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I find Bookshelf speakers do best with imaging and the bonus is I need a pair of Subs! Cost of doing this also is much cheaper and I miss nothing....I even keep more money!
This is true as long as your bookshelf speakers are relatively flat down to at least 60 Hz. The lower they can go the better. I have never heard a bookshelf speaker crossed over at 80 Hz that integrated well with a subwoofer. The frequency is just to high.
That is one of the oldest fallacies in audio. It just isn't true but is nonetheless spouted by audiophiles ad nauseam. Large speakers today generally no longer have 2 foot wide baffles around their mids and tweeters and with competent design image as well as any small monitor. All the over 6 foot tall speakers I've owned do so.
I find full range speakers do fine on many music sources without a sub but it does depend on the room. Adding a sub can give you best of both worlds and, if setup right, can extend good low frequency bass. Also adding a sub (or two) could mean you can run less than full range speakers and still have a great sounding system.
A subwoofer is almost always needed for the best experience for the very reason in the video - proper speaker placement isn't ideal for bass reproduction. I also think that a high level system should be flat past 20 Hz so you know that you can reproduce anything properly. It's not just about the actual notes being played but also room information in the recording. This means that a speaker being true full range isn't something I put very high on my list of demands since it's not easily remedied with a subwoofer, a sub is actually more suited for it in the vast majority of rooms.
I remember back in the 60s and 70s, 'full-range speaker' was used to describe a single driver in a table radio! 'HiFi speakers' were just assumed to be full-range!
@@dhpbear2 Circa 1970 my brother got a Japanese-made guitar and an open-backed transistor amp with an 8" speaker that had a whizzer cone. I think that's the last time I saw one.
Hi Paul, this piece of information (best place for bass reproduction is different then that for high/middle) is for me the most important of all your videos I saw till now. Thank you very much :)
Some good thoughts and perhaps a teaser for a future sub? A really good pair of speakers should work great in any room without a lot of setup. A nice subwoofer is a must have for deep, smooth bass. Also, due to recording inconsistencies, a level attenuation for a subwoofer would be a good idea.
Size of room must come in to it! My music room is roughly 13ft x 12ft. My floor standing speakers (Mission 753) give off quite a bit of bass, I just can't imagine adding more bass would improve things. The speaker placement advice was brilliant though I never would have thought of that! :)
My large floor standers have an ‘in room response’, according to the manufacturers specification white paper, down to 26HZ and I’ve no ground to dispute that, they sound phenomenal and absolutely full range. However the performance is massively enhanced by my pair of Rel subs. Why? Well I beleive, much as Paul says, it’s down to physics. Each time you drop am octave, you halve the frequency response, say from 400HZ to 200HZ. You then need twice the power to maintain the SPL at that frequency. This is exceptionally difficult for any combination of amplifier and floor standers to accomplish. That’s where’d powered subs come into their own, augmenting that bottom end. Also, as Paul pointed out, it allows you greater flexibility with placement. Could I live with out that pair of Rels augmenting my floor standers? Easily. But, I would prefer to keep them. Once you’ve experienced a decent pair of speakers, enhanced by subs, let me assure you there is no turning back.
I have recently come to the conclusion that it is much better for a typical home room to pursue better bass. Once you get the bass nailed, everything falls into place. you get better bass obviously, tone, and voices. Everything sounds much more realistic. I somehow seem to have improved imaging and sound stage as well from this setup. It took hours of moving each speaker one inch at a time but the diffference was absolutely profound.
I agree. A sub is very helpful, and this is why. I have an old school receiver (Pioneer SX-1250) that drives my speakers just fine, with ample bass. But that bass changes depending on where you are in the room. At one place in my room you get and feel bass. But I have to run the speakers out of phase to get the same results in a different area of the same room. A sub eliminates that.
The explanation begs the question: why bother to do full range speakers? Or even why do they keep putting the woofers, midrange and tweeters in the same box?
Well, you need bass down to a certain point to be delivered by the main speakers because down to about 80 Hz, or so it goes, bass is directional, meaning that you can pinpoint the source of the sound. If you had a subwoofer delivering that then you would hear certain parts of a track as coming from the sub, thus making any proper imaging impossible.
@@MrTheDarku Sure, I just wonder however how much of those 28K are "wasted" in providing subwoofers which are just partially taking advantage of, per Paul's explanation. Actually they already ship woofers and midrange / tweeter as separate boxes, all they would need to do is to provide a separate stand for the upper box. Isn't it?
@@thecaptain2000 That wouldn't quite work since you would not want that midrange to be pushed down to where you want to integrate your subwoofer. In that case I'd rather hope for one of the future models to have the same tweeter and midrange but fewer woofers.
Paul...this is directly from your site. 28Hz-20kHz (-6dB) for the FR30's. The -6db pads your numbers. Much more accurate would be +-3db......yet you just said in this video that it bothers you that manufacturers dont provide fair specs....but then PS Audio does the same. 🤯🤯🤯
Hi Paul, thanks for answering the question.. but I really wanted to know the difference in design philosophy between the FR-30 with passive woofers and radiators VS a Vandersteen that has passive woofers, but then a built in active subwoofer section to really dial in that bass; and if both were truly considered "full range" speakers. That's what I really wanted to learn about! Not sure if you can answer me on here, but that would be very helpful as I decide what my "end game" speaker would be. Thank you!
What Paul is saying is it’s all about how they behave in your room. You can’t make blanket statements like the answer you’re seeking. Also try the PSA forum.
This was Paul's response: Jim is correct but beyond that, both would be considered full range, I suppose. Full range would mean that the speaker covers the full range of human hearing of 20Hz (or so) to 20kHz (or so). I would suggest both speakers do that. An active woofer (like anything) has both plus and minus benefits. On the plus side the gain and EQ can be adjusted to better fit the room where with a passive approach like the FR30 that’s really not possible. On the down side (and one of the reasons we didn’t go that route) is that it’s a challenge to make an active woofer system as seamless and integrated as properly designed passive woofers. Both approaches can be great. In the end, for the best systems, we still need a separate subwoofer. That is because no matter where you place your main speakers in the room for best imaging from 100Hz up you are almost guaranteed it’s not the best place for frequencies lower than 100Hz. And even with the addition of controls like those of an active woofer, no amount of EQ and level can make a woofer flat where there is a room null. You can lower peaks, but it’s nearly impossible to fill in nulls.
BTW, this was Jim's comment that Paul was referencing: I believe PSA was originally considering a speaker with an active bass section similar to the Vandersteen, but abandoned the concept due to cost. Both active and passive designs can be considered full range, but the benefit of an active bass speaker, or subwoofer, is an added measure of control. Plus, it takes some load off the main amplifier.
Unless you have the perfect room Optimum Subwoofer placement Is Hardly ever underneath your mains. Also Since you will be needing A sub(s) Do you really need your mains to be “full range”
Hi Paul speakers look great. What is the placement measurements of the speakers distance from front wall, and side walls, and to your chair? just curious. Also the size of the room?
So if what you say about positioning the main speakers for best all around performance and separately positioning the subs for optimal base, can the upper (treble/mid) and lower (base) of the FR30s be disconnected/unmounted and positioned separately like the IRS5s?
the definition full range has a soft cap, some would be happy with 40hz on the music they listen to. others like me need 16hz to hear and feel more of the content in the material. full range is defined by me from how i perceive loudness in listening position, so that 16z up to my 13khz limit to be of same loudness.
For a music only system, I am one listener sitting in the sweet spot with an SVS SB3000 sub which is very powerful for the room. Is there any advantage going with a second subwoofer?
Hi Paul Could you share with us any measurements taken in anechoic or better still predicted room response so to give us an insight into how they perform acoustically and electrically What do you use to measure them ? That klippel suite or rew ?
There's a free program called "speakersim" that can do basic room boundary effect simulation. If you want to explore the impact of the room and speaker placement on bass frequencies (and simulate crossovers, baffle diffraction, etc), this program is very useful and helps reveal the problem being described in this video... There's such a thing as baffle step loss, then below that frequency we usually find a few room reflections that cause dips in response where they destructively couple with the primary wave, then below that we get room gain when the waves are larger than the room, (effectively jut pressurizing the whole room up and down).
I love PS audio but there are a few big issues with their new FR30: 1) crossovers are set in the critical human freq range of hearing 2) tweeter and midrange are too high up and too far from the ear
Love my Legacy Focus Se 18hz to 30 khz +/- 2 db. Powering with 1000 wpc Legacy iv 2 power amp is magic! But any speaker is dependent on the room they are in. Actually the room is more important than a speaker itself!
Hi, How do I run a 4 speakers stereo setup, are there any integrated amps that supports Speaker A+B not bi-wire but like two separate zones? I have AVR's but I want to have the same quality of Integrated amps or pre-power combo. Do I need two amplifiers? Thanks!
Paul, I tried to follow your advice, but my upstairs neighbor turned me away when I asked if I could setup my subwoofer in her kitchen 😅 Jokes aside, Paul is absolutely correct. However, if you're like me, you might not have the right space to put a sub out two wherever they really want to go. In that case, full range speakers would be a good idea. I ordered a set of Tekton Designs Moabs and am still waiting on them. They claim to go down to 20hz. With dual 12" drivers and a 3-way design, I think they stand a good chance of succeeding. My dual 6.5" JBL Studio 580's I have now are strong down to 38hz. Sounds pathetic, but even that is pretty satisfying for most music.
I was surprised to read on your own website, the FR30 is listed as; 28Hz-20kHz (-6dB) and there is no notation of this being an "in-room" measurement. And what's with the (-6dB)?? Most manufacturers use +/- 2 or 3 dB in their specs.
If I want to party, I use my full range speakers. If ever I want to do critical listening with proper sound stage, I use my Bookshelfs with an added sub.
Given the premise that you need a sub, then why all the large drivers and passive radiators for a speaker that can NOT be positioned for best bass response at the listener position? If you need a sub, then why not eliminate the complex driver array and associated complexities in the filter network inherent in the multi-driver approach. I think matching a sub to a speaker that reaches down to 25 hz. would be challenging and the end result would be filtering out all that low end technology all at the cost of coherence. Isn't that the elephant in the room when a truely "full range" speaker isn't really full range in the sweet spot necessitating a sub anyway and trying to get them to "play well" with you sub(s)? Utilizing smaller woofers (passive radiators if you want) provide a more articulate and detailed bass which is quicker and less colored in the upper bass region. A true champion large scale speaker would eliminate the need for a sub by providing dsp control of the "built in low frequency self powered driver" in the speaker to offset placement issues, all while providing remote level control from the listening chair to adjust for program source abnormalities in bass levels. This digital bass management could be integrated in the loudspeaker itself as to facilitate use in two channel analog systems. The dsp would only affect the low range driver as to not compromise the analog signal through the majority of the speakers response. It would require an ad > da converter built into the speaker as well as amplification in the speaker, but this would result in amplification cost savings upstream in the system.
For most of music listeners, woofers or passive radiators would do. Subs are for people who really want to enjoy the bass and are fussy about listening to lower frequencies. Most would suffice with mid-range.
I believe that is what ps was working on before CB hit the scene. Likely it was too expensive to implement in their first speaker offering. Look for it in the future if "aspen" has success
Full range (FR) may only require a smaller sub (or two) to extend low freq. where as non-FR may need larger or more subs for the same response. Everyone has a choice and there are multiple solutions depending on the room. I'd rather go for the placement option over DSP in a FR speaker ... in other words, placement first then filter adjustment (if needed).
Paul - kinda begs the question: why not just use excellent monitor/bookshelf speakers with subwoofers? The generally accepted thought is that monitors image better than full range speakers anyway. If the bass modules of PSAudio's new speakers don't create the best bass response in room when coupled to the mid/tweeter module why not just market a mid/tweeter and dual sub product? Just because audiophiles like me enjoy the aesthetic of an imposing "full range" speaker which doesn't happen to produce the best in room bass response? Seems like a unacceptable compromise which can be solved by ditching the bass modules and using subs. I'm sure the bass modules add a good bit of SPL and help "fill out" the low end, but seems like very expensive filler, the cost of which could be put towards some subs.
@@D1N02 I agree, a small 2 way bookshelf speaker with a single 5 or 6 inch driver won't give you that fullness in the lower midrange (male voices), specially in a large room, even with a subwoofer, a bigger speaker helps you to get that fullness in that midrange area (400 hz), again, specially in larger rooms.
There is also another factor to, "in room response" that is key to bass levels also; room volume, because lower frequencies have much longer wavelengths requiring more distance and volume to hit, or the wave will crest 40 feet outside your room rattling your dishes and cupboards with more power than in your room. You can still get some pressure in small room with some decent room boost resonance, but for people who like say pipe organ music, this is when this becomes more of a factor. Take for example the new Dune soundtrack, only a very few will experience the full sound it can deliver sub 10 Htz in room, note this is extremely hard to achieve, and a very expensive endeavor too. If you build a bass room with like over 1000 sq feet, you lose the room boost effect big time; so to compensate you need many more and large powerful non ported subs to recover it and room presser and retain some sound quality. Then you need to time align and eq it all after as well, and treat the room as well; and the real crazy bass heads will want stuff like near field subs (less than a foot away from their back) on top of the general 4 corner line source arrays around them. There is one group of audiophiles that grade subs out doors to get a better measurement at specific distances to eliminate room resonance boost out of the equation. #HowLowCanYouGo
@Douglas Blake 100% man! Have you ever been to any high end out door concerts? If so did you notice something different about the sound? Maybe a little cleaner, the bass is more of a single punch than a reverb? This is in essence what I am driving at above, but that is an extreme case because of insane costs, not many can do it.
A speaker spec of 20Hz to 20KHz is meaningless unless it is followed by a Decibel range such as plus or minus 3dB. Same for any other piece of audio equipment.
you have to hear it or feel it, no point having a mic measure a even response to 20hz if you dont think it sounds even all the way down. for example i need +9db at the lowest frequency to sound even all the way down.
@@sudd3660 It sounds like your personal preference is for a greatly exaggerated bass response. That can lead to the midrange being driven deeper into the soundscape, but it's your music and your listening experience. If you are listening at relatively low SPL readings, you may indeed need to boost the bass to compensate for the ear/brain's decrease in sensitivity at low level. But if you're listening at SPL constantly up near 100dB, enjoy your music while you still have your hearing. You won't have it forever.
@@Rick-lw5kc that is not how hearing works, damage is caused by high frequencies, talk to car audio spl folk that been in this for decades, that is all 100hz and below with extreme db. for my preferences and "exaggerated bass response." it not based on preferences but my hearing, you have to do you own testing and get some experience. and in the end you have to compensate for you own hearing. no mic can do that. all frequencies that is played back on a system have to be at equal loudness at listening position for your ears. that is the only way to account for everything.
Can the room be treated in a way to allow the current placement of the full range speakers be OK also for the lower range of frequencies? Perhaps not feasible from many PoVs but I'm curious if it's possible at all.
Yes, it can be done, and, frankly, it is the best thing to do if one knows how, which is the catch, very very few people actually know how to actually truly deal with room modes. Passive bass management takes -really a lot- of bass management units. Most bass management units (bass 'traps') don't work and the ones that do work are usually good for 1-3 db worth of management pre unit, so if you have a 26db modal issue that would take 9 bass management units perfectly placed (impossible) on that axis. It becomes quit a bit quite quickly... as there are 2 primary axis and more secondary ones. In my small listening room I have maybe managed 6-9db overall treatment of my 26-28 db primary room mode, via passive bass management. Helpful but not enough. So I invented an active system to handle the rest. It works, I have flat response from 20-20k in stereo at the listening position, no modal dips nor peaks and the music is liberated from the negative room mode effects.
@@mbfishing769 Right up until you've heard the difference. I'll just put out a few points in random order. First, untreated rooms... can't deal with the sound energy fast enough, so it lingers on and continues to impact sound negatively for far longer than is beneficial, natural or good sounding. Here is a tell, you're listening to a track and it sounds -really good- so you just want some more of it so you turn it up and that beautiful sound turns into sour crap. At this point most people blame- the recording, the amp being to weak, the speakers not being able to handle it. Truth is, none of the above, what is happening is the room is getting overloaded and the remnant sound is causing random and harsh interference with the new fresh sound. A fully treated room done up to the needed extent can handle -way the fk- more volume before the room falls apart. Two. What if the 'best spot' for the chair is someplace completely inconvenient in the room, how do you deal with that in an untreated room? Three. What if you want to have more than one seating position? Four. What is your plan to deal with the/any time delay issues from the woofer placement, I mean, it has to be perfect as the whole issue of bass in rooms has significant issues to do with time. Five. The negative effects of the primary big room modes effect sound all the way up the frequency range. They impact the ambiance of the recording, the ability of that to be represented in the playback room. It is quite amazing to unlock the soundstage in the recording via acoustic treatments. The soundstage in the mids and highs will also be liberated. In my small room I spent maybe $1500 to design build test develop my acoustic solutions. It took an unimaginably bad room with an insane number of issues and made it into a sublime playback room that has my not fancy system performing very well in every category of sound. There was no place in the room to plop a sub and fix it, I tried for like 4 years... Six. I like having even bass response at every location a person can be located to listen. Seven. I can follow the bass player, 100%, without having to try, it's just all there, the way it should be. (actually, in a properly treated room -everything- is there, as it should be, no worries, no strain, no drop-outs, no harshness, no sibilants, just smooth and effortless sound.) cheers.
@@bayard1332 Yes, it really depends on the room, listening positions and how critical you are. In general though most will be happy enough just to find a good sub position without treatments and maybe some sub DSP control but everyone is different. :)
@@mbfishing769 You cant solve all Low Frequency Problems with only positioning (same with High or Mids). You always will have some cancelation or peaks, thats why room acoustics (Absorption & Diffusion) are important and the only correct way to have control about it. Tight, direct Bassresponse isnt a positioning thing, its a combination of Placement, Speaker Quality, EQ / DSP & Room Treatment. But as you say, some people want to ,,rock,, a little bit more and dont want a dry, punchy lowend or a fully treated room
What's nuts is buying these gigundo speakers for $30,000 with 4 woofers each in front, plus passive radiators and then the company saying, you should get a sub too. As other comments have said, buy far less expensive but high end 2 ways that sit on stands that can be positioned for soundstage and the room itself, and then get one or two subs.
It's not full range unless it can play 20-20khz anechoic. However I agree just because it is doesn't mean you're getting full range sound in the room although I'd argue that you more than likely need multiple subs to accomplish that. That's why I'm a bookshelf guy, don't need towers if I'm just going to cross them over for bass anyway.
I do agree with Paul, but what earks me, is all speakers freq. response rating at 1 watt normally near the 90db range. Well do we all listen at 90? I sure don't. So there is a major roll off in the lower frequencies.. would be nice to see what 75 db looks like.
Problem with such low output is the Fletcher Munson curve where the ear naturally "tools off" the upper and lower extremes of music. It's not technically happening but it is a phsycho acoustic effect.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 Appreciate your educated response and again humbly agree. But would that be all the more reason to bring back the loudness control, preferably variable.
Over the past several months,, I am finding that more judicious use of the single subwoofer in my two channel stereo system indeuces more detail, transparency and a natural musical sound in the rest of the frequency range from my main speakers. I’ve lowered both the crossover frequency, the volume control and am now tweaking the phase control on my sub to bring about a much cleaner sound from my Maggie 3.6R’s. Vocals and instruments sound more articulate and my soundstage sounds less congested and is more well-defined across the frequency spectrum resulting in a much more realistic soundstage with much better image specificity from these adjustments. It’s these small fractional adjustments of these three controls to bring my system under tighter control. It’s a tricky procedure and it can vary if I play an Organ recording but I have very few recordings like this with ultra low frequencies in my musical library. Perhaps this is because most of the music I listen to is acoustic and not electronic but I really think the real issue is not having a second subwoofer. I may have to sell my Carver sub in favor of two smaller REL subs to achieve maximum performance but I’m not sure if I want to make this change at this point. The sound of my system is in my opinion quite remarkable but it’s these minuscule adjustments that make all the difference.
@Douglas Blake thanks Douglas. I’ve already done most of what you are suggesting. The biggest problem is having one subwoofer in a corner when I should have two subwoofers in my system or remove the subwoofer entirely. I messed around a little bit more with the subwoofer settings yesterday and I am reasonably happy with the results. I spoke to several room acoustic specialist and you have not considered the fact that recordings are done so poorly that many of them caused need to adjust the balance which I have the ability to do through my PASS Pre. You are indeed correct about moving a fraction of an inch to get a beautiful soundstage but it is so easy to move your head away from that spot while you are listening. It’s a slippery slope. BTW… there is no way I will move my subwoofer to the middle of a room or away from the system with all of the cabling that could be possibly involved. I am not the type of audiophile. I do use a laser pointer and a tape measure always when making speaker adjustments and listenings position adjustments. Everything you said is by the book and I’ve seen it before. The sweet spot is elusive but I have found it several times over the years and I believe that i’ve got it again.
All you need to do is get eight 15" subwoofers, one in each corner and one in the middle of each wall, turn them up completely and have perfect full coverage.
Thankfully I have a room that supports rather than cancel bass. Bass from my electrostatics is the best sounding bass I can remember outside of hearing a real bass drum from a symphony orchestra.
Smaller speakers might be able to reach 30-40Hz by using bass reflex or active EQ but when you play loud, smaller speakers will distort the bass as the cones start to reach the excursion limits and eventually will get damaged. That’s why you want to cross-over a smaller speaker when you add a subwoofer so you can get loud and clean sub bass not wasting power on a tiny woofer making distorted compressed bass. In fact, smaller speakers can often allow a cleaner and higher SPL for music genres with sub bass as a matching powered subwoofer will help offload all that sub bass power from it.
but the way most people hook up subwoofers and speakers---the speakers still get the full range signal too... which is just going sub out or a preamp out straight to a subwoofer input. The crossover on the sub just keeps freqs higher than the sub cross over setting out of the sub... correct?
@@petek6031 If you feed the subwoofer with the power amplifier output also used for your side speakers you possibly end up with a distorted sub bass from your side speakers compressing the bass and the amplifier will waste a lot of power on that poor bass causing the rest of the frequency band being less dynamic. Better is to cross-over between sub and side speakers on a line level before power amp.
@0:47 "...the Vandersteens that you bring up, I'm sure would be considered a full range speaker" The Quatros go down to approximately 30 Hz. I am not sure about the Kentos. The Sevens go down to 20 Hz. So it is a question of whether or not 30 Hz is technically full range. I believe that the Fives go down to 20 Hz, but they are discontinued. But even full range speakers can benefit from sub woofers. Why? By using a high pass filter, you can take strain off of the main amps (bass notes strain amps the most), by sending less energy to the woofers in the main speakers. Your sub woofers will compensate, and you will have full range, with mids that are more easily controlled by your less strained amps. Also, by reducing the amount of bass coming form your main speakers, you will reduce the amount of shaking taking place with your main speakers. That will allow you mids and highs to not shake (or shake less), and you will be rewarded with a more stable image; a more focused image. Vandersteen offers sub woofers for his model Seven speakers, even though those speakers can effortlessly reproduce 20 Hz. The Sevens have built in amplifiers for the woofers (I believe 400 watts). But the addition of the sub woofers still helps, as I outlined above. Vandersteen (Quatro and up, as well as subs) also has eleven potentiometers that allow you to compensate for room issues (bumps and valleys in various bass frequencies). Once set, nearly any room will have a flat response in the listening position.
I have 3a Signature’s and the in room response in my room with them is 22hz , they are rated to 26hz. I have a JTR Captivator RS1 that I have tuned to the 3a sigs using REW and the sound I get is exceptional.
Before I bought my aDs l810s I researched the company, long since defunct and found that they posted conservative and verifiable specs on their loudspeakers. Then, when I hit the jackpot and received a pair of their 910s, I truly found my nirvana, and they're most certainly full-range, going down to 25htz in-room. They're my end-gamers as I highly doubt I could find a better loudspeaker for the price I paid for these.
A full range speaker should be capable of - 3dB @ 20Hz in room. I'm surprised this speaker only does 26 Hz. Sorry Paul, but I wouldn't pay $30,000 USD for a speaker that couldn't hit the 20 Hz mark. It isn't that hard to do.
@@cablebrain9691 Not at all. Many of my friends have speakers under $10,000 that do 20 Hz. At this price point it should be expected for a full sized speaker. Totem Mani - 2 is spec'd 3Hz higher (- 3dB @ 29Hz) and it's a small bookshelf speaker that retailed for $4,000. It uses an isobarik topology to get the deep tight bass in a compact cabinet at the cost of some sensitivity. There is no excuse in a large speaker as it's been done many times. The $10,000 Thiel CS 5i (circa 1990) did 20 Hz albeit with a somewhat severe impedance response but nothing a robust solid state amp couldn't handle ( Levinson, Krell, etc.) My guess is PS Audio amps don't like 2 ohm loads so they went with a design that is a moderately easy load to drive but that's not to say that 20 Hz performance necessarily involves a severe impedance load.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Well sure, it's all a matter of trade-offs. Certainly it can be done, but at the expense of something else that was felt to be of greater importance. When I said that it is hard to do at a reasonable size and cost, I meant that for a very high quality and attractive speaker. And true "full-range" is not even the design goal of many speakers, even some expensive ones. But I think that Paul's speakers are fairly full range at 25 or 26 Hz, even if not absolutely full range. My Joseph Audio RM25XLs (ported) are +/- 2db at 32Hz-20kHz and I feel almost no need for a subwoofer. I may try connecting one, but I don't find it at all necessary for 98% of the music I listen to. I also have an old pair of JS Engineering Infinite Slope model IIs (125 lbs. each with a sealed enclosure) that go fairly deep but do benefit a bit at the very bottom with my 15 inch HSU sub (sealed). I only run the sub at and below 30Hz.
The real question is... It worth an expensive full range speaker? Couldn't be more interesting to buy a very good speakers and adding a very good pair of subwoofers? A cheaper solution. I haven't extremely high quality speakers and subwoofers but I have 4 audio systems and 2of them are 2.1, one is 6.1 and the last one is a simple stereo one with a pair of Kef C55 with 1 8" woofer and a 8" passive radiator. I love the sound of all of them, but the stereo one has a nicer low sound. Is faster is more dynamic. Peehaps with better subwoofers will get something like this...
Paul missed the point COMPLETELY! The gentleman asking the question alluded to the answer in his question. A TRUE full range speaker needs to have at least one subwoofer built in. Ideally with a 12 inch or 15 inch woofer. IF you have this kind of speaker (such as the JBL K2 S9900 for example) THEN you have absolutely no need for a separate subwoofer. Unfortunately, the speakers Paul is displaying in this video look like they only have 8 inch (10 inch max) cones. Not enough to produce REAL BASS. The speakers in this video provide midrange and treble ONLY. In that case, you add a high quality subwoofer to provide the missing bass. It's that simple really.
The problem with using steady-state room measurements (in-room response) is that its largely dependent on the dimensions of the room itself. As a matter of fact, the room pretty much controls much of the bass response via its dimensions and modes, and the speaker really isn't free of the effects of the room until it gets above 1 kHz. Saying that one speaker or another doesn't get there "in room" really means that the speaker does not have the necessary SPL capabilities to get there. Even small DSP based studio monitors can have a flat response down to around 30-40 Hz in room, but good luck playing above about 75-80 dB. The woofer will simply run out of travel and the automatic limiting will roll off the response to avoid that. In addition to reducing the number of drivers needed in the main speakers, the addition of a sub has that benefit of being a large, long-throw driver that has the needed displacement to reach the sub-bass region, especially if room corrections are being applied. Those can really eat up the headroom in a system and having one of the drivers do nothing but bass really helps. But conflating the anechoic measurements and the in-room response is poor practice as you are introducing another variable that is not only uncontrolled, but also easy for people to lie about to fluff up perceived performance. Better approach would be to do what Erin at Erin's Audio Corner does and perform compression testing. That along with the speakers frequency response and THD measurements will tell you all you need to know regarding bass. And hearing Paul talk about specs. Seriously? If he wants to have any weight behind that argument, then he needs to actually provide said specs in the form of real measurements and not silly tolerance ranges that manufacturers usually do.
Why don't you answer my question what is your recommendation for speaker distance apart but from the woofer or end of speaker and the distance from the listener to the money spot. Can you just answer the question please.
2 года назад
You cannot get flat bass response with one sub in a normal room. With 2 or 4 subs you could do a lot better.
So...what uou are saying. Is that a "full range" speaker...even one from PS audio...is NOT a full range speaker at all. Even spending 30,000.00 on what is being marketing as a be all, end all, self contained speaker system, is not, in fact, that at all? Got it...
Wow. Just caught Paul talking about OTHER manufacturers that list specs that aren't fair yet I can point out a spec from PS Audio that is 100% bull. So he's just like the rest of them. Paul you a pot calling a kettle black. You sell a Stellar S300 power amp. You list power ratings or watts generated at 8ohms and 4 ohms. YOU LIST BOTH CHANNELS DRIVEN AT 1KHZ! MUSIC covers a frequency range of about 30hz to 10khz. NOT JUST 1KHZ. You fluffed numbers using one tone. So Paul...what do you have to say for yourself?? Busted!
@@Mark-lq3sb Many likely do care but not always. Just like the people that have a baby grand piano in their home but don't play. :) You'll normally find speakers that sound just as good for 1/4 that price. To each their own though ...
