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The Darkest D&D Scandal Gets Worse 

Dungeons & Discourse
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31 янв 2024

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Комментарии : 863   
@dungeonsanddiscourse
@dungeonsanddiscourse 3 месяца назад
So there has since been an update to this! I encourage everyone to check out the statements from both Anne at DIY & Dragons and Justin on the Alexandrian! There's been some clarifications, dialogue and softening of language in the updates, but it doesn't look like anything materially has changed, and my conclusions are still the same: reverting the term used to "Jacquaysing" makes the most sense, given the circumstances imo Here's the updates: DIY & Dragons: diyanddragons.blogspot.com/2024/01/an-update-on-jaquaysing.html The Alexandiran: thealexandrian.net/wordpress/50588/site-news/a-second-historical-note-on-xandering-the-dungeon
@hmmm348
@hmmm348 3 месяца назад
It's crazy that he's trying to overwrite the term given Caverns of Thracia is such a clear original example.
@ninthoctopus204
@ninthoctopus204 3 месяца назад
Out of respect for you to, I read them.
@madhippy3
@madhippy3 3 месяца назад
The only thing I took away from these posts is that there might have been a legal question (I would like that explained more because I don't believe him) and they thought the best idea was to just credit himself for her contributions (how convenient). Neither post seemed to nail down the issue you brought up with changing the name so completely. Adding the S to Jaquaysing isn't a big deal, its just making it more accurate, but this seemed to be the big point both posts want to talk about.
@theGhoulman
@theGhoulman 3 месяца назад
btw, the 'neologism' thing is complete bunk. What, I can't call something Dickensian? Holmesian? Will the family sue of I call it a Spoonerism? Will the studio send lawyers if I call it Chaplinesque? Mon dieu
@mistery8363
@mistery8363 Месяц назад
"Jaquaysing" At least spell it right
@nicoleofnowhere8842
@nicoleofnowhere8842 4 месяца назад
I mean....name the chapter "Dynamic Dungeons" and reference Jaquays' contribution. No need to name it after yourself.
@dungeonsanddiscourse
@dungeonsanddiscourse 4 месяца назад
Dynamic Dungeons is an incredible name
@M_M_ODonnell
@M_M_ODonnell 4 месяца назад
This would have been exactly the right approach. Either "dynamic dungeons" or something similar, which gives it a descriptive name, and give credit to the person who developed the style.
@seanferguson-th6ny
@seanferguson-th6ny 4 месяца назад
This is why I feel Justin's excuses ring hollow for me. He's a great writer with lot's of great ideas, and his counterpoints and explanations look like Deflect Missile. Using his own name (and refusing Jaquays expressed desire to have the term properly spelled in a manner that more accurately reflects her name by adding an "s" ) smells bad to me.
@occasional-dabbler
@occasional-dabbler 4 месяца назад
It's like a nickname. Never try to give yourself a nickname (especially a 'cool' one). And if you've actually created something, let someone *else* name it after you.
@aaronbono4688
@aaronbono4688 4 месяца назад
​@@occasional-dabbleryes
@DarcyPerry
@DarcyPerry 4 месяца назад
Jennell's funeral was only around 12 hours ago, so this may be a bit raw for me. I wasn't aware of the name change from "Jaquaying" to "Xandering" until today. I did know Jennell had asked repeatedly for an "s" to be added to the new verb, to match her name, Jennell Jaquays. That's something we had talked about. That's something Jennell expressed publicly too. Also, her surname is pronounced Jake-ways, if anyone is interested. I have noted some people writing that Dave Arneson had non-linear dungeons in his Blackmoor campaign, and I don't doubt that. Justin Alexander wasn't studying Dave Arneson's dungeon design though. Justin was studying Jennell's work, and there's no doubt he admired it. I give Justin credit for eventually changing his blog post upon her request to use the name Jennell. Something that Judge's Guild were unable to do, using her dead name to post their connection to her work when Jennell passed away. This was intentional bigotry on their part. They also deleted messages on their Facebook page and blocked anyone who tried to correct their egregious error. How righteous is that? (Sarcasm inferred here). Jennell Jaquays will always be with those who loved her, and her work will be loved by those who encounter it. Justin did a good thing by coining the term "Jaquaying(sic) the Dungeon." He was showing respect for one of the pioneers of a hobby we all love. A fitting tribute. As Jennell won't die in our hearts, "Jaquaysing the Dungeon" will live on also. Rewriting his blog post and changing messages to match the new chapter title in his book has obviously upset a lot of people. It struck a nerve with me also. Give Justin some credit though, for addressing the concerns from the community and responding as best he could. Justin has also put a link up for donating to her family’s memorial fund, is contributing to the Jaquays Memorial Game Jam, and is making a recurring donation to Trans Lifeline in her honor. I wish Justin success with his new book. If there's a reprint, maybe Justin will rename the chapter "Jaquaysing the Dungeon" in honor of Jennell? Jennell was also an advocate for mental health. So, think of that before you direct too much vitriol at Justin. We don't need bigotry or hate in this hobby. My heart goes out to Becky, and the Heineman and Jaquays families in their time of grieving.
@otakuofmine
@otakuofmine 3 месяца назад
absolutely devasteting to hear about judge's guild' behaviour (and i feel that especially as trans woman myself) thx for the info what he did like the donation, that is good to know and makes me glad.
@SneakyNinjaDog
@SneakyNinjaDog 3 месяца назад
Well said. People don't need to get into a fit at every percieved sleight commited on the internet.
@walterbarr9709
@walterbarr9709 4 дня назад
Respectfully, moving forward, this person deserves to be remembered and lauded for their work. What I said in jest I repeat in sincerity, “You cannot present another persons worth as your own.” Whitewash it however you like. Hide it in gender misrepresentation or publishers paranoia. Theft of an idea is perhaps the most wicked kind. If Hasbro used gender to get their gambling model into D&D and was vilified and this person has done the same how should we then address him. I will respectfully be leaving his book and suggesting to my friends to do the same. Perhaps as you say when the second edition if the name correction comes out.
@CiCaruana
@CiCaruana 4 месяца назад
It's weird that there are people in this comment section going "Not illegal though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" as if that was ever the point
@winder2793
@winder2793 4 месяца назад
Laws dont care about feelings and customers usually in their majority don't care how the product is made. Palworld stole from pokemon. so what? its fun. I don't care. King of fighters stole from Street Fighter. So what? I still play. Not illegal? not my problem. How many 3rd party products outright steal from published books?
@christopherbruscas9308
@christopherbruscas9308 4 месяца назад
@@winder2793Human beings are incredibly skilled at justifying all manner of anti-social behaviors that benefit them. Hiding behind legality is one of the more common. It reflects a narcissistic lack of empathy and social awareness. It's pretty easy to say "so what" when it doesn't disadvantage you. Children do it all the time. Society generally sets higher standards for adults. Let me offer a scenario. You are at the park and, for some reason, you have a significant amount of cash in your pocket. At some point that money falls from your pocket without you realizing it. I am walking in the park sometime later and I see the money. I pick it up and put it in my pocket. While I am still in the park, you approach me and explain that you lost the money and ask if I saw it. I respond that I found some money but I am keeping it. Guess what? In most jurisdictions, I am within my legal rights to do so. You do not have any substantive ability to prove the money is yours (you did not mark it or anything and there are no witnesses) and since you can't prove anything - it's legal for me to keep it. How do you feel about losing your money? If you are honest, you probably wouldn't be very happy about it. That's the difference between a moral stance and a legal stance. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something.
@c-r
@c-r 4 месяца назад
​@winder2793 but on the other hand, some people have emotional intelligence, empathy, and care for more than their immediate hedonistic satisfaction like a barking, honking seal salivating for fish but to each their own.
@zeevorourke6876
@zeevorourke6876 4 месяца назад
Some things really show that they obviously don't relate well to people in real life 😂
@michaelmann7816
@michaelmann7816 4 месяца назад
On the one hand, legality is relevant as it indicates whether the matter has any reasonable way to go beyond "annoyed muttering." On the other, it should be considered that a surprising number of horrible, scummy actions are not actually illegal. (Probably due to a combination of not wanting the laws to become so restricting that nothing can actually get done and several of those actions practically being hobbies of the people actually making the laws, but this isn't the place for discussing that.)
@gddion
@gddion 4 месяца назад
This is the first I'm hearing that Jaquay had passed from Guillain-Barre, I had it when I was a kid and, ironically, it was during my years long recovery that I discovered fantasy novels, comic books, and role playing games as a coping mechanism and her work was definitely a part of my early gaming experiences.
@jamesbarantor7094
@jamesbarantor7094 4 месяца назад
Jaquays* it's part of the reason she was upset, don't forget the s.
@user-go4vz2ir6r
@user-go4vz2ir6r 3 месяца назад
I remember the first time I saw a dungeon designed by her. It blew me away, I never built dungeons the same way after that.
@iantaran2843
@iantaran2843 4 месяца назад
That Dark Tower Module is AMAZING not talked about enough. She had a beautiful and creative mind, we were lucky to have her.
@nickhancock589
@nickhancock589 4 месяца назад
Neither of them invented the concept. The dungeons and sewers underneath the original City State of the Invincible Overlord, first published in 1976 were filled with ways to skip multiple levels and had multiple entrances. Must Judges Guild products featured non-linear aspects like this well before Jaquays worked for them. In the Holmes Beginner D&D boxed set the rule book included a section about running a game as the dungeon master and how to build dungeons. This included a side view of a dungeon with three different ways to get in by entering different levels and multiple side levels that lead to different paths to a city in the middle of a subterranean lake (well before the Underdark was a thing). Everyone I played with who created their own dungeon crawls, created non-linear dungeons. Linear dungeons are a product of published adventures that have to fit within a small page count, although this was not always the case. Some award winning dungeons published in the Dragon magazine weren't. The Fell Pass, if I remember the name correctly, was short, but no necessarily linear. Neither of them invented the concept, but both of them are among the most recognizable proponents of the non-linear adventure. Jaquaysing? Xandering? I wouldn't use either term.
@RadeFoxxy
@RadeFoxxy 4 месяца назад
Solid points!
@helotaxi
@helotaxi 4 месяца назад
The biggest point of order here isn't even who did it first or even best. Who captured the techniques involved and laid them out for others to implement? That's the only real question as far as any accusations of plagiarism or the like are concerned. A author writing about the sonnets of Shakespeare and then providing guidance on how to write sonnets in the style of Shakespeare isn't plagiarizing Shakespeare. Naming a technique that you codified based on analysis of the work of others is a privilege you get as the person who did the analysis.
@reverance_pavane
@reverance_pavane 4 месяца назад
There is indeed a lot of pre-existing art, especially in fanzines and the like of the time. However it was a considered an excellent tribute to one of the foremost dungeon designers of the time. Assuming, of course, he actually spelled the name correctly (which he didn't). But he definitely didn't invent the technique he now claims as his own, which is certainly a degree of personal hubris that would rile many people (and quite a few Greek gods as well).
@ProfBoggs
@ProfBoggs 4 месяца назад
I don't know if Jaquays ever championed naming the term after themselves, but more importantly, I sure loved The City State of the Imperial Overlord. Those sewers were amazing. Judges' (?) Guild had excellent supplements. Did you ever see the one with the island colony with forests of high-iron content trees? I don't know if it was in the same world as the City State, but it was pretty cool, too.
@TheGamerZapocalypse
@TheGamerZapocalypse 4 месяца назад
Hear, Hear! I find it insulting anyone laying claim to this. I also can't stand the celebritization of the this hobby.
@PixelPenGamer
@PixelPenGamer 4 месяца назад
Ok, so even IF we accept that he changed the name to mitigate the risk, why in the everloving hell did he rename it after HIMSELF?! That's where the douchines slides in.
@notaninquisitor7274
@notaninquisitor7274 4 месяца назад
the risk is that the original term makes it harder to make predatory lawsuits against other creators.
@PixelPenGamer
@PixelPenGamer 4 месяца назад
@@notaninquisitor7274 That, my friend, is a very good point.
@Lycaon1765
@Lycaon1765 4 месяца назад
He literally discussed it with Jaquays and they both decided it was the best move. She literally approved it.
@GavinRalston13
@GavinRalston13 4 месяца назад
When consuming content I rarely concern myself with where an author is at on the Douche Slope. If they're at the bottom of it, it'll be self-evident. No need to guess or mind read.
@TheLyricalCleric
@TheLyricalCleric 3 месяца назад
@@Lycaon1765But that’s not true-as Justin pointed out in his own update and apology, Jennell was correcting him on misspelling HER name, not using HIS name in place of hers. I don’t see what the publisher sees in the potential for issues in naming a dungeon design after another game designer besides Justin Alexander-nobody balks at the term Gygaxian design to refer to old school DnD. But what Justin did is put HIS name in place of hers, as if HE were the innovator in the field. If I was really inspired by Gygaxian game design and wrote an article about it, could I change the name of Gygaxian game design to my own name? No. It would not be honoring the original work of the actual designer.
@tenbatsuz3002
@tenbatsuz3002 4 месяца назад
For me, I feel all three of his reasons were blame shifting. "It wasn't my fault, she asked me to fix it." (No, she asked you to correctly spell her name) "It's not my doing, some people think using her name is bigoted." (Riiiight, he changed it becuase a small group of people got offended) "Oh, my publisher has was afraid of legal stuff, and THEY asked my to change it." (The term was not copyrighted, thus a basely fear) The cherry on top was him altering history. If ANY of the 'reasons' he gave were true, then altering the past would be unnecessary. You only change the past to cover up something you're doing in the present that you are ashamed of doing. Additionally the narcissism of replacing the term with his own name. Way to 'honor' the person you claimed as inspiration, Justin. It's a scummy thing to do (whether Jennell had recently pasted or was still alive), but morality isn't legality. So, the only thing you can do is be displeased with his behavior about what he did. Though it would go a VERY long way in cleansing how peple feel about things if he'd change the original posts back to normal. (With one exception: spelling her name correctly) (Jaquaysing the Dungeon) It would really be a shame to tarnish the large body of his good works with this one poor moment of disrespect.
@christopherbruscas9308
@christopherbruscas9308 4 месяца назад
I agree. None of the three arguments seem very convincing to me and including all three in his "defense article" further undermines his credibility. You are correct that legality and morality are different issues but being displeased isn't the only thing that can be done. For people who are displeased by this erasure of Janelle Jaquays' legacy (intentional or not), you can take the opportunity to draw attention to her work and her influence on good game design. Or, at the very least, you can get her name correct.
@davidioanhedges
@davidioanhedges 4 месяца назад
You don't seem to realise lawsuits have been won in the USA on much more shaky grounds- publishers are scared - this is the only valid reason as stated in the video
@smokedbeefandcheese4144
@smokedbeefandcheese4144 4 месяца назад
@@christopherbruscas9308 law is very arbitrary also synonyms exist and finaly I dont think she was the first to do this I think non linear dungeons are likely older than her work
@baynemacgregor8441
@baynemacgregor8441 4 месяца назад
@davidioanhedges I think getting caught renaming it would make the legal situation worse not better.
@baynemacgregor8441
@baynemacgregor8441 4 месяца назад
I don’t think we need to tarnish his good works… just attribute them to other people than him! After all Reciprocal Ethics applies.
@BobMcDowell
@BobMcDowell 4 месяца назад
He very clearly does take credit in his 'historical' post: "To be really clear here: I wrote the article. I invented the word (both the old one and the new one). I created the categories of techniques and level connectors. It’s my work."
@balaamsass5540
@balaamsass5540 4 месяца назад
I agree with him. He gets to change a term he coined.
@smokedbeefandcheese4144
@smokedbeefandcheese4144 4 месяца назад
nope I just read the article abt the history of the word and he mentions the other person was responsible but tbh blackmore had this kind of stuff so she didnt invent this either it was Dave he made the first Dungeons and non linear ones as well
@peter23525
@peter23525 4 месяца назад
This is clumsy but obviously not a case of plagiarism or erasure.
@brucekenoyer9941
@brucekenoyer9941 4 месяца назад
It's textbook erasure and an act of morale cowardice. It's not slander though. I've never heard of this guy before, and now I know I don't want to know anything about him. Don't support erasure, don't support him or buy his book. Maybe the D&D community could teach him a lesson in erasure and erase him from the hobby.
@NuclearSavety
@NuclearSavety 4 месяца назад
​​@@balaamsass5540he has every legal right to change the name, but we have every legal right to consider that a butthole move, disrespectfull towards the dead, and self-entitled to name the invention of somebody else after yourself instead of giving it at the very least a neutral name ....
@PyramKing
@PyramKing 4 месяца назад
It is worth noting that Justin cknowledges Jennell Jaquays as a dungeon design expert in his book's acknowledgments “Jennell Jaquays is the ultimate guru when it comes to xandering the dungeon.” Over a decade ago, Justin's blog post introduced and even coined the term "Jaquaying a dungeon," spotlighting Jennell’s pivotal role in shaping our design philosophy. Without that blog post, would we ever even know or acknowledge this design philosphy? While the name has been changed, she is still reconginzed, awknowledged, and referenced multiple times in the article. He did not attempt to erase her name or credit. It’s unfortunate that their groundbreaking contributions have been overshadowed by a dispute over names. This was talked about and posted about last year in November. The new blog post about it in January is just fanning the flames again. Rather than dwelling on this controversy, it’s important to recognize and celebrate the lasting influence of both Jennell and Justin in our community. Sad days.
@Arsenico13
@Arsenico13 4 месяца назад
I totally agree with this point of you. After all, it was Justin that coined that term. Sad days indeed. Just celebrate both Jennel and Justin.
@PsychesGamingAddiction
@PsychesGamingAddiction 3 месяца назад
that would require that people actually read something before jumping on the hate bandwagon :P Most internet denizens only like to hate on shit because it strokes their e-peen. This Justin vs Jaquays nonsense is perfect proof of it. A nonissue turned into some big shitstorm by mediocre content creators and blog writers.
@Reinshark
@Reinshark 4 месяца назад
I agree wholeheartedly with what you suggest at 17:20 - if this was actually request from his publisher, he should have used a generic term. Naming it after HIMSELF comes across as very arrogant whatever his intentions were.
@vladd6787
@vladd6787 4 месяца назад
To be honest it you have ever seen him being interviewed or hear him talk coming across as so arrogant is no surprise.
@RollForTuraco
@RollForTuraco 4 месяца назад
​@@vladd6787 Vlad The Impaler calling someone arrogant, Priceless! 😂
@Ederick1936
@Ederick1936 4 месяца назад
it honestly feels like a long standing regret that is at least somewhat reasonable. He wrote the article, he identified the design style being implimented and coined the term off of the name of the creator who's design he was describing. the term is - his - work, even if it is describing the design philopsophy of somebody - elses - work. I can imagine he (somewhat reasonably) regretted doing that, and felt that the term erased the credit due to the article that he wrote by attributing it to the designer he wrote the article about. does he win the award for absolute worst timing ever? absolutely, does he win an award for most certainly not reading the room? you betcha, does he win an award for just.... just not being honest and looking *so much worse* because of it? yeah that trophy cabinet is starting to get pretty full here. if what he said about the publisher is true he simply should have, as suggested, switched it to a neutral term and maybe referenced his article for full context, which would have both given him the credit he wanted while honouring the memory of the person who's work he analyzed to form the central pillar of his article.
@SingularityOrbit
@SingularityOrbit 4 месяца назад
@@Ederick1936 To go to an extreme to make the point: that's like a historian doing research on the pacifist practices used by Mahatma Gandhi, then writing a book which names them as their own technique. "Dr. John Selznick's Path of Pacifism to Enact Cultural Change, by Dr. John Selznick. As used by Mahatma Gandhi!" If someone examines what another person did and then describes it, that is not the same thing as inventing or creating it. Jacquays was not some fascinating animal for Alexander to discover and name, nor were her techniques separate from her works. I think it's almost exactly as bad, exactly as pointed out by you and in the video, is that he's using "my publisher said to change it" as an excuse for his own bad decision. Alexander won those "worst idea" trophies by his own choices here. It would have been so easy not to do it that way!
@Ederick1936
@Ederick1936 4 месяца назад
@@SingularityOrbit you are missing some nuance here. just because Jacquays utilized these methods in her approach does not mean that she had codified this element of design, it simply could have been an intuition at play in her design. there is a difference between the body of work and the analysis of why it works. this is one of those situations where if Alexander did more of what he's being accused of, he would likely be accused *less*. If he simply took what he analysed as common design elements utlized by Jacquays and packaged it as his own system without attributing it to her, I doubt people would have conflated the two. at best the argument would have been "well Jacquays was doing this before Alexander wrote about it as a design philosophy". by naming the term after her he made that atribution concrete and explicit. It's still his work in recognizing and ordering the design elements, and if he had originally coined the term as "non-linear design practice" or somethign like that the term would be attributed to him, even if he heavily referenced Jacquays work. to turn your example around. we don't attribute Godwin's Law to internet arguments that only Godwin made, yet Godwin's law is really simply just an observation from Godwin that he named after himself. all this to say there is value added by the analysis. it is not taking credit for somebodies work when you did the analysis and you identified the successful elements of that work. centuries later people are still making new observations about all manner of things such as Shakespears work for example, doesn't mean the bard had intended those observations to be there.
@CharlesGriswold
@CharlesGriswold 3 месяца назад
When I first heard the term "Xandering a dungeon," my gut reaction was that it felt incredibly egotistical and self-aggrandizing, and I wasn't yet aware of the backstory. Now, it feels so, so much worse. Even if we take his explanations at face value, taking a concept that someone else came up with and that you initially named after them, and renaming it after yourself is wrong. In this case, with the originator of the idea freshly dead, it's completely effed up. The fact that he couldn't see that speaks volumes, and none of it is good.
@sdwebster73
@sdwebster73 4 месяца назад
"Older dungeons like Keep on the Shadowfell . . ." Lol, "older dungeons."
@christopherbruscas9308
@christopherbruscas9308 4 месяца назад
Yeah, that simultaneously made me laugh and depressed the hell out of me.
@davidioanhedges
@davidioanhedges 4 месяца назад
Now 16 years old ... 😯
@opaqued2039
@opaqued2039 4 месяца назад
This is poor research. There are older dungeons (and older articles about dungeon design), in which others implemented multiple entrances/exits and ways to move between levels. Dave Arneson and his group were already doing this as well. Two things can be true at once. This fact doesn't take away from the greatness of Jaquays, Caverns of Thracia and Dark Tower among her many achievements. Long before Keep on the Shadowfell came out, D&D (or rather the producers of D&D products) had moved away from mega dungeons and most of the concepts of dungeon delving into linear, story plots.
@davidioanhedges
@davidioanhedges 4 месяца назад
@@opaqued2039 and this is what Justin says... the term refers to changing a linear dungeon into a multipath dungeon like the ones long done by Arneson and others, but particularly well by Jaquays, not the multi path dungeons themselves - and as far as I can tell this process was first described by Justin?
@opaqued2039
@opaqued2039 4 месяца назад
@@davidioanhedges Yeah. I don't get the term "scandal" used in this video. This looks like modern day virtue and modern day research applied in the same video. The quote you provided is already more accurate than the the hysteria and ranting in the video. At least she (sort of) pulls it together in the last part of the video.
@michaelwebb3827
@michaelwebb3827 4 месяца назад
I accept the fact that he recognized and did a good job of explaining the concept of Jaquaysian dungeon design; recognizing what made her style unique and explaining it is original work. That said, just because he was the one who coined the original term, doesn't make it acceptable to later (possibly in a fit of pique after having her complain about the term being spelled wrong) re-name it after himself, regardless of what his publisher may or may not have wanted.
@fred_derf
@fred_derf 4 месяца назад
All he would have to have done, is start the chapter with a note explaining where the term Jaquaysing the Dungeon came from and identifying Jannell as the inspiration.
@simontmn
@simontmn 4 месяца назад
"Darkest D&D Scandal" - oh sweet summer child.
@Mark-nh2hs
@Mark-nh2hs 4 месяца назад
Cue Slash's Guitar Solo 😂.
@AJarOfYams
@AJarOfYams 4 месяца назад
In short, what *is* the darkest D&D scandal?
@simontmn
@simontmn 4 месяца назад
@@AJarOfYams "The Worst People You've Never Heard Of" has to be up there for current events.
@user-jq1mg2mz7o
@user-jq1mg2mz7o 4 месяца назад
@@simontmn which is largely a nothingburger. the article points out toxicity that is in no way worse than is seen in other niche communities (yes, it is dog eat dog, yes, it is full of cliques, but the article is trying to argue that it is especially bad and serious, which is laughably untrue), and the, ahem, "case study" is a whole lotta guff that does not address key facts that were established in court and accepted by both sides of those defamation suits- hence does not exonerate the subject of that "case study". not to mention, there's a lot of very suspicious wording that makes it likely the entire thing was, if not a sockpuppet, then heavily influenced by the subject of the "case study", though I concede this last point is pure speculation.
@finalmidnight
@finalmidnight 4 месяца назад
Seriously. I thought that this was going to be about WotC firing people and plumping the books for a sale to Ten Cent and the Chinese Communist Party. I guess I don't really understand the importance of fart-sniffing in the hug box that modern TTRPG authors enjoy.
@ArchaeanDragon
@ArchaeanDragon 4 месяца назад
I have mixed feelings on this issue. First off, I was not very familiar with Janelle Jaquays, despite being a TTRPGer from that time. There were a lot of folks doing all kinds of things in the TTRPG space back then, so it's not surprising. You have to remember this was before the internet, and popularity and fame were the publisher's prerogative, not the author's/creator's. Even from my first dungeon that I created, the notion of making it non-linear was kind of a no-brainer to me. Sure, there were plenty of published modules with linear dungeons, but there were also a lot of non-linear ones, so I don't think this is too big of an innovation. It was, at best, an obvious incremental improvement in dungeon design. On the other hand, I don't doubt for a minute her creativity or her contributions to the game spaces she worked in, and she deserves to be remembered for them. I also am not big on idol worship, which is sorta what naming a thing after someone is. Sure, put her down in the history books at least as one of the first people who popularized and implemented NLD design, but don't name it after her. Seems kinda cheeky to me also that this dude (who I also don't know much about) went down the same route by naming it after himself. Just call it what it is, talk about why it is important, and move on. Naming it after yourself (or anybody else, really) comes off as startlingly egoist and, to me, adds no real value to the treatment of the subject. Now, it's all a bunch of drama and an internet shitstorm with idol-worshiping fans on both sides clashing over a non-issue. To them I say: just go back to playing the game.
@Valtier_
@Valtier_ 4 месяца назад
Hear hear!
@SharmClucas
@SharmClucas 4 месяца назад
Nah, I think the publisher is just a fall guy. He could have easily brought it up himself, and the publisher could have been "Oh yeah, that's a good idea, since that author isn't working with us." His claim that the publishers wanted him to do it could be completely true while still being something he caused to happen in the first place. This is just not the kind of solution that would have been thought of unless Justin Alexander really wanted to slap his name on it. It's probably not about erasing Jennell exactly, but I do think he wanted to take her place. Otherwise it would have been called something completely innocuous like diversifying a dungeon. People are flawed. It's okay to love someone's work and also admit that they may not always have the same moral compass as you. Someone can create amazing works on their own and still be jealous of someone else's accomplishments. I think him being the original person to coin the term actually caused some of this. He thinks he created the hype so he could easily feel like he has a type of ownership over the whole thing. And to be completely macabre, maybe he thought she wasn't going to be using it anymore so why shouldn't he?
@alexorhuxley
@alexorhuxley 4 месяца назад
I mean... keep in mind that in addition to manufacturing a book, a publisher's job is literally publicity. Building up Alexander's authority by naming a process after him, especially in a "How To" book, is exactly the kind of thing a publisher would push for. And depending on what kind of contract he signed, the publisher may have been asking as a formality; especially so soon before press (i.e. roughly 60 days before release). To be clear, I think "xandering" is weird, clumsy, and sort of gross. Alexander should have pushed back against it as much as possible. And maybe he did, we don't know, but I think it's naive to underplay how much influence a publisher has over the book, especially given the timeline in question.
@SharmClucas
@SharmClucas 4 месяца назад
@@alexorhuxley I guess it depends on the publisher. The editors I know would never suggest something like that, even the stupid ones.
@Mark-nh2hs
@Mark-nh2hs 4 месяца назад
​@@SharmClucasit's a odd thing to do for a publisher it's like saying I'm going to write about the creation of D&D and being told I cannot use anyone's name - so have to make it up? Which we know never happens as they are credited in nearly all D&D books. Unless he's got evidence which says what he says is true, I'm skeptical. I mean if you use a person's name and they have been involved in a serious scandal and the publisher feels it could cause a backlash then that's understandable.
@SharmClucas
@SharmClucas 4 месяца назад
@@Mark-nh2hs I agree, I do think he is lying about that too. My point was that he could be telling the truth and still be the main person at fault.
@alexorhuxley
@alexorhuxley 4 месяца назад
@SharmClucas A majority of museum exhibits staff I know would rather design very different exhibits and tell much different stories than what we do, but our hands are tied by Development and the VP of Operations' spreadsheet. Exhibit designers, like editors, deal in the details of the projects we are given, and those key decisions -- like building up Alexander's brand -- ultimately fall to other people within the company. Page Street Publishing will push 150+ books this year, that's three every week. They are absolutely large enough to have publicity and marketing teams calling these kinds of shots. They, not editors assigned to the project, are who Alexander means when he says "the publisher".
@MrLysymaster
@MrLysymaster 4 месяца назад
Important bit of context: Jennell Jaquays is in fact mentioned in the "Acknowledgments" section of the book, so it's kinda hard to call it plagiarism, as that implies that no credit was given; and that is putting aside the fact that his blogpost is an essay that is an analysis of, among others, her work, so calling it a rip off is about as valid as saying that a critic is plagiarizing a movie they wrote about. Also, about the claims that Alexandrian took advantage of Jennell's unfortunate passing and illness - the text of the book would have been finalised loooong before any of it has happened, you can't make sweeping changes like that last minute, it's not how the editorial process works. While I do agree that the replacement name of choice is not the most fortunate one, especially in context, this whole thing is ridiculously blown out of proportion.
@alexorhuxley
@alexorhuxley 4 месяца назад
Agreed on all fronts. Jennell was diagnosed with her illness a little over a month before the book released. By that time, factories have finished their print runs and the books are already halfway across the ocean en route to distribution centers. "Xandering" feels self-indulgent and weird under the best of circumstances, but I think it's unfair that people are ascribing malice here.
@jeffreykershner440
@jeffreykershner440 4 месяца назад
This is the essence of Mt molehill. If everyone would ignore the original article, we'd all be better off.
@fred_derf
@fred_derf 4 месяца назад
+MrLysymaster, writes _"[...] so calling it a rip off is about as valid as saying that a critic is plagiarizing a movie they wrote about."_ Movie critics don't rename the movies they review after themselves.
@Karrde25
@Karrde25 4 месяца назад
I read Alexander's book and I was VERY taken aback to see NO REFERNCE to Jaquays at all (EDIT:... In the relevant section of the book. It does appear in the Acknowledgments, as others have pointed out.)
@tuomasronnberg5244
@tuomasronnberg5244 4 месяца назад
Same, it was very weird.
@RexfelisLXIX
@RexfelisLXIX 4 месяца назад
Not weird, intentional.
@EdwinSteiner
@EdwinSteiner 4 месяца назад
He mentions her in "Acknowledgements". That said, naming non-linear dungeons after himself was bizarre and in very poor taste.
@chassmith6778
@chassmith6778 4 месяца назад
He discussed why he made the change on his blog, at her request, while she was still alive, and when he had every expectation that she could refute anything he said in that post. She didn't like that that it was named after her, and particularly, that it got her name wrong. Had the term gotten her name right, it would be called "Jaquaysing" a dungeon, not "Jaquaying" a dungeon. Listen to what the people who say he stole the term call it. Do they get her name right? If he had changed the term after her death, it would be one thing. He didn't. The blog post was posted, and the book went to press, when she was still alive and he had every reason to expect that she she could call bullshit if she wanted to.
@Karrde25
@Karrde25 4 месяца назад
@@chassmith6778 Right, I watched the video above that lays it all out. I don't think we can necessarily draw the conclusion she didn't like having credit, and now that she's gone we won't ever know for sure. I think my point isn't even necessarily that he changed the name - it's that he changed the name without making any reference to Jaquays in the book. Even once. A single line like "In a technique pioneered by designer Janelle Jaquays..." and I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I shouldn't have to go hunting for an explanation why it wasn't there to find out why she wasn't mentioned at all.
@blackbeard00
@blackbeard00 4 месяца назад
Swedish Bellman jokes is a very very deep cut! Also hilarious.
@briansmith1633
@briansmith1633 4 месяца назад
Man coined a term. The man decided to change the term he coined. That's his purview.
@user-ek5wq7df5c
@user-ek5wq7df5c 4 месяца назад
”But just 'cos you got the power That don't mean you got the right” Lemmy, Motörhead.
@fred_derf
@fred_derf 4 месяца назад
He's Chaotic Neutral, so it's just what his character would do...
@crowhaveninc.2103
@crowhaveninc.2103 4 месяца назад
Damn, that's good roleplay!
@enriquekahn9405
@enriquekahn9405 4 месяца назад
Seems vanishingly unlikely to me that a publisher would ask for the made-up word describing an obvious, well established, non-protectable aspect of game design be changed to another made-up word.
@artisanalfirewood8202
@artisanalfirewood8202 4 месяца назад
WERE VALID. he deicded to change the term to be called after him... after the guy who did the researh, who put the information together, to help honour HIS work, was it baised off of hers? yes, but it was his work. In the end, we have to accept one thing. He did not do something wrong, he just did something the D&D community does not like. There is a difference.
@Mark-nh2hs
@Mark-nh2hs 4 месяца назад
Also there are books out there who name drop the real person either alive or dead for their contributions. It's like saying you cannot use the name of the creator of D&D and just make one up - just in case you get sued. It's a load of bollocks 😂
@KeithGigliotti
@KeithGigliotti 4 месяца назад
Agreed.
@lDanielHolm
@lDanielHolm 4 месяца назад
They didn't. He says he went to the publisher and asked for the change.
@JanStals
@JanStals 4 месяца назад
@@artisanalfirewood8202 there is a difference between rules/laws and ethics. He did not act unlawfully, but did he act ethically? That's why there is some outrage.
@rev949
@rev949 4 месяца назад
It was ignorant as hell for him to use his own name as a replacement given that it looks like hubris at best. It's like me walking into a bookstore and writing my name in gold Sharpie over Tolkien's on every copy of The Hobbit and not expecting to at least get kicked out.
@davidioanhedges
@davidioanhedges 4 месяца назад
Since he coined the original term, wrote the article describing it, and described how to do it , and still credits the idea to Jennell Jaquays ... No
@helotaxi
@helotaxi 4 месяца назад
Is he claiming the original works as his own? No. He's only claiming the analysis, description, and how to use the principles used in the original work as his own...which is 100% accurate. Is the author of a textbook analyzing the Hobbit expected to attribute his book to Tolkien? The fact that he paid any homage to Jaquays at all in titling the original article was merely a tip of the hat. If he hadn't done so, no one would have cared then, or now.
@Frostrazor
@Frostrazor 4 месяца назад
no. not even close. But you CAN try again.
@dorianleakey
@dorianleakey 3 месяца назад
@@Frostrazor You fanboys of his are so weird, its amazing how you say "he described this thing other people did, thast the same as inventing it, lol" as if its this logical argument, when if you didnt know about him and heard this story you would be calling for his murder after hearing what he did.
@JaxWylds
@JaxWylds 4 месяца назад
Thank you for bringing my attention to an artist who greatly contributed to my favorite hobby. She deserves to be remembered.
@smokedbeefandcheese4144
@smokedbeefandcheese4144 4 месяца назад
lol Dave Arneson invented non linear dungeons with Blackmore
@Rashagar
@Rashagar 4 месяца назад
I'm afraid that my biggest takeaway from this was "people really love their drama don't they".
@theprinceofawesomeness
@theprinceofawesomeness 2 месяца назад
note about dungon design, a linier dungon is not a problem, the problem is that you need to justify the layout of a dungeon by the necessity that the organisation that built it needed it to fill
@Hacker-at-Large
@Hacker-at-Large 4 месяца назад
I’m sorry, when is it called either of those things? I’ve been playing and DMing and designing my own dungeons for 40 years and have never heard either of those terms. How about non-linear dungeons?
@xczechr
@xczechr 4 месяца назад
Same. Never heard either before this very video.
@SynrenOfficial
@SynrenOfficial 4 месяца назад
I know his website is very popular among D&D communities, but definitely not ALL of them have heard of the website or its creator. I didn't know the term until this video, either, and I've even browsed his site a couple times before. I don't think the creators of D&D itself ever accepted it as a common term, so probably why lots of us never heard of it.
@Retrobovine
@Retrobovine 4 месяца назад
It's actually kind of laughable that anyone can lay claim to the concept as their unique idea. Of course, I was taught that the entire game was played and imagined in the mind. All of our dungeons were probably unmappable and far more an abstract ground work for creating puzzling scenarios.
@user-gk9lg5sp4y
@user-gk9lg5sp4y 4 месяца назад
Me too, heh. I've been RPGing since 1980 and never heard of either.
@somethingcleverhere
@somethingcleverhere 4 месяца назад
I think I remember the node-thing, from one of the Complete books of [whatever] that came out in the 90s, but they seem like principles that could evolve or be discovered pretty organically from different places. I feel separate from my opinion on the behavior detailed I'm kind of put-off from the lack of scope to the whole thing.
@synger91
@synger91 4 месяца назад
Alexander didn't create non-linear dungeons, but I do think he's created one of the best analyses of what a non-linear dungeon is, what it looks like, how to make one, and how to use non-linear aspects to make dungeons better.
@InquisitorThorn
@InquisitorThorn 3 месяца назад
To be fair, neither did Jacquays. The naming attribution is because it was core to their design philosophy, not because they invented it.
@Demonskunk
@Demonskunk 4 месяца назад
I think the response is overblown thanks to Ms. Jaquays' untimely passing. I feel that he has the right to coin it after himself since while Jaquays pioneered the technique, I don't know that she ever wrote any guidelines on it for the public. Presumably Alexander just noticed that her dungeon design was very good abs took it upon himself to pick apart why, and probably pulled in ideas from other places as well. That said, I understand why everyone is upset, and I can certainly empathize. It's complicated and messy for sure.
@kcsb91
@kcsb91 4 месяца назад
I think the issue is naming it after himself, that's a big ego move and does erase her contributions even if that wasn't the intention. If it was a request from his publisher he should have made it a more generic mechanics focused term instead. He can handwave all he wants but that choices shows his true colors.
@MoonLitChild
@MoonLitChild 4 месяца назад
Also the history of men taking credit for women's work in (checks list) *everything ever* makes it pretty hard to defend. Putting the blame on the publishers is weaksauce too-- I doubt her family would have said no to him using her name/term?? She's just passed, it would be a wonderful way to honor her. The way it sounds, he didn't even bother to contact her family, he just took the credit.
@matthiaszako7448
@matthiaszako7448 4 месяца назад
How does it erase her contributions? What were her contributions? She wrote the modules, which he credits her for all the time. She had nothing to do with the article series. I agree naming it after himself is cringe, but naming non-linear dungeon design principles after Jaquays was wrong too. Should've been neutral from the very beginning.
@shishoka
@shishoka 4 месяца назад
I've seen it mentioned in a few comments below that this was commonly done in previous editions. I move that "Jaquaying" a dungeon be renamed to "designing" a dungeon as it appears to be the way you are intended to do it.
@SamBrockmann
@SamBrockmann 3 месяца назад
It's ironic that the actual reason was to avoid legal issues, and now a massive backlash has happened instead. Of course, he could have simply used a generic term and then said, "I didn't come up with this idea. This amazing woman did."
@MemphiStig
@MemphiStig 4 месяца назад
People should read his explanation tho, for real. Based on my reading, I don't see that he had any ill intent in mind. And he did promote the gofundme in that same article. Even in the original article's updated version, he makes it clear that it came from her. And publishers can be very picky about potential legal issues, no doubt. Try to be fair-minded at the least. I'm sure the "slandering" article didn't even try. Don't be so judgy, internet!
@BlueTressym
@BlueTressym 4 месяца назад
Justin Alexander wrote another update just yesterday in which he is addressing the issue again and it's well worth reading.
@gabrieljusti1322
@gabrieljusti1322 4 месяца назад
the last two weeks have been wild for TTRPGS first the article about harassement, than the possibility of tencent acquiering D&D and this now, well...... i hope this is the end
@jengibs
@jengibs 4 месяца назад
I'm curious to know if she's listed anywhere in the book as a "special thanks" or "in memory of" section. If not, no, he just wanted to steal her work and claim it as his own.
@xczechr
@xczechr 4 месяца назад
She was alive when the book was published, so a "in memory of" would have been in very poor taste.
@alexorhuxley
@alexorhuxley 4 месяца назад
She is.
@paavohirn3728
@paavohirn3728 4 месяца назад
Oh yeah, it reads "Jennell Jaquays is the ultimate guru when it comes to xandering the dungeon". If he's not ashamed.. 😒
@Jimalcoatl
@Jimalcoatl 4 месяца назад
She's listed fourth in the acknowledgments section after Arneson, Gygax, and Mentzer.
@robertstull8759
@robertstull8759 4 месяца назад
@@paavohirn3728 That only makes it more insulting
@lolwarwill
@lolwarwill 4 месяца назад
The only scandal in D&D / Wargaming is how little discourse is streaming & the lack of long form content.
@user-go4vz2ir6r
@user-go4vz2ir6r 3 месяца назад
I saw you on a Pathfinder play through, and was completely bedazzled! I am now subscribed. Great work.
@sylvarogre5469
@sylvarogre5469 4 месяца назад
The Stalin reference is apt and funny as hell. Though, I think it was a dumb idea to change the word. Oddly, I'd never heard of Jaquays or her dungeons until she passed. It's odd because I've been playing since the 80's. I've also never needed to de-linear-ize my dungeons. Why? Because I'm a Tolkien fan. There was more than one way into Lonely Mountain and more than one way to cross the Misty Mountains. I create the world and locations, but my players decide how to interact with those.
@simontmn
@simontmn 4 месяца назад
Paul Jaquays was a pretty famous designer as creator of Caverns of Thracia. Jaquays later changed name and self identified gender.
@adampender2482
@adampender2482 4 месяца назад
​@@simontmn so he went over the edge on his playing pretend
@sunsin1592
@sunsin1592 4 месяца назад
Maybe because most of the dungeons were created by Paul Jaquays?
@zombie221
@zombie221 4 месяца назад
I honestly do not see why he couldn't have just asked her to use the term? Like getting permission to use a term after her name mitigates the risk, and that seems like it came up during the writing and publication process which was before she got sick....
@QichinVODs
@QichinVODs 3 месяца назад
A large amount of vitriol against Justin I think comes from the way he responded, both past and present, to various issues regarding Jennell (including leaving her deadname in an article for years after she had come out, never updating the term to include the S but then changing it overnight to his name, his tweets and articles to defend the change to "xandering" etc.) An honest mistake borne from misunderstanding is one thing, being condescending and doubling down is another.
@NemoOhd20
@NemoOhd20 4 месяца назад
JaquaySing the dungeon. It isn't that hard. However, Justin adds a lot more to his design than just Jaquaysing it. And in all fronts he often notes literary, movie etc sources from which he has distilled the ideas. He did more of that on the blog and apparently is getting legal advise to do otherwise now, and not just for Jaquays. It is what it is. Lawyers gonna lawyer. He has provided a decade of great advise to the community. He has earned a book deal and I am glad to have it on my shelf. The big news with respect to Jaquays should be (again) that TSR in fact had a very diverse group for the time and talented people excelled regardless of background or other factors.
@jamesm2577
@jamesm2577 4 месяца назад
That tom hanks movie was a work of *pure* fiction, it was not really about James Dallas Egbert III's disappearance. He had severe issues & really needed professional help (is psychologist) or even protection before his breakdown. The story is tragic & somewhat interesting but pretty much take the tropes of abusive beauty pageant obsessed parents pushing their kids too far in those & apply them to pushing their kid to grind school the point where he was enrolled in college at age 16.
@BaseDnD
@BaseDnD 4 месяца назад
Love that silly movie😂
@moebiuseight7977
@moebiuseight7977 4 месяца назад
@@BaseDnD but...."There's blood on my knife"!
@robertstull8759
@robertstull8759 4 месяца назад
To make it even worse, his own mother HATED the movie and constantly talked about how D&D was one of the only things that kept him going most of the time. It's one of the few things that he would put time into, that he'd be excited about, and that he'd do with other people. To me that makes the movie a massive insult.
@JBurdoo
@JBurdoo 4 месяца назад
He published a 2nd historical note yesterday that clarifies some of what you have here.
@euansmith3699
@euansmith3699 4 месяца назад
I like that discourse uses, "swell". As the legal representative for the estate of Mr Twirly-whirly, I must take exception to the suggestion of linking his name to multi-route dungeons.
@arcols
@arcols 4 месяца назад
Synopsis: Darkest drama is that Justin gives a detailed explanation as to why the name of a term changed and from whom. Its not nefarious and isn’t really drama.
@InquisitorThorn
@InquisitorThorn 3 месяца назад
This. It's a big nothing-burger drama-stir that makes it seem like this channel has nothing of substance to actually talk about. Also, annoying that the presenter kept saying "it should be jacquay-sing!" No, adding an 's' would make it jacquays-ing. Finally, the idea needed a little more explanation as it's not just adding more entrances; it's also the inter-connectivity of the dungeon itself.
@dorianleakey
@dorianleakey 3 месяца назад
its nefarious, legal, yes, acceptable to people who dont know who he is, no. The people defending this are all people who like him. If they found him annoying and liked her, they would be upset.
@arcols
@arcols 3 месяца назад
@@dorianleakey well more than that. The article she is referencing got a lot wrong. If you read the post where all this comes from, the author corrected the bad info. The thing that *is* nefarious, the creator of this video made it after the corrections so most of this is unsubstantiated lies.
@arcols
@arcols 3 месяца назад
The post for reference. And it was updated before this video came out. diyanddragons.blogspot.com/2024/01/xandering-is-slandering.html?m=1
@dorianleakey
@dorianleakey 3 месяца назад
@@arcols No, you are just so obsessed with liking this guy he could kill your mother in front of you and you would say she deserved it.
@Joshuazx
@Joshuazx 4 месяца назад
Very good video. Coincidently got my copy in the mail yesterday! It has a heading with the word "Xandering" in the creating dungeons section of the book, but it does not have any headings that I can see that say "Xandering the Dungeon" and I definitely don't say Jaquaysing in any of the headings.
@iratequaker
@iratequaker 4 месяца назад
He is outright erasing her contributions. Period. Just because he cites her work in the article doesn't absolve him for dishonestly changing the name to include him and exclude her. The idea his publisher asked him to o it for legal reasons is outright absurd. If she is the one that pioneered the method then she gets the credit. Period. By changing the name he states he pioneered it. He did not. He is guilty an the fact that she just recently passed away to help drive home the crime is all the more sweet. She asked him to correct the mistake, he did not. He stole her work and not only is he paying for it, she is indirectly helping. Total scumbag.
@KuanTii
@KuanTii 4 месяца назад
Hmmm 1979 Gary Gygax Wrote a module B2 Keep on the Border Lands That had multiple entrances to it with access to different levels and lots of traps. I'm not so sure she invented it, that style of dungeon creation. However she did make some really good stuff. Though I could and probably am wrong LOL.
@SynrenOfficial
@SynrenOfficial 4 месяца назад
Caverns of Thracia was, I believe, published earlier the same year. Possibly why she got more credit for it? (Or the Justin Alexander guy just hadn't seen Gygax' module to use both as inspiration.)
@spartaninvirginia
@spartaninvirginia 4 месяца назад
It's more than just multiple entrances. It's having "loops" inside of the dungeon which encourages dungeon exploration.
@KuanTii
@KuanTii 4 месяца назад
It has that also multiple paths @@spartaninvirginia
@KuanTii
@KuanTii 4 месяца назад
Also against the giants was published in 1978 and it has all of these various qualities, another Gygax creation.@@spartaninvirginia
@spartaninvirginia
@spartaninvirginia 4 месяца назад
@@KuanTii the dungeons and cave systems of B2 and G1-3 are actually pretty linear, if you look at them. Don't get me wrong, B2 is one of the best beginner modules and G1-3 is a classic, but to say they're the same as a Jaquays style dungeon is wrong.
@PureEvil3D
@PureEvil3D 4 месяца назад
There's a pretty significant Author's Note at the beginning of the Xandering is Slandering article, that apparently wasn't there when this video was coming together. I think anyone who's getting up in arms about it all needs to take a good look at the most current releases of the articles before working themselves up too much.
@finger3181
@finger3181 4 месяца назад
Welcome to the internet
@Rodrigo_Vega
@Rodrigo_Vega 4 месяца назад
What a terrible look. It's just as you say, if he had named the concept "Twirly-whirling the dungeon" instead of crossing over someone's name and writing his own, then no one would have batted an eye. Did he had to add his own name over a thing everyone else knows he himself didn't invent? He should go back on this and say "Yea, that was a bad lapse in judgment. Sorry everyone!" and move on.
@SynrenOfficial
@SynrenOfficial 4 месяца назад
Agreed. Some people would still dislike him, but trying to defend the name choice makes it seem extra suspicious. Although now I'm giggling over the concept of "twirly-whirling the dungeon". XD
@Timberboar
@Timberboar 4 месяца назад
Wait... older dungeons like... keep on the shadowfell? I've never felt so old
@user-nv3ue3rf4g
@user-nv3ue3rf4g 4 месяца назад
I never heard of this woman until last month. And my friends and I were building our own "non-linear" dungeons in the late 70s as middle-schoolers. We didn't call them "non-linear". They were just our dungeons and we never thought anything of it. 🤔 This is absurd. 😳
@TheGamerZapocalypse
@TheGamerZapocalypse 4 месяца назад
Right on...same here with my friends back in the day. But then, we weren't trying to cash in on it either...
@jimmybyard3813
@jimmybyard3813 4 месяца назад
You may have heard of this person before under a different name: Paul Jaquays. Did a lot of art for D&D before transitioning.
@drakegrandx5914
@drakegrandx5914 3 месяца назад
And Lovecraft is hardly the first person to have written about "cosmic horror", but we still call it "Lovecraftian" because Lovecraft refined the genre and brought it to the attention of the public and, most importantly, other professional figures in the field. "Non-linear" dungeons weren't the norm in professional products at the time, and Jaquays's works made it so that would become the case. But that's really irrelevant, because the "is it right to name this practice after this person" ship has jumped a good 10 years ago. The issue at hand isn't whether Jaquays deseves the amount of recognition she got, but that another person may have tried to as a way to bring fame to his own name; that has nothing to do with whether or not what she did is "that special".
@jasonreiyn9311
@jasonreiyn9311 3 месяца назад
This is the kind of thing that sounds exactly on brand for publishers. They look at worst case scenerio's regarding their products and eliminate them. Not always a good thing, not always a bad thing, but it is a consistant behavior.
@brianinthepark5429
@brianinthepark5429 4 месяца назад
Thanks for making a video on this. The timing of her death Will always tarnish his stuff now. Farewell Jennell. ~Brian
@andykaufman7620
@andykaufman7620 4 месяца назад
The idea of a 'non-linear' dungeon did not get 'invented' by that woman. That module was published in 1979 and 1980, and both are great dungeons, but in fact the idea of a 'non-linear' adventure or dungeon go back to the start of how the concepts of rpg's begin so that solving a problem can have multiple solutions or approaches. most GM's as the early 70s rolled by started with a single piece of graphpaper and might have had a single entrance, but often there are multiple splits in the path so you can choose 'left or right' 'straight or through that door over there', Plus you have to keep in mind the homebrewed is where many actually ideas are generated, and not in published modules. To attribute this idea to a single person is a stretch and really it is an innovation, but 1976 has a module by Gary Gygax run at conventions, like Expedition to Barrier Peak and Tomb of Horors, which sure got published maybe in 1978 but was worked out and the ideas were already seeded in gaming groups, which were centered at convention play for larger sized groups. I think all this seem making a mountain out of molehill and maybe someone, if they really were playing back in that day were that person, perhaps in a homebrew who generated the idea. I personally have come up with ideas you have have seen in gaming, then had conversations with real game designers at TSR and low and behold those ideas found their way into the actual game as art or game mechanics. Yup, I really did that, because they were attractive or solid ideas, that a real need was perceived and the ideas were implemented. For example, ever play Marvel Super Hero rpg and wonder why there are levels above Unearthly but below (and above) Class 1000. I made a case why the game NEEDS levels, and soon after Shift X, Y, and Z were inserted into the FASARIP chart, and Class 3000, and Class 5000 In the end, all I care about is the game was improved and we got a better MSH game. Then we have Vampire 3e Revised. It was like White Wolf sat in on our games and took our house rules and made them official, like how to do Initiative quicker. Most good and streamlined play rules often come from homebrew play groups, and designers gather up the best and implement them. That is simply two examples, but there are a few more. Yet, had I been a gamer back in 1974 I could have made the leap of introducing multiple entrances to a dungeon. In fact, I made one in 1977. I had two ways to get in and kept it all on a single page. It is simply a case of fitting an imaginative or creative urge as you design a dungeon. I remember also thinking I want rooms that are not square. I wanted to do hexes and squares and I am sure I was not the first to put that on Graph paper, because it is a rather obvious idea and most likely many gamers did that when they designed their first dungeons. What really mattered was coming up with concepts of what you wanted to put in the dungeon, and yes you went to conventions and 'found' ideas you liked and incorporated or 'copied' that idea into your own game/dungeon designs, and modified them as you were inspired. That is not a bad thing.
@andykaufman7620
@andykaufman7620 4 месяца назад
Non linearity is more like freedom of choices in an adventure, rather than just directions in a 'dungeon'. It could be how to solve a problem like removing the monsters from a dungeon and say you go with diverting a river to flow into the dungeon and 'clear it out' or at least pummel the inhabitants, softening them up, to then go in and clear it is a possible solution that the GM might not design into their dungeon. That is true non-linearity, of course it can be a lot of other things potentially, but largely speaking it is open ended choice on the player's part. If GM's made more 'linear' adventures or dungeons it was due to the fact it was easier to design anticipated player choices. In other words, GM's might purposely limit the choices ,and opening them up generates more work for the GM. That means sure some GM's wanted the open sandbox approach, and designers of published adventures that could be more like a 'sandbox' setting like Keep on the Borderlands where you have many choices of what to do and where to go. But all that as a conception was there at the very beginning BEFORE DnD was officially created (edition 0) and as edition 0 was created it was fleshed out more.
@andykaufman7620
@andykaufman7620 4 месяца назад
Actually running a dungeon over and over and over again means you get to know the module like the back of your hand and sure you probably won't do something super small, but a bit larger, and yet it will allow you to tailor it, alter it, customize if you really want or need to, but the fact is you'll get good at it so running at Cons is a good way to practice.
@zenaudio108
@zenaudio108 4 месяца назад
Runequest fans fondly remember Jacquays for her co-authorship of 1981's Griffin Mountain together with Greg Stafford and Rudy Kraft. Thank you for flagging up her contributions to gaming. I hope that Jacquaysian becomes the preferred term going forward.
@karenorgan6203
@karenorgan6203 4 месяца назад
I can’t believe I have a copy of that module, I’ll have to take a look
@almitrahopkins1873
@almitrahopkins1873 4 месяца назад
That’s interesting. I learned it as non-linear design. It dovetails nicely with the decision-tree format for creating the adventure in general. It’s nice to know the history of who did it first, but it isn’t plagiarism. I would question putting a name to it beyond the descriptive phrase that I was taught. It’s like level-based spellcasting being called Vancian after Jack Vance or skill-based spellcasting being called by Loren Wiseman’s name. It requires knowing the name of the person who created it in order to know what it is. It looks like he tried to tip his hat to the pioneer and his publisher pointed out that he might owe her some sort of royalties in addition to that credit. Switching his name for hers maintains the flow of the title. You might also notice that he left the A off of his name as a subtle apology for leaving the S off of her name in the original title. I don’t see a scandal.
@nicknewing1196
@nicknewing1196 3 месяца назад
It took till the 1970’s to come up with the idea of more than one door to enter or exit a location?? Odd my house has two doors and it’s 400 years old!
@davidhebart-coleman8610
@davidhebart-coleman8610 4 месяца назад
I guess it will depend on whether it gets changed back or not - as this will be a reflection on his motivation and whether 'this was a mistake" in his part.
@Mandalorian2814
@Mandalorian2814 4 месяца назад
I haven't read his boom, but cite your sources. He could have countered his publisher and said I'm going to honor her and keeping the term "Jaquaysing"
@Simply_NoroYT
@Simply_NoroYT 4 месяца назад
I've come to really anticipate your uploads after only three weeks of watching you, keep up the good work 🎉
@GrandNagusEli
@GrandNagusEli 4 месяца назад
Good work. Fair and level headed video on a difficult topic
@bearnaff9387
@bearnaff9387 4 месяца назад
This was not the gaming scandal I was expecting. When can we hear what you've found out regarding the Weisman Medium article?
@sablephoenix
@sablephoenix 4 месяца назад
My gosh, I've never seen a community that's so eager to eat itself over slights real or imagined than the OSR community (look at the never-released but still archived article The Worst People You Have Never Met and attached sound files that have recently been discovered). Don't these people have anything better to do than get outraged over minutiae? Is Justin Alexander now going to get the same treatment as Zak Smith received?
@dungeondr
@dungeondr 4 месяца назад
Can we start referring to his site as the Jaquasian? But on a serious note, I don't think there was malice in the name change, but it was very short sighted. The term should have been neutral, not his own name 🤦‍♂️
@Shammoria
@Shammoria 4 месяца назад
The one thing that i still dont understand, eho actually coined the term, because it sounds that due to the mispelling that he actually coined the term and is therefore the author and owner of the term so if he recoins the term as the creator of it he has the right and is more in line with what his editor requested and the fact that the term didnt come from her, the question regarding honouring her is a weird one to me as i only knew of her because of the alexandrian, so technically she would be unknown tonme if it wasnt for that article, and i think that trying to boil all of her work dow n to a single idea is also in as poor taste, she contributed more to the game and world than just multi route dungeoning, which technically isbjust nerdifying military breach and hostage strategies by the way, but there is much much more she contributed to that needs yo be honoured and remembered!
@EdwinSteiner
@EdwinSteiner 4 месяца назад
I have Alexander's book, and reading it without knowing about any of this, I actually tripped over the term "xandering". He uses it as if it was a well-known term and it makes the whole section annoying and confusing to read. I had to re-read it several times, thinking to myself "am I missing something that he doesn't just call this non-linear dungeon design?" Simply calling it "non-linear dungeons" and acknowledging Jaquays clearly would have been the right thing, both morally and also for the quality of the text. I think both "Jaquaysing" and "Xandering" are stupid terms, but on top of that, naming the latter after himself is in very poor taste. That said, the allegations that Alexander is trying to "erase" Jaquays sound like an overreaction triggered by seeing the world through an intersectional lens. In the "Acknowledgements" section Alexander writes "*Jennel Jaquays is the ultimate guru when it comes to xandering the dungeon*." Her name is the third name mentioned after Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer in the acknowledgements. That's not how you erase someone from history.
@ninthoctopus204
@ninthoctopus204 4 месяца назад
This guy rubs me the wrong way.
@eyrilonakestrysswyn3513
@eyrilonakestrysswyn3513 4 месяца назад
I see several commenters arguing that the technique should not have been named for one person in the first place because it seems the same idea was invented independently several times, including according to some by themselves who say to have never heard of Jennell Jaquays before. But even if we accept that position, can we still agree how ridiculous a move it is for Justin to sell this design method to the next generations of DMs as Xandering now? Justin Alexander was BORN on December 4, 1979. This means that several of the modules considered exemplary of this design style, including the Caverns of Thracia which is mentioned in this video, were already published in print before he was even born, let alone contributing to any theory of dungeon design.
@MemphiStig
@MemphiStig 4 месяца назад
"Ja-kays" was how *she* said it, btw. Just to clear it up for everyone.
@davidgaskin5417
@davidgaskin5417 4 месяца назад
This was considered the biggest controversy in the gaming community? Huh, thought it was something else.
@simontmn
@simontmn 4 месяца назад
Yeah. Funny, that. :D :D
@therocketboost
@therocketboost 4 месяца назад
Thank you for covering this. I was not aware of this controversy and am rather disheartened as I too found The Alexandrian to be an excellent resource. If you fancy more despair, I would actually be very interested if you could do a video giving your opinion on the recent Medium article titled "The Worst People You Have Never Met, or, What I Learned During A Four Year Academic Study of Online Harassment In The Dungeons & Dragons Community" as its a pretty horrific deep dive into some appalling behaviour by some pretty established names.
@GeekGamers01
@GeekGamers01 3 месяца назад
The excuse that his publisher asked him to change the term because of legal risk is highly suspect to me, someone who has worked in book publishing for decades. I don’t see how that would have happened.
@jackoflames
@jackoflames 4 месяца назад
I am very skeptical to the idea that he felt like he had to change the term to something putting him in focus. It's important to remember, many people have such a fixation to be remembered and seen up to that any chance they get to do so, they will take it, even if it isn't their own work. And if he really wanted to honor her and still was somehow pressured to change the term, he could've based the name on something she liked, or on a core aspect of the design idea.
@lanir9543
@lanir9543 4 месяца назад
Children will sometimes recognize a (good or bad) trait someone has and refer to that trait with the person's name. We don't usually do this as adults because it oversimplifies who they are and fits them into a very small niche. It's not bad for a single conversation but you wouldn't want to coin it as a general term. People identify with their names and can be quite reasonably touchy about what you do with it. So yes, the best route would have been not using a name at all. But it's really hard to erase someone's legacy while crediting their work, don't you think?
@Daalon4RPGs
@Daalon4RPGs 4 месяца назад
I think Goodman Games is going to re-release The Caverns of Thracia for DCC “soon”. If anyone wants to double check that, I believe it was posted in an update for The Dark Tower Kickstarter campaign.
@BobBrinkman
@BobBrinkman 4 месяца назад
I'm the designer who was given the privilege of converting both Dark Tower and Caverns of Thracia for DCC. Throughout the process, I was in contact with Jennell for clarifications, as well as clarifying how she would like some things to be handled today. I am crushed that Jennell will never get to hold the new Dark Tower in her hands.
@Daalon4RPGs
@Daalon4RPGs 4 месяца назад
That is sad. Sorry for your loss. Thank you, though, for continuing on that legacy.
@BobBrinkman
@BobBrinkman 4 месяца назад
@@Daalon4RPGs you are too kind. Her passing is a loss to all of us. I was blessed to have worked with her, and I can honestly say that her passing is a loss to the entire RPG community - whether or not newer players realize it. Beyond her work as an RPG game designer she was also a gifted artist, the Director of Game Design for Coleco for Colecovision, created the first D&D 'zine and so much more. Oh, and she LOVED dragons..... Her wife, btw, was a founder of Interplay Productions and was the designer of Bard's Tale III as well as many other projects.
@squattingheads
@squattingheads 3 месяца назад
tbf her not being grateful for being a verb and being petty about the name, kinda gives him all the right to change it. especially when he coined it in the first place. Inventions are never named after the one who invented them, but by the one who was first to recognize the significance of the invention. rightfully so.
@squattingheads
@squattingheads 3 месяца назад
Because lets be absolutely fair. She CLEARLY is NOT the first one to invent variable Dungeons either
@thebtm
@thebtm 4 месяца назад
Couldn't they just say, non-linear dungeon exploration?
@robertstull8759
@robertstull8759 4 месяца назад
Yeah... but that's not as catch a name lol
@KimKhan
@KimKhan 4 месяца назад
Taking an established term and then renaming it after yourself is narcissistic. No way to get around that, I am afraid. Also, have a Bellman joke. Once a policeman was walking down the street in the city, and he saw Bellman jumping up and down a manhole cover shouting "47! 47! 47!" The policeman was confused by this, walked up to Bellman, and asked "What are you doing?" "I am playing 47! Wanna try?" Bellman replies back. The policeman is hesitant. "Come on, it's fun! All you do is jump up and down on a manhole cover and shout 47!" The policeman was unsure, but Bellman convinced him to give it a try. So, the policeman stood on the manhole cover, and jumped a bit. "47, 47, 47..." "No! No! No! Louder! Jump higher!" And so the police man jumped a bit higher and said "47, 47, 47". "High! Louder!" Bellman encouraged, and the policeman was jumping as high as he could, yelling at the top of his longs "47! 47! 47!" And then as the policeman was jumping as high as he could, Bellman grabbed the manhole cover to the side, and the policeman fell down the hole. Then Bellman put the manhole cover back, got on it, and started jumping and yelling "48! 48! 48!"
@rauwetter
@rauwetter 3 месяца назад
That's in all a very OSR like discussion. 1979 the non-linear approach wasn't that innovative outside D&D. To bring it in a perspective, at the same time RQ Apple Lane and Snape Pipe Hallow were published. Jennell Jaquays helped in developing the mechanics with others, but especially introduced D&D player to it. And Justin Alexander came a few decades too late to the party.
@dark-folklore
@dark-folklore 4 месяца назад
I have read some of the blog posts by Alexandrian. Some are very good. For example, the ones about node location design and managing clues in a mystery. Yet, everything else I did not find useful. Thus, I stopped reading the blog years ago. I will probably buy hi's new book to finally have a definitive opinion on how useful hi's content is for me.
@pixledriven
@pixledriven 4 месяца назад
Note: Justin and Anne have both posted updates. Seems most of the accusations were wrong, or misinterpreted.
@THELUBINTHEMORNING
@THELUBINTHEMORNING 4 месяца назад
🕊️ Rest in heavenly peace Jennell Jaquays 🕊️ Thank you for the fond, fun memories in Age of Empires and DnD, and for making games better forever.
@Pushing_Pixels
@Pushing_Pixels 3 месяца назад
The "publisher made me do it" excuse would be a lot more convincing if he hadn't gone back and re-written the history of the term on his blog. That is erasure. Just say "I'm calling it something else in this book for legal reasons" and let the historical record speak for itself.
@ebenflick7371
@ebenflick7371 4 месяца назад
What's the deal Discourse. RU-vid keeps unsubbing me
@kdog3908
@kdog3908 4 месяца назад
I never even knew building dungeons like that was even credited to someone and i've been playing TTRPGs since the 80's. Must've been an American thing. You live and learn.
@NameNotAChannel
@NameNotAChannel 4 месяца назад
I live in america, and I never attributed this building style to any individual... it seems pretty basic to me, when you get right down to it... I'm sure it was created independently by a great many people. (even my teenage self's (I'm 47 now) MUD designs had non-dnd "dungeons" with multiple routes and such, and I never read anything by any of these people.
@GrandBreaker
@GrandBreaker 4 месяца назад
​@NameNotAChannel This is correct. I took a short peruse of Janelles twitter a while back, and she hadn't been relevant in the TTRPG space for decades. She actually spent about 90% of her day on Twitter ranting about Trump and trying to praise Biden, and ironically went way off the deep end to support MAPA
@kdog3908
@kdog3908 4 месяца назад
@@NameNotAChannel I looked at her Wiki page and found a lot of her early stuff was published in 'Dragon' magazine. A magazine you couldn't even get in the UK. At least, not easily. Some outlets would occasionally import several copies but that made it surprisingly expensive. It's little wonder she was not really known here in the UK at all. In this age of the internet, it's easy to forget how relatively fragmented and isolated TTRPG players used to be. Certainly in an international context.
@kredonystus7768
@kredonystus7768 3 месяца назад
Any hole is a goal only works if there are multiple holes.
@notaninquisitor7274
@notaninquisitor7274 4 месяца назад
I have a sneaking suspicion that a publisher suggesting "legal trouble" is code for "we would have difficulty creating predatory lawsuits against other authors", not "we might be risking lawsuits against ourselves".
@noneayourbusiness5149
@noneayourbusiness5149 4 месяца назад
I think the article is probably a bit over-zealous, but you and several other commenters have made completely valid points: Don't rename something named for someone else to now be named after yourself. That can ONLY look bad, even if you were 100% sincere (which seems very unlikely. There has to be at least some level of selfishness involved in wanting to name something after yourself). While I don't think he's a complete narcissistic grave robber... he's definitely not acting in good faith either.
@otakuofmine
@otakuofmine 3 месяца назад
its in bad taste, especially as he didnt need to use his own damn name, gosh. why is he surprised by the reactions than? for legal issue: simple solution - an asterisk behind referring to a note in the beginning that the name was changed to avoid legal issues. even more so it sounds that he or the publisher forced the publishing without trying to attain the okay to use term (which seems planned originally), especially with the "bad" timing for such. still, doing the note-asterisk method and using a more neutral term for it would have avoided absolutely everything. if he felt like to still honour her name, maybe he could have dedicated the book to her (i think thats legally okay)
@arcady0
@arcady0 4 месяца назад
If the publisher wanted to change the name... should have just changed it to 'non-linear dungeon design' with note in the first paragraph of that being explained mentioning that "this is the system created by Jaquays".
@dicariel
@dicariel 3 месяца назад
I think that Jaquays is clearly a hero to The Alexandrian. He made a mistake in renaming the technique after himself.
@GavinRalston13
@GavinRalston13 4 месяца назад
American Psycho reference was perfect.
@Heldermaior
@Heldermaior 4 месяца назад
You cannot plagiarize game systems. It is not legally possible. I think it is a bit... You know, a bit. But at the same time, it is not like he basically lifted entire chapters from other authors. The publisher justification makes a lot of sense. Probably the publisher was thinking that if the idea is not conveyed accurately could leave them liable or something US Law silly. Edit: forgot to add but instead of inserting himself he could've just called the chapter nonlinear dungeon design. That would've made it better imho. And the self insert reeks of "smelling own farts for too long" syndrome.
@Canuovea
@Canuovea 4 месяца назад
Delinearizing. There. Done. That would avoid the drama of slapping one's own name on a thing.
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