

Believe it or not, not all pregnant people are incapable of travel. Also, it's not like they had to stay where they were to be close to a hospital, if Mary was going to give birth, she'd give birth essentially the same way in any place she'd end up.

Additional information

@@InspiringPhilosophy Oh, thanks IP!

It’s an updated version of the first Supposed Biblical Error video, so yes

It would have been a burden that affected more than just personal lives - but commerce and taxes as well. The Romans did not mandate this imaginary census.

@@kevinadams9468 Except, in the second century we have a quote from Gaius Vibius Maximus (Prefect of Egypt), specifically decreeing that people who are away from their districts need to go back and register their household for the census. "The census by household having begun, it is essential that all those who are away from their nomes be summoned to return to their own hearths so that they may perform the customary business of registration and apply themselves to the cultivation which concerns them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the countryside are required by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before " Census' were burdensome, some of them took years to complete. There was an instance where a census in Gaul took about 40 years to complete.

It's honestly pretty funny that he says it with a straight face.

Um, no, it's not disingenuous, at all, if you consider the context of the video. Place of a person's origin does not necessarily mean that it had to be the place where one's ancestors were born a thousand years ago. In fact, as laid out in the video, it meant that an Egyptian person had to return to the town where he/she was born, or as Mr. Jones words it, his/her place of origin.

@@thomasecker9405 It is *very* disingenuous if you read what is being said by IP and what the document actually says "The enrolment by household being at hand, it is necessary to notify all who for any cause soever are outside their nomes (administrative divisions of Egypt) to return to their domestic hearths, that they may also accomplish the customary dispensation of enrolment and continue steadfastly in the husbandry that belongs to them.” So basically "Whoever is outside of your administrative district, return to your home, so that you can be present when the census-men arrive and afterwards continue with your regular duties. The fact is that the Papyrus is saying the very opposite of what IP claims it does. It is addressing those who are outside of their native districts, not those who are in them. It's addressing those who aren't at their "domestic hearths" which can't be interpreted as anything but your current residence. The fact of the matter is that Luke's census is absolute nonsense and it's impossible to defend.

@@BurnBird1 Interesting view... reading the papyrus quoted in the video as literally as possible... but the fact that the prefect here had to tell people who had left their nomes to return to them is a little telling that this sort of thing was at least possible in Roman census taking.

@@thomasecker9405 It's not really an interesting view, it's mostly the common view of all non-apologetics. "If A, then A" so to speak. Apologetics does *require* misinterpretation of sources to say something they don't. That is the very essence of apologetics. Of course *someone* is going to leave their home on occasion, but what is described here is nowhere close to what is being described in Luke's Gospel.

Yes, it’s not definitive, but highly suspect. These things are completely ignored in the video.

Personal headcanon: they made the journey because Mary got pregnant out of wedlock and it was socially difficult to stay in Nazareth. The journey could have happened anytime during the pregnancy and the whole born-in-a-barn thing was just a story Jesus repeated later on to make his childhood sound interesting.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise about Luke "inventing stuff" to simply fill prophecy. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZCBmZrDADew.html

This is such an incredibly weak argument. You make that point, you could also say "why would Luke lie that Jesus really walked on water?" Luke was written a LONG time after the supposed "census" and so the most obvious theory, if you want to apply Occam's razor, is that he fucked up the recollection, as many authors have done and continue to do throughout time.

Indeed it is very odd

It's a book that claims that: A snake can talk A man can be swallowed by a whale and live That a man died and then came to back to life after magic man resurrected him Then the magic man died and then also came back to life And after the magic man's died, a bunch of people rose from the dead and walked around a city. And that's just to name a few!

@@2PRO_4U_2NO The typical atheist strawmanning with no understanding at all of theology or metaphysical truth

Shalom friend!

Are you kidding? How about because we don’t know who wrote Luke, or where/where it was written? It may well have originally been an oral tradition. Plus it’s a gospel, not a historical document. To trust this one anonymous text that an absurd world-wide census was conducted where everyone returned to their ancestral home of an ancient ancestor for no good reason is totally ludicrous. Plus literally no one else corroborates this unprecedented census, not even Matthew.

How do youknow Gerodotus wrote the history of herodotus

'Lines up'... how convenient.

I believe they had auxiliaries at times, but I'm not sure they ever trusted the Jews enough to enlist. That's a question you might want to ask someone like Historia Civilis.

It's based on the calculations of the German theologian Emil Schurer.

His death is now dated to 6BCE.

Hello Kuudere Kun

@@WhosthatHotspice Hello

@@tomasrocha6139 No it does not say that, "Inn" is a mistranslation.

@@tomasrocha6139 The correct translation is "Upper Room" or "Guest Room".

@@tomasrocha6139 The one occurrence of the word "inn" in the KJV of Luke 2:7 is mistranslated. The Greek word is Katalumati. The other two times it is used it is translated in the KJV "guestchamber". It means a guest room of sorts usually located on the upper floor of a house. It is used of the Upper Room of the Last Supper in Mark 14:14 and Luke 22:11, one of those is the same author as this verse. In Luke 10:34-36 Luke uses a completely different Greek word for a commercial Inn, Pandoceion. And this statement that there was no room in the Katalumati comes after Jesus is born not before, it's about where to place Him after being born.

Maybe the title is to draw in atheists. Then do the old switcheroo.

Most likely.

Nowhere does the text indicate that. It only speaks of Bethlehem as Joseph's ancestral home.

I wondered about that too... Why did they have to stay with the animals then?

@@Jokl92 Obviously because there wasn't any room for them to stay in the upper room of the house.

@@thomasecker8897 No room for your son?

Our Lord (Isaiah 53:2-3, Song of Songs 5:10-16) was crucified Saturday February 14 22 AD. When the almond tree blossoms. Ecclesiastes 12:5-6(Augusts Reform 8BC) Numbers 9:11 sinners Passover. John 10:22 WINTER 404 verses in Revelation, Ascends Saturday April 4 22 AD before Easter Sunday Pentecost.

There was a previous video, referenced when rebutting argument 4, where he explains how Josephus may have been in error about the dating of the Census.

The gospel of the Hebrews dates to the midto late second century, it has absolutely no relation to the gospel of Matthew what are you talking about?

The gospel of Hebrews is much probably other version of Matthew, not the original one. and how do you know for sure if we don't have it? we only have some citations of the early church fathers

Written by an Argentinian engineer with a hobby in Theology. Truly enough to overturn centuries of biblical study.

Joseph could have been born in Bethlehem. How is that hard to understand?

@@sliglusamelius8578 I am sure the author could have mentioned that Joseph was from Bethlehem, instead of inventing this ludicrous explanation. Also, do we ignore the fact that Jesus was NOT the son of Joseph (he was miraculously conceived by god’s intervention) thus not part of Joseph’s lineage? The story has too many holes.

@@georgiosfarchat6211 He was conceived of a virgin, that's the story. His lineage could be matrilineal or patrilineal through adoption. Why wouldn't Luke just say that he was born in Bethlehem instead of creating a narrative that skeptics in his day, or 2000 years later, would claim were false? Fables don't get written this way; Luke meant what he wrote. Every explanation proffered to you make sense, you just Don't Want to Believe. But intellectual honesty demands that you don't get to claim collusion between authors and discrepancy between authors, both. That makes no sense, as does the idea that contemporaries of Luke would not know the history better than you.

@@sliglusamelius8578 The extent that people go trying to reconcile the obvious discrepancies in the gospels always amazes me. So Jesus really inherited/claimed past genealogy by adoption? In history, you can find instances where a king may adopt someone to continue his Lineage. Thus continuing their Patrilinear Lineage by adoption. The other way around, simply does not make sense and you know it. We need to be intellectually honest and more than that, honest to ourselves. If you need “belief” to make something work or make sense, often means that the story or narrative is seriously problematic.

@@georgiosfarchat6211 What? History in those days quite frequently had patrlineage by adoption. All the time. The davidic lineage could even be bilateral, through mary and Joseph. Very easily. I know of zero discrepancies.

to answer the thumbnail no. But mike showed how he answered it

@@webslinger527 as much as I’d like it if if Luke were accurate to history it just isn’t. It’s a biblical tale with a name attached to it (luke) and story about a mystical man that probably lived. A religious text.

@@PhullyNo1 That doesn’t take away from the census actually happening, even if you don’t believe what Luke wrote about Jesus doesn’t mean the census did not happen.

@@webslinger527 best case: a book that was written by an unknown author, wrote that something happened when he most likely wasn’t alive, in an area in which he didn’t live, (because the author was most like Greek living across the med) claims something happened that is irrelevant to biblical teachings. Hence a useless apologetic. It doesn’t value or devalue the works of Jesus. This argument is, if you believe the Bible is historically accurate, you’ll feel much better when mike tells what he thinks happened, if you don’t believe the Bible is history, you still don’t. Best wishes, see you in the next one.

@@PhullyNo1 what complete nonsense are u taking about. 1 Luke is not anonymous as some say if u actually do the research Luke is most likely the author. 2 also so what if it was written in Greek, Paul was jewish and yet he knew four languages. 3 not a useless apologies. 4 it’s not about what Michael says is history says and Luke does not contradict history if you had watch the video or done some research on it you know that to be true. I have heard the arguments against Luke most are horrible arguments only some are actually decent. So see u in the next one.👍

Hi, I'm an engineer and I would like to answer this question for you. The secret is that π=3. Thanks, have a nice day.

So the Holy Ghost knocks up Mary and 9 months later out pops Jesus making him his own father. It is the time of Herod who orders the death of the first born and the family hikes to Egypt. Kind of like Moses ordering the death of the first born and then going to Israel (which was still Egypt). Or was it he was born in the time of the census 10 years after Herod’s death and went back to Nazareth. A city that did not exist in the first century as it was obliterated by the Assyrians in 723 and not rebuilt until the 4th century CE. Come on Luke you were copying Mathew get it right. So 30 years later Jesus appears in Galilee cruising the docks. He comes upon 11 fishermen having their taxes done. Says hey guys if you quit your jobs dump your wives and abandon your children I will tell you stories and perform magic tricks. Wow without a second thought they all go along with him. Singing * *kumbaya* they head off into the Hills of Judah. This always happens in real life. Skipping over the 37 magic tricks which are just embellished rehashing of Old Testament magic tricks. He is riding a donkey or is a donkey and a colt whatever. Goes onto the temple plaza which is about 35 acres and guarded by a battalion of temple soldiers and turns over the money changers tables. No one recognizes him but Judas turns him in for some shekels. The Roman governor Pontius Pilate (who is known for his slaughter of Jews) backed up by a legion of Roman soldier’s buckles to pleading mob and crucifies him. Like he would ever buckle to a mob. While being crucified a thousand zombies rise from their graves and have the first Mardi Gras in Jerusalem. This during a 3 hour eclipse of the sun during the full moon. 3 days later either 1 or 2 or 3 women got to the grave to move a 3 ton stone but find either 1 or 20 Roman soldiers there and the tomb open. Jesus pulled the ancient god trick like Inanna , Adonis, Osiris etc, etc and rose from the dead

@@fordprefect5304 bro your fisrt sentence is incorrect LMAO why ppl take you serious?

@@christhatsall8926 Sorry did I insult your book of fairy tales

@mysotiras5 Sorry did I insult your book of fairy tales