Jeremy Crawford has said that the intention was for the 7th level echo avatar feature to not be able to do anything but scouting: www.sageadvice.eu/2020/03/27/question-about-the-echo-knight-can-you-switch-places-with-the-echo-if-you-are-using-the-echo-avatar-feature/ If you would like to become a Patron of this channel: www.patreon.com/Treantmonkstemple
1- Not specifying something like that is a major oversight, using the Avatar to teleport is literally the first thing a lot of people thought to do. 2- Do we know exactly how the ability works? Like can you not attack or teleport with an Echo once you take control of it or is that just something that happens when it gets a certain range away from you?
This just leaves me even more with the impression that the book isn't WotC's best writing... the balancing is totally wack, and text is just "mysteriously missing" from the book? Hmmmmmm... Gotta say, I'm not really a fan of EGtW...
SharkForce 1000ft Range scout? That is able to attack once more than any other fighter at this level, including the fighter controlling it? plus action surge? The EcK already has the ability to tank better then barbarians, strike harder then monks, scout better than rogues and control the battlefield better than paladins. The only fun I see JC ruining with that one fix is the player who is already doing everything anyways... What about the other players man.
@@sharkforce8147 In JC's defense, he is very consistent that you should ignore errata/rules that you decide interfere with the fun of the table. I think if you allow the echo to do cool things that push the echo knight to hog the limelight, that might not be fun for a lot of the table though.
@@Staff7 oh hush it’s good, tired of people making fun of monk just cause you can’t divine smite, it’s a melee damage class that’s focused on having a bunch of consecutive attacks instead of swinging once with a great axe and missing
I'd argue that the 14 + prof AC is actually really good. Especially considering that it DOESNT scale with fighter levels, so you're going to get that extra bonus over time even if you multiclass.
@@Dragonspassage No it wasn't, that may be the lie Crawford likes to spin but if you check the DMG monster CR HP and DPR tables and bonuses vs players with level appropriate magic items, it fits, if they dont have magic items it doesnt.
I agree. Perhaps the echo knight could be more interesting if the echo doubled down on battlefield control and team support. Just like the God-Wizard. Maybe if his ability had limited uses, but gave every party member an echo? Or maybe if it's only unlimited when used on a party member? Klunky, but it would make the party not feel superfluous. And it would highly prioritize synergy. E On the bright side, this sub-class works right from 3rd level. All sub-classes should aspire to thiz.
An Echo Knight Rogue could be a lot of fun. The types of shenanigans you could get into with your teleport while avoiding guards would be insane. On top of that if you get spotted you can just turn yourself in, unless they kill you on the spot you’re fine since at this point all you need is line of sight and a single round to teleport out of your cell.
Im building Nerdarchy's blind master echo knight 5/wizard 4/rogue 11. But im actually going to dip 3 into Ranger because we're playing out of the abyss and my character was left for dead in the underdark with his eyes slashed out. Casting darkness on your blade and then teleporting to a space near the enemy is just busted enough to give huge bonuses to damage and crowd control
Jeremy Crawford: "The echo created by an Echo Knight doesn't have a speed, and the knight can move the echo in any direction, including into the air. The echo can hang out wherever you move it."
@@po747oEXENot quite. An Echo is able to grapple, as you can make attacks originate from it, and grappling is a type of attack. However, it cannot *maintain* the grapple, as YOU are not within reach of the grappled target.
This archetype feels a lot like what the Beast Master should have been. I do like that the abilities it gets are as powerful as if not more powerful than individual spells acquired by full casters at the same level. Spell casters are able to choose those features (spells) that they get, so it makes sense that fixed features should be at least as powerful as an equivalently leveled spell. It's just a shame that it's taken this long for a fighter archetype to get powerful spell-like abilities like this.
Idk about the best subclass but it's definitely one of the coolest flavor wise. I thought the idea was solid enough and it's decently well executed. It's also fairly easy to reflavor as Naruto style Shadow Clones or even JoJo style stands.
@@aldoushuxley5953 it depends on what you're looking for but overall I think Battlemaster is the best. But like I said, if you're looking Sharpshooter or GWM shenanigans you might like Samurai more, if you want to Gish Eldritch Knight, Champion is good if you're just dipping fighter from another class, Arcane Archer is good for a joke, PDK can support the whole team in a way most fighters can't without feats/maneuvers, Cavaliers can hold the line like no one else. Echo Knight for sure is good. Great even. But it's features kinda point towards a melee build, which is lame because fighting in melee while my echo Snipes from afar is one of the cooler images that class can conjure I think one of the greatest things about 5e is that fighters have so many distinct flavors, and even the 'worst' ones like PDK and Arcane Archer are perfectly viable, just not as good.
@@getthegoons Why do you think that Battlemaster is better? I really like Battlemasters (possibly my favorite non-Wizard class/subclass is Battlemaster), but the mobility afforded to Echo Knight just seems absolutely busted...
@@QuiescentPilot sheer versatility. Maneuvers let you do so many things well, like push, trip, Taunt, move other players around, and with UA-CFV they can sneak, ambush, grapple, shoot better, etc. Mobility is good and all but apparently you can't do anything beyond looking through it according Jeremy "I hate Fun" Crawford.
@@QuiescentPilot Not surprising. EGtW is the epitome of a "splatbook"; terribly unbalanced, several options (like this one) being WAY OP relative to core material, and full of wordings that are broken AF if Read As Written. The only way this material works is in a campaign which liberally flogs "Rule Zero". (watch Critical Role, they "rule of cool" tons of things that would never fly at most tables.) Jeremy Crawford even had to Twitter rule on the Echo because "as written" it is not possible to ever attack or target the Echo.
@@HughRGlen I mean, when they have to put out multiple clarifications and rulings withing the first 2 weeks, you know it is, as you say, a "splatbook."
It's more like infinite-ish misty step. Even with the level 7 ability, the echo has to move that 1000 feet at 5 feet per second, so 200 seconds, 3 minutes and 20 seconds, or 33/34 rounds. Just to emulate dimension door it takes 16/17 rounds. Long distance teleporting is great out of combat, where time is mostly hand waved, but irrelevant in combat, and you can dash faster than the echo could teleport you.
@@des-trina I do think a two bonus action misty step is the best comparison, in particular because this is comparing a level 3 subclass feature to a 2nd level spell. Monks don't get abundant step anymore, ever, so the out of combat utility of even a limited range teleport where you don't really need to see the destination is way up there and you can never waste it. Getting through bars, around doors, onto the other side of windows, and of course the height advantages that Chris pointed out. I feel this makes an echo knight archer a potent choice, even ignoring extra attack options and focusing just on the teleport.
@@comfortablegrey Nice for early levels, but the 2nd part doesnt really gel, monks at 9th level can scale a 180 ft wall in 6s so the out of combat utility of the echo teleport is iffy, especially because RAW you are still blind and deaf while "using the echos senses" thus dont know where exactly youll pop up if you cant see the location.
@@ANDELE3025 When I think of a teleport that can be used at will I imagine Dai Blackthorn from GURPS. Level 3 and suddenly the fighter is a master escape artist, no skill check required. A little creativity can stretch 30 feet a lot. www.scribd.com/document/337265988/Dai-Blackthorn
@@ANDELE3025 your og body is blind and deaf, not the echo. You cast echo wherever you want within 15 ft, sit down, transfer consciousness and now you can see and hear from the echo, just not your own body. So you can't have two sets of sensory information coming in at once
I think wisdom is more import for echo knights than dex because the echo will likely do a lot of scouting, so perception would come up even more than usual and be more important.
Only problem is Echoes can't take actions. They can only move, and YOUR attacks can happen in their space. So they can't make perception checks. Can't hide or interact with items either.
@@superbarukun yeah no one ever said that. If you can swing a sword or shoot an arrow through it I'm sure you can twist your hand and wrist through it to open a door or pick something up. Also it is a solid as it's stated that it occupies it's space.
The haste spell cast on you is particularly rediculous. It allows you another attack action (limited to one attack) but unleash incarnation doesnt care. Level 5 example: Base: Attack/ attack/ unleash Action surge: attack/ attack/ unleash Hasted: attack/ unleash
It actually does. You have to take the Attack Action to use Unleash. I could be wrong but I don't think Hasted Action attack doesn't trigger things that require you to take the Attack Action. But 2 Unleashes instead of 3 is still poggers.
@@superkami8618 the exact wording does specify it is an "attack action" rather than saying make a single weapon attack That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.
@@topherrobeson4446 Throw in two-weapon fighting or polearm master for a reliable bonus action attack and that's 9 attacks; a level 20 Echo Knight with 20 Constitution and Haste cast on them could do 13 attacks in one round, 12 attacks the next round, and then after using all uses of Action Surge and Unleash Incarnation could still do 6 attacks every round afterwards 😳 Get the Cleric to cast Holy Weapon on them as well and that's a crap tonne of damage!
@@gustaafargoanand the Haste spell grants you an additional Attack action - whilst limited to just one attack for the action, it still allows another use of Unleash Incarnation.
Around 19:50 you say that Shadow Martyr can take an attack for you or another creature, but the wording of the ability specifically says the attack must be "directed at another creature." Since the echo isn't a creature, "another" must be in reference to the Echo Knight themselves, so I don't think you can use this ability to take hits for yourself, only your allies. As such, it is not objectively better than the illusionist's feature, it in fact can't replicate what the illusionist's feature does.
@@SchnaKe either way, it ensures your ally doesn’t take that potentially dangerous hit. If it misses anyway, even better because now you can actively defend that ally and fight the creature attacking them if it’s in melee range
@@RhantheSlayer Or you could lose a valuable position of your echo against a high-value target (which is why your echo was there in the first place). If the enemy rolls a nat 1, you would've wasted the ability because the attack would've missed your ally anyways. The point is, the ability is nowhere as flexible as Illusory Self and shouldn't be compared as such.
The echo knight is currently my favorite subclass in the whole game, at first i was sceptical but i mean... You literally have a tag team partner. .. AND ITS YOURSELF!!!
Martial classes need to be more in line with this kind of power level in order to keep up with spell casters. After levels 5 - 7ish its really hard to match the damage, utility, and encounter ending options that spell casters have.
I mean yes but that's also, as is almost always the case l, dependent on how your group run the game and their encounters specifically, since if you do run 4 to 5 combat encounters per long rest the martial classes become a lot more appriciated again. As for out of combat utility, yeah there is little to be done there no matter what playstyle your group has.
we're a group of hero's. Our martial brethren help us by repetitively damaging the foes and focusing their vengeance . We also have limited resources : spell slots. Theirs are HP's. It's a balance that requires both to run as smoothly as possible, assuming no crazy 5 wizard parties. Oh, the parties.
Hey! I just got into watching your videos a few days ago, and I just wanted to thank you for making such awesome content! Since my school has moved to online classes and the only time I see the outside world is through going on walks, your videos have been a constant thing I watch daily and when I walk around the neighborhood! Thanks so much for all the work you put into everything! Keep up the great work! :)
I'd personally say Mountain Dwarf Ancestors Barbarian 3/Echo Knight Fighter 17 is a cool build from a flavor stance, because "My grandpa had come to say a few choice words." Also, Ranged build could be hilarious with this, using your Echo to draw enemies out before they get a nasty surprise 😂
Shoot I was just thinking of how this breaks dungeons by just sending your echo out to open chests and doors and such. It sets off all the booby traps, takes all the first round ambush damage, etc.
@@MrBracey100 Your Echo can't do any of that though. It can't open chests, and I don't think it has a weight for traps. It can maybe take first round damage, but if the enemies know about you and can recognize the Echo they'll just wait.
I want to play this with a Hobgoblin. The flavor I'm going for is his Echos are his memories of his now dead teammates from his Mercenary company, so he will always fight alongside those he cared about
Brilliant video, Chris. I literally asked our DM to delay our new campaign just so I could see your opinions on the new Wildemount classes :) I truly appreciate your in-depth and thoughtful analyses.
I think I'd go with a Dex Fighter, take a longbow for myself and have a rapier as a back up and for my echo. That way, I can send my echo in to attack, draw fire, use Sentinel, etc. and also be able to provide cover fire for my own echo with ranged attacks.
You can't do that, the echo does not have its own weapons, it is not the echo who makes the attacks, it is you BUT from your echos space, so technically you would need to be wielding a rapier for the echo attack to be a rapier, but the DM could always rule otherwise....
I've found a fun way to do this! I took the Hexblade dip and have a Dhampir character, so that I can Eldritch Blast from range (holding the Rod of the Pact Keeper) and my echo can bite.
I had a friend play this subclass in a recent lvl 20 oneshot. It was pretty great you could do a lot of damage if you solo focused on a target and I don't think he got hit at all besides from spell AOE's from what I remember, it's pretty strong and you could make it frightening if you combined it with perhaps some of the other classes in the game. In that game I played a hexblade blade pact warlock, devotion paladin, fighter, scourge aasimar (levels were 15, 4, and 1 in that order) I specialized in polearms with the tunnel fighter fighting style, polearm master feat, and great weapon master feat. In that oneshot I ended up testing balancing of the UA magic tattoos and they ended up being pretty balanced (except for the invoked eldritch claw tattoo because a 30ft attack radius with the appropriate feats is insane).
I'm DM'ing a high level game with a player that rerolled as an Echo Knight, and he's already managed to annoy the $&#% out of me with echo knight shadows. Dude was taking ten minutes on his turn to figure out his moves and actions. I've since set up a 90 battle second timer, and now I'm not nearly as pissed off as I started out. Honestly it's a cool class.
High level play be damned, there’s a lot of really cool barbarian subclasses that never see play because bear totem exists, and you’re setup to scoop some really cool abilities for a 1 more level. Ancestral guardians would be choice
Bear totem would be a bad call in my opinion, the bear is all about durability which won’t matter to you when you aren’t ever getting hit. Instead I’d recommend the Ancestral Guardian to boost your allies’ durability.
If I'm reading Ancestral Protectors correctly. it would also give disadvantage to attacks against your Echo, which is a neat bonus. That said, I think that Path of the Ancestral Guardian or the Path of the Zealot are probably the only choices worth the extra level. An extra rage per day and some extra damage/defense are nice, but probably not worth slowing down access to your feats, ASI's, more attacks, and other Echo Knight abilities.
I think it would be fine if you knew you weren't going to 18+ but the EcK 18 feature seems like something you'd want over a limited use Rage feature that under the right circumstances might provide disadvantage on a single creatures attacks. Giving up a second echo which is usable in all modes of play, and adds another target on the board in combat, in addition to the increased flexibility it adds to the other features of the subclass... That's a big sink for something like Ancestral Protectors. Not to mention the slowed progression to your Extra Attacks and second Action Surge.
I play a scourge aasimar echo knight... it's extremely fun, especially when you coordinate things with your teammates to do cool stunts and all. This subclass thrives off strategizing and teamwork, I can't stop stressing that.
Great video and really helpful. My girlfriend plays a fighter and at 3rd level didn’t know what subclass to chose, eventually deciding on Echo Knight. We played last Saturday and it was the first time she really used the ability and it really adds a lot of creativity and fun to combat.
I had actually made a variant human echo knight fighter with sentinel before seeing this about 8 months ago also my first ever class and time playing. I thought i was using it pretty well but i did not know/think of half the stuff you mentioned i could do. My DM is gonna have a heart attack now. Thank you for all this!!!
So here me out (and I could be wrong): If you were to choose to go all the way up to Level 20, and let's also assume that you would hit every attack in this scenario. You could have your 4 attacks from Level 20+ Unleash Incarnation+ Action Surge 4 attacks+ Unleash Incarnation+ Action Surge again 4 attacks+ Unleash Incarnation+ (assuming you have a method to bonus attack attack and that your Echo is already out) a Bonus Action attack from 3 locations (assuming your have 2 echos out from the Level 18 ability) totaling a potential of 16 attacks/attack chances in a single turn. This number can go even higher with the help from teammates as well if you say had a Hasted Action, which would also give you another Unleash Incarnation if your Con. modifier is high enough.
Also the sentinel plus the crusher feat on this build is great! Crusher affect happens once per turn so you can push a creature 5 feet with an opportunity Attack while also reducing their movement to 0 so if they don’t have ranged or reach attacks then they are pretty much useless till their next turn
I'm not sure this is quite as strong as it sounds. The utility of it is absolutely through the roof, no doubt, but the combat application of it seems like it might not survive contact with an actual fight. Echo's are an infinite resource, yes, but probably the best combat trick you showed off with this (using your Echo as a Sentinel so enemies can't reach you) is easy to work around even just coincidentally. The obvious one is that you still only get one reaction a round, so combats with multiple enemies can't be kept safely away most of the time. Even a single creature with Multi-attack can at least hit the echo with a single attack to kill it, then move in for the rest of the attacks on you or another party member. Enemies with AoE's can probably kill the Echo for free as part of hitting other players, and because the echo isn't a creature it doesn't cause disadvantage on ranged attack rolls like having an actual fighter up front would do. All the abilities are still really good. Heck, it could still be the best Fighter subclass, I'm just saying that I think it looks better on paper than in practice.
Yea. I was going to say sending a single enemy with 1 attack per round at a fighter is always going to be a cakewalk. Lots of classes could kite that monster in other ways. It may not be as broken as it seems on paper, but it's still top-tier. I don't think it should be allowed to fly and I'd put a generous resource cost (maybe even you lose 1 HP when you create it).
I agree. I don’t think you can ignore your AC or feel that reckless attack has no consequence. The echo can only stop one enemy per turn from approaching you using the sentinel feat. The other enemies will still be able to approach and attack as normal.
Shane Bernier 1. Any creature directing an attack at the echo is a win. If the attack hits, any extra damage over 1 hitpoint is not directed at an actual party member. Importantly, creatures also have a chance to miss, so choosing to attack the echo isn’t a guarantee to get rid of it. 2. The echo not being able to impose disadvantage on ranged attack rolls from creatures near it because it isn’t a creature makes it an invalid target for the majority of AOE spells you say it can be taken out by. It’s not in the book, but Crawford has identified the echo to be a “magical object”. 3. For the same reasons my number 2 point makes sense, the echo cant be targeted by attacks of opportunity from other creatures. OP attacks req sight, reach, and for the target to be a creature.
Better the enemy spend an attack on your echo than your party member. Any way it plays is beneficial, either you deal some extra damage, or you mitigate some damage, all for your bonus action.
i am going to subclass my barbarian into this for 3 levels. i did not realize the echo could fly, thats nuts. The potential damage is insane. Especially if your hasted.
I chose Echo on a whim and after watching this video I can't wait to see the look on my DM's face. He was already talking about how overpowered our group was. I just hit level 3 and have effectively tripled my power. This class is INSANE.
You know I kinda don't care that it's better than other fighter subclasses. I agree with the opinion that this is the power level that Fighter subclasses should be aiming for. Its strong and very fun.
i was allowed to use the echo knight in a west marches server, and i have been in love with the echo knight ever since. the rp value of having an echo work with you is amazing
There has to be a way to make a Tabaxi that kites enemies by using the echo to fire from while always staying out of threat range. Alternatively, being able to stay well hidden while attacking as an echo opens up a lot of options. Seeing through an invisible quasit familiar while hidden under complete cover and attacking as an echo is one. While sentinel is very, very nice, I think it will be the ranged builds that show the Echo Knight's power.
yes, an echo knight kobold using pack tactics and sharpshooter seems like a no brainer here. combining with gloom stalker and/or assassin for some ridiculousness. sounds like fun!
Been playing a level 3 echo knight and having a lot of fun with it. Still not sure how the character will progress, but a couple things I've been thinking: For starters my echo knight is a sentinel variant human (16str, 8 dex, 16 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha) right now who uses a greatsword and has a lance out there just in case. So yeah, pretty much like the video talks, because yes, I can definitely say Sentinel is absolutely fantastic with the echo knight. If the enemy tries to ignore you, you attack him and force him to stay, not allowing him to attack you or your party members. If he attacks the echo knight, great even if it hits, since it's always great to waste an enemy attack. Sentinel gives you just so much it should be indeed considered pretty much a must for this guy. I still haven't gotten to the GWM point (which would be next level), but I've been thinking about that level up. Does GWM gives me enough at level 4? I mean, the +10 to damage is pretty big at this point, but so is the -5 to hit. If I'm taking GWM, it means my strength is still +3, and since I don't have reckless yet, actually hitting with this property sounds kinda unlikely, and I'm not a champion, so the critical hit thing doesn't give me that much either. Wouldn't it be better to actually use that ASI for STR or CON (probably CON because of the incarnation), and then use your level 8 ASI (after the 2 barbarian levels) for GWM? Short question: What actually gives me more at level 4: GWM, CON ASI or STR ASI. Other thing: Have you thought about doing pretty much the same thing, except multiclassing into War Cleric instead of Barbarian? No reckless goodness which I think it's the best thing to get. But first cleric level will give you 3 cantrips (there's some nice options in the cleric list), 2 level 1 spell slots with access to the whole cleric spell list (divine favor and shield of faith automatically prepared) and of course, you get War Priest which allows you to attack using your bonus action (WIS modifier times per day). If you didn't have to waste your bonus action in your turn, that could mean at level 6 attack - > extra attack - > unleash incarnation attack - > war priest attack - > action surge - > attack - > extra attack - > unleash incarnation attack. You get a nice pool of 3-4 unleash incarnations per day, 1 action surge per short rest and 2 war priest attack per day (assuming 14 wisdom). With a second war cleric level you get guided strike as a channel divinity which means +10 to one hit per short rest plus of course an extra spell slot and the choice of using turn undead instead of guided strike. You might even get tempted to level 3 since that means level 2 spells. But then again, Reckless is fantastic. The advantage with the cleric is that you don't have that "wasted" level you're forced to take as a barbarian (since rage and unarmored defense gives you nothing, or an extremely situational use... like in case if you're ambush while you're unarmored). I've been pondering all these stuff going forward with the character.
I understand RAW (On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).) This rule is the same as when using sidekicks and companions almost. They can only move in the manner which it has speed. Because it is a copy of you it would only have a walking/running speed. If you had a fly speed and only if you had fly could it hover or fly. From beast master - The beast obeys your commands as best as it can. It takes its turn on your initiative. On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you).
Great analysis. I note that in your "rooftop" scenario, the enemy could just kill your Echo and move into melee range with you. Then on your next turn, you can't both bring out the Echo AND teleport to safety. Possibly a good use of Polearm Master to keep it at bay? Then on your next turn you can drop your Echo, leave without having to disengage, attack through your Echo, and start it all over again. Separate question: what magic items would you love love love for an Echo Knight? I want to know what to put on my wishlist...
I made a multiclass with the Echo. I did 3 levels echo night, and 17 levels as a Bladesinger wizard. It worked really well and mitigated the Bladesinger squishiness.
Yes. I was min maxed. So I took Resilient (Constitution) for concentration checks and Elven Accuracy. My ending ability Scores with point buy were as follows. 8 Strength 20 Dexterity 16 Constitution 20 Intelligence 8 Wisdom 8 Charisma
I'd really love an update on this with considerations of all the new content released in the last year. Maybe even with a consideration of a Hexblade multiclass discussion using the Fey Touched/Shadow Touched Feats to build a Fighter with some extra flavor and the Echo features.
Btw you should keep in mind that it would take you roughly 34 of your turns to reach 1000ft for you to teleport at that range which while being only 3 minutes and 24 seconds is still a decent amount of time turn wise while a character with dimension door only needs 6 seconds can teleport a second person 500 ft with just needing to either be able to see the place they're going or remember what it looks like
Just came down to see if everyone else was making the Naruto shadow-clone + substitution connection. However, I do now want to ask, is this how we "fix" fighters, by giving them a few magical abilities but without the restrictions? So you can bundle a collection of thematically appropriate abilities together e.g. Sub Zero can cast an ice-blast to immobilise his opponent, use it to create a grease-like effect/difficult terrain that increases his movement, use a reaction to create an ice-clone to take an attack for him and is immune to ice damage + resistant to fire, oh yeah and he can summon ice weapons. Should WotC just give up and make everyone magic as they did in 4E or do we really like the fact that some classes & subclasses are just better or worse?
Magical flavor isn't necessary for power. It's only a matter of tuning numbers in the end - echo knight still pales in comparison to any caster in utility.
Even with all the utility, in 90% of cases(cookie-cutter combat), Battle Master is still far and away a better class than echo knight. The class has gimmicks, highlighted in this video in a complete vacuum. Can they be good? Absolutely. Will they? That really depends on the gap between your creativity and the DM's. The inclusion of magic where it doesn't fit will always highlight a lot of utility which is usually offset from primary role capability. As a CBE/SS fighter, I'd never take Echo Knight over Battlemaster or even Champion. I probably wouldn't take it as a GWM fighter, either(Samurai is so much better for the build). This subclass is almost exclusively designed to make PaM/Sentinel fighters exponentially more flexible, which means you're basically supporting the rest of the party, anyway. Echo Knights will very likely generate a cool, ass-saving highlight reel across an 80+ session campaign, but they're not broken by any means. Oddly enough, I'd compare the subclass to bards/control("God") wizards/the odd cleric divine intervention: When shit goes fanword and everything's on the line, the PC can pull some nonsense to potentially save the campaign if they're smart, creative and desperate enough while still having resources at their disposal. Honestly, the video doesn't even cover the most broken aspect of the echo: There's no limitations on what it can carry nor what it can interact with. Magic user captured? Fly up 400 feet to the 7th floor of the rape tower dungeon and drop an arcane focus through the window grates. Bunch of gnolls hunkered down in a cave? Walk your echo in, strapped to the teeth with pouches of gunpowder+a flint and you too can get your 72 virgins. Need to sweep for traps? It technically occupies a space and therefore can interact with the environment(trigger traps) and clear the way. I also disagree with Treant's assessment. I think V-H is only good for a low-to-mid-tier campaigns(and even then can be a matter of debate). Fighters get a TON of ASIs/Feats, especially in the later levels(12/14/16) where you've already picked up the most important bits to your build. Depending on campaign and rules, there are much better races for this class. Either half-elf if your campaign uses flanking rules(Your echo could technically be considered an "ally" for giving your PC-Prime advantage) or kobold since pack tactics only requires an "ally" be within 5 feet of your target. Echo Fighter is a highly mobile, master of none subclass that /can/ be broken depending on DM rulings. It's basically a fighter dipping monk or rogue/starting high-elf(Fey Teleportation) with earlier ASIs/not picking a shitty race for the class. If you want maximum, reality-bending utility: just play any wizard/sorcerer. If you want to punch things in the face(without getting bored because fuck champion): play a battle master fighter. If you want to do both, just play a bard. Anyone that doesn't play a bard isn't optimizing hard enough. They're literally /that/ good at nearly everything. If your goal for playing 5E is to treat the game as a single player game by replacing romance options with occasionally sitting back to let his NPCompanions bicker, Bard is the class for you.
If your Echo Knight has access to the Booming Blade cantrip and you're considering taking Sentinel, I recommend taking War Caster instead and using BB as your go-to opportunity attack when using the 3rd benefit of Manifest Echo. It sort of accomplishes the same thing but makes it more interesting by allowing the target to move if it wants at the cost of taking some damage. Plus the additional benefits from War Caster might help you out more than Sentinel's other 2 benefits (since you can't use the latter through the Echo).
My Eldritch Echo Knight is rapidly becoming my favorite character She’s a tiny Moon Elf with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and a magic halbert - scary good at individual combat
I am playing my first ever dnd Campaign and just 2 days ago i got to level 3 . I can't wait to see how much is echo effective in fight and roleplay. This is going to be good
I immediately thought of Dishonored on seeing the subclass's description. Teleports, a pseudo flying ability, shadow clones to keep attention off of yourself, etc. This is Corvo in D&D! Which is pretty neat.
What if you have 20 con and you are level 20 echo knight? Is it correct that with action surge, in a single turn, you have 8 attacks + 1 bonus attack+ 5 attacks from your echo= 14 attacks ?
Lv20 Echo Knight (Before your turn) Opportunity Attack. (At the start of your turn and refreshed Reaction Action.) Attack Action + 3x Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnate 1x + Action Surge + Attack Action + 3x Extra Attack + Unleash Incarnate 1x + Bonus Action Attack. (Reaction) Opportunity Attack. Repeat... 11x (with Bonus Action) attacks per turn with 2x Opportunity Attacks. One OA before and another OA after the start of your turn. Repeat this up to your Con Mod+. Just be carful when using Ranged Weapons like Bows and Crossbows, and with Spells. "Throw" weapons don't follow the same limitations of Ranged Weapons and if your Echo throws a Trident. Then, treat that thrown Trident as a "echo weapon" because it is not your actual weapon being thrown. The same is said for Bolts and Arrows (ammunition). For Magical Weapons... The condition of "this effect comes from you" cannot be used by the Echo. Outside of this, you can use Magic Weapons through the Echo in the same way as you would use any other weapon. However, if your Magic Item has Charges/Uses, then unlike ammunition and thrown weapons. If it is a Spell or a Charge/Use that requires Cast Time, then your Echo cannot be accessed for this type of attack. However, if the magical effect is passive/innate, like a Fire Sword, then that magical effect applies. If the magic effect launches a projectile per attack from the weapon, then, if there is no Cast Time, the Echo can be accessed for this type of attack. Remember that the Echo is always in the form you're currently in and is using the weapons (or unarmed combat) that you're currently holding in both hands.
This is awesome! I’m doing a pirate echo knight for our curse of strahd campaign right now. We just finished death house so I gor my level three and I cant wait to start using all these bad ass abilities
Even with the sage advice from Jeremy "I make up(usually very stupid, anti-player house rules) shit on the fly" Crawford, this subclass is going to create a lot of headaches for new DMs across the globe. I'd advice anyone looking at this subclass to literally babysit your DM through all the fuckery you can do with your echo. Nothing generates a more toxic environment to the game than bad communication and actively one-upping he-who-controls-all because he doesn't understand the limitations and capacity of your character. Do yourselves a favor: If you pick echo knight and the DM greenlights it, expect to spend an hour or two laying out your gimmicks to the DM. If for nothing else than to avoid the "Dragon breath kills you, dragon flaps its wings and your worthless ass is scattered to the winds. No passing go, no resurrection - I don't want to deal with this character anymore" shenanigans.
I feel like RAI the echo is meant to he another possible path in battle you could have taken, so I would limit its movement ability to those that the player has. No flying if the player doesn't have innate flying speed. This makes much of what you saw as super powerful much more reasonable. Still a good subclass though
I've got an echo knight multiclassed with gloom stalker ranger, and it's great. At 5 echo knight 3 gloom stalker I can take 8 attacks in the first round of combat using action surge, dread ambusher, and unleash incarnation. The gloom stalker dip also gives me hunters mark, absorb elements, and a bit of aoe in hail of thorns. I was also able to pick up defense and great weapon master styles. It's a very MAD build, but it synergizes well.
I don't think I can agree that this subclass is better than the others for the following reasons. 1: You have completely locked down for your bonus action for echo creation and teleports. A build with CBE or PAM are two of the most powerful builds, and they synergise terribly with echo knight. 2: their extra attack is long rest dependant. I ask myself would I rather have 3/4 extra attacks per long rest, or 12 superiority dice(assuming 2 long rests). I would choose the superiority dice every time. 3. The attacks of opportunity are nice with the echo, but realistically you'll only get 1/2 extra per battle. One of the enemies will just devote an attack to taking it out worst scenario. Now this is powerful, but I don't think it's super powerful. This ability really shines in single monster encounters where they do few, but powerful attacks. 3: The teleporting ability is nice, but it takes a bonus action, so you can't use it the same turn you create an echo. And it doesn't actually help end an encounter in the same way extra damage or spells do. Also I don't think it's super useful in most encounters. Most encounters take place underground or in very closed spaces.
It should be worth noting that if you MC into barbarian, that you cannot rage while wearing heavy armor, which means you’re either sacrificing 2 AC if you use medium armor and still dump Dex (not a huge deal if you fight primarily trough your echoes), or you basically waste your first level into barbarian.
13:00 in this scenario, 1) I would definitely rule that the real echo knight must be able to see the enemy their echo is attacking (since a later ability explicitly grants you the ability to sense through the echo), 2) the enemy can destroy the echo **and then move** toward you, most likely getting up to your face. If you have to manifest another echo, that takes a bonus action, and teleporting also takes a bonus action, so you can't do them both in one turn. Therefore, if the enemy gets in your face, you either have to run (provoking an AoO), or stay put and get attacked by the enemy on its next turn. The echo also doesn't look like the knight - it's translucent and gray, so any monster with 1) a reasonable level of intelligence, and 2) knowledge of the game world in which these sorts of knights exist, won't waste time attacking the echo. This is a broken rule: "You can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 ft. in any direction (no action required)" So, as written, you can move the echo up to infinity feet, because there's no action required. They probably mean "You can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 ft. in any direction once on your turn (no action required)"
Polearm Master with a reach weapon and sentinel would be a nightmare for battlefield control with echo knight. Would almost guarantee an opportunity attack each round, reducing speed to 0. You can teleport around AND have reach. Wild
The 1,000 teleport is not as advantageous as most people think. You are only able to move it 30ft a round no action required, so there is no way to double its movement. So move that thousand feet you need 34 rounds to do so that is almost three and half minutes for 1000ft teleport. It would be useful for get over chasms or up cliffs. But there would be better options to do so. And smart creature encounters will begin to hold their attack action till the Echo is in combat range to make it disappear, then on it's turn do it normal round of attacks while the Echo Knight is hung out to dry, as much as a well armored, high hit point character can be left out to dry. But it will eat up the Creatures action economy very quickly. I like the shenanigans' of the short distance teleport though for utility.
Pro flavor move have a third lv for barbarian for ancestral guardians (how I'd flavor it would be that you have full control over your shadow and can split it into multiple pieces 1 for offense and the rest for defense) now you have resistance to bludgeoning slashing and piercing against all attacks while your allies have resistance against all damage from the enemy being dragged down by your shadow (also if you go with the controllable shadow flavor it moving around as flattening to the ground and zipping to where it's told to go like how shadows move) also btw the main reason why I say you should just take the 3rd lv in barbarian is because usually unless you're doing a lv 20 one shot you probably won't get to lv 20 so it's better to plan for not doing that than to not get to there and be disappointed
i was planning on having a druid in my campaign obtain a companion from the shadowfell at around lvl 12. It was going to be a shadow (inspired by Peter Pan). This echo has some similar features that i came up with...pretty cool. I decided the switch places as a bonus action ability was too OP and made it an action for the shadow companion i created though.
I just had a thought about how to make this an insane switch-hitter (Note, am only 14 and a half minutes in so I don't know if he said this already): So, you make a High Dex Fighter, maybe a Goblin (+2 Dex +1 Con, being Small and having that occasional extra damage) or an Elf (Shadar-Kai for both +2 Dex +1 Con and a little extra flavor with even more teleporting), and you have your Echo "wield" your Rapier while you have a Longbow (or Crossbow Expert with Hand Crossbow, or even Pistol or Musket if that's allowed); now your Echo is an expendable Melee hitter as before, but you can also snipe things with your ranged weapon as well, and still be entirely effective when the Echo drops; you don't even have to target what the Echo is, because you're a Ranged Fighter. This seems like an entirely delicious setup.
You would have to be wielding the weapon yourself for the Echo to use it, but a 2 level dip into Artificer for Repeating Shot would let you have a usable rapier and hand crossbow out at all times.
Any attack the echo knight makes has to be with the weapon you are holding. You make the attack from its location. It’s not a summoned creature, it’s more of a portal for you to hit things through.
Probably work out quite well with the UA Thrown Weapon Fighting Style using melee weapons with the thrown property so you can always have both ranged and melee attacks on hand. Problem with the single-handed melee weapon plus hand crossbow combo is that you still need a free hand to load ammunition, so the only way to keep up with action economy is to buy/obtain multiple hand crossbows, preload them outside of battle, and then drop the hand crossbow and draw another each time you fire one, and hand crossbows cost a lot of gold pieces. And that'll only hold up so well and become obsolete at level 11 for a Fighter, since you can only perform one free-action "draw a weapon" action on each of your turns.
I know I am a year late, but @12:00 I think u cannot summon it (bonus action) and teleport/swap (bonus action) in the same turn. Unless u walk with ur clone through the city 24/7
The biggest hang up on your utility and battle tactics for the echo that messes up your plan is that it takes a bonus action to create an echo and a bonus action to swap with it. Your narrative at 13:30 is incorrect because it would take 2 turns to do that maneuver where you create an echo and swap. Unless the echo is alive at the start of your turn, swapping takes 2 turns not a single turn.
I've watch this video many many times. I love this subclass, video and the ideas that spring to mind. We're basically Nightcrawler. If this is infinite, can't we use this to travel a lot faster? How would we calculate distance long treks. Between towns for instance?
Two things to point out: The Echo doesn't have reach; and the Illusionist Wizard's illusory self is pretty much always used to negate crits but the comparable Echo Knight ability doesn't do that. Love your analysis, thanks for your tremendous insights!
The echo says within 5' of your echo if an enemy moves away, you get an opportunity attack. Polearm master allows you to get that opportunity when they enter your reach. You assume you can do things with echo avatar that don't state it can do, but not allow things obviously you can!
This is one of those times where I'm like "I'm glad there's a good pure martial class, but also kinda wish all the good pure martial classes didn't basically have non-spellslot magic"
I love what they were trying to do (for the right kind of campaign) but this has convinced me that it's too good without limits. I think one good limit would be to require Echo creation to cause damage to the user, say TierXd6 necrotic. You have to give a bit of your life to make it happen. That would really help cut down on the abusive use of the Echo. An alternative would be to allow Echo creation to be free but require some cost for using the Echo, say D4 per attack made through the echo. Again, I don't have the numbers worked out, but the general idea really cuts down on abuse.
Not a good idea, given multiclassing and other sub classes at lv12 to lv20. RAW... The Echo is "nothing". RAI... The Echo is an Object. Along with many conflicting rules vs logic that this class runs into in regard to the Echo itself. But to cut down and to avoid creating extra rules for this class... (1) The Echo is an Object. Keep its resistances to IPS Physical Damage, to Psionic Damage, and to Poison Damage (all physical base). But allow Magic/Spells (and elemental magic) to damage/target it. (2) Cut down the 1k ft range to "15ft + Your Base Move ft × Your Positive Con Modifer, if any". (3) Only allow your Echo to perform the second effect of that 3rd Level Sub Class feature. As for the Bonus Action stuff... Remember that the Echo is an Object of 0 lb. Enemies can pick the Echo up (do not perform the Grab Attack Action) then walk 30 ft + Dash 30 ft away with ease. The Echo Knight is sacrificing their Bonus Action in order to Manifest up to 2x Echos at once, or to switch teleport with one Echo. Meaning, multiple enemies and an enemy with multi attack can shut the Echo Knight down... Just keep in mind of the other players. Although, the Echo is not a Spell. It is still Magic base, so you can cast Dispel Magic (not Counter Spell or maybe???) on the Echo. Provided, that the DM allows Spells to also target Objects as well as Creatures.
The only issue with barbarian and echo knight, is barbarian rage goes away if you spend a round not attacking or getting hit. You aren't technically the one attacking or getting hit, your echo knight is, and I could see a DM making the argument you would lose your rage fairly quickly if you yourself didn't get in the fray.
Um... the fact that you can move the echo in any direction does not mean that it will "stay" in that place (it can still fall if it is in mid-air), but that is of course for the DM to decide ^^
This is so interesting to me, as you are one of MANY people to suggest that an echo cannot hover in place. I'm guessing it's because this effect appears as a humanoid. When I talk about Bigby's Hand flying around, nobody ever tells me that it should fall.
@@koimeone3707 Absolutely, and when you are a DM that is something to consider, and not just what's fun for the Echo Knight player, but if it will have an impact on everyone else's fun. Echo Knight is one of those subclasses that could potentially steal the limelight, and that's not something you want at your table.
This video assumes that the echo inherits all of your traits. It does not, it acts as a summon and can only move and attack. The teleport and infinite summons though are strong. The solution for dms is more enemies to target the echo or like a magic missile.
do you mean about the sentinel trick against a single enemy? if so, the echo doesn't need to inherit your traits - "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature AS IF YOU WERE IN THE ECHO'S SPACE." (sorry about the caps that seem passive-aggressive or condescending, I don't think I can bold anymore so I had to make do) In this event it's not that you use your reaction to make your echo make an opportunity attack, you actually get to magically deliver that opportunity attack yourself despite your own positioning. Sorry if this isn't what you were referring to.
Based on the RAW, this allows a fighter's already very good nova (burst damage in one turn) to be even more improved because the *Unleash Incarnation* states that you can attack one extra time when you take the *Attack* action that means that you can get two extra attacks if you Action Surge (since you are taking two *Attack* actions). That is a lot of extra damage on top of the already very high damage that an Action Surge Fighter brings.
I don’t think it’s any more game breaking than something like moon Druid. I feel like a lot of the cheese can be fixed by having monsters with multi attack or more caster enemies that can target both..... hell even ranged enemies by round 2 would probably know where the echo’e are coming from and focus the fighter
kyle rodriguez I mean, the Moon Druid is the definition of game-breaking; comparing other things to it isn’t a valid method of saying that something is not game-breaking.
@@QuiescentPilot Don't forget that there is DM who controls the whole adventure. Moon Druid and Echo Knight are totally different kinds of "game-breaking". Moon Druid is OP only because of large numbers of additional hp. DM can't do anything about it without just increasing monsters' damage and in that case, other party members will have problems. Echo Knight is a totally different case. It can't deal crazy amounts of damage, and it doesn't have some crazy survivability. All it brings on the table is utility, and it can be pretty easily countered, even without "DM does everything to counter my character" impression. Give enemy more attacks while lowering the damage of each, so they would have the possibility to destroy Echo. Add more smaller enemies to encounter so they would easily overcome "one reaction per round" limitation. Give them ranged attacks and spellcasting, so they would be able to just ignore echo and attack the fighter or other party members. Echo Knight is strong, yes, but I don't think it's game-breaking.
Maybe I’m in the minority, but personally the Echo Knight flavor does not resonante with me at all. And yes it can do some interesting stuff, but it’s not clear to me that it is the best. To me optimized Fighters generally boil down to two functional archetypes - the DPR Tank and the DPR Focus Fire. For the DPR Focus Fire, Battlemaster is still king. For the DPR Tank, both EK and BM have builds that I think is similar in power to Echo Knight. And if we are throwing in a two level multiclass, then I think it’s not even close and Eldritch Knight Hexblade is the best hands down. So really that leaves utility. And I admit the teleporting is pretty sweet, but the 1000 ft use is basically just a glorified Familiar (especially given the Twitter RAI). And as with all things utility, YMMV greatly depending on the campaign.
Fabian I’m referring to the specific build of EK 7+ Hexblade 2+, Polearm Master+Warcaster+Crossbow Expert, Agonizing+Repelling Blast. Use an arcane focus staff with shield, and any time an enemy comes with 5ft, PAM triggers an opportunity attack, which triggers Warcaster, which you use to cast Eldritch Blast to repel the target and reset the combo. Crossbow Expert is there to allow you to EB into melee without disadvantage. Then on your turn you can EB+WarMagic for a ton of at-will damage, as well as repel more targets. I call this build the Eldritch Forcelance and I have a full breakdown in the Treantmonk discord if you’re interested.
M0ebius nah i’m good, i don’t tend to powergame in dnd beyond the basic stuff like taking eldritch smite or using a race with a +2 in the primary stat(and even then it’s only if i actually like the race still) so i don’t care much to try the build, thanks though. I was mostly just curious because the hexblade features themselves technically didn’t seem add anything, and i mean after you explained it seems like i was right, though warlock itself does add something. I assume you just specified hexblade as it’s generally the best warlock subclass to dip into as a dps.
Fabian No, Hexblade is needed because you need Hex Warrior to fight with PAM+Arcane Focus Staff with Charisma. It also gives you the Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile combo. Without nerding out on the details, it’s a pretty comprehensive build with a lot of nuances, of which the PAM+Warcaster+CBE is just one part specifically related with tanking.
The TLDR of the video: Echo knight means you can apply sentinel to whats effectively low range ranged weapons/gives melee weapons the range of 30/60 in one direction instead of not caring for enemy placement as long as its in range but requiring thrown property (or dropping weapon dice to 1d4~1d6) and picking it up. Also 15:48 - Remember tho for reach weapons, they dont increase the Echos AoO range, 17:14 - RAW Avatar is actually the opposite of powerful, as it doesnt define that only the senses of your body are blinded and deafened (unlike sight through familiars or similar features) and 28:14 - remember, echo lets you attack from its place but all other rules for attacks still apply, so in most of the prior example cases where the real character doesnt have sight on the target, recklesss would be there to negate disadvantage instead of grant advantage.
Essentially granting an unlimited teleport is insane. Also worth considering is that 1hp doesn't really matter cause it's unlimited use. Even in a 3 round combat that's 3 hits it could potentially tank for the party. You can spawn it and make all your attacks on your turn, even into situations where it'd be surrounded, make all your attacks and then you either get the free opportunity attack if they ignore it or waste their attack.
According to what you said the echo can move freely, even upwards. How would this work with a Simic Hybrid's Manta Glide? Can I move the echo 45ft up, switch places with it and add 90ft of flight to my character, besides the movement that he already used this turn? "Manta Glide (1st level). You have ray-like fins that you use as wings to slow your fall or allow you to glide. When you fall and are not incapacitated, you can subtract up to 100 feet from your fall when calculating your fall damage and can move horizontally 2 feet for every 1 foot you fall." Sorry for my bad English, I really like your videos. :)
echo can't be more than 30ft from you in all directions, so you could summon it 15 ft away, more it another 15ft straight up to take it to max 30ft range, switch and glide
@@nekospaw The echo knight says only that it is destroyed if it's more than 30 feet from you at the END OF YOUR TURN. Not any time it's more than 30 feet away. If it's currently within 30 feet when your turn starts, you can move it another 30 feet during your turn, to upwards of 60 feet away, then switch places with it before the turn ends, then it is destroyed when your turn ends.
In my friends game i took the misty visions eldritch invocation as my var human feat, and in my backstory its explained that my character was a thief (im doing a dex build cause i prefer scoundrel archetypes to strongmen and i'm a rogue stan) and stole a cursed magic item which was a misty eye shaped orb. The magic item literally swapped places with my characters right eye. Though it gives nauseating headaches at times (requiring him to wear an eyepatch when not using it) it allows him to see mists all around and he can focus on the mists to shape them into illusions (the silent image spell) and if done correctly it lets him manifest echos of himself. I thought it was a really unique way of reflavoring it. Calling it the "illusion swordsman" build. I also was able to get that feat that gives invisibility once per day and those magic boots that make footsteps silent so I can stealth insanely well since i cant be seen or heard.
Reading how the language is used for "move in any direction" they usually specify explicitly if that includes moving upwards. Also, unless it has a fly speed, it's safe to assume that the echo can fall after making it's movement.
The echo has no movement, it is an object you can move, so if you say "go there and stay", it will, as long as the space is not occupied it can stay midair forever.
Yes. The wording says "any attack roll that _isn’t against you_ ," rather than specifying "any attack roll against a _creature_ other than you" or something to that effect which would disqualify the echo because it's not a creature.
Isn't it a bit disingenuous to include vertical axis into the echos movement but not when calculating distance? Is this suported in any way? This is 2 years by now but a few googles didn't net any results.
It wouldn't fly at our table. Vertical movement is counted. Otherwise my monk could run over any size wall or building and still have movement to spare
Shadow martyr says very specifically that if another creature is attacked, you keep inserted that it say another creature or you. I take this power to be used only on others. If im going by whats written!
