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As a historian, I love how their ideologies reflect the times they lived in. Alexander the Great was king of Macedon, a place where a king was a first among equals, and the only way he could maintain the respect of his subjects was by showing nothing but strength and ambition. The only way he could be king was by being the best fighter, being the best drinker, and being the best conquerer. Arturia was a figure embellished with the ideals of chivalry and the idea that a king must be just and selfless. They couldn't just rule by whim and had to protect the weak and vanquish evil. Gilgamesh lived in a time when being a king and beginning a god weren't entirely different. He wasn't just making the law, he was the law. Anything he says was final because that was the only way they could maintain order..
@@space_criticJust like iskandar said she has no material to be a king one of the purposes her kingdom fall was because she was overprotective with her kingdom and people Camelot was destined to fall and her duty as the king was to guide them she failed in that way it’s like an animal in a zoo they get food everyday so they don’t hunt they get water so they don’t have to look for rivers or canals, if that animal is let out free into the wild it will eventually die because they weren’t thought how to survive
A leader leads. The king is above the people, but only so that he can inspire them to their own greatness. But then, Alexander also had the greatest philosopher in history for a teacher. No wonder he got it right.
Archer cared about his people after being humbled by feeling helpless that he cannot save his dying friend, Enkidu. After that, he contemplated about his own Mortality, then sought for the fruit of immortality. Once found, he rested on an Oasis where he fell asleep and the fruit was eaten by a snake. Seeing how futile and pointless his efforts are, he finally accepted his humanity and went back to Uruk where he rebuilt his Kingdom and ruled as a king that cares for his people as he did to his friend. Archer looks down on modern people because they're practically the lazy people Gilgamesh punished during his time, his people had roles, no matter how small it was, Brick makers will make bricks, children will be children, learning and becoming valuable assets to his kingdom, he owns his people and that in turn is the same as his own wealth. If what he owns is useless, it's best that he cut them off.
@Hans Hanzo You should check out his Caster version in FGO and/or the Absolute Demonic Front anime. I won't spoil but you'll be interested to see how he's changed.
Its not just about that if you see how loyal and courageous the people of Uruk are compared to modern humans who are pretty much ran by greed. The people of Uruk are also happy living simple lives.
@tdwt That’s because Fate/Zero Gil is younger Gil from before Enkidu died. The Gil we see in Fate/Grand Order is older Gil from after Enkidu died and when he returned from his immortality quest empty-handed. By that point, Gil had basically lost everything but his people and as such he came to value his people as his greatest treasures. Normally this would lead Gil in the modern age to want to become the King of the world so he can make his treasures (the people of the world) valuable again but because he was reincarnated through a Holy Grail corrupted by Angra Mainyu (all the evils of the world) back during the 3rd Holy Grail War, it messed up his mind just short of becoming an alter.
I don't think Gilgamesh was necessarily telling saber she is doing the right thing and to keep it up. He said in different eps that he enjoys seeing people crushed trying to accomplish the humanly impossible. Which discribes the heavy crown of martyrdom saber is living. He said he finds it beautiful in that regard while rider pities it.
@@watamesshepherdjesuschrist6792 Im starting to love Iskandar too when he criticised Artoria pendragon for her sheer martyr actions against her people and the impossibility to be a humble leader.
Gilgamesh likes Artoria simply for being an overly idealistic person. A rare treasure for him since he became more wiser after his journey. His feelings for Arturia was merely that of a collector fawning over something rare.
@@rebelblade7159 I believe this version of gilgamesh is before the death of enkidu where he becomes much wiser and even a bit humbler. (When he embraces true immortality as well as his own mortality
@@skyereave9454 don't they all enter the grail collection after they die (expect merlin maybe), hence he would be Gil after enkidu's death, he even mentioned him to iskander.
On top of that, Iskandar orders Waiver to survive before the fight with Gilgamesh. He evidently values his followers. What's interesting is that Gilgamesh respects that and lets Waiver live. Gilgamesh respects Iskandar's way of being King. He understands it and that he is self aware of the way he rules and how outsiders would view him.
I think Gilgamesh actually agrees with most of what Iskandar is saying. However, he thinks that a "mere mortal" doesn't have the right to have those feelings. That's why he calls him " a usurper worthy of my judgement".
Didn't Archer say Saber should continue what she believes so that he can see her misery? That laugh he gives as he leaves and the look Saber gives afterwards the banquet shows that he basically dissed her. He just wants to see her crumble
King Arturia Pendragon, The King of Knights, Saber Arturia, or Saber, embodies the tenets of honor, as defined by honor: reverence towards her lessers as well as her peers, charity to the weak and innocent, an unshakable duty towards the well-being of her subjects and her nation. As the King of Knights, she exists for the people, and for the people alone, and, by her direct decree and indirect paradigm, obliges her knights to do the same. King Iskandar the Great, The King of Conquerers, Rider Iskandar, or Rider, on the other hand, embodies the path of ambition, as defined by himself. A man who, out of all the men gathered his dining halls or his field armies, laughs the loudest and rages the much longer, respectively for what he desires to take. As the King of Conquerors, by his word and example, lives for himself, and by extension, the retainers who follow him. Idealism Unsheathed and Sullied Bred off of romantic tales of sword and plate and the oft said democratic motto of "we the people," never mind what character you might like more personally, Saber's stance on kingship in the show stands as the popular notion of what a king ought to be, and Rider's, a perversion. After all, Saber's stance is a selfless one, and Rider's, a selfish one. Nothing but good can come out of selfless acts, and everything evil comes out of selfish ones. Selflessness trumps selfishness. Period. Except... it's not that simple. Three things to keep in mind. The road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions, Selflessness is selfishness in self-denial, Human beings are generally self-interested. The Fate franchise no doubt got at least some of its inspiration for its plot from the "Quest for the Holy Grail," an old tale based around Arthurian lore. The lessons that can be drawn such an old story can be applied in this context as well. In the version I'm most familiar with, King Arthur (or I guess Arturia, if you want to keep all the Fate lore more consistent) commissions his (or her) Round Table assemblage to search for the Holy Grail, a legendary object of divine, messianic properties said to have been used by... blah blah blah... long story short, the Grail was reportedly found. Reportedly, according to the emaciated knights that were able to make it back to Camelot. The few knights who found it were apparently too good for this world and were whisked off straight to heaven. That's the issue Rider levies against Saber: She's attempts to be too freaking good for this world. He accuses Saber of being a saint, a martyr, and while people may admire saints and martyrs, who, says he, among us would want to live a life like that? He accuses her of confusing saintliness and martyrdom with kingship, and even goes far enough to say she is no true king at all. "For the country's prosperity, a true king should be willing to make any sacrifice. " ~ Saber "You abandoned your men when they lost their way, then alone and untroubled by that fact, you went on to follow your pretty little ideals to the end. Thus, you are no true king." ~ Rider Saber may be better than most in keeping to ideals as honorable as hers. However, but very few, if any, of her knighted vassals have as virtuous or masochistic a temperament as she. Every knight gathered at the Round Table has their own selfish interests separate to her selfless ones, and rather than catering to these different interest, co-opting and compromising them with her own, or understanding or at least acknowledging them, she places herself as above it all and expects her knights to do the same. She orders her followers to suppress their own personal interests, but not all of them want to, like with Mordred, or are strong and humble enough to keep themselves in check, like with Lancelot. There are no spoils to be gleaned from serving in her court. Working under her behest is an oft thankless task that can only be satiated by words of gratitude and the call of duty, but for many, even for Lancelot, it wasn't enough. She's effectively asking them to abandon their humanity and be masochists, and she's too honorably unyielding for them to negotiate for anything less. Her throne is situated high above in an ivory tower. She's imposing her selflessness on them without any concern of how they might personally feel about it. It's selfishness, hypocrisy, and it's because of that that her subjects and her country, the two things she fought so hard to save, tore itself apart. Rider's no hypocrite. He admits and is proud of the fact that his kingly ends are selfish, and he encourages his retainers to exercise their selfishness as much as he, which begs the question why so many people ended up following him. After all, one's own self-interest is usually different from another's. Not so with Rider's retainers. Unlike Saber, who forced her ideals down the throats her knights from her ivory tower, Rider sold his dreams to his retainers in the halls of banquets and the fields of battle, so that their will was his will, and his will was theirs. He embraces his humanity, his retainers humanity, and makes their humanity his own. King Gilgamesh, The King Heroes, Archer So, what does the King of Heroes have to say about this? Outside of his new found sadistic obsession with Saber, nothing really. This whole discussion for him is absurd to begin with. He is the king, and everything and everyone is his to do what he wills. Why? Well, because he's king. You do not defy the king. Which is him. Period. "It is the law. My law, which I set down as the rightful king / Right or wrong are irrelevant. If you break the law, I will punish you. There is no room for discussion." ~ Archer And it is that simple. All this talk of morals and principles... The true king shouldn't have to stoop to the level of mongrels to justify his sovereignty. Got a problem with that? Take it up with his probably unlimited arsenal of things he can chuck at you until your dead or begging to be put to death. Ideals and dreams mean nothing without power, or whose cause has the greatest power, and between the three of them, as evident later in the series, Archer easily stands as the most powerful of them. The True King Or Archer may so think, because while ideals and dreams may be powerless in and of themselves, they have a remarkable tendency to gather a lot of power all in one place. They never truly die so long as humanity has the capability to believe in them, whether that be in Tom of Warwick or Waver Velvet. All three Heroic Spirits have their own differing views with their own compelling points. Even Saber, for while her views may have been the ones that were eviscerated the most, they're still the closest equivalent to what we'd imagine a society should function as, if society should be run based off social justice. (THIS ARE NOT MY WORDS, I TOOK IT FROM REDDIT WHERE WE ARE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION. THIS TEXT WAS WRITTEN BY ZeroReq011)
I like the fact that Caster Gilgamesh is all of the kings ideologies combined into one. And that reason alone makes him the pinnacle of all heroes and kings.
To give some context when it comes to Saber it should be noted that she was born in a time of war and Chaos. With the fall of the Roman empire countless barbarians were across the land and plenty of would be nations were around with many greedy warmongering tyrant kings, Artoria was to be the solution to all of that. To be a completely just and fair king who would not allow any of her worldly desires to get in the way of what would benefit her nation the most. She was raised alongside Sir Kay to become knights under Sir Ector (though many believe that when she slept Merlin would teach her how to be a proper King, how to wage war, and etc.) and eventually pulled the sword from the stone, the rest as they say is history. Fun fact: The author of Fate/Stay night Kinoko Nasu stated that if Gil was completely serious then he could beat all other the servants in a single night. Granted this was for Fate/Stay night but it's commonly believed that the servants in that were of a much higher quality than Fate/Zero.....except for Rider.
Bruh, I don't think EMIYA and Medea are top tier servants (Archer Hercules rocks), while I do agree that Hercules, Cu (despite being probably inferior to Karna) and Artoria are some of the strongest in their own class.
Leonardo Contin lol what? You think chucklefuck Gilles is a better Caster than Medea? Gilles can’t even cast spells. Gilgamesh’s disposition makes him a terrible servant.
Yeah that's why i cant help but feel sad for her nor i couldn't blame her. Though i just wonder why did type moon turned her to a perfect saint when she also had done not chivalrous things for the benefit of the kingdom.
I feel like the discussion goes to show that people follow leaders not ideologies. The truth of the matter is that people are swept by charisma more than righteousness or what's more efficient. Though this is sometimes inconvenient it's the truth. To be an example you have to show that you don't only have the morals they want , but also the characteristics they want.
@@Tiasung That's not what they mean, at least I think. They mean that people tend to follow people instead of ideologies. Rider for example, is charismatic and has a way with words, and so people a generally drawn to him, he just has this allure about him. Saber on the other hand, while not being as alluring actually has the better ideology. She would be a far better ruler in reality than Rider. I could be missing the mark of what they meant completely, but either way, I still agree with what I've said.
@@kainpendlebury7007 That is not what I ment. A king is a leader. Someone people follow. Someone who leads others. Saber's idealogy makes her a great Knight, but a poor King. Someone that you'd want to be there because you'd know she'd protect you. But she wouldnt lead your path. In Zero and Fate/Stay there isn't a single moment where she tries to take charge. She never leads Shirou in Fate/Stay, or inspires him with words. She only follows him. That is why Rider is a much better king then Saber is. Saber believes in strong idealogies, but she doesn't inspire others to follow her. She doesn't try to take charge and lead others. If noone follows her, she can't be a good king. She can be a great and amazing person, and a Knight but not a King. No idea why people misunderstand the dialogue in this scene so much. There's really no discussion of ''who is the better king''. Because Saber is above everything else a Knight, not a King. Whereas Rider is a King before he is a warrior. It is obvious from watching the Anime, or watching/reading Fate/Stay, that Saber is not a leader. While she doesnt have much choice in Zero, in Fate/Stay Shirou doesnt try to control her but she still leaves everything up to him to decide. In contrast, when looking at Rider in Zero, its often hard to tell who the Servant is, and who the Summoner. Because he actually does lead his Summoner like a king would. tl;dr its not about Idealogy. Idealogy doesnt make a King. Idealogy makes a Sage, or Knight, or any other archtype that greatly values high morals. The ability to lead and inspire others to follow is what makes a good King. They could even be an Evil one without morals and if they did that, they would still be a ''good King'' They'd be a terrible person, but a good King. Saber is a much better Person, but Rider is a much better King. Which matters more, is up to you~
@@Tiasung I'd actually argue that it's the other way around. More specifically, I'd argue that Rider makes a great leader, but a bad ruler, whereas the opposite is true for Saber. Anyway the point of my comment was to say that people look for the wrong things. You shouldn't follow people, but instead follow what they stand for. Rider would be able to get more people to follow him, but at the end of the day the people that chose Saber would be living a better life. Being a King is not about how many people you can get to follow you, but what you can do for the people following you.
In terms of power levels Gilgamesh eclipses everyone. The writer himself said that IF he took all battles seriously and didn't try to play around or immediately disregarded everyone as "mongrels", he would defeat all the servants on the first night. That is how ridiculously OP he is. This comes from the fact that he is the first heroic spirit and his abilities are perfect counters for everyone. He has clairvoyance, meaning he has limited prophetic abilities, a kind of enhanced spider sense. Not only can he predict his opponents next move, but he an also recognize his opponents weaknesses. Given that his Gate of Babylon stores the prototypes of ALL noble phantasms in existence, he can simply use the perfect counter for any servant he wants. Secondly, he is capable of using his Gate of Babylon with pin point accuracy everywhere around him. Meaning he can open gates everywhere he has a line of sight, not only behind him. (In UBW we see this in his fight against Heracles - Berserker). The fact he usually opens the gates behind him is a personal preference . He simply doesn't believe he has to fight anyone seriously enough to use his Gate in any other way. The only person he used it like this, he fought seriously I mean, was Berserker - Heracles. Third, he never uses his most powerful weapons seriously. Those being Enkidu, the the chains of Heaven, that can trap even Gods, and Ea, the first noble phantasm that is capable of destroying the planet. It is more powerful that Excalibur and it is never used at full power by Gilgamesh. The closest we have seen of it going full strength was here against Rider's reality marble. I could go on, but it would be better if you saw a video explaining his ridiculous OPness than me simply rambling on. How Strong Is Gilgamesh? video in youtube by AniNews . I love Rider, but he never stood a chance. Same with Saber. The only way she could win is if Gil never took her seriously ( which he never did.) But even without taking her seriously, she is incapable of defeating him. He is simply too strong. Rider against Saber with the intent to win. I would say Rider wins. Rider is capable of manifesting his army anywhere he wishes. So, if his goal was simply victory, he could simply surround her and never give her the chance to use Excalibur. No matter how strong she is, she would succumb under the weight of superior numbers. But even without his Ionian Hetairoi, if he tried to attack with his chariot not on a head on attack that she had the chance to prepare for, I believe he could win.
Anime No Sekai like he is an extremely powerful servant, and the strongest servant in the 4th and 5th wars. But, he’s not invincible. He was beaten by people exploiting his weaknesses, which are placed there specifically so he doesn’t ruin the story.
@@axlxei2336 Sorry but no. I'm not a "fanboy as you said. I simply analyse what is presented to us and what the writer himself told us. Sakiura won because Gilgamesh underestimated her - he never even considered her even as a "mongrel". So he was never even cautious of her. As for Saber in fate route, like the writer himself said, Gilgamesh was just playing with Saber and Shirou during the entire fight. He lost simply because Saber drew a "cheat code"with Avalon with Shirou's help and Gilgamesh's tolerance since he allowed them the time to project it. During that entire fight he matched Saber's Excalibur attack's with just enough power to stop it or push back without ever hitting her. He wanted her to understand how futile her resistance was and surrender in shame. Her win was not because she is powerful enough to win against him, it was the result of his one crippling weakness, his arrogance. "IF" he decided to say "fuck it" he could end this farce in one night, those are the writer's exact words. He could destroy all servants and masters of the 4th and 5th Holy Grail Wars without any problem. "IF" he fought seriously and efficiently from the start, no one would have enough time to prepare a defense strong enough to stand against him. There is no if or but in this, that's how it is according to the writer.
A good king must be just A good king must inspire his people A good king must lay down the law But these do not make a Great King as Tywin Lannister asked his grandson what do all three of these King lack? Wisdom. A Great King is Wise and after Gilgamesh’s quest for in mortality he be comes a wise king. Which in my opinion is why we have no Record of his kingdom falling that it just fades away well are the other two Kingdom self-destruct themselves
Man gilgamesh didn't really exist and uruk was regional power for a short time.Alexander's empire may be short lived but his legacy exist to this day.He changed the fate of the world.He had spread greek culture across across three continents.His succesors ruled for another 200 years
@@amazinggaming9870 I think u miss the point mate he isn't saying that Alexander was bad he was saying that he didn't rule very wisely and that's why there empires rip each other apart in like uruk that simply faded and on personal note Alexander is most definitely deserve of the title king of conquer but also a title of egotistical Maniac for saying at his death when ask who would rule his empire and simple saying "to the strongest"
@@raymundoserna3449 I think you don't know history at all,all you know is myths and legends.Alexander never said that his empire should belong to the strongest.That thing was madeup by people as time passed by.If your saying that he didn't rule wisely then your wrong.He died just after a year he finished his conquest.He didn't even get a chance to rule.He was consolidating his empire like cyrus the great did when his conquest was over.Its not his fault for dying.If he ruled for another 10 years his empire would have atleast existed for 60 to 100 years..Alexander was like some what of a egoistic man like other rulers of the age.Uruk didn't simply fade into dust,it was conquered and destroyed by elamites.
@@amazinggaming9870 first thank you for responding clearly high respect. Second Alexander didn't just stop he was forced to stop by his army am pretty sure if it weren't for that Alexander would of just kept on going concerning, hell when he returned to Persia the dude was all ready making plans to navigate around Africa supposely and the dude was egotistical at least u gotta agree with that statement the name more then 50 city's after himself and one after his horse that a little egotistical.fourth the dude could rule an empire in peace time the only thing that kept his empire together was him, fifth most ancient source said that he said to the strongest but who know maybe that got screwed up in the wording, sixth I wasn't saying that the dude wasn't wise if he hadn't been wise some of his greatest achievement wouldn't have happened what I was saying is the guy above us though so , and uruk was conquered but remember we are talking about a fictional show where king Arthur is a cute anime wifu which I know this out of nowhere but in fate who's best girl rin saber or Sakura
Re: Saber. It's by aiming to act with nobility in spite of the human condition that ultimately allows people to evolve in a constructive rather than destructive way. It seems childish at first, but it's ultimately a way of choosing to nurture the side of humanity that has led to the best aspects of it. If there's something I'd call childish, is the idea that there were winners or losers in their conversation. All of their philosophies are equally valid and have their pros/cons.
Of course, one can lose a conversation with their philosophy being at least partially correct. Saber might've been correct, but she lost the conversation when she couldn't retort well enough to Iskandar.
Actually gilgamesh are the only one that I could call king from all of those three, well if you want to see his as human than it's simply like "he's a jerk" but as a king gilgamesh are the one and might be the only one that knew what the meaning to be a king. He's entire life was the king path itself and amazingly after his journey gilgamesh became a true hero that human really needs direly.
@@deityevoid it is not entirely true he is tyrant before enkidu’s passing. At last episode of Babylonia, there is section where he is in prime and enkidu is still alive. They had a conversation about whether how he actually cared for his people but he didn’t let his people know. It is mainly due to his duty to overseer and an adjudicator of humanity.
If your entire kingdom falls right after your death then that means you did not teach your people how to live without you. As a king you are supposed to do everything within your power to make sure your kingdom thrives when you are gone. Yes all nations will someday fall but for everything to collapse right after you die is not good.
gilgamesh teach his people how to live without god, so if gilgamesh kingdom fall after his death than is reasonable because gilgamesh himself is god, gilgamesh want human become independent and responsibilities for themselves.
@@julianaank4541 Fair enough but Fate/Extra CCC and FGO shows us that out of the three Gilgamesh was the only one that actually ensured the safety of his kingdom after then end of his kingship and he himself was careful to select the next King that ruled Uruk. His kingdom survived a couple of centuries more, unlike Islandar and King Arthur's whose kingdoms fragmented and fell respectively once they died, with Fate adding that the kingdoms that fragmented from Iskandar's quickly dissappeared. Also, Gilgamssh was never a God and he himself never wanted to be worshiped as a God, that would be one of the main reasons why he would punish anyone in his kingdom. As much as egocentric he is, he never considered himself a God and never pretended his people to see him as a God, but as the epitome of Humanity's power and prowess.
Not even with Rider's reality marble is he able to defeat Artoria, Exalibur will obliterate entire armies in an instant. And this is not including Avalon, which makes her absolutely invincible.
Saying she's invincible with Avalon is not accurate. After all we don't know if she's capable of interacting with the human world when in Avalon and when it's not at full power she's highly killable. The Nasuverse has characters capable of killing immortals and there's one character I know of that can even kill concepts.
Also, if Rider's men are dispersed more widely, Excalibur doesn't wipe them out. Excalibur is more like a concentrated beam of energy that will destroy everything it comes into contact with, but it isn't wide enough to destroy stuff like massive armies. Wider weapons, like Siegfried's Balmung, are more suited for that type of warfare -- Balmung releases energy in a half-Circle, making it ideal for cutting down armies as opposed to a straight beam like Excalibur. Oh sure, if Rider's men are clustered, say bye-bye to your Hetairoi, Iskandar, but otherwise, not really. He can defeat Saber with his Hetairoi if he is smart about how his units charge in. Avalon... is a special case. Her using it will make her invincible, yes, but it also requires a shitton of prana to use. She can only hold it for so long before running out. Also, as @Number Hunter62 stated, we don't know if she can interact with the world while she's in Avalon, as Nasu's never really been clear on it. I doubt that Arturia can use Excalibur and then Avalon for a long amount of time. Against Gilgamesh, Avalon was only active for a few moments. She used 2 Excaliburs in that fight, and she was basically running empty following it -- that's why Shirou's final Command Seal was necessary to use Excalibur for the last time to destroy the Grail. Against an army? She would need multiple Excaliburs, and if they actually reach her, she will need to use Avalon for longer than she used it against Gilgamesh.
@@bryanguo7824 where is it state that Avalon required a shit ton of mana to use? And honestly the healing aspect and it's ability to increase Saber's mana (she can shoot Excalibur several time in a short time in Fate route after she owned it again. It can also because of the healing aspect to cause in F/Z she clearly in pain after using Excaliblast) are strong enough.
@@anhdinhlamduc5700 The shitton of mana isn't from the passive healing ability, it's from the effect where it makes her invincible by transporting her to Avalon. It's essentially a bounded field that repels all outside interference. Also remember this: she pulled off exactly 3 Excaliblasts following her recovery of the sheath, 2 in her fight against Gil, and 1 with the Command Spell to destroy the Grail. She pulled off the first one no problem, then used Avalon to activate the Bounded Field to repel Enuma Elish. After that, she charges Gil, and in order to power her second attack, she has to convert her armor into magical energy so she has enough for another Excalibur. The third REQUIRED the Command Seal as she was already running out of mana. In context of Saber vs Iskandar, she simply doesn't have the spacing to pull enough of the Excaliblasts to wipe out the army as well as the mana to fuel the Excaliblasts once the army reaches her.
@@bryanguo7824 i mean where did it said the active abilities (transport her to Avalon) consume a shit ton of mana? And in context vs Zero Rider, she can shoot 2 Excaliblast and it is very fast (like she shoot it in meele range in Fate before Gil can readjust, there is also in Fate Zero where she fired near instantly when fighting Zero Rider). So she can use it when the army reach her.
Id recommend reading the visual novel fate stay night first and foremost. Making analysis videos from fz alone gives a bad impression of why zero is structured as it is. Rider isnt correct neccisarily, but he is hitting on arturias insecurities about herself.
To be honest after learning lots of stuff from fate , both Gilgamesh and iskander never truly knew how the very concept of being a king change after the era of the age of gods , Altoria status as being the king was a job that she was born for , though despite being a women that didn’t change anything for she became the king after the sword of selection and before she became king she saw a vision of what being the king of Camelot would lead to , the happiness of the people but also her downfall and her end as well as the land but she saw in the vision that people were happy and smiling and wanted to secure that future and change its downfall for she was raise as such without ever knowing a different path other than being the king . The people only sang praises towards the king of peace was brought but that was forgotten if the king failed to bring peace to the country. And even the round table became distant towards her for she didn’t truly understand them and even a knight left and declaring that the king didn’t know there people , to be honest Camelot was bound to fall apart for it had to many enemies and it’s lords were divided it was only the king that unified them under a single banner but that king did not understand the peoples thoughts and feeling perhaps due to her not being truly human for she was raised by a half breed succubus male who didn’t see himself as part of humanity , as will as having the blood of a dragon with in her , with such lack of humanity how could the people truly understand what the king wanted and it did not help that the sword Excalibur cause her body to stop aging as a young child cause her knights to fear such inhuman being , the fact that Iskander and Gilgamesh scorn at Altoria for having such wish for the grail and wanting to change the history of Camelot so it doesn’t fall just shows that they didn’t even know what truly went on , there very definition of what bing a king meant nothing if her very purpose was to insure the peace of Camelot and secure a future for its people for they didn’t even have the same obstacles and up brings as Altoria did
Actually, Gilgamesh is stronger than Saber, he have his own version of Excalibur (the sword that were used to forge it), and also Enuma Elish, that is stronger than Excalibur (this wete showed on Stay Night); on Fate Stay Night [SPOILER ALERT] Saber defeats Gilgamesh at the final battle only when Shirou creates Avalon on her to protect her. Rider on the other side were defeated by Saber, and yes, he didn't use his army, but Saber's noble phantasm is anti-army. So, in question of power, Archer>Saber>Rider. But the three are very powerful.
Saber could beat Gilgamesh in a suprise attack Rider could beat Saber if using the right stratergies Archer coulld beat both with brute force alone as long as he stays on guard and does'nt let them get close
@@anhdinhlamduc5700 no, he said that the sword were the prototype of the Sword that Saber were using, and she uses Excalibur in thi scene, Caliburn is only used on the fight against Héracles, a fake version creeated by Shirou.
I think rider is the guy that would put himself first but guides and inspires you so to stand and walk by yourself and in his name Saber is the person that would lift you up and do everything for you but her emotionless response and attitude would deter you from her but you would stand by her for necessity Archer is the kind of guy that would kick you into a snake pit and tell you to pull yourself out and die only to kick you back in or help you on a whim
Archer did care about his people, but he ruled as he saw fit, as was his job by the gods. Eventually defying even the gods, as he knew they had no real care for mankind. Rider ruled for his people, everything he did was to improve the quality of life and influence of his people. He became an ideal to aspire towards for them, so that they may better themselves. Saber... well, Arthurian legend is kind of complex, Fate's take on it seems to be that Saber sacrificed much for Brittania, setting laws, and being fair. But, was neither a true ruler, but wasn't absent. Hers was a rule consumed by strife, and eventually she lost everything close to her, but her nation endured though it also struggled.
Really enjoyed the philosophical theories going on up until around 10:00. The "who could beat who" arguement at the end just feels irrelevant compared to a far more interesting discussion of "what is the possible political aftermaths to these various approaches to leadership?"
Only 1:15 minutes in, but you are Correct this is pre-Epic of Gilgamesh Gilgamesh. He is described as essentially an asshole-ish tyrant that doesn't care for his people. After the Epic he becomes a wise king that cares for his people. For example in the Babylonia anime he says his people are his treasures, and we all saw how he got when Lancelot even dared to grab them.
The banquet scene is perfect to me because it's a complex and appealing representation of different views of morality, all similar yet different on a fundamental level, and how morality can differ depending on individuals and eras. Artoria is basically the ideal hero. She believes her role as the king is to be an ideal, less of a person and more an idea that must be good at all costs to make sure humans will never give up on their benevolence. A king must inspire, he must be not a mere individual but a goal and tale of what mankind should do and be. The king's life in itself doesn't matter, what matters is what he will leave behind, his legacy. By being like this, Saber essentially removes herself from humanity, believing she must be an ideal to follow and not a human, for mankind needs figures like her to inspire them. In a way, she's less a person than a character, a story wrote to teach lessons. Something that, unfortunately, can be misinterpretated, not understood and lead to confusion, just as it is capable of motivating one to be better, for it's impossible to be like that as it is basically an embellishment. Saber embodies the romantic views of heroes, pure individuals who can't exist in the real world because they're standards and not a person and are there to inspire, nothing less, nothing more. They're a cause, embellished by ideals of chivalry and selflessness and that are less people and more goals to achieve, even if that's impossible. Iskandar is a more realistic and pragmatic vision. He believes a king should inspire but instead of elevating himself as an ideal, he keeps his foot in the human world. Yes he must be an example but also remember his humanity, that he's not alone and above all that he's himself a man, with all that entails. As a conqueror in an ancient era, Iskandar saw the ugly side of mankind and experienced it. Unlike Saber or Gil, he didn't live among gods and magic, he lived among men. So he's aware of how complex mankind can be, how their desires can be pure and corrupted and how they can get lost. He's there with his men, he shares their plight and successes. He might not be perfect, he might treat them badly, he might be cruel, violent and egotistical but all of this makes him human, a person who follows an ideal and therefore someone people can relate to. Iskandar embodies the pragmatic views of heroes, individuals that can do as much bad as they can do good, people who marked history by their deeds no matter how brutal and destructive they were and above all. Most importantly, individuals who, no matter how bad or good they are, can exist because they're very much human. Gilgamesh is the most extreme vision. He's the Übermensch, the supreme being. He's absolute. As the king, what is good and bad is good and bad because he says so. Laws are his will, the people an extension of him, the earth his property. Everything only exists in relation to him. If something happens, it's because he decided it. A being far outside the range of humanity but following no particular ideal nor god, for he is so unique ideals are beneath him and gods are inconsequential. Justice is unnecessary to him, because he defines it. Life, death, peace, prosperity, suffering, fortune, mercy, kindness, cruelty, all depend on him and more, all come from him. Because really, there's only one thing, HIM. In that, Gilgamesh is similar to Artoria, he's not a human being, he's an idea. Except he's not one that should be followed but one that exists far above everything else, one that doesn't care if it inspires because everything is about him. In the same way, like Iskandar, this means he knows mankind is not pure, it has darker aspects and it is more complex. But unlike Iskandar, he doesn't lead, because the people themselves only have value because they're HIS and so they don't look up to him, they just are. Gilgamesh embodies the heroes as tyrants, unreachable, above the people, makers and masters of everything, the center of the world which itself circles around them and them only because they're absolute. An idea that is almost alien and even eldritch not only to modern people but even to people of ancient eras, which just proves how far from everything he is.
In my opinion even though they all had their flaws I would prefer Gilgamesh as my king ( after he came back from his search for immortality ) If I have to rank them : Gilgamesh > Arturia > Iskandar Based on what we see of him : He is willing to sacrifice his treasures for his people . He is the one that we see playing with kids . ( and based on their reaction it wasn't the first time ) He literally died of overworking. He does paperwork . Knows his soldiers name and where they are from and give vacation to the one that was getting a son . He was the reason that humanity started to break free from gods. His people trusted him to the point that even though they know their doom was coming they still stayed and fought .
There are two sides of Gil his Caster and Archer version his archer version is before he met Enkidu where he was as arrogant as a tyrant who careless for his subject but after Enkidu arrived and fought Gil he considers Enkidu as an equal which is why the citizens of Uruk was so glad that Enkidu came a doll from clay created by the Gods change a tyrant into a king further more Enkidu died that's where His Caster version comes up seeking the herb of immortality yet came empty handed but the lesson and value he'd learn is which has able to have human emphaty the consistency of change in the babylonia arc his people were well lead despite the coming doom he gave his treasury to the people of Uruk play with children and said they would become great generals he gave something to his citizens which was hope and the time ritsuka and mash will leave he still stand strong and faced forward despite being alone in the end he remained compose till the very end he learned no matter how his treasury fills it will never fill of emotions and memories he had witness so to conclude Gil may be a douche in his archer form but he's a proper example of a king along side Rider in his Caster form
I know this is a little childish to say but does anyone think that archer telling saber she's right and all that simply because he wants saber for is own.
Archer Gil doesn't really care for his people. It's only when he matures, loses Enkidu, and has the Snake eat his flower that he comes to care for them.
Socrates taught Plato who in turn taught Aristotle who in turn taught Alexander III of Macedon. Having this philosophical discussion on who deserves the Holy Grail befits Rider's character.
Fate/Zero, followed by either Fate/ Stay Night, UBW or Heaven's Feel. Those three are different routes the story can go. Other than that, it doesn't matter. Grand Order, Apocrypha, Extra, ... those are pretty much stand-alone, since they're alternate timelines. I don't get what's so complicated about that.
bruh this is a nice video, but maybe next time instead of making assumptions about the lore on a video where your analysis rests very heavily on it, just do some research.
Let us imagine Saber Alter, as portrayed in _Fate/Grand Order,_ in this setting. She would likely agree with Iskandar that a king should be "human," openly displaying both their positives and negatives, and with Gilgamesh that a king should consider themself superior to the people _because_ they are king. Where she differs is that she has kept her ideals nonetheless; she just doesn't care what she has to do to live up to them. If leading her subjects as a ruthless tyrant will save them, then so be it. Let her be hated, for it is irrelevant. Whoever raises a weapon against her will die. There will be peace and prosperity in Britain through the might of the black dragon. And if the realm _still_ falls, it will do so on _her_ terms.
sadly Archer is the strongest servant in all of fate....he is soo powerful every nobel phantasm is literally in his vault he can counter every servant but his major drawback is his attitude he never fights seriously
@@crim3574 Yes and noone in Apocrypha could beat Gilgamesh, even Vlad with boost to fame and on home turf could beat him, so what's your point? Have you seen Gilgamesh in CCC, those levels of power are ridiculous and he isn't a Grand Servant, and does that. Also Gil would probably be a Grand Servant of multiple classes, if he wanted to, but a Grand Servant serves without free will and Gil loves to dick around and do what he wants so he'd never trade that for a questionable powerup.
Archer is the worst king. But, he will be best king. Rider is a very cool king and is best bro. Saber is too good of a king to be a king. She is so good that she is bad. It’s the best version of her as a king though.
Rider was definitely right in his conversation with Saber. Arturia is a bit like Jesus, everyone, no matter what religion they follow, if they even follow one to begin with, can look at the story of Jesus and say "yeah, he was obviously a good, moral person," but nobody wants to follow in his footsteps, dying on a cross for the sins of others. Saber is the same, her ideals perfectly reflect chivalry and are definitely noble, but nobody wanted to follow Saber, because they'd have to knowingly commit themselves to living a life of misery and loneliness.
you'll understand why gilgamesh is better than iskandar and arthur in babylon. i do think arthur and gilgamesh ideology is a bit similar (based on what i watched on babylonia) 2nd, in my opinion there's no such thing as how you should watch fate, there are tons of side stories in the franchise. but there's a connection between fate zero and fate stay night: heaven's feel 1-3 i think. so go watch the anime however you want.
the only order you need is fate/DEENS, Heavens feel, Zero then UBW, and el melloi the second is optional as its Waver's adventures after the 4th Grail war, the reason why you should watch heavens feel before Zero is because Zero answers the cause of heavens feel and UBW last because it spoils Zero everything outside of these are supplementary material but i recommend apocrypha which has to be my second favourite after Zero mostly because the focus on fuyuki is less significant than in past fate series
@@NHDOreBros I'd argue that the bigger details of Zero correlate with a certain 2 characters battle for ideals if you watch it after, for reason i wont get into here for those who haven't finished UBW
The discussion itself was a character assassination of Artoria. They did not do her justice, she would not have just stood there and said nothing it still bothers me. I have rarely seen people acknowledge how Artoria actually ruled. Because she did not rule naively like a child, she was an incredibly effective Ruler. Saber's ideology is the best one. A king should stand FOR their people, the strong need to protect and lead the weak because it goes in a circle, strong becomes weak, weak becomes strong. They all had faults and errors, but in terms of ruling Artoria was the best one in my opinion.
I personally feel as though Rider represents powerful but responsible (and therefore good) masculinity, while Gilgamesh of course is the embodiment of "toxic masculinity" (yeah I think the phrase is way overused and often misapplied, that's why it's in quotation marks 😅). Saber represents powerful femininity, and while she's has the one failing of clinging too hard to her ideals (which eventually leads to her downfall in her original tale) she is a figure that inspires respect even in the people who criticise or pity her role. Now, imagine Rider and Saber as an inseparable pair, Saber seeing Rider as her kingdom and Rider seeing Saber as his right-hand man. They would be unstoppable...
Maybe he just misunderstanding about the ideology and not well knowledge about the 3 king in fate zero. Specialy about Iskandar , he doesnt want to change the past because he know Its his and his army lagecy and achievement. There is an honor in it. My opinion.
@@boombabylololollmao1565 well it could be argued that in a straight sword fight she would be superior, but that ignores the fact you probably wont get a straight sword fight with a guy who just machine-gun fires swords at you. But that is an issue with the whole "Whose stronger" question in the first place because there are plenty of cases where servants have very niche specialties that may make them useless in some match-ups while utterly broken in others.
Great vid man, fate is one of my fav series Here is the explanation of the fateverse: Fate/zero is the first one, being a prequel to all the others, so you did good watching it first All the Fate/stay night are equal on a temporal standpoint, being based on different routes of the visual novel, so you could watch it at any order, but if you want to get the most amount of info, it would be good to watch on release order(Fate/stay night, Fate/stay night:Unlimited blade works, and the currently airing movies, Fate/stay night: heaven’s feel) There are also the tons of spin off of the main Fate, like Fate kalleid prisma illya(which is a mahou shoujo spin off with the characters of stay night, focusing on illya, kiritsugu’s and iris daughter),fate apocrypha(different story with different characters, but still on the aspect of the holy grail war) and the airing fate extra:last encore(a different story with some characters from stay night)
Bro I mean no disrespect but do your work properly King Arthur/Artoria was born into WAR and CHAOS so she had to fight from the ground up so, no Artoria is not naive or sheltered
Personally I feel like Artoria shouldn't have taken Riders words as hard as she did. Answer me this question: If you have been living a certain way your entire life, keeping the morals and values you jave developed to heart when making decision. And then some random guy you just met screams how wrong you are for living this way, would you be bothered by those words? Would they change you? No, they wouldn't. The same thing applies to Saber. How I would have handled this is that after Iskandar speach, Artoria this whole time not showing much care for ehat he is saying, would retort with something to defend her ideology and then agreeing to disagree with Iskandar. Now later, after the 4th holy grail war and Saber has time to reflect on his words, and due to her encounter with Lancelot and seeing the hill of dead bodies and where she killed her own daughter, Mordred: Would realize that Iskandar is right in a few area's. While she could never agree with everything Iskandar does, she can take what she has learned from him to better herself. And the events in Stay Night I think would further her reflection on his words. I think this would be a much more realistic way of approaching this scene. Also, huge fucking missed potential in Fate Apocrypha. The Mordred and Artoria encounters would have tugged a few heart strings.
Fronky lancer revealed his trump card to save the other heroes king wtv the point is lancer is highly underestimated as in fate stay night he only has one of his lances or wtv those sticks are lol this is just my opinion hes the most humble character in the series hes not even so hyped uped from what i remember in the show he was a true warrior in my eyes and in fate stay night my point is just HAKI PLATED LOL anyways love u fronky
I have found that Fate/Zero->Fate Stay/Night-Unlimited Blade Works ->Fate Apocrypha makes for a pretty enjoyable viewing order. Haven't watched Fate/Grand Order yet, but I would put that after Apocrypha. 4 shows, 24ish episodes each. Makes for a good 4-6 weeks of viewing.
In Gilgamesh’s treasurey every fking noble Phantasm is much more stronger than those wielded by heroes cuz mystery makes the weapon powerful he dosent even have to use Ea to defeat saber or any other servants he can just Merodach:The Orignal sin , this sword is the prototype of every sword of selection accross whole globe capable of single shotting berserker and he wont even be killed coz in all the series he was either killed by plot armor or absorbed by grail . He even fought dark sakura while being broken into magical energy man who say saber is the strongest or some other servant . His Ea shows the Truth of creation meaning the void and in full power Ea can kill the ultimate ones or strongest beings like bb or kiara in their strongest, which servant can do this man ?
Rider talked about how a King ought to represent their people's desires, but Saber did that far better than he did. Rider would conquer places, and force people to come along with him in his army - they would leave behiind their homes, their friends and families to... look for a puddle of water? That might not even exist? Saber, at least, would recruit people for the sake of protecting their homes, their friends, their families. Compared to being dragged off by somebody who used an army to take over your home to risk your life for something that might not even exist, vs. being recruited to protect everything you care about... it's pretty clear who really understood the desires of their people. Hell, Excalibur was forged by the fairies using the hopes and dreams of humanity as a basis, so Saber LITERALLY carries the desires of her people on her back.
Saber and Rider were a lot more alike then either realized. They both gave their followers a great cause to follow but then lost sight of how their followers felt about things which ultimately led to their downfall. The main difference is that Saber lost confidence in herself and her dream and that's why Rider lost respect for her.
Dude Rider never forced anyone to join his army. It was his charisma as a king that had people wanting to join him on his conquest even if they would die. Just look at Waver. After the war he spent the rest of his life trying to find a way to both serve and see Rider again, and he was even shown to have joined his army in his NP.
@@CmdrRenegade No only Saber did. What led to Riders downfall or at least for his Kingdom was that he died before choosing a proper heir. Because of this all his higher ups started to fight for who would rule.
That isn't really how conquest works. Historically, Alexander the Great killed his own relatives to get his throne. You're naive if you think there was nobody who ever resisted Iskandar after he conquered their homes and conscripted their people, or that there were never those who would have preferred to die defending those things.
@@ShiningArc I never said anything about nobody not resisting him so don't change the topic. All I was doing was correcting your statement that he forced people to fight in his army which is false. People joined his army willingly because they liked him. This is further proven by the fact that his NP is to literally summon all those who were loyal in his army.
I was in middle school when I first watched fate/zero. At first I couldn't understand why rider and archer mocked saber, I thought she is good role model. As I grew up, I begin to think that saber's ideal is childish. World is not black and white, there are shades of grey in it. That's the fault of saber's ideal. she's too black and white. I further read the cause of the fall of saber's and rider's country in which the root of the problem of both their county's fall is similar - clash of different opinion. In the episode itself we can see the difference on how saber and rider see it. rider although sadden by the split, he respected his successor's decision. this is major reason why he's so charismatic - although he was a bit of tyrant he still respected his followers choices. while saber wanted to undo her mistakes. yes as leader she's the most responsible, but it is also noted that it's the people's mistakes too that made the country fell. speaking of saber's ideal, this is connected to lancelot's story. why round table was split because of lancelot's affair with saber's wife. instead of punishing lancelot, saber just forgive him thus making some of the knights enraged. lancelot was the perfect knight. he is the symbol of arthuria's ideal of perfection. the affair emerged the discussion of "what if the perfect human do something sinful? does he have to be punished? and what happened to the symbol of perfection then?". by forgiving him, saber unconsciously choose "perfection" instead of "rightfulness". And if saber does win the grail and undo her past, is everything going to be much better? as long as she doesn't adjust her ideals to reality of the grey, she will do the similar mistakes again, just different in scenario
10:18 Sorry to say but Gilgamesh is the strongest entity in the whole Fate universe. And if we go for the Fate/zero timeline. The Heroic Spirit: Hercalus, the berserker is the next strongest. The berserker noble phantasm is that he has 12 lives. But those 12 lives aren´t as simple as just regeneration! When Berserker dies, he becomes completle immune from any attacks that cause this previews death. So yeah... Think it like that Sebar has strenght: 20 Agility: 20 Inteligence: 20 and Berserker has strenght: 30 agility 23 Altought Sebar has overall 60 stats and berserker only 53. It doesn´t mean that she is stronger that him.
The premise that Artorias ideological position is somehow childish is frankly hilarious. Just because the show attributes it to her doesn't make it true. It's literally just bad writing on Gens part to imply that and not substantiate it beyond "The crown of a martyr is a thorny one". I mean it's literally just demonstrable that Alexander while being a great leader/commander he wasn't an amazing king his kingdom failed basically the day he died not because of some insanely powerful magus and rebellions but because he couldn't even name an heir (which Artoria had in place that being Gawain) and Gilgamesh archer is literally the shit king version of Gilgamesh before the death of Enkidu regarded by his own subjects to be a terrible king and by his later version (Caster Gil) to essentially be no less than a Ruffian. None of their Ideological positions really are superior but the actions of Artoria are objectively superior and the argumentation that Alexander uses is that none would uphold martyrdom in kingship but first that's not true all of the Round would have taken the position for Artoria. Tl:Dr Zero is overrated 2deep4u.
in my opinion as far as who would best beat who hypothetically i think it’s lancer beats caster with his great abilities at anti magic but with the exception of the caster phantasm , berserker beats lancer , caster beats beserker , rider beats saber , gilgamesh beats rider , and saber beats gilgamesh , not sure about asssain though lol, again this is just my opinion just based upon hypothetical fights
Actually according to The writer of fate if Gilgamesh wasn’t an arrogant fool and played seriously he would beat every servant in the 4th and 5th holy grail wars in one night
Actually all studies I have looked at says that either age does not matter for what faction you play, or that more children play on the horde. You should state your references if you are trying to make points. Makes the rest of the video kind of just rambling with not much substance. I do not think saber has a childish viewpoint. She has an emotionally mature viewpoint, as it is shown in child emotional development that selfishness is actually more of a childlike trait.
There is no victory without sacrafice And Arturia herself didnt do that as a king She just made sacrafice for her self to proctected her people her purpose actually good but It was wrong deciason for a king In The other side iskandar himself also right but not completly right in my oppinion
to be real, artoria is bad leader but she is a good inspiring device, iskandar is not fully a leader he is more of a general considering his entire reign is just conquest after conquest making him more of a general rather than a king (but he is still smart enough to do smart things like keeping the persian satrapy system), gil... gil is different, gil is blessed with one thing that iskandar and artoria doesn't have, time, specifically time to better himself and of course enkidu.
Artoria was a good leader and a good king, she managed to bring peace to her kingdom for 10 more years than it was supposed to last and she was fighting against reality itself. The only reason why it fell is because the people were selfish and wanted a reason to destroy their home, the already knew they were dooming themself. Iskandar was selfish and was a tyrant, even if he was smart. The literal moment he died his reign dissapeared in a second. And Gil was like you said
Rider didn't win the conversation because the writers didn't give Saber more to say. Saber, IE King Arthur represents the servant king. The king that realizes that he isn't there to rule over and dominate his people but to serve them, protect them, and provide for them. This version of a king is more akin to a good parent taking care of their children Riders version of a king is an arrogant prick who rules because he dominates everyone below him, IE a bully. He believes people should follow him and seek to emulate his type of dominance and arrogance. This is not a king that should be emulated.
Iskandar won the conversation since he proved his original point. The whole discussion started when Iskandar realized that Saber's wish was to change Britain's past, and tells her that such a thing shouldn't be done and that if she changes her past she would be worse than the most evil tyrant. Every heroic spirit should be able to accept their past and move on, something that Saber hasn't done. Saber tried to counterattack saying that Iskandar has no right to criticize her wish cus his own kingdom ended in ruin and that he never was a "good" King cus he was selfish. Iskandar accepts it and tells her he doesn't have a problem with it, cus he still was able to guide his own people by being selfish, he was able to bond with them and relate to them and even inspire them to emulate everything about him. He showed his people both his worst traits and his good traits, and his people still followed him. Saber still fights back saying that a King shouldn't be selfish but some sort of slave for the people. Iskandar then shows her his own NP, that is the crystalization of the bonds with his own army and the dreams they chased. Every single spirit in his NP is there cus they chose to follow him. Iskandar shows Saber that even in his own selfish and evil deeds, he still had the trust and support of his people, something that Saber lacked despite being a "good" king. Iskandar proved Saber that an heroic spirit should be able to be proud of their past, his kingdom disappeared and ended in chaos with no trace, yet he still is proud of it and even achieved things that Saber didn't by being a "bad" king.
@@JoshuaDMarti That's bullshit though. The entire basis of the Grail War is that of Heroic Spirits responding to the summons of Masters. They know of the Grail, and they seek the Grail as well because of a Wish they have. A dead superhuman accepting being a familiar for a wish-granting machine is supposed to be someone getting over their life and moving on? You already died, you had your share of life, and everyone you've known and loved is long dead. Iskander hasn't moved past his dream or his ambitions to conquer, but Saber not getting past her wish to save Camelot is an issue? Somehow the man wanting to get a second life to essentially start World War 3 is a lesser tyrant? What horseshit is that? Not to mention how right afterward he's completely wrong. Even to the end-all of the Round Table adored, idolized, and followed Arthoria. But since this is Urobuchi, his provocations have to get her heated, angry, and looking ready to choke on her own spit. His followers fucking each other to get pieces of his Kingdom is something he is willing to respect despite going completely against what he wanted, but Saber going on the self-sacrificing path "is not the way of a King so let me shit on it". Is entirely hypocritical. But of course, not only does Saber almost seethes and gets angry, Iskander has the perfect NP to show her how completely wrong she is. What's the author gonna do without his perfect martyr that was never actually a martyr to break into pieces?
@@MajorLawliet Not really, if we are acrually gonna pretend that "every servant has a wish and hasn't moved on their life" then Fate itself has debunked that even since FSN. There is plenty of servants that are fine with their life or straight up don't really care much about the grail. You already fail that one. Even in Fate's first work, Stay Night, we have the prime example of Cu Chulainn, a Servabt that doesn't regret his life, doesn't want to change his past, and only lives for his own warrior code. Now you gonna tell me what is Cu Chulainn's wish outside of simply enjoying a good match with another heores. Iskandar wanting to re start his conquering frenzy doesn't have anything to do here. He straight up understands what he did in life, he understands that he failed in securing a longer kingdom, but he is fine with it. His only real regret is that, and that's something he just accepts. He has a wish, but said wish doesn't involve changing his past, or changing what already happened. That's the breaking point of why Saber's wish is fundamentally wrong and why the series hammers so many times that she is wrong and she should change her wish. Her whole character development is understanding why changing her past is wrong, why changing what already happened is wrong. Iskandar accepts his past, he simply wishes to start over again. From scratch, in the present. Saber doesn't accept her past and she is capable of restarting everything all over or even erasing herself just to change that past, a past she refuses to accept. It doesn't matter who is the most "morally good" here (morality is like, the last thing that matters in Fate), there is a whole spectrum of difference of why Iskandar is right about accepting his past and simply wishing for something else that doesn't involve his past (whether that's good or bad, that's a whole other discussion) compared to Saber whose her wish involves sabotaging many people's life, pain, and beliefs just to keep trying to pursue her idea of what the King should have done, unable to just accept that she failed and keep going. As for the other part, that doesn't change Iskandar's point, since he's right. The Round Table's idolization of Saber never added anything good. That never prevented the obvious outcome of Saber losing the grip of her own country. And most of their idolization wasn't even positive, "Most of them only obeyed as long as King Arthur was the perfect King" Is what Nasu himself wrote back in Fate route. Their loyalty was just circumstantial, and they still ended up dying. Mordred's respect for King Arthur didn't solve anything. Bedivere's faith is the king didn't solve anything. Gawain's simping for the King backfired. Lancelot went from being the King's best friend to be the one that didn't agree with him the most. Funny that their development in FGO is literally LETTING GO OF THEIR PAST and their guilt about "failing" King Arthur's unreachable standards and start having faith on themselves again. And that's only the Round Table. What about the people? What about the Britain folk? The same folk that started to get tired of King Arthur to the point that they even believed Tristan's lies? Most of the people that was against Artoria's rule was just silent at first, since she was still "bringing results", but once Tristan tells a lie it was enough for them to realize that they were right and Artoria wasn't a good leader anymore. And what did Artoria do? How she reacted against this defame? NOTHING. Cus she believed that the more she was hated the more she was a good King. Cus she believed that only by being neglected and suffering alone the Kingdom would get salvation. That's why she never did anything, that's why she isolated herself from the rest of the Knights and that's why ultimately, as Lancelot and Merlin said in Garden of Avalon (written by Nasu) Everyone failed to understand Artoria, and "since she was only an ideal, she couldn't understand the weakness of the heart" as how Merlín himself narrates later in Garden of Avalon as well. Saber self-sacrifing path is no right. Is something she has to stop, something she has to give up, and something that doesn't deserve admiration. Just like how SHIROU himself calls her out for her attitude, just like how Shirou himself calls her stupid in his first flashback via dream in Fate route. Nase wrote all of that. It is something worthy of respect cus it represents her high desire to amend her mistakes, but is not something to be encouraged and definitely not the right thing. Even less in Fate, a series that highly glorify people that wish to change the future and move forward, whether it can bring something good or bad.
@@JoshuaDMarti I fail to see how I fail that one. Even if they to say they don't want the Grail itself, the Servants come because they have something they wanna do. Even in the case of Cu, you'd be lying to yourself if you thought he didn't have any reason for coming. Servants have every right to deny a summons no matter what catalyst you use. And what, exactly, is the issue with wanting to change the past? It is completely hypocrisy to say he's perfectly fine with his soldiers wrecking his territories trying to divide them, yet Arthoria clinging to the past is a no no. It has nothing to do with logic, as seen when he says it is too sad after watching her kill the Caster's Monster. He literally just doesn't like it. Saying he won for stating what he dislikes seems almost condescending. But then again, tell me exactly how he's completely accepting of everything going the way it did, but yet wanting to do MORE when he's already dead? Gilgamesh himself always expresses the idea ghosts of the past should stay in the past and not want to affect the present. Gilgamesh starts doing so when he incarnates, but it is not even his choice when it happens. Iskander explicitly seeks it. Wouldn't that just mean he's clinging to the past if he wants new life to do the same he's already done? And now you are indulging in the very same hypocrisy. Are you really telling me you give a shit about the "lives, believes" and what not while saying the dude that wants to start a world war is more in the right ideologically? So then we can completely disregard all those things, but only in the present! The past? Oh no no, that's ideologically bankrupt. Even here, you simplify things to it's very bare bones. If you really wanna bring Garden of Avalon in, how is it that you completely disregard the difference in circumstances? Saber wasn't only accepted as the "perfect king" because of her attitude, but literally because she looked like a kid and those that found out she was a female decided to only care as long as she did good. She wasn't a conquering King set on walking the land for her own desires, she was a King in the middle of a tumultuous island filled with Barbarians, Monsters and Beasts from the Age of Gods that made everyone's life a mess, an unchangeable arid land that continuously gave shitty lacking crops because the very World was rejecting this fantastical land dripping with vestiges of the past. Ah but of course, we don't mention that. We don't mention all the people that allied with Mordred, nobles and merchants, because they were tired of the "tyrannical" King that had to pillage her own villages for an army that had to combat and repel all the bullshit around. Surely, Iskander's charisma would have cured Agravain of his hatred of women so that he may not throw Guin and Lancelot into the frying pan of his own volition. Of course it would have made Gawain just accept the pardoning of Lancelot and not make him block him off after the dude killed his brothers. And of course, that amazing and greedy Charisma would have made Mordred understand he didn't care if she was Morgan's sire. Not losing her Round Table Knight spot like she thought she would? Being made Regent because she was trusted? Bollocks, all she needed was someone like Iskander to have said so. Leaving aside how bullshit this issue of the "past" sounds, if you wanna talk about how their armies behaved, you are talking of 2 figures in 2 completely different situations and going off there. Really...? But of course, is not like Hephaestion showed friction between Iskander's own troops could exist. And outright denying IH once she gets info on what his generals did with his lands when he died. Not that a group that can only stand together so long as 1 person is alive, otherwise it crumbles, is much better.
@Major Lawliet Your first comment explicitly talked about Artoria's wish bring rendered the same as almost every other servant. Yes, servants have wishes, and others simply doesn't. Whether a Servant answers a summoning or not isn't even the issue here. Cu Chulainn's reason to wanting to fight is, in no way, comparable of what the likes of Saber and/or Iskandar wanted. You first started saying that Iskandar cannot criticize Saber cus the act itself of having a wish is something that supposedly every "servant" has. You yourself said it, Gilgamesh by himself doesn't even has a wish for his own. Yet he fights ONLY as a oversee of humanity. What he did in Zero and what he explain he was about to do in Strange Fake is in no way comparable of the reason why Saber wanted to fight. And also, the explanation itself for Gilgamesh is inherently tied to his own philosophy. Even while he doesn't even consider himself a God, he still considers himself to be the peak of humanity. Of course he doesn't see any point in the grail wars. But all changes after incarnating. In that way is no different to what Iskandar wanted. Tell me how he would get a "second chance" for his conquering if he doesn't just incarnate as well? The comparison here is stupid, cus obviously Iskandar also wished for incarnation and once alive he wouldn't be a "ghost of the past anymore". The issue of Iskandar linking or not Saber's way of rule is out of the discussion. If you really wanna point it out he never liked Gilgamesh as well, they barely agree in the superficial parts of their rules, but Iskandar doesn't accept Gilgamesh's way either. Iskandar is literally fine with any other kind of rule. All of this started with Saber disagreeing with him and calling out for being a "bad king" and that's it. And yes, he is perfectly fine with how his rule ended because he never cared about how big it was. One of the key lines of Iskandar's discourse is that he believes that a good King is the one that his people wants to emulates, both the good parts and the bad parts. His own people diving his territories after his death is just a result of this. If destruction is what awaits his way of ruling, he is fine with it, of course he would be fine with it. He still respects what his own people decided to do with the lessons he taught. That's one of the main things he criticize about Saber wanting to redo the past. If you really thing this is a "Urobutcher" thing, then I will need to remind you the basement scene in Fate route. Where Shirou himself thinks that changing the past and saving all the people that died in the Fuyuki incident is pure hypocrisy and straight up the worst thing he could do. That would be erasing that suffering, erasing their pain, their sacrifice, erasing all the years of suffering that the orphans that Kirei used had the bear. Changing the past is not resolving, is not healing, is just straight up ERASING, and all of that is just straight up disrespectful. To just then pretend that nothing like that happened. That's the very same thing Iskandar criticizes Saber for. That's what is even worse than being a tyrant. And that's why if that's her wish then she just doesn't have any right to tell him he was a "bad king". And idk why you started the comparison, when I didn't even did it. But fine. Iskandar never said that everyone in his rule agreed. He never said that everyone believed in him. After all That's part of being a King. Both being loved and hated. That's the only real way to rule and to pretend everyone will just agree with you is pointless. Tell me if Iskandar himself was "disappointed" on Faker in El-Melloi? And ignoring how the LN straight up states that Faker is the only one out of all his troops that actively denies IH's summoning. But anyway, Faker being disappointed for the way that his generals behaved after his death is just a whole other discussion. It's in character with Faker's own personality and beliefs, as someone that Iskandar always wanted to be "her own" while she only wanted to be his shadow. Of course she wouldn't like it. And Iskandar accepts it, he never expected everyone in his rule to agree with him, after all. And that's funny, how the Phantasmal beasts were driven put of the island by the Round Table, how Saber managed to return Britain to the "old days" of prosperity, and how the barbarians and the picts were also defeated. As how Garden of Avalon tells us. Wow, King Arthur successfully rejected every paranormal attack from the World. Then how did it fall? 🤔 Anyways. And once again, the rebels, nobles and merchants that sided with Mordred could have been something not as successful, if just someone cared a little how she was perceived by the people. But "as long as she was hated" she believed she did the right thing. And, yeah, you were the first one to say that Iskandar was wrong because the Round Table still was loyal to the King and idolized him, and I just showed you it definitely wasn't the case. And after all you haven't back up that either. But anyway, the point is that Saber's wish is wrong, wether it is changing the past or changing who King Arthur was, is just wrong to think you can just erase the past and overwrite it like nothing, after all, she only cared about her duty, not about the feelings and the suffering that her people went. She pretended to erase all of that, not ammend it. Erase it all and somehow start again as if nothing happened hoping it would turn out for the better. That's a bad wish itself. At the very least the Conqueror you criticize so much would never mess with what already happened and the feelings of those who died for their dream. A similar take on what Shirou decided to do and what Nasu wanted. Mate, Fate literally defends Nero Claudious as someone that was a genuinely good and effective leader but that her people misinterpreted as a tyrant. If you think that Iskandar is wrong for wanting to start a "world war 3" as how you call it then you are really focusing on the wrong things in the whole discussion. Fate has NEVER called out someone for being a "bad person". Fking Christopher Columbus has a character development in Agartha making him someone that wasn't actively bad for conquering and slaving a new continent, despite literally being one of the most villainous representations of CC in moder media.
