Good suggestions. Everyone has a particular budget. Let’s not forget for any upgrade we should also consider the room as an “extension” of the speaker and budget for that as well.
Great video Paul. The term “Synergy” must always be in the forefront of understanding what it takes to create a great audio system. In addition, working on lowering distortion in the individual speakers and everything else that it takes to create better ‘speaker system’ by placing this system component first when creating a synergistic system is paramount. I believe that your ‘speakers first’ philosophy has always been correct and will always be.
The era of my trial and error with sound equipment was in the '70's and confined to car systems. I found back then that a good speaker combo properly installed using the available acoustics and enhanced with a cheap eq. I could drive 40 watts of very clean sound in a confined atmosphere. I agree it starts with the spealers.
@@bennyjorgensen what's your xmax and xmech? Because you can have a low fs but if you don't hardly have the throw to accommodate it then you won't be able to slap that brass monkey and make the windows shake as you turn it up past 10
@@SheikhN-bible-syndrome As I mentioned: "so it's only good if you need to play loud" The datasheet to my driver sais: "Linear coil travel (p-p) 24 mm" I have more than enough bass volumen, when I play. I don't need to shake the windows.
Budget should be spread in order to get a balanced HIFI system. When you come to PS AUDIO channel, expect everything will be expensive so would your budget would be bigger as we are looking at a high end (aka expensive) brand. I would come here to hear the info but go else where for the equipment that suits my budget (if I’m starting to buy a HIFI system). Thanks to PAUL for sharing nevertheless.
Yep Those 21"s are just superb... implemented any number of ways.. ie., nearfield, LLT, open baffle, infinite baffle. The 8" coax variants are killer too.
The 'Golden Rule' re speakers is "garbage in, garbage out". $750,000 speakers fed a marginal source will sound marginal, at best. Spend two thirds of your budget on source & amp gear, & one third on speakers that are a good fit with your source & amps.
It's good that you always allow for the exceptions that make the rule. One of your favs fits that and reviewers always make big points out of it. Maggies are known for their speakers being able to stand up to significantly higher investments in amps and such. Some reviews of the LRS for example even state it did not sound like their expectations until they hooked it up to significantly more expensive electronics. And that they felt it was in league with that level of investment. And especially if used in a smaller environment that would not handle large cabinets. I bet from your earlier videos that you would agree to some extent that from currently available products the 3.7i could fit into systems far more expensive, until they could step up to your new FR30! I could easily drop 5x the cost of my 1.7i to get an amp that keeps up with them.
Great videos Paul and I always look forward to the next one. QUESTION: Can you explain to me with Ohm's law, why a 4 ohm resistance is harder to push than an 8 ohm or 16 even. What am I not getting?? Keep up the great work! Thanks, Sam- Glenolden, Pa.
Couldn't agree more that the speakers do most of the work. I have B&W 702 s2 speakers, which are about 5 grand a pair in USD I think. I had them hooked up to a hefty Rega amplifier which broke. I plugged in a $500 pioneer amplifier I use on another system and I'm so surprised by how little difference there is in the sound that I'm not going to bother getting another high end amp for the B&W's.
The most expensive part of a hifi system is the house. When I bought my house I wasn't into hifi. I wish I would have bought a different house that would have a good room dedicated for hifi.
The Great Speakers of the Past (Most, many of Us would still love to have a pair) e.g. AR 3-A,Large Advents, Dahlquist DQ-10, JBL-100, & yes, BOSE 901s all had 10 % or greater Harmonic distortion. But my Observation also is ; that with the right Powerful Amplifier( generally a High Current Amp of 100 Watts per channel or Greater) The Amps could & would mitigate that Barrier on the "low sensitivity"/ Acoustic Suspension" models. e.g. an old Phase Linear 700 on a pair of Large Advents or AR 3-A s would Sing with NO "appreciable" Distortion ... very satisfying. ;-)
@@Harald_Reindl I know. I worked in the Audio Industry for Many years. I Never had ANY respect for ANY iteration of the 90I or "Dr. Bose"... I always thought He was a Huckster
Thanks for the thoughts here. I'm working on a system now. Going to diy route ;) ( amp at least ). I'm debating trying out dinner diy ribbon speaker designs too ;)
Gerard Stroh*** Hi Paul*** I Got That Same 21 inch Sub Woofer Speaker and That Speaker Is Super Heavy Over 90 Plus Pound Speaker and Not Cheep Ether**** I Love Your PS Audio Videos*** Bye From Gerard Stroh****
Christina Carducci I have a late 70s twin reverb. the overdrive or distortion sound is not good. If i wanted to get a better overdrive sound what speakers would i get. it says 135 watts on the back of the amp. what ohms and what watt speaker? what type of speaker? Ive heard a less efficient speaker would break up any advice is greatly appreciated thanks
I change speakers more than anything else. I would rather set myself up with a "keeper" amplification and then experiment with speakers and sources. The amplifier is the heart of the system - everything should evolve around it.
Not sure i agree, got myself a pair of Kef R700 speakers for 650 euro. First i paired it with a denon pma-1600ne and it sucked big time! Now i have them paired with a Hegel H90 and they sound really amazing! Its far more important to match speakers and elektronics then to just get what you can afford..
This is not such a simple question. If I imagine having to start a system from scratch, I think I would prioritize source gear just to ensure I could play (well) all the records, cds, sacds, blu-rays, and high-res files I've amassed over the years. And that would take a big chunk of my budget. And then the synergy of the electronics with the speakers would be a big deal--I wouldn't want either to be too far ahead or above the other. And here I think about speakers that reviewers and others regard as "scaling up." Some affordable speakers sound much better with high-end electronics.
Ive got a 32 yr old Surround Sound Amp. It always sounded good to me, on anything I threw on it. HOWEVER... the moment I hooked up some Audiophile grade 1970s era speakers on it... I was hearing things in music that Id never heard before. The quality of the Amp does not matter that much... unless you are trying to drive something like +$50k speakers. Meaning.. a speaker that draws far more power than your amp is capable of being able to drive it well enough into its power stride. The thing that will effect the quality of your sound most (other than the speakers) ...will be the Recording (compressed audio = flat garbage), and or whatever other sound source you are using. For example.. if you are using a PCs poor quality "On-Board" sound... its not going to output the same quality of sound, as a decent Dedicated soundcard. And or, if you are feeding your Amp low-fi steaming audio... what do you expect? In general... If you are feeding your Amp a Bluray disc... the audio should be far beyond the quality needed to demonstrate the difference between low quality speakers, and high-end audiophile speakers. Heck, Ive got standard DVDs that have phenomenally dynamic audio... that when blasted at full volume levels.. has Zero distortion, and sounds absolutely incredible. Unless your Amp is total garbage... with horribly audible fuzzy noise... (when nothing is playing on it... but turned up to high volume levels)... then the Amp really doesnt factor in that much on mid tier to affordable level audiophile grade speakers. Unless you have 100k speakers... than sure... get that crazy expensive Amp, that can produce distortion free output at 200 decibels. You will never be able to hear the quality of that amp... on affordable level speakers. They cant come close to reproducing it... as they have 1000x more distortions, due to their poor distortion causing drivers.
Speakers are where the money spent gets you most improvement. Even basic amps distortion levels are minute. Basic speaker distortion levels are hundreds of times that of amps, CD players, DACs etc. Get the best speakers you can afford. there's far less difference in distortion between different electronics than there is between cheap and quality speakers.
@Captain Win & John Dough: What I know about this is limited to my recent experience when my 30 y/o Bryston amp blew a power transistor about four months ago. So, I am on amp #3 with my entry-level speakers. I heard differences with all three amps. The first replacement was missing body in the mids. It was nice enough, but the sound was not near as good all around as the Bryston. The Bryston was way more forward with soundstage presentation, for instance, among many other things. The current amp is different again but much, much better, especially in the mids, but also in many other musical ways. Everything else in the system was unchanged. Only three different amplifiers. And I heard significant differences. And I don't disagree that different speakers are going to make a much larger and more noticeable difference in sound quality, and might be the place to start for many, but that amp/speaker synergy is there and needs to be considered--just as much, I think, as one would consider the best speakers for a particular listening space. So, I believe that when people talk about speakers scaling up, that what they are saying is that the speakers reveal higher quality resolution with better electronics. Thanks for the feedback.
@@hocktooey Are you sure that the differences that you are hearing... are not just due to Equalization? I personally bump up my Bass and Treble up to max on my Amp... as the way it is "Turned" requires it. Certain amps may be tuned Differently than each other... and a little change in EQ, can tend to get the results that you are looking for.
Nice video. This topic has really a lot of food for thaught. Nevertheless, regardless of how much i appreciate Paul about this channel and all the knowledge that he shares with us, i absolutely disagree with the suggestion for the speakers. From my experience, if you have a great source (digital or analogue) with basic speakers, you will get an acceptable outcome. But if you get expensive speakers with incompetent source, then the result will be bad. For me: source , source, source :)
The big trouble with being an audiophile is never being content with what you've got !! OR if you ARE then what happens when you unexpectedly stumble on a far far better system ...and then you hate or give up listening to your own system ...... there's ALWAYS someone wth a set up light years ahead of your own ....
Where did you get the idea that an "audiophile" is "never being content with what you've got." Where did you get that info.? According to you I can only buy one audio system in 5, 10, 20, 30 years? How long does one have to wait?
@@Mark-lq3sb to put it simply ... an audiophile is a person who is constantly craving for the ultimate system ( whatever that might be ..! ) This hits home when he /she hears something heaps better than what they currently have ... it's like cars too...
@@janinapalmer8368 If this is your opinion, that's fine. Everybody's entitled one. If not, please show me a written definition in a reputable publication repeating your definition word for word. My opinion, your statement is rubbish.
I would argue room treatment is one of the most important, if not the most important thing. Put a 15k$ stereo system into a non-treated room and you'll be chasing thing to improve in your setup constantly. Treating the first reflection points with proper rockwool panels would be the bare minimum, perhaps a cloud after that. Cheapest and largest improvement you can make to any system.
Great points. The room is everything... it's the one component that your entire system is funneled through. I'd add that the initial considerations for treatment are likely best spent focusing up in the front ... from around the outsides of the L/R mains and across the front wall between them. Discovered that from Art Noxon ... he convinced me and he's right. I too tended to always focus on sidewall reflection points first... until Noxon showed me a decade or so ago of the importance of the front of the room. That U shaped section up front... from along the sidewall on the Left side .... all the way around to along side the Right side... THAT region generates an overlay, a delayed blur that burdens the wavelaunch, diminishes clarity and smears focus... affecting both soundstaging and punch and impact. SBIR quarter-wave cancelation generates one issue, and can easily scoop out vital visceral impact. You made a good point about clouds. Typically, acoustic strategies are room/system dependent. No hard and fast rules. Absorption here, diffusion there, scattering and redirection too. Each situation may warrant a different approach, there aren't any rules of thumb. However, with ceiling treatment, clouds are essentially the rare one size fits all treatment approach... basically nothing good comes from the ceiling area between the listener and the loudspeakers. Aggressive absorption is in order there. Next, experimenting with speaker placement and listener location is key. Below the transition region, the pressure wave energy encounters resonances. Those resonances, or modes, are fixed and simply determined by room dimensions. Loudspeaker position determines which resonances are excited. Listener location determines which modes are heard. The speaker/room interface is everything. Best of luck.
I think Paul Klipsch created the definitive loudspeaker in the Klipschorn. It's not for nothing that it is on permanent display in the Smithsonian Institute.
Interesting that you’re moving out of hifi components and into the Pro Audio world. B&C make some great drivers that really deliver infrasonic response, I just wonder how long it will be before you’re using BMS in your top end????!
I've been looking at their stuff and despite the impressive size, haven't found one driver made to produce infrasonic bass. It really shows how inappropriate pro audio is to home and studio applications. Not surprising considering how often live sound is awful.
@@spentron1 Those B&C drivers can reproduce infra-sound and are often implemented that way... Not only are there countless diy examples of such, but also multiple mfrs. offer pro LF driver subs for infra-sound, including the B&C 21". Comments of poor live sound quality; ... perhaps you need a better seat (inside critical distance) at a proper live show... as state of the art live sound is abundant. Large scale sound reinforcement presents challenges for sure, however mammoth amount of tech development and sound propagation physics per venue... has pushed the state of the art nicely over the past couple decades. In my experience, low quality sound is oftentimes a product of inexperienced FOH engineer, or insufficient time to sort acoustic issues specic to a particular system in a given venue. A quality, well sorted rig, in the hands of an adept engineer ... operating in an adequately pleasant environment, can produce jaw dropping powerfully musical moments of enjoyment. Hifi? Absolutely
I beg to differ with that idea. If you've got a highend speaker. And cheap electronics your more apt to clip the amp into distortion blowing the speakers. My cr620 yahama amp was on a pair of b&w dm4s I must have blowen 5 midbass drivers trying to get it to play loud. Now if I had them same speakers on a Rotel amp with the proper power output they could play at 65 watts like they could handle but the cr620 only put out 20watts rms. So you really need to match the electronics to the speakers you buy. And play the system without the loudness on no bass and no trebel flat. My avr3040 advantage 9.2 reciver will play full volume clean on my Polk audio enter leval speakers and ive never blowen one. In fact its very loud. Now we are talking the 1970s vers modern 2000 gear here but be advised it still happens in car audio ive seen 18" driver launch a voice coil from too much power. A Rockford sub with the dustcap blowen out and 15' of wire and a coil tube. Was it a 15k watt amp that did it no it was probly a 250 watt cheap chip amp that clipped really bad. Once you let the smoke out you cant put it back in.
"Cheap" and "Underpowered" are two different things and your argument assumes some kind of correlation between the two. I have owned many amps and receivers over the years and I have never seen a higher end unit less likely to clip than an inexpensive one. Distortion and clipping coming from the amp is easily detected by the human ear even on mediocre speakers. Operator error is ALWAYS more likely to sabatoge equipment regardless of the cost or quality of it
no I disagree source is more important and preamp not so much Poweramp, of course you don't want a pair of rubbish speakers but it's subjective to the listener distortion is not necessarily game changer bad and can be enjoyable.
Agreed. I run 2 pairs of vintage Technics SB-2766 on my Kenwood Eleven iii. They were sold with a mid range hifi Sears catalogue components. Put them on the Kenwood Monster and they out perform HPMs...
I respectfully disagree. Sources first. Buy the very best sources you can afford. I've come full circle in my system several times and each time it is back to the speakers. Garbage in....garbage out.
Here I will disagree with Paul: the hardest part to get right is not the speaker but the room. Whether you own or rent your residence, your room is also likely (over time) to be your most expensive component. And it's the room which has absolute control over what you can hear. Any room's noise floor limits the resolution you can hear. The fundamental modes (and their harmonics) of a room control speaker size and placement. The reflectivity of the room to mid and high frequencies limit the quality (and how loud) you can play. Spend your money on the room, and after that on the music. Speakers come in third on my list.
@@captainwin6333 "Prepare for a divorce when you start treating your room." - in other words, you're saying that a marriage is the most expensive and limiting part of any system.
Yes an excellent pair of speakers will outperform lesser quality speakers driven with mediocre electronics. However, if you never get the electronics they truly deserve you'll never come close to maximizing them, and if you hear or know what they are truly capable of, you will be dissapointed or searching. I found this out after 3yrs of driving Sopras with good to great, but not excellent electronics, and it wasn't until I gave them excellent electronics that I found what they could do. Now listening to them is truly a joyful experience, and it doesn't matter the jaundra of music. But, yes, synergy in the system is key, and if you get it wrong, then fatigue or lack luster performance sets it. Look at the electronics as the drivetrain. All the advanced aero on the vehicle will give it an advantage, but with the right drivetrain, you'll maximize the vehicles performance. It's not easy, but it's definitely possible. FR30'sor any high tier speaker will perform, but the victory is certainly with the higher tier electronics.
I'm a big advocate for active. Both my big primary system and my editing, mix/mastering system are active. Our big family system is 7.3, 14.8kw active. The only element that's not active is my Infinite Baffle attic sub on a 2kw amp. Active is great, but either way can achieve equally good results. I'd suggest any system, active or passive, can achieve equal high performance. A well executed system is just that... and either approach can get you there. (the bitch is quality, low-loss passive components often cost a fortune!)
I can see the reasoning behind the advice, but get the wrong amp and you will blame it on the speaker. That's going to be a difficult spot to get out of.
I agree that the most money should be spent on speakers, but I continued to be very annoyed by every PS video being a sales schpiel for their hugely overpriced products.
@@johnholmes912 As a concept, making sure your power is clean is a good one. But it's problem you can solve for a hundred bucks or so with a power conditioner.
Speakers and amplifiers shouldn't have any sounding and just play a flat curve - no rocket science in 2022 - and for the sake of god if someone has whatever weird preferences it's the job of the DSP (and yes analog sucks except for morons)
"Speakers and amplifiers shouldn't have any sounding and just play a flat curve" - no, at least as far as speakers. Transducers mate to the air/room. "Flat" is never a reality. Any transducer will have its own characteristic paired with whatever environment in which if finds itself. Furthermore, it has been known for some time that humans don't like "flat" frequency response over their entire audible frequencies.
Smooth response is certainly a goal. However as stated flat response isn't often pleasing at typical listening levels. Then, progressing up into realistically live levels, less and less LF tilt is needed. Plus, spectral masking hinders our perception. Whereas a typical rising LF response curve tends to perceptually elicit less punch and bass clarity when experienced at those realistic playback levels. I can generate high SPL playback down into the single digits. I've got four 18"s, and four 15"s, serving my 31'x14' (9.5m x 4.5m) well damped room. It's wonderful to have all that on tap... but at high SPLs, our hearing diminishes ability to discern bass punch and visceral clarity when accompanied by high level sub bass. Like many enthusiasts, I love experiencing mammoth pressure waves of infra-sound. But balance is key, and certainly a vital factor in achieving the exact experience you're looking for. Huge sub-bass, or killer well defined punch and clarity... at realistically high playback SPLs, it's not easy to have both.
@@FOH3663 go away with infra-sound - quality not quantity hence subsonic filters for me! Again: the base should be a 100%as flat as possible curve combined with room acoustics - after that is reached there are tone controls and DSP to achieve your likings which always work better on top of a flat curve
Not the best advice.... the last thing you want to invest in is your speakers....you be surprized by how good a lesser expersive speaker may sound in a good system, my two pennies
